Fighting style for law enforcement?

[jmannix]

Question: What's the most "practical" fighting style for someone in law enforcement?

Background: Well fit 30 year-old former Marine, 6'2 215#s, gearing up for Sheriff's Academy and career in law enforcement.

Current opinion: Due to the nature of the job, I anticipate that most problems that occur will be when trying to "cuff" an unwilling individual, so I would think that the "goal" would be to physically subdue the perp if need be until the proper metallic/plastic restraints can be applied. Current/former law enforcement professionals with any relevant data/experience in this area are more then welcome to sound off as I would greatly appreciate the input. Thanks in advance.

[TaoBoy]

Don't law enforcement ppl learn a range of applications from various martial arts and apply them to their work? If so, I'm guessing they would utilise a lot of the joint locking and restraining techniques. Stuff found in aikido, chin-na, jiu jitsu and so forth. (I'm just making some assumptions here.)

As for studying a martial art for yourself that will benefit your work in law enforcement - any realistic martial art will benefit you. I'm partial to CMAs and BJJ/shootfighting - but it's a personal thing really.

Cheers,
Adam

[rubthebuddha]

aye. plenty of joint locking, but many agencies avoid going over the throws and such -- for one big reason: most people don't know how to land, and the risk of breaking something vital is a big liability.

a couple people i study with are corrections officers, and they can beat me okay with the general stuff, but where they REALLY get me is on the joint manipulation.

[CD Lee]

I think you gotta find a really good teacher. I don't think the style matters either, although you should enjoy it. I would seek to understand within any system why the moves work, whether pain compliance, nerve compliance, relfex compliance, all must be really understood to manipulate people that will be intoxicated, wasted, pumped on adrenaline, outraged by marital anguish, etc.

Joint locking can take too long to set up, may not work on some types, but works on others, etc. You just have to take time to learn how these things work. A real teacher with real experience is the only way to go here.

[David Jamieson]

a little of a few styles I would say.

Combat Tai Chi
Aikido
Chin Na and Kung Fu
Jujutsu (yes that's right I said that)

and of course the standard core grabs, holds and releases provided to you by your friendly DI/Sargeant

peace

[Aramus]

I would go with CD LEE, the teacher might be the more important element. Especially if he knows you will have to be using it and maybe soon.

I like kenpo karate (could be biased), it is very punishing art, however.
Jujitsu I believe would be good as well. I know there was some form of Aikido started by a police officer...that might be good to.
Regardless, the school must spar.
Check it. Good luck.:)

[ewallace]

I think for a L/E officer the style really does matter. The idea isn't to pummel a resisting offender into the ground so you can cuff 'em.

I would definitely say Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for ground control...there will be a lot of that in your line of work.

As for standup, a good aikido teacher would be great, and you might want to look into Kali (esp. Pekiti-Tirsia! :)) for weapon defenses...especially good for use with a baton.

Good Luck!

[guohuen]

Definetly a style with a lot of joint control and grappling techniques.

[Liokault]

Combat Tai Chi

Kung Lek

Combat Tai Chi? Does this mean that the hippys have finaly taken over the Tai Chi name to the extent that people who remember what Tai Chi was really ment for have to call their art somthing else?


In answer to the question i would go for somthing that taught not only joint manipulation but also kinfe awarness as that may well be the main threat to you (assumeing that you are taught about gun s by the police).

I would stay away from BJJ as you really dont want to get tied up on the ground for any length of time in the situations that i forsee you going into and it really doesnt offer much else:D .

Also stay away from Aikido. Its a fine art and may or may not be affective after 30 years but its not really going to help you.




So if i were you i would be going to as many differant clubs as i could to see what fits your criteria.

[Souljah]

Apparently some learn some chin na

[apoweyn]

i'm with ewallace. the filipino arts seem to be pretty popular with law enforcement for a couple of reasons. 1) they focus on the stick (baton) for striking, defending, controlling, grappling, etc. and 2) they emphasize weapon defenses against the stick, knife, etc. 3) it does have a viable empty-hand component (depending on the teacher, of course).

if memory serves, several police forces in california have even taken to using a rattan baton. a few years back, sam tendencia (i believe) began teaching at a few academies out there.


stuart b.

[CD Lee]

Well, here is a very important factor for law enforcement that most of us do not have to worry about. It is extreemly important that officers have at their disposal a RANGE of 'level of force' techniques. They MUST learn to control people with less force than a regular martial artist. Kung fu is very very effective in this area, as one learns balance and rooting/uprooting principles that can be used to control somebody without always smashing their nose in. Bouncers use a lot of these same methods for similar reasons. Chin Na is excellent of course, but you have to be able to switch gears quickly, very quickly if it is not working, and no, it does not always work.

Sombody mentioned Kenpo. I could be wrong, but is it not pretty normal to ingrain some very violent reactions to attacks in this style? Yes I am generalizing, but I said I could be wrong. Kenpo would scare me as an officer. Scared I would slam my fist into someones adams apple before I had a chance to think.

[Former castleva]

Speaking of kempo,shorinji kempo might do...
maybe.

BTW,check my reply at "reality" forum,thanks.

[Stranger]

"Also stay away from Aikido. Its a fine art and may or may not be affective after 30 years but its not really going to help you."
-Liokault


I respectfully disagree. The Yoshinkan Hombu's police combative program is widely considered one of the finest finishing schools in police unarmed combatives in the world. Not only has it served the Tokyo Riot Police as their H2H system, there have also been countless foreign policemen who have attended the one-year high speed/high impact training. IF you graduate, I believe you would be quite capable of defending yourself.

[Budokan]

While I think it's true aikido has a shallow learning curve, it won't take 30 years to apply what you've learned. That's simply ridiculous.

[taba]

stranger, you familiar with robert twigger's 'angry white pyjamas'?

account of scrawny oxford poet going thru the toyko riot police course.

entertaining.

[David Jamieson]

liokault -

Combat tai chi has been taught to RCMP officers of D-division back in my home town of winnipeg for over 20 years now.

by one Brian Cox sifu. I believe he published the manual about 10 or 15 years ago. Not sure if it's available outside of Canada, but Shambala might carry it.

peace

[tnwingtsun]

"a couple people i study with are corrections officers, and they can beat me okay with the general stuff,"


I've been a corrections officer for some years in the past,some are good,some bad.


"but where they REALLY get me is on the joint manipulation."


We both study WT,next time you train with Leung Ting ask
him what "you can lock a board,but you can't lock a chain"
means.

If he shows you and you understand the concept and you can apply it,your problem with "joint manipulation" will not be so much a problem.

[Liokault]

Taba




stranger, you familiar with robert twigger's 'angry white pyjamas'?


Great book about a guy and i once met the guy its about. The most reveling part of the book for me is where all the top aikido guys from around the world for the funeral and go out to get drunk. after getting drunk they all go from night club to night club fighting bouncers.

Now all the top aikido guys are fighting.....but there are no nice locks or even throws just wild haymaker punches!!!!!

[Merryprankster]

We both study WT,next time you train with Leung Ting askhim what "you can lock a board,but you can't lock a chain"
means.

This is why the name of the game is "Control, Isolate, Submission."

It's also why I don't trust standing joint manipulation. Too many degrees of freedom of movement.

[bob10]

If you can find a school near to you, try Systema. It's taught to/by Russian Spec Ops and the top police/bodyguard units. Failing that see if you can find combat Sombo anywhere.
We have a number of police/ prison staff/security people in our school, they all swear by it.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by CD Lee [/i]Sombody mentioned Kenpo. I could be wrong, but is it not pretty normal to ingrain some very violent reactions to attacks in this style? ... . Kenpo would scare me as an officer. Scared I would slam my fist into someones adams apple before I had a chance to think.

We are taught options, but you are correct in that a lot of the things we learn in Kenpo are violent/brutal. That's the nature of fighing. My brother is with the sherrifs office and has used Kenpo effectively several times in the line of duty.

