SLT --> Iron Body?

[IronFist]

Ok, can someone please correct me? HKV told me that SLT is all the Iron Body training I need (or something like that), but he wouldn't explain any further. So, can you, HKV, or someone please explain this to me?

By "Iron Body" I mean "practice designed to make the body more resilient to strikes/damage/etc.

Thanks,

IronFist

[anerlich]

Guess you need HKV to explain this. I've heard tell of all sorts of miraculous attributes and benefits coming from SLT practice, but Iron Shirt attributes have not been among them - until now!

My academy's methods of impact absorption involve the body and spinal articulation which got a minority so annoyed on the "Footwork in SLT" thread, to "roll with" or "shed" blows, coupled with exhalation and relaxation of the area struck to allow the impact force to be dissipated throughout the tissues.

This is of course a worst case scenario, and evasion, or redirection of force, is a better option. But you need to have a plan for the worst case too.

[[Censored]]

I'm sure "Ordosclan", AKA "Turiyan Gold", can explain it in simple terms. ;) Look him up online.

[yuanfen]

Ironfist- I am not sure of the exact nature of your conversation with HKV. But like iron palm there are different kinds of ironshirt and iron body.Some northern styles had once upon a time very hard ( and contemparaneously useless) iron body training plus
mercury based(ugh) palm training. Some wing chun lines including mine has some soft iron palm training... but depends on developing a sufficiently tactile and sensitive body to divert/redirect hits immediadetly upon contact. SLT has to be supplemented with lots of chi sao among other things to achieve that.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by [Censored]
I'm sure "Ordosclan", AKA "Turiyan Gold", can explain it in simple terms. ;) Look him up online.

Is that the same person as Turiyan? Like a year ago he was supposed to give us the website of the "Awesome Chi in 2 weeks Gauranteed" people but never did despite numerous threads started by me asking him where it was.

IronFist

[IronFist]

Linkified (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=16856)

Here is a transcript for those who don't want to link.

Me: Some questions about Iron Vest

HKV: Why don't you TRY IT and see how you make out, Ironfist? Or you could do as I - and many Wing Chun masters - have done: Do your Siu Lum Tao set OVER AND OVER AGAIN. You'll find out what Iron Body is.

Me: Riiight. I don't think SLT "OVER AND OVER AGAIN" will produce iron body. SLT has no distinct internal component... the movements aren't even coordinated with the breath. The only thing doing endless SLT might do is give you mad anterior (front) deltoid endurance from leaving your arm out for so long. (Obviously this is aside from the normal benefits like better form, focus, etc.) But I doubt doing SLT over and over even for 10 years would improve your ability to take a blow at all. If I'm completely wrong here please correct me.

HKV: You're completely wrong, and scores of Wing Chun masters will call you on it. But you're not going to listen anyway.


IronFist

[yuanfen]

Ironfist sez:Me: Riiight. I don't think SLT "OVER AND OVER AGAIN" will produce iron body.
((depends on what you mean- not haed iron body but the abi;ity to minimize the imoact of a hit is increased with good wing chun IMO))

SLT has no distinct internal component...
((Wrong. The internal/external distinction becomes artificial in top flight kung fu including wing chun)))

the movements aren't even coordinated with the breath.

((Wrong-you just dont understand it, Learning from videos wont do it))

The only thing doing endless SLT might do is give you mad anterior (front) deltoid endurance from leaving your arm out for so long.

((What? !!!)))

(Obviously this is aside from the normal benefits like better form, focus, etc.) But I doubt doing SLT over and over even for 10 years would improve your ability to take a blow at all. If I'm completely wrong here please correct me.

((See above and a previous post)

[FIRE HAWK]

Just get Dr. Yangs Fukien White Crane Chi Kung Book thats all you need .

[anerlich]

HKV: You're completely wrong, and scores of Wing Chun masters will call you on it. But you're not going to listen anyway.

I guess those scores of WC masters must be about to swamp this thread any minute... Jeez, it's quiet in here, isn't it?

Sounds like HKV is following the time honoured CMA tradition of avoiding an explanation of an unfounded assertion by means of an ad hominem attack. Just IMHO, of course.

yuanfen is correct.

[Wingman]

Iron body? I thought all along that WC body should be like cotton and be able to absorb blows.

From the kuen kuit: "glass head, iron hand, cotton body"

[IronFist]

Yuanfen quotes in italics.

Ironfist sez:Me: Riiight. I don't think SLT "OVER AND OVER AGAIN" will produce iron body.
((depends on what you mean- not haed iron body but the abi;ity to minimize the imoact of a hit is increased with good wing chun IMO))


SLT has no distinct internal component...
((Wrong. The internal/external distinction becomes artificial in top flight kung fu including wing chun)))

Hmmm.. Well, I'm far away from top flight kung fu so it's not artificial to me :D


the movements aren't even coordinated with the breath.

