What is chi, to you?

[Martial Joe]

Well...

[Xebsball]

Basicly, genericly and definetively -> energy, my friend

[Shadow Dragon]

Chi = a way of explaing things that happen in the human body for which TCMA has no clear terminology.

[joedoe]

Life force.

[S.Teebas]

Stuff.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Intrinsic energy- the way how the body works energetically for which western civilisation has no clear terminology.

[Former castleva]

Chi in case of western medicine/modern medicine chi could be considered "bioelectricity" I think,TCM could use that too though.
Basically energy,even if you would not believe in it you could still benefit from using it as a metaphor etc.

[Liokault]

Chi is 2 things....2 interrelated things.


On one level its a way fot fake kung fu/. chi kung teachers to cash in on the gulability of "students".

And on the second level its a way of stooooopid students to fill gap in their half lives that they are to scared to fill with real hard work.

[Repulsive Monkey]

How long Liokault did you study with a Chi orientated teacher and then decide that it was all rubbish? I take it you have come to this decision in a balanced way using such tools as reason and logic?

[Souljah]

my view is very similar to Former castlevas.

And Liokault is a fool for being so nieve

[Liokault]

How long Liokault did you study with a Chi orientated teacher and then decide that it was all rubbish? I take it you have come to this decision in a balanced way using such tools as reason and logic?


I have trained with my teacher for over a edecade and he is the type who will not express a preferance either way about chi.....just lets you make up your own mind.

I am sure that he could have made a lot more money by talking about chi and saying how powerfull it is instead of just putting people in situations where they will sweat and bleed for years.

My own opinion comes from talking to a huge range of tai chi peopke over 13 or so years.....none of whom could convince me or even offer vague evidance for chi. Oh and my above post manly comes from other very similar threads on chi.

[Repulsive Monkey]

So all your knowledge doesn't come from experience it comes from hearsay? Don't you think its a little one sided to make those comments or hold those believes without actually studying for a while with someone who claims to be able to provide Qi experiences? Call me wrong but it even by most western scientific minds be deemed as logical and conclusive to do so, so why do you feel cold towards a topic which you do not care to get involved in?
Not wanting to raise your ire or anything, just genuinely interested Liokault!

[yenhoi]

Chi is sevenstars left elbow.

I havent had the pleasure of the right, yet.

[neptunesfall]

the focus of the will and intent, respiration, nervous system, metabolism, superior mind-body connection.

[Liokault]

Ok I have expressed my view on chi on countless threads and even put up an ironic sig but here goes again.



repulsive

Over the years I have met and even trained with many people who have told me they belive in chi. Some have told me they could do variouse "tricks" with chi (Tricks is my word not theres).

Not one of the "tricks" was impressive and there was not one that could not be done buy a guy sat in a pub.

So why am i going to go and devote my time to learning from these clearly bogus guys?

When I met my Tai Chi teacher he could de,onstraight his art from day one in clear terms i.e throwing me round with very little effort as could some of his students. I am not about to waist my time with any half assed magician. Now if you want to do so thats up to you and maybe if you tslk your self into it you can belive that your notwaisting your time.





ok the other thing about peoples belife in chi is that it is somthing differant to every individual.



So to me if it can not be deffined as one thing then its nothing......and it definatly can not be used to push people over with out toutching them.





Ok now my question.

How many of you chi belivers think that chi can be projected and used to manipulat of push an object/person with out totching it/them?

[guohuen]

Chi is my second cousin on my Mothers' side.

Sorry, I'll shut up and go away now.

[Sho]

Chi is beyond words and beyond understanding. Words may be used to speak of it, but they cannot contain it.

[KC Elbows]

At the level I'm at, it's a functional definition. When my opponent and I are in contact, like when one of us has bridged, If I try to determine where he's going by watching, all I'll see if him hitting me. Therefore, in order to save time, I will feel for the kinetic ENERGY of him moving, the direction and speed. This is faster than sight, because I can feel this before he has visibly moved. Therefore, I have bought myself time, and more time means more opportunities to command the rhythm of the fight.

Now, there are places that it is easier to feel the kinetic energy of my oponent's motion from, and places on me where I shouldn't make contact because I can't feel as well. For instance, I should be careful not to block with my wrist, as sensitivity on my wrist(i.e. nerves feeling) is not as good as on the bridge of my arm. I do not think of these places in relation to meridians and cavities while doing this, I just use them to my advantage.

In addition, if I feel a lot of kinetic energy from my opponent, then I may be able to use that energy by moving in the direction that it leads, but adding onto it from my own resources so that I finish moving before my opponent, even though my opponent started first, and of course, I end the movement with an attack or dominating manuever of some sort. I do not think of it in terms of blocking his or her meridians/chi flow, I just collapse them where their structure is vulnerable.