If learning specifically for police work you might try Sub Level-4 Kenpo. This is Dr. Ron Chapels' version of American Kenpo. He is an ex cop, and I've heard that a lot of his techniques end with the opponent in position to be cuffed or otherwise restrained. There is also an emphasis on cavity strikes as well as controling your level of response.

Escrima was also recomended, and might be more available. It is an excellent style, although the Escrimadores I've worked out with were pretty violent. They do joint locks and takedowns as well.

Chin Na and other joint locking styles would be excellent as an adjunct, but I wouldn't want to depend on joint locks alone. I don't think Chin Na was meant to be a stand alone style although what I've seen of it was verry effective.

You might consider going through the academy first. You will get a fair ammount of training there. (I was the dummy for my brother when he went through, and I can tell you that the stuff they taught him worked!) After that you could check out what is available in your area and pick a style that fits well with what you are doing.

Good luck in your career.

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, check around in the academy. There may be some experienced but disgruntled old-timer martial arts freak just dying to share his knowledge.

I just hope you get better training than the British police force, whose compulsory training on the newly released side-handle baton and telescopic baton consisted of just half a day on each!

The side-handle baton training consisted of strikes only, which is only half of its repertoire, and difficult to control without a lot more than half a day! Furthermore, the British batons have rubber grips, thus negating half of the momentum usually afforded by a smooth, friction free handle. Basically, with that kind of weapon, you don't even need training in clouting someone.

A good aiki teacher with enforcement experience (if by some miracle you're lucky enough to find one!!!) is all you'll need, funky standing locks and all. Most of the people you'll need to get dirty with will just need restraining until they've cooled off/sobered up, in a cell or there and then. I doubt many of them will have the faintest idea of, or certainly, natural reactions or even training, to work on the 'try locking a chain' principle.

[GeneChing]

http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/milpolvid.html
I think everyone in enforcement should take a look at Jing Quan Dao. It's got some very interesting things going on - We are working on more. He even has a form for fighting with handcuffs.

[rubthebuddha]

tnwingtsun: i know the idea behind it, the locks, defenses, and my arms can work with it -- when done at a moderate speed. however the people i mentioned are **** good at the locks they apply. locks are locks, and the deferences between elbow or shoulder locks from style to style are pretty minimal. basically, it's a matter of skill and ability -- their skill with applying the lock is FAR greater than mine at relaxing with it. :(

the good part? it's just motivation to get better with it, and at least i know i'm getting the attacks done against me correctly, so i have something legit to practice on. :)

[taba]

"Now all the top aikido guys are fighting.....but there are no nice locks or even throws just wild haymaker punches!!!!!"

yeah,

"'was there any aikido?' asked ben. 'not that i saw,' said stephan otto, imitating the slow swing of a novice's haymaker punch. 'it was just brawling.'"

and that questioned self- defence value - yikes!

had liked the thought of praticing a hard style aikido some day. made me question...

[Stranger]

taba,

I have never read the book nor have I personally trained in Yoshinkan Aikido.

I wouldn't necessarily consider the aikido bar fight a dark mark on the effectiveness of the style. Most styles don't work so well when drunk, some moreso than othes. Yoshinkan Aikido requires a keen sense of distance, timing, and center combined with fast flowing reflexes rooted in calmness. All of these requisites would be effected after a few drinks and be almost non-existant after a night of binge drinking combined with grief misdirected into random anger and violence.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it is something to consider.

[tnwingtsun]

rubthebuddha>

"basically, it's a matter of skill and ability -- their skill with applying the lock is FAR greater than mine at relaxing with it."

I'm with ya all the way on that one,I would guess that we've both trained with people that can "relaxe" the limbs(or whole body being a higher level).

And its hard to get to that point,I'm not where I'd like to be
but I know that it can be done because we've seen it and felt it.


Merryprankster>



" This is why the name of the game is "Control, Isolate, Submission."

As a Corrections Officer thats the plan and the SOP,as we both know when the Excrement hits the fan "Control, Isolate, Submission" does not always work.
One of the screwed up things is that you can loose your job
giving out a BC powder to an inmate let alone using too much force.
I wanted to go home after the days work was done(to see my first new born),I had many reasons to give the job up(to many to list) but it was him(whoever became agressive) or me and whatever worked,worked,and we broke the rules every day
to survive if need be.


"It's also why I don't trust standing joint manipulation. Too many degrees of freedom of movement."

I agree to a point,but the variables involved can turn volatile
in a split second.
Example.
If you're shaking down 20 inmates and you're the only one in the room(which happens alot),the only protection you've got is your wits,a radio(see breaking the rules) and some
under paid knuckle head watching your back from behind a part of a television transmitting apparatus, the reaction time to save your arse can sometimes be hopeless,thats when

" This is why the name of the game is "Control, Isolate, Submission."

Will get you killed in a expedited way if you don't have good back up,don't get me wrong,I 'm not here to lecture you and I agree with you 100% about your statment.

"It's also why I don't trust standing joint manipulation. Too many degrees of freedom of movement."

By the same token,"Control, Isolate, Submission."
is just a part of the same puzzel as standing joint manipulation,they both have their places in different situations.

I guess that makes me a MMA in mind and body.
;)

BTW,great posts from the both of youens:cool:

[tnwingtsun]

"Question: What's the most "practical" fighting style for someone in law enforcement?"


Your mind and alot of good advice from members on this forum
thats stood the watch,in many ways,its easy to spot them if you use your mind.

[neptunesfall]

simply for the fact that you're strying to subdue/restrain and cuff a perp, which will almost always wind up on the ground. this is where i believe the "95% of fights go to the ground" saying comes from. a much different dynamic than just trying to kick the snot out of someone.
and as for the question of "well what about multiple perps?" i'll answer with these questions...well what about your back up? what about your side arm?

[bob10]

There was a programme on TV last night where they showed both CCTV and police camera footage of street brawls and robberies in Nottingham, one of the UK's most violent towns. Not one shot of people rolling on the ground grappling there, it was all stand up punch/kick/baseball bat stuff.

There was one lovley bit of CCTV footage - guy in a corner shop threatens the gilr on the till with a large knife. So whole family steam out with bats and lay into him.

As far as the police go - in most cases by the time they got there it had finished. Where it hadn't I still didn't see any ground work. Not to say you shouldn't know how to operate on the ground, but I'm sceptical of that 95% figure.

Cheers

[ewallace]

Really my advice is learn everything you can. Last year a friend of the family who was SAPD as well as a swat team member was killed in a struggle with a guy who just had a few warrants...nothing major. Anyway, the policeman who died was a golden gloves champion boxer, and who knows what else he had learned along the way. A stuggle ensued (I believe they were standing) and somehow the punk wrestled the gun out of the policeman's holster and shot and killed him. Now this is a veteran swat officer I'm talking about here. Things happen, even to those who have trained well. L/E folks especially need to be trained in all ranges of combat, both armed and unarmed. I would tend to stray away from traditional styles and go for a more L/E and/or military oriented style, along with some grappling for groundwork. These skills must be developed ASAP because you might have to use groundwork or standup on your first day or ten years down the road.

Come to think of it the trial for the guy who killed the policeman is going on right now. There were a couple witnesses that saw the whole thing too. Texas is not very forgiving when it comes to cop-killers. Barring some kind of technicality that guy is toast.

[neptunesfall]

riots are another completely different dynamic than 1, 2 or 3 cops taking on a single resisting perp. going to ground against multiples is retarded.

[CD Lee]

ewallace -


I would tend to stray away from traditional styles and go for a more L/E and/or military oriented style


Xingyiquan is over 1000 yrs old, and was taught as the MILITARY style in China due to its direct effectiveness. Maybe you would be more thrilled by some NEW way of killing/contolling people using your bare hands. After all is said and done, physics, and human nature work the same today as 1000 years ago.

