Does Iron Palm have any place in Wing Chun?

[IronFist]

Most WC I've seen uses fists as opposed to palms. Anyone do Iron Palm or anything to supplement/compliment their WC?

Just curious,

IronFist

[Wingman]

Kuen kuit: "Glass head, iron hand, cotton body"

IMHO, WC hand whether it is a fist or a palm should be strong like iron. It is our main offensive/defensive weapon. But if you mean iron palm training where you strike your palm in boiling sand or peebles; then I think it won't complement WC training.

[anerlich]

TWC has an iron palm / hand conditioning program.

There is an old saying, "iron palm drives you mad".

[anerlich]

Yeah, Iron, there's actually a fairly good case that there are more palms than fists in Wing Chun. Certainly if you count 'em in the forms.

[yuanfen]

Most WC I've seen uses fists as opposed to palms. Anyone do Iron Palm or anything to supplement/compliment their WC?
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Depends on what you have seen. Good wing chun is full of palms.
Beginners have to conquer fists- later the palms. Many many palms. One must first get the alignment of the palms and the deliveries just right. Iron palm work in wing chun should be done when relevant without contributing to long run damage to tissues and nerves that hard iron palm can do. IMO good dit da jow is important. Your palms should be strong but soft and flexible.
Again the iron wrapped in cotton analogy.

[reneritchie]

My sijo, Yuen Kay-San, developed the Dit Saat Jeung (Iron Sand Palm). When he was training my sigung, Sum Nung, however, he handed him a hammer and said the world had changed and his time would be better spent developing his core WCK skills. Ditto with Dit Bo Sam (Iron Vest).

RR

[Neurotic]

Also back up on the lots of palm strike theory.

I come from the William Cheung school, and our SLT has quite a few palm strikes in it.

Above and beyond that - I've heard it said in a few places (and this is dependent a lot on conditioning, if you can throw an punch with proper alignement etc) that hit the body with the fist, and head the head with a palm.

Considering how hard the head is (and all those nasty pointy teeth things people have) it is actually relatively easy to break something in you hand when punching someone in the head unless you know what you are doing.

Consequently, I've also been hit in the body with a palm - and it still hurts.

That also being said - I have a tendency to use both palms and fists when striking the head... all dependent on the sitautaion, and what sort of mood I am in. if I aiming at the chin, I will generally use a palm.. whereas if I am aiming for a pressure point on the face (most obvious being temple) I will use a fist.

So, as for your question on whether Iron Palm training has any place in Wing Chun. I respond with another question. Why wouldn't it?

;o)

Good Training to you.

Neurotic

[wingchunalex]

yeah wing chun has iron palm. i haven't heard of the extreme iron palm of boiling sand and pebles and stuff in wing chun but just basic palm conditioning yes. like striking the sand bag with palms and the usual hitting a sand bag like you would if you were breaking a board (well not really like that, more relaxed). i think the palm strikes are higher level and so you don't see them as much. palm strikes are used much more than fists in the forms, especially in the dummy.

[IronFist]

Ok, by "Iron Palm" I meant "qigong, hitting a bag, dit da jow, massage." Not any of that scooping your hands in boiling rocks stuff.

When I said I see more punches than palms in WC, I meant like... people block with their palms and forearms and stuff, so obviously strength there is important, but when I see a block/attack like pak da or tan da or whatever it's usually pak + fist or tan + fist. I know pak da and tan da aren't the most advanced techniques in the world, but still. Plus, people call it "chain punching," not "chain palming."

When I think of Iron Palm I think more of Baguazhang or maybe Taijiquan. Not Xingyi, tho. But I don't know anything about it either. The only thing I've heard of Xingyi is that they theory is similiar to Wing Chun and they punch hard.

So, back to the subject at hand.

Neurotic said:
So, as for your question on whether Iron Palm training has any place in Wing Chun. I respond with another question. Why wouldn't it?

I guess the only reason it wouldn't would be because of a lack of palm attacks. I guess iron palm could enhance like pak sao, but I would assume you could pak sao just fine without it.

I gotta go but I'll write more later.

Thanks so far.

IronFist

[rubthebuddha]

iron,

pak da and tan da require a strike for one reason -- the da means "with strike." so if i pak sau, i simply slap their hand. but if i pak da, i slap their hand and clock 'em.

