Need some help pricing a sword

[zen_celt]

I was recently checking out some swords and such and found a nifty TaiJi sword(Chinese Straight blade) made out of Damascus steel. It is sharpened and can probably take some abuse, but is not hand forged. I don't really know much else about it sinceI was with some friends and didn't have time to really talk to the seller much. I will before I buy the sword, naturally, but I wanted to ask the more experienced weapons buyers here about the price. The shop is asking $500 dollars U.S. for it. I'm a little green about sword buying so I'm not entirely sure how reasonable this is. Any comments?
-ZC

[Ben Gash]

Seems a shade pricy to me. I'd expect to pay around $300 for it.

[GLW]

Sounds high to me as well.

You can get a custom forged blade from Angel Sword for around $1000.

Manufactured should be between $250 and $400... - and the higher price better have a really snazzy case and such.

If I may, what is your experience level with the sword? If you are not experieinced, I would suggest cutting your teeth on something other than a sharp real blade. Mistakes DO happen with beginners.

[GeneChing]

Damascus could command as much as $500, even more, or not. Frankly, given the information provided, there is no way to make a judgement. I've seen non-damascus buck knives go for $20,000 - almost as much as my new car. And on the other side, I've seen bar-stock removal damascus go for under $100. The fittings, the overall workmanship, the maker, it all adds into the equation.

[taijiquan_student]

This is a little off topic, but I noticed you said "taiji sword" in your original post. I just thought I'd mention that there is no such thing as a taiji jian--just a plain old jian. A shaolin practitioner would use the same sword as a taiji practitioner would. Keep in mind that when the Yang family and their students were training, there was a very very small number of people practicing taiji--most probably wouldn't have even heard of it. It would not have been a wise decision for sword-makers to mass produce a sword specifically for the taiji-practicing minority.
I don't know, you might have known this already, but I just thought I'd mention it.

[zen_celt]

GLW- My sword handling experience is enough for me not to get cut so long as I don't try anything from Crouching Tiger(as some people I know are apt to do). For general practice I would use an unsharpened blade or wooden one. There is no practical reason at the moment for me to have a sharp jian other than I like the way it looks and it would be nice to have when I actually do start studying the weapon in earnest.

TaijiQuan_student- I called it that because that is how I commonly see them referred to in stores etc. I thank you for reminding me of a sword's proper chinese name(I forgot).


Weapons, swords in particular, have always interested me and I'm trying to learn as much as I can about buying, pricing collecting etc. In the areas of sword COLLECTING I am pretty green, I know enough to warn my friends before they buy something that is a complete waste or is historically/functionally worthless. That's about it. I did learn a little from my grandfather in the way of making blades etc. and even made a few blades myself but that stopped when he got too sick to work in his forge.:(

Back to the blade in question- From memory, this blade is your average length(if there is such). One piece damascus steel, seem to be steel hilt and pommel, the handle is made of a dark wood that is the same as the sheeth(the wood is fairly heavy). Machine made from an as yet unknown dealer, and quite sharp. The hilt does stick to the scabbard and requires a little effort to pull it that first inch. Other than that, I'll have to ask when I call them about it. Like I said, I didn't have much time to ask questions but I got the phone number so I'm going to call them and ask for details later when I have time.

Gene and anyone who has some knowledge in the areas of metal smithing/ weapon collecting- can you please reccomend some books or videos or something on the subjects so I can learn more?
-ZC

[Braden]

Would it be this sword?

http://www.swordarmory.com/katanas/1013gta.jpg
http://www.swordarmory.com/katanas/1013gtlga.jpg

[Eddie]

$500 for a sword????????
thats more than my monthly income (converted to rands), dont even mention Gene's $20 000 (bout R220 000 - thats how much I paid for my townhouse) sword

...and I thought paying R260 (bout US$ 24.00) for loongchuen swords are expensive!
:)

[GLW]

Actually, there ARE different flavors of Jian...although most of them are no longer seen.

The one that is most popular now has a gently tapered thickness from a razor sharp tip to the blade area just in front of the guard that is probably thicker, duller, and used for blocking.

Another version has a very thick area that goes from the guard area up to at least half the length of the blade. The blade then tapers to sharp area very quickly giving you a cutting and stabbing area on the upper half of the blade and a blocking area on the lower half.

This sword was more common 100 years ago. In fact, if you look at the beginning of the traditional Yang style Taijijian, the holding posture with the sword has the blade resting forward on the forearm... With the normal Jian, this would cause you to cut yourself. In fact, when I learned this routine, I commented to my teacher how it seemed to fly in the face of all sword basics I had learned up until then. I was then told about the 'other' form of the jian.