I think a person needs a good teacher. Statements about new vs. traditional are steeped in subjective experience, that I am willing to bet, is limited by a lack of experiential knowlage.

[ewallace]

Of course a person needs a good teacher, that's a given. And I do not discount traditional styles. I wouldn't wager too much on your bet.

The fact that it's 1000 years old and is or was taught to the CHINESE military is irrelevent. One would probably be hard pressed to find a teacher in the states that has direct experience training the chinese military. Laws of excessive force change with time and with national laws. So do the weapons that one may encounter in the field. My point is that if one needs to get up to speed quickly on effective techniques that consist primarily of the need to restrain, traditional styles may not be the way to go (over the long run is a different story). That is just my opinion. Just because a style is not 1000 years old or is not chinese in no way shape or form makes it any less effective.

[bob10]

Xing Yi a 1000 years old? I don't think so, I thought it was developed in the 1600's at the earliest. It was taught by a general as it was easy and quick to learn for some of his footsoldiers.

As for subjective experience - aside from my own experience in traditional CMA I have a friend with many years Xing YI experience behind him. He rates it as a good powerful striking system for one to one, but of limited value outside of that, and certainly of very limited value for law enforcement.

[Merryprankster]

going to ground against multiples is retarded.

Actually, staying on the ground against multiples is retarded. Not knowing how to move around well down there is doublely retarded.

[Former castleva]

I think,generally speaking,if you can choose in any way then don´t go to ground at all.It seems that many sources treat this with this common view.That´s a terrible place to be against multiples or even stronger/larger opponent(s).
If you have to,then work down there only to get up,why to be there on purpose?

[GGL]

but I'm biased

[ewallace]

I think,generally speaking,if you can choose in any way then don´t go to ground at all
Sure.

But we are talking about law enforcement here. Watch COPS on fox sometime (not sure if you get it over in finland) but time after time when cops are chasing a fleeing suspect and catch up they both go to the ground. In fact a couple months ago I helped an undercover policemen restrain a very beligerent and drunk individual at a bar. Guess where most of the scuffle took place. :)

[ewallace]

Where do you train at in Austin? One of these days I'm going to make the drive up there to check out some S/C.

[GGL]

Yup I'm in Austin. I train with Dave Pickens, but John Wong is in South Austin.. both are good I think:p :p

[ewallace]

I'll start a thread or p/m you the next time I plan on going up there. I'd like to check it out.

[CD Lee]

Bob10 said:


Xing Yi a 1000 years old? I don't think so, I thought it was developed in the 1600's at the earliest. It was taught by a general as it was easy and quick to learn for some of his footsoldiers.


Hey Bob, I think you may have some mis-information on a very old art form ;)

I took this off of Mike Patterson's excellent web site which the entire article is there if you want some other good information on Xingyi at http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i/hhist.html


Hsing-I (XingYi) HISTORY

HSING I CHUAN - is a very old "internal" art most often attributed to General Yueh Fuei, a famous Chinese military hero who died circa 1130 A.D. Although most scholars agree that General Yueh did not invent the art, he is often given credit as the founding father as a result of his attempts to promote Hsing I through his military endeavors.

The origins of this most ancient of Chinese systemized combative art forms are unknown. Yueh attributed a wandering Taoist as his teacher whom had no traceable name. And the history of evolution of the art is sketchy at best, although it certainly does pre-date Yueh’s time frame. Some scholars believe the art should be dated at least as far back as the Liang Dynasty (550 A.D.) which is certainly possible. Likely the myth of creation is attributed to Yueh because it makes for a very nice story. The art is so sophisticated it likely was several generations in evolution to its complete form.

What is known about Hsing I, is that it is one of the oldest and most famous systems of Kung Fu to ever come out of Chinese Culture. The skills of Hsing I masters are legendary, and their kung fu prowess is the subject of numerous tales and songs throu ghout Chinese History.

Suffice it to say that Hsing I is known as a most powerful form of Chinese Kung Fu and good teachers of this mighty art form are much sought after even today.



Also by bob10


As for subjective experience - aside from my own experience in traditional CMA I have a friend with many years Xing YI experience behind him. He rates it as a good powerful striking system for one to one, but of limited value outside of that, and certainly of very limited value for law enforcement.



Well, that has not been everybody's experience certainly. If all he has learned to do is strike with Xingyi, he may as well take Karate or boxing. There is so much more to good Xingyi than striking. That is why teachers are so very important, to bring the arts of whatever persuasion to life and practical usefullness. And yes, experience is subjective I agree.

[David Jamieson]

xing yi / hsing i is indeed a powerful combat art/style.

short sharp shocks and to the point.
plenty of crushing, twisting and general get to the point stylings in hsing i.

Gene -
Alex Tao is one baaaaaaaaaaddddddddd dude. That was an interesting article. Also very "to the point" in the style area.

peace

[CD Lee]

ewallace said


The fact that it's 1000 years old and is or was taught to the CHINESE military is irrelevent.


Hey there Ewallace :)....I drew first blood, I deserved that.

Ok, I actually do think it is relevent. Not like you may think, but Xingyi is direct, powerful, and effective in real battle. That is why it was used so long. It works. And...the other nice thing, it is a system that can be developed to a very high skill level over a lifetime if one so chooses that path. Chinese in this case does not matter, just time proven techniques and skills.

Now as to getting up to speed fast, I tend to agree with you here, although I am not sure what you mean by non-traditional? Chinese Chin-na is as old as everything else. Jui Jitsu and Karate are traditional right? These systems have tons of restraining techs in them or am I missing something here? What new styles are you speaking of?

[bob10]

Originally posted by CD Lee

Well, that has not been everybody's experience certainly. If all he has learned to do is strike with Xingyi, he may as well take Karate or boxing. There is so much more to good Xingyi than striking. That is why teachers are so very important, to bring the arts of whatever persuasion to life and practical usefullness. And yes, experience is subjective I agree. [/B]

Funnily enough both his father and grand father were pro boxers so he already knew plenty about striking before taking up Hsing I around 15 years ago. I didn't say all he learnt was striking, I said that in his experience Hsing I was of limited value outside of a striking one on one environment. Sure there is some chin-na in there, but it doesn't compare to more specialised grappling styles. And AFAIK there is no ground-work component, nor have I seen any traditional teacher show knife or gun defence.
My friend has trained with people like Professor Li De Yin, Ji Jian Cheng and other top professionals. Even one of those said his chin-na wouldn't be a great deal of use against a "big, strong guy".
YMMV

[OneStrike]

Personally I'd go with wrestling or judo and BJJ, with an emphasis on your top game.

Anything that gives you base and balance, and teaches you the problems associated with applying joint locks to a resisting opponent is good.

Not that striking arts wouldn't be handy, but they look less like restraint and more like beating the crap out of someone, if that matters to you.

[Former castleva]

Ewallace,
Yeah,I know,we actually have COPS around here.
I understand your point,it seems that it often turns into a muscling session where the opponent is forced to ground in the end of the situation to tie him up (not just talking of that tv-series)

[CD Lee]

bob10 said


. I didn't say all he learnt was striking, I said that in his experience Hsing I was of limited value outside of a striking one on one environment. Sure there is some chin-na in there, but it doesn't compare to more specialised grappling styles.


Fair enough. My guess is that you have not been exposed to too much in Hsing-I. There is more than 'some' chin-na 'in there' somewhere. That is where understanding of the art and applications come in, not just form, but we can agree to disagree there.

As far as being useful for other than just striking one on one, try the Brazilian Xingyi guys on this board that fight a lot. They don't share your friends opinion or experience. But in all fairness, fighting is subjective, and some people use styles better than others depending on a lot of different factors. That would be the most excellent Tadzio, Bruno Lima, and others from Marcello's school.

Obviously as I have always stated and believe, supported further by yours and my exchange on Hsing-I here, the teacher is far more important than the style. One guy makes it work incredibly well, another finds limited value. I believe both are completely true for those guys. Good teachers are priceless.