I do not concern myself overly much with the source of the kinetic energy. I can sometimes feel when my energy(kinetic) or my classmates' is in a poor direction or lazy or overly strained from bad structure(again, bad direction). But, once it is done effectively, I do not concern myself with whether there is energy pouring out of their spleen or some such thing. I just feel for that energy, understand its intent, and find resolution.

As far as health, it is similar. When I am in good health, and I do chi kung, it makes me mindful of my posture in great detail. When I am properly aligned, and my tendons and muscles are not tight, kinetic energy can flow from point A to point B smoothly and without hitch. When there is something preventing me from good body mechanics, I do not concern myself with whether energy is becoming trapped there and stagnating. I merely solve the difficulty and move more smoothly.

All of the exercizes I have that are supposed to be advanced chi kung appear to have the same effect, i.e. enabling me to move freely in a deeper sense. Freed movement frees my mind from having to worry about that movement. Freed mind enables me to move to the next step, etc.

[Ford Prefect]

Liokault,

I've pushed people over without touching them with anything but my chi. I've also changed traffic lights with it.

[SevenStar]

my left elbow.


to me, it's body mechanics. However, one day several months ago, someone in the KFO chat room posed a theory that chi is metabolism, and he had a pretty **** good reasoning behind it, if I remember right. I think it was goktimus, but I can't remember. Was anyone else there, or can anyone explain how chi = metabolism?

[yenhoi]

"Chi" is everything.

Quote Lik:

So to me if it can not be deffined as one thing then its nothing......and it definatly can not be used to push people over with out toutching them.


--

You cant use chi. And your correct, it is nothing.

[Leonidas]

Everybody read this. Really good stuff.

Is an alternative view of cma internal training in laymens terms with no references to chi or anything else mystical or unexplainable.

The address: http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-pom1.html

Oh yea, it is kinda long and it's really about zhan zhuang but its relevant to what everyone is talking about. Easy to understand explaination for seemingly magical feats of strength.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by SevenStar
my left elbow.


to me, it's body mechanics. However, one day several months ago, someone in the KFO chat room posed a theory that chi is metabolism, and he had a pretty **** good reasoning behind it, if I remember right. I think it was goktimus, but I can't remember. Was anyone else there, or can anyone explain how chi = metabolism?

Yes it was Goktimus. However his theory had some holes in it. His theory was that chi was the product of the activity of mitochondria. However that theory would suggest that you can produce more chi by speeding up your metabolism.

I believe someone who happened to be a professional biologist hopped on and pointed out the deficiencies in his argument. As I am not trained in biology, I don't know much about the subject so I had to take the argument at face value.

[Shadow Dragon]

How many of you chi belivers think that chi can be projected and used to manipulat of push an object/person with out totching it/them?

None, that I know off.

WHY? Because what you think "Chi" is not what it really is, but simply a sharlatans and frauds usage of the term.

Cheers.

[Martial Joe]

Alright heres my say...


In my school we use the word energy, but anyway...

It just seems to be the way you use your body without brute strength.

[taijiquan_student]

For me qi is very real. It's not some undefinable, fluffy "energy of the universe" kind of thing. Of course I don't really know what it is, but everyday I work with it and feel it.
I don't agree with the "qi is body-mechanics" argument. I am no master, so needless to say I'm not always "on". Sometimes I can feel my body (mostly my limbs) is full, it feels like I'm attached to an electric generator or something, and my arms feel like they are much bigger than they really are. When I feel like this in practice, my structure is a lot more effective and strong than I expect it to be. Sometimes when I feel "off" I can feel my body-mechanics are the same as they always are, but the qi that fills me up is missing. It's a really really big difference in feeling and power.

It is not a question for me whether or not qi is real or more than just body mechanics or being relaxed.

[MightyB]

Liokault is right. Actually, a lot of you guys are posting some of the most realistic chi descriptions that I've seen on KFO.

Liokault is describing what happens when you see real Chi. You see real chi, then you know BS when you see it.

Most Chi Kung isn't real and the practitioners are fooling themselves.

I like to call them "Chinese Strong Men". They're the same as the old Circus strong men from the early 1900's. They perform the same tricks yet everybody agrees that the strongman act was just an act. How many times do you have to see physics professors with no prior MA training performing the same "miracles" as "Chi Kung masters" before you realize that it's just tricks based on real physics?

Most Chi Kung teachers and practitioners aren't deliberately trying to deceive you because they really believe in the $hit. They've conditioned themselves to believe it and are too afraid to question it. Yet, when you ask them for a real MA application of their chi against somebody who isn't from their school, they can't do it. Within their school and with their own students, they can do it no problem (I'm talking about things like no-contact knockdowns). That's because the students conditioned themselves to take a dive, and, in their minds, they felt something.