The other differences, though, tend to be in the guards.

[zen_celt]

Yes I think that's it. If that one is a Damascus steel blade, it looks almost exactly the same so it probably is.

GLW- I didn't know that...thanks. Do you know why it is that some of those are rarer now than they used to be?
-ZC

[Stranger]

The sword that Braden posted a picture of is available through Museum Replicas Limited for $365 plus s/h. It has a Damascus steel blade.

[GLW]

Not exactly the why...but a guess...

Mass production.

Most people don't deal with a sharp blade.

If you don't have a sharp blade, some of the handling that would require the other version of the Jian I mentioned would not become evident...after all, it isn't sharp and didn't cut you..so big deal.

So, when people stop worrying about that, why produce two types of swords when one will do. And, the one you make uses a bit less materials...so is a few cents cheaper to produce.

Sounds a bit weird...until you look at the evolution of availability of weapons over the last 15 or so years.

For example - 1990 - NO ONE really knew anything about the Yang Style Taiji Saber. If you saw Taiji Dao performed, it was with a standard broadsword. This is NOT the correct weapon even though the techniques don't make it incorrect usage.

The Yang's Taiji Dao is a narrower blade more closely resembling a cavalry saber.

Brendan Lai carried one back in 1990 or so but ONLY in combat steel and this was at a $200+ price tag.

You could NOT get any other version of this weapon.

Then, mid to late 1990's, Taste Of China hosted Yang Zhenduo teaching TaijiDao. He had some for sale.

Now, over the last year or so, you can actually buy other versions and lengths of this weapon. They ARE being produced in greater numbers...and it really only ties back to the fact that there is now a commercial demand for them.

[taijiquan_student]

First of all, I'm no sword expert--I'm a real beginner and I just began the jian fairly recently. With that disclaimer out of the way:

Not to imply that you're doing this, but the opening posture will not get you cut if you do it right. My teacher said that some people often rest the blade against the side of their body, which will get you cut. If you have control of the sword and don't turn it, you'll be fine--at least with my teacher's swords that I've seen.

Of course their are different types of jian. There are many different jian, with different characteristics. My only point was that there is no such thing as a taiji jian, made specifically for practitioners of taiji. Sorry to be unclear.

Yes, now there are taiji jian (and dao, apparently) being mass produced. By and large, most are cheap pieces of crap (they don't censor crap now do they?). What I meant was historically there was no such thing as a taiji jian, so if someone says that the sword is an antique taiji jian, it is inaccurate.

I'm not denying that there are people who make fine swords that also happen to be "taiji jian", all I'm saying is that there was nothing specifically made for taiji in the past. I'm talking earlier than the 90's--as in, the Yang family's time.

Also, it is possible that someone had some special saber that was good for taiji dao, but swords weren't made custom for everyone, they were mass produced. I doubt that when Yang Lu Chan taught the militia he had a "taiji dao".

[David Jamieson]

What other steels are good to look for?

Isn't damascus steel a method rather than the origin? I mean using the high chimneys to make the fire hot enough to purify the steel?

What about stainless steel swords? Would this make a good sword blade?

500$ is high, but it's a reasonable price to pay for a good quality gim. But as south africa has shown, price is relative to the society you live in. 24$usd for a decent sword? Crikey let's all move to johanessburg (sp?)

peace

[Braden]

Zen - the recommended retail price for that sword is around $300, and I've seen it go for less. Compared to some alternatives, I would say it's not worth near that much. It's better than most alternatives though, but if you decide to buy it, get it from someone who isn't trying to scam you.

BTW, it isn't damascus. Damascus steel refers to steel from a particular place. Pattern welded steel is often incorrectly called damascus. In fact, damascus steel has not been available for a very long time, was probably not pattern welded, and is inferior to modern steels anyway. The blade in question is from unused Chinese railway tracks, not Damascus; and isn't pattern welded either, but rather acid-treated.

P.S. www.888knivesrus.com is selling the sword in question for $275.95.

[Stranger]

Well if you look in the catalog for "improperly made piece of sh*t sword slapped together from old Taiwanese junk", you won't find it. If you look for "Damascus Tai Chi Sword", you will.

(So there! :D )

[GLW]

You are right in saying there is no TAIJI Jian. But there ARE different forms or styles of Jians. Similarly, there are different forms of Dao...like a Willow LEaf Dao...very common.