[LEGEND]

Rodney King Arnis Style seems effective for the LAPD!

[bob10]

Originally posted by CD Lee
bob10 said


Fair enough. My guess is that you have not been exposed to too much in Hsing-I. .. But in all fairness, fighting is subjective, and some people use styles better than others depending on a lot of different factors. .....One guy makes it work incredibly well, another finds limited value. I believe both are completely true for those guys. Good teachers are priceless.

-sigh-

[David Jamieson]

I don't know if the arnis style can be called that seeing as they were using tonfas.

Not much of a style either when you're just beating someone on the ground armadilloing.

sad that was, but does not reflect the majority of any police force and definitely is not indicative of the police forces in my country.

you are always gonna have a bad apple or two, but the rest more than make up for it.

Blame the media.

and remember, 40 people a day get shot in the U.S.A on average, but apparently only the Washington shootings get the coverage deserving of gun deaths in america. :(

peace

[Martial Joe]

Boxing and wrestling.

You learn how to hold the guy down while you punch him and tell him to shut up.

[tsunami surfer]

Being I am in law enforcement here is the best advice I can give,(just my humble opinion)

1. First concentrate on getting thru the acadamy. Worry about a system later.

2. Learn everything you can on your use of force policy and all laws covering it. Then you will not be worrying about being sued. More cops are hurt and injured because he was going over force continuation formula while the bad guy was planning to mess him up.

3. Get real good with that sidearm and I mean to the point where you handle it like it is an extention of your arm. You are RESPONSIBLE for the terminal resting place of EVERY round you fire.

4. Now look for a school that is well rounded with backgrounds in Muay Thai, BJJ, and stick fighting.
But learn everything you can no matter what style you pick. Listen to veterans on the force and keep quiet during your first year, and use your ears when the vets are story telling. You'll be able to sort the bull from jewels if you listen. Learn to speak "verbal judo" and read body language(sit on the other side of the mirror and watch an experienced investigator question someone). Once you step into the street you will never stop learning and if you do stop it might be time to quit.

Good luck and one more thing. Get a degree if you dont already have one and never forget your family and to spend as much time with them as you spend on the job.(it's impossible but I think you get my meaning)

[SevenStar]

"Now as to getting up to speed fast, I tend to agree with you here, although I am not sure what you mean by non-traditional? Chinese Chin-na is as old as everything else. Jui Jitsu and Karate are traditional right? These systems have tons of restraining techs in them or am I missing something here? What new styles are you speaking of?"

What ewallace was saying is that he wouldn't take those styles to learn quick self defense. I really don't blame him. chin na is not something that's extremely effective when you are new to it, nor are pressure points. the "traditional styles" he's talking about are styles like karate and kung fu, where you spend X amount of time learning techniques, then you drill, then you spar lightly, then medium, then full - if you are in a school that spars at all. in more sport oriented styles like boxing and muay thai, you spar at an earlier stage. The same goes for judo and bjj. yes, they are all traditional, but due to the sport format, the training is different, and benefits can be reaped faster.

[ewallace]

You really understand me well Seven. If you had boobs on your back I would marry you.

[SevenStar]

I do have boobs on my back...When is the honeymoon?

[Odie-wan]

Check out the link below for some LE testimonials. I'd also recommend a controlling art (Jujitsu etc) and some good old fashioned weight lifting.
http://www.iowawingchun.com/law.html

[BrentCarey]

If you haven't already, go back up a few posts and read tsunami surfer's advice. I agree with it complete - except for his advice on styles, because no two people ever completely agree on style.

Much of my background, as many of you know, has been training military special operations and civilian law enforcement in general and specialized hand-to-hand techniques. I taught primarily Five Animals and Long Fist techniques, but I think this statement is misleading, since most people think only/mostly about forms when they think about those styles.

Anyway, I can say that the people that were trained in kung fu were much more prepared to handle conflicts than those that were trained in most other styles. This was proven in the field. However, at the risk of sounding immodest, I believe that it had more to do with the quality of instruction, and the level to which it was practiced, rather than the style.

I would not recommend these styles in general. Most instructors will not teach it the way it should be taught for law enforcement purposes. On a recent trip to Israel, I was fortunate enough to observe some Krav Maga training. I have been curious about the style for some time, and was happy to learn a bit about it.

Krav Maga will give you very realistic and relevant skills very quickly. I don't believe that it makes you any better than some other styles (for your purposes), but it can get you to a reasonable level quickly. I do believe that various styles of kung fu will take you further than Krav Maga, but it will also take much more time.

So, my advice might be to study (or at least take a look at) Krav Maga. Once you have a pretty good grasp on those techniques, then consider broadening your skill with some style of kung fu.

I hope this helps.

[omegapoint]

If you want to really use that "baton", which is really just a longer variant of the Okinawan tonfa, then take a good Okinawan style that teaches kobudo/kobujutsu techs that include the tonfa. You can ask the instructer to teach you tonfa techs specifically. Just tell him/her that you are 5-0 and they'll make an exception. Usually weapons training begins at green or brown belt.

You have lots of standing and ground controls, locks and grappling in Okinawan karate. It's called tuite. These are useful for restraint. BJJ is probably not such a good idea at first. If you've never trained it teaches you to instinctively go to the ground, especially the guard. Wrestling is done by a lot of police types and Americans in general in HS. Football teaches you good enough tackling and hand grappling techs. 99% of bad guys know nothing when it comes to submission stuff. Most cops did these sports.

Chin Na would be a better choice than Judo, JJ or wrestling. The Filipino stick/weapons arts are alright, but even in the PI the cops and the military don't train in them. As a matter of fact most filipinos don't think of them as effective fighting arts. They tend to train in Boxing (Kick and Western), JKD, Karate, Kuntaw, and BJJ.

In the end Gun-Fu is superior to all fighting styles! Just my 2 centavos....

[SevenStar]

if you can find real krav maga...

[ewallace]

Good to see you back on the board Brent.


I taught primarily Five Animals and Long Fist techniques, but I think this statement is misleading, since most people think only/mostly about forms when they think about those styles.
I don't. :)

[Yung Apprentice]

What about Hsing-I that teaches a lot of Chin-Na? Would it be good for Law Enforcement?

[Helicopter]

My sister's in the (UK) force and they learn only very limited techniques usually involving using an 'asp' (baton) to the outside of the thigh. They can only use home office approved techniques. She's had very little in the way of hand to hand training, I think the only guys that a decent amount of MA training are the riot squad officers.

(A guy I used to train with, and who worked for the police told me that one technique they can use is a knee to the inner thigh. Apparently one time an officer tried this and accidentally exploded one of the suspects testicles. :eek: )

[bob10]

Heli is right, the police get precious little training. The Home Office Control and Restraint training is somewhat lacking too IME.

What is interesting is the official response to police recieving more advanced training, it isn't exactly supportive according to some of our guys.

The legal situation is a nightmare too for professionals, that's one reason I maintain that an overtly striking based system is not the best option for Law Enforcement pros.

I feel there should also be considerably more work done on the non-physical aspects of confrontation, it's not enough just working technique over and over in class.

[tnwingtsun]

"Actually, staying on the ground against multiples is retarded. Not knowing how to move around well down there is doublely retarded."

AMEN!



"and never forget your family and to spend as much time with them as you spend on the job.(it's impossible but I think you get my meaning)"



The first takes alot of hard work and is in your face everyday,the second,well,that takes as much work,when you forget the second,you forget what you are.

Both well said and worth a second read..............

[cwheelie]

I seem to remember somthing about one of the Lau sisters teaching Eagle Claw to the Hong Kong Police due to the joint locks & Chin Na

[ewallace]

Originally posted by ewallace
Come to think of it the trial for the guy who killed the policeman is going on right now. There were a couple witnesses that saw the whole thing too. Texas is not very forgiving when it comes to cop-killers. Barring some kind of technicality that guy is toast.
As previously mentioned...that guy is toast. Got the death penalty yesterday. Man it's just not a good idea to shoot policemen anywhere...let alone in Texas.