((Wrong-you just dont understand it, Learning from videos wont do it))

I'm used to, basically, "breathe in when you move an arm toward you or upward, breathe out when you move an arm away from you or downward." So, in the slow beginning section of SLT, I don't like the slow tan sao that consists of many in and out breathes for it's duration, for example.


The only thing doing endless SLT might do is give you mad anterior (front) deltoid endurance from leaving your arm out for so long.

((What? !!!)))

I mean, these people who do their 60 minute long SLT's, at least a half hour of that has to be the slow tan saos in the beginning. Leaving your arm out for a half hour would highly stress the front deltoid, hence developing a lot of endurance. If anyone is inclined to argue with me on this point, you can bite me. I'm sick as hell of the "good Wing Chun doesn't use muscular strength" argument. Guess what? There is ONE muscle that is responsible for raising the arm out in front of you. It is the front deltoid. There is no other way to have your arm in this position other than by contracting the front (anterior) deltoid.

Ok, those are my replies. Please comment :)

IronFist

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Wingman
Iron body? I thought all along that WC body should be like cotton and be able to absorb blows.

From the kuen kuit: "glass head, iron hand, cotton body"

Wingman, I've heard that before. In the other thread I was talking about a specific Iron Vest form when HKV said that SLT could be used for Iron Body or something. I don't know anything at all about a WC body or any of their conditioning methods which is why I asked this question here. :)

IronFist

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by IronFist


Wingman, I've heard that before. In the other thread I was talking about a specific Iron Vest form when HKV said that SLT could be used for Iron Body or something. I don't know anything at all about a WC body or any of their conditioning methods which is why I asked this question here. :)

IronFist

DEAD man has iron vest also. because he is being DEAD. LOL

HKV has to do his homework before posting non sense.


There is a stanza in Zen buddhism.

" The mislead teaching to another mislead
One transmitting the knowledge both have no idea what it is.
the Sifu end up in hell
gues where will the student end up?"

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Hendrik


DEAD man has iron vest also. because he is being DEAD. LOL


Who is DEAD man? I think I totally missed something.

IronFist

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by IronFist


Who is DEAD man? I think I totally missed something.

IronFist

Any body who is dead. LOL


IRON FIST,

Ask HKV to explain in detail and dna to support what he claims.
otherwise, one can end up DEAD. LOL

and sure DEAD man has ironvest. because one no longer feel even if one is strike with cannon. LOL

[yuanfen]

Oh No- Is Turiyan back again.?

[planetwc]

:rolleyes:
Ironfist, what a load. Someone is pulling your leg. :p :p

The Wing Chun Kuen Kuit says:

Head like Glass, stomach like tofu, bridge like iron.

We don't do iron vest, golden bell etc. within this system in my lineage. Unless you do that from another system and incorporate it as part of your training. Where you will see conditioning is more on the forearms from lop sau training among other things.

Oh and by the way don't bash the HelL out of the Jong either.
It is not a makiwara.


Originally posted by IronFist
Ok, can someone please correct me? HKV told me that SLT is all the Iron Body training I need (or something like that), but he wouldn't explain any further. So, can you, HKV, or someone please explain this to me?

By "Iron Body" I mean "practice designed to make the body more resilient to strikes/damage/etc.

Thanks,

IronFist

[Sam]

In Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen there is Iron Body training at begining levels of training. This evolves to Chi body energy sensitivity. The idea is not to absorb a blow directly but to reflect aggression back to the opponent. This is in accordance to a righteous response to aggression and keeps the mind clear to respond in a live situation. Chi Body as opposed to Iron Body is a live response which allows instantanious countering with energenic techniques.
James Cama Sifu has an article in Inside Kung-Fu coming out in a few months on SLT Nei Gung technique.

[reneritchie]

A lot of people like to think (or talk big) about WCK/SLT/etc. being Heigung (Qigong) but just thinking it or talking about it is nonsense. You have to actually know Qigong, which is a deep subject in and of itself. Just doing WCK or SLT won't do didly squat for Iron Body in an of itself, unless through sheer happenstance you stumble upon doing every little detail in terms of meridian alignment, Qi/breath movement, Yi/intent work, and your diet and after practice bath just happen to contain all the right herbal/medicinal supports.

If someone tells you you can get Iron Vest through SLT, ask if you can hit them with a mallet or a spear or something, just so you know their claims have validity before you begin.

As a side not, my sigung, Sum Nung, used to do Iron Vest as a youth when he was fighting a lot. When he began to train under Yuen Kay-San, however, Yuen pointed out that even iron is worn down over time, and his (my sigung's) body was far more precious than a piece of iron. So, like with iron palm, he advised him that the world had changed and he was better off spending his time (iron training can be time intensive) working his core WCK skills.

RR

[[Censored]]

Who can tell me the difference between "Iron Vest" and "Golden Bell"?

Who can tell me the effects of 60 minutes in a low SLT, on a practitioner's body?