However, the Yang Shi Taiji Dao is a special Dao. It is not really clear exactly how that particular form of Dao came to be used or why...but it is peculiar and only used for the Yang family Taiji Dao.

I ran into an interview of a couple of the Yang major proponents...I believe it may have been Fu Zhongwen and possiblly one other about this. The particular saber went back before Yang Chengfu but how far was not clear.

The style of saber has a long handle and often a ring at the end of the handle. The guard is not circular or oval but instead an S shaped guard similar to butterfly knives. The blade is curved and more like a cavalry saber crossed with a Miao Dao.

Yang Family Dao is pretty much the only style that uses this particular weapon.

[taijiquan_student]

"You are right in saying there is no TAIJI Jian. But there ARE different forms or styles of Jians. Similarly, there are different forms of Dao...like a Willow LEaf Dao...very common."

Right. I agree.

I've never heard of the yang family dao before. It sounds interesting, and I'm going to ask my teacher if he knows anyhing about it. Yay, I learned something.

one question: Obviously the Yang family daos were not mass produced. Do you by any chance know how they got them or where they were made? From your description it sounds like there were more than one or two custum daos, but not a big production line either. Thanks.

[GLW]

Actually, the Yang's TaijiDao WAS not mass produced.

However, now you can get them from the MartialArtsMart here. In fact, it is the first thing shown under the Taiji sword section.

However, they only sell combat steel versions. My experience with the combat steel ones is that they are poorly balanced and really wouldn't hold up well. this is NOT a slam at this site. My combat steel one was bought from another source and it is similar...not well balanced and not sturdy.

FIST sport - Beijing Imports in Houston carries a practice steel version of the TaijiDao that is moderatley priced, well constructed, and a good deal. It will NOT hold an edge...but if that is what you REALLY want, Angel Sword in Texas has made a couple TaijiDao and they are nice, razor sharp, well balanced, and will pierce a 55 gallon oil drum...and around $1200.... :)

[GeneChing]

Here's our Taijidao - it's from Dragon Well forge - a nice piece, very solid http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/45-60cs.html

As for jian, there is some variations like the different types of dao, but the names of the differences are not really standardized (nor are the dao variations although they seem to have more consistency - a willow leaf dao might refer to different blade shapes by different people.) For jian, you can't really have as much variation since the blade shape is, by defination, straight, but you do have variations in proportion, for example - this http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/455x50.html vs. this http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/45-36cs30.html .
For you reference, I did an article on the Taijidao back in NOV/DEC 2001 http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=142

[dedalus]

888 is a ****house distributor... go elsewhere if you want Paul Chen.

[zen_celt]

Thanks guys, I won't be buying that sword now.
Can any of you perhaps reccomend some sites or books on this subject so that this doesn't happen again?
Also, how do you tell the difference between pattern welded and acid treated blades?

thanks again, you all saved me some $$$
-ZC

[Liokault]

acid etch is just a way to bring out the pattern on damascus type materials.


If you really want a damascus blade have a look at one ofthese.

The last 2 of the dynasty serise look good. (http://mywebpage.netscape.com/fsmtkfa/hanwei.html)

The only thing is to remember that when you are buying damascus dont get one mail order....you need to look at it and see if there are any flaws in the weld.

[Braden]

Thanks for the heads-up about 888, Ded. I've never dealt with them, but they advertise the lowest prices I've found. I guess it makes sense if there's some issues...

Zen - the functional point of pattern welds is to create a steel with a mixture of properties along and/or throughout it's body. Since there's different sorts of metal in such blades, they will take to various kinds of polishing processes differently, and so such processes have evolved to bring out the typical 'patterns' of a pattern weld, which people find aesthetically pleasing. Because of the attractiveness and desirability of such a metal/polishing process, some people have come up with ways to make faux-pattern welds; that is, something that has the appearance of a pattern weld without the metallurgic benefits - like painting the pattern on after the fact.

There's all sorts of info, as well as links to retailers and forges, and also very knowledgable experts in a variety of related and cultural fields at www.swordforum.com. Here's the link to their list of production sword makers, with comments http://www.swordforum.com/links/productionswords/ , to see what they say about Paul Chen/Hanwei, the maker of the sword in question. There's more info on the rest of the site and in the forums as well.

BTW, you shouldn't be disuaded from buying this sword (just don't buy it for $500). If this is the sword you want, at the price you want, get it. Just don't let yourself be talked into spending more than you want or buying something you don't want under some pretense that it is somehow special.