[Royal Dragon]

DOUHNUTS!!!

I Sh1t you not!!!


http://www.officer.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005047

[Cody]

I'll take the Dunkin Donuts myself. :)

Cody

[dezhen2001]

didnt expect THAT! :D

dawood

[Suntzu]

Krispy Kremes !!!! the glazed with the choclate on top…… OMG!!! I haven't had one in soo long…

[Cody]

Yeah, Dunkin used to have a blueberry jelly donut. but, I'll settle. yup. :D

When it really gets down to it, I like French pastry. :o

Cody

[Former castleva]

We are on good hands,high on sugar they are though.

[KC Elbows]

Donut eating *******s just nabbed me for speeding.

I was doing 75 in a 65, went into the passing lane to pass a semi, turns out that they posted a sign on the left saying that the speed limit was going down to 55, but not the right lane where I just came from, so I couldn't see the sign because of the semi. Cop nabs me doing 75 in a 55 AND it's suddenly a work zone. I slowed down as soon as I realized that the speed limit was going down, but does mister law and order care, nooooooooooo, he's gotta fill his quota.

Now I gotta go get a picture of the lack of a sign on the right-most lane, and I've gotta go to court, instead of just paying for the ticket I deserve, ten over.

For those interested in how much I now have to pay unless I overturn the work zone crap, it goes like this:

$130 for going 20+mph over the limit X 2 for speeding in a work zone=$260

The cop tells me this, and I ask him how I could have seen the sign on the other side of the semi. He shrugs his shoulders.

A ninja would've totally flipped out.

[guohuen]

In corrections the vice is McCrystal's menthol snuff. Probably just as bad as doughnuts.:D

[Cody]

KC, sounds like this cop NEEDED a donut real bad. he was in withdrawal. sugar crashing disturbs one's judgment. The symptom is a shrug when confronted with the obvious.
wishing you every success in this time-consuming nonsense.

Menthol snuff? You're kidding. Why don't they throw in some eucalyptus and sell it at gas stations for nasal congestion? Ad can say "Smells real pretty when you sneeze. " "A socially acceptable snuff!"

Cody

[ewallace]

Krispy Kremes !!!! the glazed with the choclate on top…… OMG!!! I haven't had one in soo long…
The first one in san antonio just opened up about a month ago, just down the street from where I work. I have two words to describe the phenomenon that is Krispy Kremes...Absolute Insanity. There were car lines a mile long at 5 in the morning. At 5p.m the standing lines flowed from the door all the way out to the street, about 100-200 people probably. This madness went on for a few weeks. It's like there is gold or heroin in those things. I simply lost any desire to ever touch a doughnut again after I saw how they were made. They float on top of the grease in the fryer. I did not know that. That was disgusting. It would be much more tollerable if they were submerged under the grease. Then I couldn't see what's going on.

[SaMantis]

Yeah but ewallace, have you tried one?

God Krispy Kremes are great. The closest one to Boston is down in Connecticut. But then, I used to drive to Daytona Beach one Sunday a month just to get 2 plain glazed right out of the fryer.

And oh, they're fried in lard, not grease. Just to make you feel that much better. ;)

[KC Elbows]

They're also glazed, like every **** one of them.

Everybody knows glazed is inferior to buttermilk.

Glazed is the sort of thing Kansas traffic cops eat. The *******s.

It's nice to know that it's ten pounds of undigested LARD that's gonna give that **** sucking cop rectal trouble in his later years. I'd hate to think it was just ordinary grease.

You know what really sucks. There were a lot of construction horses in that construction zone. But were there any construction workers? Nope. How about any signs of actual construction? Nope again.

Nice of them to set up a construction zone too late in the year to do any construction, yet just in time for the fuzz to fill some quotas. Clearly just the man trying to keep me down.

Heck, the cop came up to my window as I was unbuckling my seat belt to get my wallet out. Then he said "Do you have a medical condition that prevents you from wearing a seat belt?"

!!?!:confused:

Here's the answers that came through my head at that moment:

"Yes, I'm pregnant. Wanna do me?"

"No. Do YOU have a medical condition that prevents you from seeing actions that occur right in front of your face?"

"I just took the **** thing off, Sherlock. Thank god I hadn't been shot, you'd be asking me 'Do you have a medical condition that prevents your brain from leaving your head'!"

Frikkin donut eaters.

[ewallace]

"Pardon me sir, but do you have a warrant to search for a brain"?

"I did see the sign. I also see that you are a moron. But there is simply not enough time in a day to respond to every thing I see".

"I am late for my shift at Krispy Kreme. Does your supervisor prefer cold, stale bearclaws or warm, soft bearclaws?"

KC: If you think my speeding is bad, you should look in the trunk.
Officer: There's nothing in the trunk.
KC: Oh yeah, that's in my other car.

[ewallace]

SaMantis

Yes I have tried one. It was pretty tasty but it does not warrant me getting up 2 hours before my regularly scheduled awakening to pick some up on the way to work. Maybe if they cleaned my commode too I could see all the fuss about them. :)

[Budokan]

Krispy Kremes are without a doubt the best. But when I was living in Shreveport we had a Southern Maid doughnut outlet. Man, remember those heavy ovoids Elly May used to bake on the Beverly Hillbillies and call doughnuts...? These f*ckers were similar. But at the time it was the only choice we had so we anted up and gnawed away like starved rats.

I had a cop stop me for going 65 in a 35 mile zone once. When he came up to the window he said, "I'm going to ticket you for going 65 in a 35 mile zone, buddy."

I wiped my forehead and said, "Whew! Good thing you didn't see me before I came around that last curve. I was in triple digits."

Hehehe, that was back in the day when my Firebird could really run. Now it's like an old man warming his chilblains over a sterno fire.... :(

[ewallace]

That's funny Budo. I was down in Corpus Christi a few years ago when I had my 93Z and got ticketed for doing 94 in a 65. I was actually smiling when he handed me the ticket. That's because it would have been much more difficult to stand before a judge and explain why I was doing 135 in a 65mph zone. :)

[KC Elbows]

Budokan,
Yes, but that's a firebird.

My Volvo should be incapable, according to the laws of physics, of attaining such speeds. To have the thing get ticketed for entering a dodgily set up speed zone at the same moment it achieved the impossible should not be penalized.

Let's put it this way. '83 Volvo. The overdrive doesn't work on it. The air conditioner doesn't work on it. The glue that held all of the window cranks on departed from this world long ago. Same with the trim. The glove box cover came off the same week as the first window crank, so the glove box is this ugly metal looking thing. There's a crack on the dash that I'm pretty sure runs all the way around the car, just under the oxidized maroon paint. Only two of the outside door handles work, and only one of the key holes functions. When the last door handle breaks, I don't know how I'll get in the thing.

Now picture it trudging along, the Frankencar. Despite the slow transmission leak, the transmission seems to keep going undaunted. Slowly it's boxy girth occupies the horizon, approaching. In front of it is a Lexxus, gleaming that weird muted Lexxus pewterish, dirt disentigrates at the coming of its opulent perfection.

You're a cop with a radar detector. Who do you aim at for the ticket? If the Frankencar is speeding, the Lexus must be, since it's in front.

Well, that rat ******* picked the Frankencar. He clearly doesn't know who he's dealing with. Don't mess with the frankencar.

This really irks me.

[Royal Dragon]

Volvo??

What happened to that VW Bug with all the Art Fx stuff painted on it?

[Starchaser107]

I'd do anything 4 a krispy kreme right abt. now

[rubthebuddha]

A krispy kreme?

A?

good god, go for a good dozen :D

[KC Elbows]

RD,
That bug was one of the other two members of ArtFX's, not mine.