--- sau means that specific arm/hand technique
--- da means that same technique, but with a strike. can be punch, palm, etc.

and honestly, i usually prefer using my palms (sounds bad, i know). knuckles, unless you feel like punching metal a few hundred times per day, aren't the stoutest of bone structures, but the head is. the head is built to take punishment (bred for it; those ancestors of ours with thin skulls died off the first time mom dropped them). the knuckles aren't on the same level. sure, i have developed strong knuckles and can punch most people square in the face (not the best way to meet people, mind you), but the risk of injuring my own hand is greater with the knuckles than it is with the palm. and if punch #1 doesn't finish them off and i still need that hand, i'd prefer it be in working order when it came time for punches 2 through 847.

[Sam]

Iron palm training can be detrimental to your health. Fut Sao Wing Chun has a Chi Palm or Vibrating palm which can also be used for healing.

[IronFist]

Iron palm training can be detrimental to your health. Fut Sao Wing Chun has a Chi Palm or Vibrating palm which can also be used for healing

I've heard it can if you do it wrong. Let's see, I've heard striking with the finger tips can make you go blind, hitting down instead of dropping the hand can send the shock back to your heart and give you a heart attack, doing improper qigong can screw you up in a bunch of ways, etc.

It can't be that bad tho if you do it right, eh? :D

IronFist

[Hendrik]

Leong Yee Dai and Yik Kam were both man playing woman.
Boy, it will look urgly with those IRON PALM.


SLT with IRON Palm? want to Kill the sensitivity? Sorry wrong path.

[TjD]

i usually use more palm strikes than fists myself, as they hurt my hands less :)

i think playing the dummy properly and using jow will do the job of iron palm

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Hendrik:
Leong Yee Dai and Yik Kam were both man playing woman.
Boy, it will look urgly with those IRON PALM.

Did I miss something?


SLT with IRON Palm? want to Kill the sensitivity? Sorry wrong path.

When done properly, Iron forearm and Iron Palm aren't supposed to reduce sensitivity at all.

IronFist

[rubthebuddha]

iron,

several iron palm training methods teach one to use tension -- to flex the muscles and tense up an area when striking or being struck. this is contrary to certain wc principles, which use more of an elastic power that relies on springiness and relaxation. think like a low karate punch/block -- both are hard and punishing and usually the stronger of the two wins. however, with a low punch and a gan sau, the gan sau, if done relaxed, causes little or no tension and, thus, little pain for the wc person but substantial amounts for the person punching.

the body will naturally tense upon impact, but trying to encourage this can bring about unnecessary and hindering results.

[Odie-wan]

Some of the earlier responses (palm to head, fist to body) forgot to mention another reason for this philosophy. If you are attacking the head, you can do this from any orientation of the hands without serious worry about injuring your wrist. To the body though you must think about which way your fingers are pointing to ensure you don't hit with your fingers first and jam your wrist. This would be especially true if your partner/opponent is facing you directly and you are striking his centerline.

Not so with a fist. Any old orientation will do because it is easy to strike with knuckles first, no matter how your wrist is turned.

Just an observation.

Sean

[yuanfen]

Odie Wan- much depends on level of training IMO.
I jammed my fingers once when starting many moons ago- but not since then.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by IronFist
Originally posted by Hendrik:
Leong Yee Dai and Yik Kam were both man playing woman.
Boy, it will look urgly with those IRON PALM.

Did I miss something?


SLT with IRON Palm? want to Kill the sensitivity? Sorry wrong path.

When done properly, Iron forearm and Iron Palm aren't supposed to reduce sensitivity at all.

IronFist



A, Yik Kam and Leong Ye Dai (as told) were actors playing female role. As Dan or Fa DAn. These people are similar to those in the movie Fairwell Cocubine. Watch that movie so you can understand how are these Actor behave. They have to taking care of themself interm of voice and appearance and skill....different then those who play hero or bad guys....ect
So, can they practice IRON PALM ?

For Yik Kam lineage,
Yik Kam didn't do IRON PALM but he did defeat Cho Shun's brother who challenge him and who practiced Nam Kuen and Iron Palm.


B, Iron palm is refered to a specific technics. There are different type of Iron Palm. so What kind of Iron Palm?

Hitting some stone or heavy bags and apply some Dit Da wine to condition one's limb is that Iron Palm?

The term reduce sensitivity is relative.
The analogy is Why don't the TaiJi guys practice Iron palm?
Do they need to? Does that Aid their TaiJi?

That is also the same questions for the SLT guy.