Real Chi is Real just like real TCM is real and is mostly grounded in reality. When you see it, you know it, and then you will never be deceived by the fake stuff.

[dezhen2001]

mighty B agreed :)

Real Chi is Real just like real TCM is real and is mostly grounded in reality. When you see it, you know it, and then you will never be deceived by the fake stuff

for example: when i first saw a hard qigong demonstration i was like wow AMAZiNG! people getting hit and not even flinching etc. But now i am doing the training (not so good yet), i can see how much d@mn hard work has to go in to training and THEN you can do these things... of course some ppl use tricks however.

But now i know when i see the demonstrations of skill and things that the most impressive LOOKING are not always the most impressive skill, which is how charlatans work. Now when i see some things at demonstrations or whatever i don't even bat an eyelid. more like: "oh another guy breaking slate tiles on his body... shame they break on their own weight when u move them anyway..." (if anyone has ever worked as a roofer u know what i mean :D).

As for what Qi is, i'm not sure... All i can say is u an see in someones eyes and attitude if they have real skill or not. that's what i have experienced anyway. Also i know form my own training that sometimes my attitude is different when training hard (instead of being lazy like now). Kinda like taijiquan_student said.

just mho,
dawood

[Helicopter]

At the moment I haven't been convinced of the existance of Chi, I have felt some of the efffects that might be described as chi. All of which could be explained more rationally.

But for me Chi is (at least) a very useful metaphor which helps you get your **** together.

Using the 'Chi' allows you to treat the body holistically, so that you no longer have to concetrate on disparate elements like your limbs, your breathing, your balance, your hormones. You just have to direct your Chi.

Regulating breathing and visualization are a large part of Chi gung and hypnosis. So if Chi gung is a form of self-hypnosis, then why not? No-one can deny the huge effect the mind can have on the body.

[Liokault]

MightyB




Liokault is right. Actually, a lot of you guys are posting some of the most realistic chi descriptions that I've seen on KFO.



Wow i think this is the first time anyone ever thought i was right on this forum!!!!!

Listen to this guy hes smart:D

[Ryu]

"Qi" is loosely translated literally into "air" isn't it?

The Chinese I hang out with sometimes refer to the word, but translate it as "air."

Ryu

[MightyB]

Helicopter has another excellent example of chi, and he's right, golfers use self hypnosis, so it's no big deal if a MA uses it too.

William Cheung wrote extensively about real chi and spent a great deal of time debunking frauds when he was younger. People that are interested in chi should research some of his writings.

Ryu, I always understood it to mean "breath", but "air" is correct too.

I always question faith healers. Real Chi and real TCM don't perform miracles. TCM and Chi Gung is a qualitative/holistic approach to health. It's preventative and builds over time. Western medicine treats an illness where chi kung and TCM have you adopt a lifestyle that prevents illness. If someone comes in claiming to heal everything under the sun, they probably believe that they can, but what they got usually isn't real.

[Mr Punch]

The character means 'steam'. The top part which goes down the right hand side means steam on its own, and the inside part means rice.

It's hot air.

Also breath.

Also energy.

Discourse (http://www.aikidofaq.com/philosophy/index.html)

Practical examples (http://omlc.ogi.edu/aikido/talk/others/phrases_ki.html)

So that's the intellectual ****.

Practically, all I know is, if I concentrate on my breathing, or it comes right effortlessly, naturally, everything else falls into place.

As far as putting out candles and the like goes, I use my fingers! Moving people, physics, but it's still easier with natural breathing!

[African Tiger]

I was talking to a friend of mine, who is 1/2 African American and Thai, and was raised in Thailand. She watched me playing with my balls...er, circulating my Baoding, :D and having grown up in Asia, wanted to see if I had any Qi.

So I held up my hands, perpendicular to the ground in that classic "test my qi" pose. She put her hand inbetween them and almost immediately jumped back and said, "**** your hands were getting hot!" She never made contact with my hands at all.

A non-believer tried it, and felt what she described as "heat with magnets", between my hands.

[prana]

Daylight is wonderful, isnt it ? It makes our eyes see, and our skin warm. Yet daylight is made of colours like red, blue, yellow, indigo and more.

:rolleyes:

Ask the got qi girls :cool:

[bob10]

Seems to me that chi is whatever you want it to be. Interestingly no-one has said that it is something that flows through meridians in the body, so I guess we are advancing to some extent.
And the argument that westerners have no description or concept of "energy" is not true, look into any culture and it is there. In fact I feel western cultures may be closer to the truth with the concpet of a "field" around the body rather than something flowing through the supposed acupuncture system.

[panda]

I am still not sure if it is all BS.

I have had it explained as more of an emotional energy and to use Chi in practice you have to open your heart, the chinese refer to it as Yong xin. But the chinese meaning of heart is different it also involves the mind.