[SaMantis]

My first week in Florida I got pulled over for an expired tag by this rookie cop. Really enthusiastic guy, first week out on patrol by himself. "Did you know your tag expired on January 1st?" was the first thing he asked me. I explained to him that in the Georgia tag system (at that time) tags did expire at the first of the year but that there was a 5-month renewal period, and that you could not renew your tag until your "number" came up. In my case, March (still a month away).

The cop shows me the back of my registration and says, "Yeah, but it says it expires, right here! I saw it this morning when I pulled over somebody else from Georgia."

I went, "Yeah, but did you see the paragraph under it? The one that explains the renewal procedure?" His eyes just glazed over and he said, "That doesn't matter. I've pulled over like, 40 people today and they're ALL expired! Isn't that something!"

Took the ticket to court and the judge threw it out. He said I was probably the hundredth Georgia driver he'd seen that week. :rolleyes:

[SaMantis]

ewallace, OK, you've tried a Krispy Kreme, and that's all that matters. My boyfriend doesn't like them either (he calls them Krispy Kritters). To each his own, I guess. :)

[GeneChing]

Bucks County Law Enforcement Officials Studying Martial Arts As Non-Lethal Use Of Force To Protect Communities (https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2021/02/22/bucks-county-law-enforcement-officials-studying-martial-arts-as-non-lethal-use-of-force-to-protect-communities/)
By CBS3 Staff
February 22, 2021 at 12:26 pm

BUCKS COUNTY, Pa. (CBS) — Law enforcement officials in Bucks County are studying martial arts as a non-lethal use of force while protecting their communities. Eyewitness News was at MPR Endurance Mixed Martial Arts Studio in Lancaster Monday, where officers viewed a demonstration of techniques to use when dealing with situations when force is needed.

The event was organized by Philadelphia City Councilman David Oh, who is a martial arts instructor.

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/15116066/2021/02/bucks-county-officials.jpg

Last post here 2002. Thread necromancy FTW.

[GeneChing]

How one police agency used martial arts to reduce use-of-force injuries (https://www.abc15.com/news/local-news/investigations/how-one-police-agency-used-martial-arts-to-reduce-use-of-force-injuries)
By: Melissa BlasiusPosted at 10:42 PM, Jun 10, 2021 and last updated 2:52 PM, Jun 11, 2021

A Georgia police department is rethinking policing by requiring officers to undergo martial arts training in an effort to reduce injuries during arrests.

Marietta officers are learning Brazilian jiu-jitsu, which uses grappling tactics, like body leverage moves and submission holds, not punches or strikes.

The police department shared body-cam videos with ABC15 showing on-duty takedowns. The officers get people under control quickly and physically but without injury. The department credits Brazilian jiu-jitsu training.

"You're now walking into it with a sense of confidence that I know I can take this person to the ground and restrain them until help arrives," said Officer Chuck McPhilamy, a spokesman for the Marietta Police Department.

For Marietta, their turning point was in 2019 after a viral video showed their officers in a violent encounter in an IHOP restaurant. They pile on, punch, and taser Renardo Lewis.

As police leadership looked to reduce levels of force in future situations, a major in the department suggested Brazilian jiu-jitsu. The major and several other officers were already doing the training on their own, and he had previously pitched the idea of offering it to all officers.

Since then, all new Marietta officers must train in Brazilian jiu-jitsu for several months. Existing officers are also encouraged to go.

According to Marietta police, in 2020, they compared officers who knew Brazilian jiu-jitsu to officers without training. They calculated:

48% reduction of injuries to officers using force
53% reduction of injuries to the person being arrested when force was required
23% reduction of the use of Tasers
They also noticed something about police behavior.

"A lot of officers tend to go up and scale on their use-of-force because of the fact that they don't have that conditioning or because they don't have that training," said Marietta Sgt. Ray Figueroa.

The city pays for the classes and the officers' time.

"The city has discovered that even at all of those costs," Officer McPhilamy said, "it pales in comparison to the savings that they're having."

McPhilamy noted workers' compensation savings for officers who are injured on duty.

ABC15 also spoke to Mike Lin, a retired Phoenix police officer who is also a black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

"It helped me get out of situations," Lin said. "I believe it saved my life and even the subjects that I'm dealing with - their lives, as well."

Lin plans to offer free training to Valley officers at GD Jiu-Jitsu in Tempe later this year.

"Anytime you can add a new skill set to your job and your profession, it's going to make you a better police officer," Lin said.

Marietta police recommend other departments also try jiu-jitsu, but they say without an influential champion for the cause, it may be hard to convince others to commit to the initial investment.


threads
Fighting-style-for-law-enforcement (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?16928-Fighting-style-for-law-enforcement)
For-Brazilian-Jujitsu-Practitioners (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?5954-For-Brazilian-Jujitsu-Practitioners)

[SteveLau]

My guess is that besides the use of baton, fighting style that has lot of grappling and wrestling techniques should be integrated into police martial art training. Take the case of a riot in 2019 Hong Kong, a female police sat on a rioter's back (not her neck) after subduing her, and waited for backup to take the rioter to the police station for processing.





Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

10898

[GeneChing]

Mixed martial arts federation to provide official accreditation for police academy (https://www.stabroeknews.com/2021/11/19/sports/mixed-martial-arts-federation-to-provide-official-accreditation-for-police-academy/)
https://s1.stabroeknews.com/images/2021/11/MMA-Duncan-2048x1038.jpg
Members of the GMMAF and GPFMA pose for a photo during the consultative process for local accreditation
By Stabroek News November 19, 2021

The Guyana Mixed Martial Arts Federation (GMMFA) recently met with several members of the Guyana Police Force Martial Arts Academy (GPFMA) in a bid to provide the requisite official accreditation for the burgeoning disciplined service program. This was disclosed by a statement from the federation. According to the correspondence, “The Guyana Martial Arts Federation met with members of the Guyana Police Force Martial Arts Academy to provide the necessary accreditation to be officially recognized internationally for Mixed Martial Arts in Guyana.”

Present at the forum were Assistant Commissioner Clifton Hickens (Ag), GPFMA President, Sergeant Latayo Collins; GPFMA Coach, Troy Bobb; GMMFA President, Gavin Singh; Vice-President, Troy Phillips; and Sherwin Sandy, Executive Member (Marketing).


THERE'S MORE TO THIS STORY. TO UNLOCK:

Not going to bother to unlock the rest of the story. If any of the rest of you care to, please be my guest.

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sySgloiOT3M

[Royal Dragon Pi]

My thought is that Law enforcement needs a handfull (8 or 9, less than a dozen) of takedown techniques that an be applies from a large number of angles and are easy to get into position for.

There are a number of DVDs out there that address this very subject.

I found one years ago (cant remember the name), by some big name law enforcement trainer who summed it up into such a small system that any school can integrate it into their program.

To summ it up

1. Less is more. Less than that is even more.
2. Simple, high percentage techniques. Must work almost all the time on anyone.
3. Entire system can be taught in a 3 day all day training course and be functional at the end.

[GeneChing]

An ex-ISU cop says martial arts training could lead to fewer mistakes on the job (https://www.wglt.org/local-news/2022-07-12/an-ex-isu-cop-says-martial-arts-training-could-lead-to-fewer-mistakes-on-the-job)
WGLT | By Sarah Nardi
Published July 12, 2022 at 4:06 PM CDT
https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/08a09a9/2147483647/strip/true/crop/4000x2252+0+0/resize/1760x990!/quality/90/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnpr-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F2a%2F04%2Fd61c279d41 a58b194b4413314c96%2Funderhook-control.jpg
Courtesy
/
Jeremy Butler conducting a demonstration.
Jeremy Butler grew up on the south side of Chicago. As a young Black man, he didn’t have entirely positive perceptions of the police. But as an undergrad at Illinois State University, Butler met Aaron Woodruff, the chief of ISU police department.

“We just had several conversations about the field of policing. And he felt that I would be a good fit for law enforcement,” Butler said of Woodruff. “So he essentially talked me into the idea of just considering it. And after a couple of conversations with him, I found myself at the police academy.”

Butler said he and Woodruff discussed the need for more representation in law enforcement to address frayed relations between minority communities and the police. After graduating from the police academy, Butler served for seven years on the ISU police force before leaving the field to pursue a Ph.D. in kinesiology.

Butler is now a professor at Judson University in Elgin. He’s combining his knowledge of kinesiology and policing with more than 20 years of martial arts experience to develop more effective control tactics for law enforcement. He has recently published a book called, "Stop Resisting: The Law Enforcement Officer's Guide to Proven Control Tactics, Less Lawsuits, and Building Community Trust Through Martial Arts."

Butler said police training often treats verbal de-escalation and physical control tactics as separate subjects. In Butler’s view, the two go hand-in-hand. Describing interactions between citizens and police that devolve into physical contact, Butler said, “I always felt that most of these encounters are going to start with the verbal interaction, and then they could go south. And now you have to get physical. So, why not teach that together?”

Butler sees the confidence and discipline that can be developed through martial arts as a way to counteract the inherently chaotic interactions police encounter on the streets.

“Oftentimes, we forget that police officers are human,” Butler said. "And, you know, mistakes happen when you when situations are tense and rapidly evolving.”

But by bolstering police training with time on the mats in a martial arts gym, Butler believes officers can better prepare themselves for unpredictable situations.

“As a professional, you have a responsibility to ensure that you're training sufficiently to prepare yourself for these situations so that we can minimize the frequency of these errors occurring,” he said.

Butler will be in Bloomington on July 23 to lead a seminar for law enforcement on Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
'Less Lawsuits' :rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

Guns and Kung Fu: Australia and China help militarize the Solomon Islands’ police force (https://globalvoices.org/2022/11/10/guns-and-kung-fu-australia-and-china-help-militarize-the-solomon-islands-police-force/)
Police received new rifles, water cannons, and martial arts training
Written by
Mong Palatino
Posted 10 November 2022 13:59 GMT

https://globalvoices.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Australia-donation-800x450.jpg
Australia donated 13 vehicles and 60 short barrel rifles to the Solomon Islands police. Photo from press statement published on the website of the Solomon Islands government
As global superpowers vie for influence in the Pacific, the various types of assistance given by Australia and China to the Solomon Islands police have elicited questions and concern about their long-term geopolitical impact. Some citizens are worried that the trend toward “militarization” could turn the Solomon Islands into a “gun state.”

Under the Manasseh Sogavare government, the Solomon Islands broke diplomatic ties with Taiwan in 2019. Since then, China has boosted its aid and investments in the archipelago as it vowed to foster closer ties with the Solomon Islands.

Early this year, a leaked security pact between the two countries raised alarm about its destabilizing impact in the region. Solomon Islands Prime Minister Sogavare has repeatedly denied that the security partnership will lead to the installation of a Chinese military base in the islands. He insisted that China only offered to help in the training of the local police force.

Solomon Islands sent police officers to China to undergo training, which involved the teaching of martial arts. This was reported by Global Times, a state-run news website. Zhang Guangbao, who is the leader of the China Police Liaison Team to the Solomon Islands, described the martial arts training:

We combined martial arts and grappling, and our local colleagues were very interested in it, because they of course all know Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan. We taught them martial arts moves which they had never seen before.

China also sent replica guns to the Solomon Islands as part of its training assistance.

During the first week of November, the Solomon Islands received numerous police donations from Australia and China. Australia donated 60 Daniel’s Defense MK18 short Barrel Rifles and 13 police vehicles. Two days later, China donated 20 police vehicles, 30 motorcycles and two water cannon vehicles. China even presented a martial arts demonstration during the handover ceremony:

Opposition leader Matthew Wale noted that Australia and China are trying to outcompete each other through the militaristic donations:

He believes this does not benefit the country in the long run:

It is clear Australia is anxious that if they do not supply guns then China will. Geopolitical interests has surpassed national interest in this country and it is a sad state of affairs.

Prime Minister Sogavare argued the donations will enhance the capacity of the police:

To those who view the enhancement of our Police Force, in a negative lens, I wish to appeal to you, to note that it is the responsibility of the [police] to serve and protect the lives, welfare, liberty and property of all individuals in this country. To be unable to deliver on this mandate is a poor indication of a country’s own security capacity, as a Sovereign and Independent Country. We must have that capacity and not depend on others.

He added that a strong police force will be able to protect the country from threats:

Law and order is an enabler for development, and it is important that as a Sovereign State, we are able to better protect ourselves, deliver on our security mandates, and confront threats when it looms.

Some disagreed. Journalist Robert Iroga urged the government to focus on other aspects of governance as he warned against the possible negative consequences of arming the police with assault weapons:

It is not the power of one’s guns that determine a good government. Rather, it is the ability of a government to deliver opportunities and better livelihood to its people.

Perhaps for donors, Solomon Islands is a pawn in the broader geopolitical competition: one provides Kung Fu training and replica guns and the other tries out-compete with real assault weapons. In these times of hyper-geopolitical competition, the arming of police forces with assault weapons could result in dangerous outcomes in the future.
Journalist Dorothy Wickham said the donation will entail additional expenses for the government:

She is also worried about how the intense rivalry in the Pacific could turn her country into a “gun state”:



There a several embedded tweets in the original article that I didn't bother to cut&paste.

[GeneChing]

Denver deputy suspended for breaking inmate's wrist with nunchucks (https://www.9news.com/article/news/local/denver-sheriff-deputy-suspended-nunchucks-inmate-wrist-broken/73-ff617969-9eab-44a7-abf5-9174bfa686f1)

The City of Denver banned the use of the nunchucks six months after a deputy applied too much pressure to an inmate’s wrist, causing a break.
How to send tips to 9Wants to Know investigators

Author: Jeremy Jojola
Published: 4:55 PM MST January 10, 2023
Updated: 4:55 PM MST January 10, 2023

DENVER — Newly released discipline documents reveal that a Denver Sheriff Department deputy working at the city jail was suspended for three days after injuring in inmate with nunchucks in April 2021.
According to the Denver Department of Public Safety documents that were dated Dec. 27, Deputy Daniel Rodriguez applied too much pressure to an inmate’s wrist using a device called the Orcutt Police Nunchaku (OPN).
The documents describe an out-of-control inmate who was attempting to bite officers. The inmate might have been high on drugs, according to the records. The records also indicate the discipline decision wasn’t made until December 2022.
“Deputy Rodriguez failed to exercise good judgment in applying increasingly greater pressure on the OPNs, despite being met with no indication from [the inmate] that he was sensing pain,” the documents say.
A former law enforcement officer from Denver invented OPN devices in the 1980s, and since then, dozens of agencies across the country have used them as pain compliance tools.
The devices look similar to traditional nunchucks; however, they are not usually used to strike or hit, but to gain compliance by applying pressure at the joints.
https://media.9news.com/assets/KUSA/images/e3c8ef09-023e-4a88-9962-bb055bfe2245/e3c8ef09-023e-4a88-9962-bb055bfe2245_1140x641.jpg
Credit: Kevin Orcutt
Approximately six months after the inmate was injured, Denver’s head of public safety banned the use of the nunchucks by police and deputies, according to a departmental directive in 2021.
The directive cited injuries and incidents in which “OPN has snapped or otherwise failed” and said “other options are available to officers and deputies for the purposes of arrest control or pain compliance.”
The creator of the OPN device, Kevin Orcutt, told 9NEWS over the phone there has never been a death associated with their use and that they can be safe if used with common sense.

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Hermosa Beach police train in martial arts to protect public, arrestees and themselves (https://easyreadernews.com/hermosa-beach-police-train-in-martial-arts-to-protect-public-arrestees-and-themselves/)
KEVIN CODY|NOVEMBER 16, 2023

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Sgt. Jon Sibbald leading a PGCT class with (left to right) Detective Dalton Blumenfeld, Officer Ivan Reyes, Officer Joshua Nakamoto, and Detective Brent Zuber. Photo by JP Codero

Shortly after Jon Sibbald joined the Hermosa Beach Police Department in 2002, the six-foot-tall, 200 pound officer found himself drawing on his martial arts training in situations where other officers used pepper spray, Tasers and batons.

Sibbald trained in hapkido while at Redondo High, and subsequently trained in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. He earned black belts in both disciplines.

During a typically raucous Hermosa July 4th in 2003, Sibbald stopped a brawl on The Strand with an “outside leg” takedown of the instigator. A passerby’s video of the takedown went viral. A newscaster who aired the video wondered aloud why Sibbald didn’t just Mace the brawler (who was not injured in the fall). A second newscaster speculated police elsewhere might have shot the brawler.

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PGCT founder and chief instructor Sgt. Jon Sibbald. Photo by JP Cordero
Police arrest videos became a television news staple following the Rodney King baton beating by four Los Angeles Police Officers a decade earlier. Locally, attorney Thomas Beck built a practice filing lawsuits alleging police brutality. In 2011, Beck won a $130,000 settlement from Hermosa on behalf of a client who suffered a face fracture after a Hermosa police officer allegedly Tasered him and struck him with a baton.

When Sibbald joined the department, Landon Phillips, now a lieutenant, was the only other Hermosa officer trained in jiu jitsu, which translates from Japanese as “gentle art.” Today, over half of the department’s 39 officers train in the Hermosa Beach Police Grappling Control Techniques (PGCT) program. The program is led by Sibbald, who describes PGCT as “blending the punch blocks of Hapkido, and Krav Maga, and transitioning (on the ground) to grappling and jiu jitsu.”

Sibbald earned State certification as a law enforcement use-of-force instructor in 2005. But for nearly 20 years, a succession of Hermosa police chiefs declined his offer to teach martial arts to fellow officers.

“The chiefs worried officers would get injured making arrests, or training. Finally, in 2020, I found a chief who would listen,” Sibbald said.

Chief Paul Lebaron came to Hermosa Beach in April, 2020, one month before Minneapolis police officer Derek Chavin killed George Floyd with a knee to the neck, held for over nine minutes.

Lebaron rose through the ranks of the Long Beach Police Department over 27 years in positions that included field training officer, public information officer, and internal affairs investigator. He also held less conventional positions, such as cultural diversity instructor at the Long Beach Police Academy, and adjunct staff member at the Simon Wiesenthal Museum of Tolerance.

Lebaron subscribes to a 21st Century school of policing that utilizes data analysis to proactively address crime. He recently implemented a program in Hermosa that predicts future crime locations based on previous crime data.

Sibbald approached the new chief with what little data existed related to law enforcement use of martial arts to arrest uncooperative suspects.

The data was from the Marietta, Georgia, Police Department, the first police department in the nation to require its officers, and to pay them, to train in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

In an address to fellow police chiefs shortly after the program began in 2018, Marietta Police Chief Dan Flynn described the jiu jitsu training as an alternative to police use of “pain compliance.” “Striking and blunt force techniques never look good, particularly on camera,” he told fellow chiefs.

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Taking a break during training at the Hermosa Beach Police Grappling Control Techniques (PGCT) gym are Detective Dalton Blumenfeld, Officer Joshua Nakamoto, Detective Brent Zuber, Officer Ivan Reyes, Detective Kurt Mateko, Officer Fabian Reyes and Sgt. Jon Sibbald. Photo by JP Cordero

His department’s data showed fears that martial arts would lead to more law enforcement injuries were unfounded. Two years after implementing the training the Marietta department reported a 48 percent reduction in officer use-of-force injuries, a 53 percent reduction in arrestee injuries, and a 23 percent reduction in the department’s Taser use.

The Marietta chief ascribed another benefit to martial arts training.

“It increases their self confidence and calmness when they are confronted with the need to use physical force,” he said.

Sibbald supported that argument in his proposal to Lebaron with body cam video of fellow officers Josh Nakamoto and Kurt Mateko arresting a suspect pulled over during a traffic stop. Nakamoto and Mateko trained with Sibbald at Triton Gym in Redondo Beach. After the officers found a gun in the suspect’s trunk, the suspect started to drive off. Most police department use-of-force policies would have sanctioned officers shooting at the car. Instead, one of the Hermosa officers leapt into the moving car, and shifted it into park. The other officer used jiu jitsu to free the driver’s death grip on the steering wheel, and pulled him from the car.

“It was the mindset they had from their training that I saw as the game changer,” Lebaron recalled, in seeing the video.

“At the police academy, we were taught control techniques. But conditions had to be perfect for them to work, and there’s no such thing as perfect on the street. You have to be able to think on your feet, or on your back. We need to give officers the tools to adapt to situations that they may not have trained for,” he said.

The State requires four hours every two years of POST (Peace Officer Standards and Training). It covers use-of-force, but inadequately for a “perishable” skill like martial arts, Lebaron noted.

“So we gave Jon a small budget for equipment and mats, which public works installed.”

The gym is on Bard Street, across from the police station, in a city-owned building formerly occupied by the Friends of the Library bookstore. Sibbald insisted the gym be close to the station to make participation convenient.

The program began in November 2021, with the chief as one of the trainees.

Officers train a minimum of twice monthly for two hours in classes taught by Sibbald and fellow officers Sgt. Guy Dove, Det. Kurt Mateko, Det. Brent Zuber, Det. Dalton Blumenfeld and Officer Fabian Reyes. The classes include the department’s two female officers. New recruits are required to attend the classes throughout their 18 month probation.

After their initial training, officers test at the Gracie Academy in Torrance for their GST (Gracie Survival Tactics) certification.

“The GST is for 15 submission techniques. We teach hundreds,” Sibbald said.

Hermosa officers aren’t taught the traditional police “pain compliance” holds, such as wrist and arm locks,

“‘Pain compliance’ doesn’t work on a drunk or a person on drugs who doesn’t feel pain,” Sibbald said.

Nor are they taught punches and kicks.

“You can hurt yourself throwing punches. And it looks bad on TV. An old sergeant told me, ‘I don’t want to see you on the 5 o’clock news,’” Sibbald said.

Chokeholds aren’t taught either. California banned law enforcement’s use of chokeholds in 2020, following George Floyd’s death.

“We stay away from the neck, and commonly use the seat belt hold to restrain a suspect,” Sibbald said.

The seat belt hold, as the name suggests, involves an officer locking his hands together after reaching over one of the suspect’s shoulders with one arm, and under the suspect’s other shoulder with the other arm. If being immobilized standing up doesn’t convince the suspect to cooperate, the officer can easily push the suspect to the ground, and pin him until backup arrives.

“All the time we’re talking to the suspect, trying to calm him down until he says he’s done fighting, or he runs out of gas,” Sibbald said.

“The goal is to teach officers to be comfortable in uncomfortable situations. If our female, or any officer is ‘bum rushed’ we don’t want them to panic, and reach for their baton, or gun,” Sibbald said.

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Sgt.Jon Sibbald and Detective Brent Zuber “walk” Officer Ivan Reyes to the ground. Photo by JP Cordero

At the October 10 city council meeting, Sibbald reported the results of PGCT’s first year by comparing statistics to the two previous years.

In 2020, and 2021 combined, the police department reported 35 officer injuries during use-of-force incidents. The related workman’s compensation payments totaled over $300,000.

In 2022, PGCT’s first full year, there were no officer injuries during use-of-force incidents, and no use-of-force related workers comp claims.

During that first year, 44 use-of-force arrests were made, involving 94 officer responses.

During those arrests, none of the officers used pepper spray, Tasers, batons, punches or kicks, Sibbald said. ER

That "walk" looks exactly like what I teach when I lead restraint and takedown in-services at concerts and events for medics and security.