[joy chaudhuri]

Censored- I think that there is a samll and large golden bell.
Very few know or teach the latter. Supposedly makes you immune to blade cuts(!?). The Boxer rebellion settled a lot of things about immunities.<g>

60 minute slt? I have done it and do it on some days when I dont teach. Usually not that long. You become very aware of every aspect of your structure.

[yenhoi]

Iron vest, iron body, etc, etc, are these things supposeto actually make you as hard as iron (or just really hard?) I was thinking more metaphorically - sure you get 'harder' but your skill in dealing with anothers force is better?

I dunno, i am unfamiliar with any Iron Body or such activitiys, but in my metaphorical silly-land SLT would qualify?

[reneritchie]

Slow in and of itself is meaningless. You can do something poorly for ages, and suffer only wasted time and blood clots from improperly petrified lower extremities...

Joy - Great point on the boxer rebellion. The spread and elaboration of firearms changed a great many things.

[HuangKaiVun]

Anybody who doesn't condition himself to take and receive hits by doing Siu Lum Tao is NOT getting what he is supposed to out of it - though Hendrik clearly has no clue about that.

I attended your class, yuanfen. You practiced slow contraction of the Siu Lum Tao, along with proper posture and breath control. That goes a long way toward Iron Body/Vest training.

Besides, Sam just confirmed what a lot of guys (including myself) already knew - or OUGHT TO.

This form is a FIGHTING FORM, designed to toughen up the practitioner and improve his breath control. To what extent one wishes to toughen himself up depends on the repetitions . . . which Ironfist won't figure out because he's not interested in doing it anyway.

Anerlich, explain to me how this isn't Iron Body training:

"My academy's methods of impact absorption involve the body and spinal articulation which got a minority so annoyed on the "Footwork in SLT" thread, to "roll with" or "shed" blows, coupled with exhalation and relaxation of the area struck to allow the impact force to be dissipated throughout the tissues."

[fa_jing]

My conception of iron body was that your skin, muscles, and bones were stimulated, first through massage, then through light pounding with various objects like dowels, mallets, etc, and eventually stimulated with a steek flail or something like that. It was to help your lead your chi, defensively to various parts of your body, and had the effects of toughening your skin, muscles, bone, and connective tissue. So while you stand doing SLT, just have someone beat you with a stick!

[IronFist]

Italics by HKV:

This form is a FIGHTING FORM, designed to toughen up the practitioner and improve his breath control. To what extent one wishes to toughen himself up depends on the repetitions . . . which Ironfist won't figure out because he's not interested in doing it anyway.

Please tell me what else I'm not interested in. :rolleyes:

You've still not said how SLT can be used as an Iron Body form. All the Iron Body/Vest stuff I've seen falls into one or more of the following categories:

Hitting the body with either beating bags or your own hands/arms/etc (usually followed by massage and/or jow).
Distinct qigong portions
Dynamic tension

SLT has none of those. Sorry. So unless there's another way to develop immunity to strikes, SLT is not Iron Body.

IronFist

[[Censored]]

Censored- I think that there is a samll and large golden bell.
Very few know or teach the latter. Supposedly makes you immune to blade cuts(!?). The Boxer rebellion settled a lot of things about immunities.<g>

IME, the term "golden bell" usually emphasizes the inside -> outside practices, whereas "iron vest" usually emphasizes the outside -> inside practices (such as self-flagellation).

It would be silly to equate "not bulletproof" with "not worthwhile".

Slow in and of itself is meaningless. You can do something poorly for ages, and suffer only wasted time and blood clots from improperly petrified lower extremities.

Red herring. Unless you mean to suggest that doing SLT for 60 minutes is _necessarily_ a dangerous waste of time.

Just doing WCK or SLT won't do didly squat for Iron Body in an of itself, unless through sheer happenstance you stumble upon doing every little detail in terms of meridian alignment, Qi/breath movement, Yi/intent work, and your diet and after practice bath just happen to contain all the right herbal/medicinal supports.

Any thoughtful person who does SLT 100s or 1000s of times can find these things. When you do SLT, you are putting yourself in position to find these things. Is this what you would call "happenstance"? More like walking on the train tracks; eventually you meet a train. ;)

A lot of people like to think (or talk big) about WCK/SLT/etc. being Heigung (Qigong) but just thinking it or talking about it is nonsense. You have to actually know Qigong, which is a deep subject in and of itself.

This, I can agree with. :)

[reneritchie]

Hey,

> Red herring.

I'm not much into seafood, so I stick to salmon, which is pink more than red.

> Unless you mean to suggest that doing SLT for 60 minutes is _necessarily_ a dangerous waste of time.

No, not at all. If (big if), you have expert attention and have achieved a good mastery of the little details, spending the time doing it slowly (and other ways) can be beneficial (though I don't necessarily ascribe to it being economical as some Yiquan Zhanzhuang practice), but if it's not necessarily time well spent either. No guarantees.

> Any thoughtful person who does SLT 100s or 1000s of times can find these things.

My experience has been otherwise. Maybe a thoughtful person could stumble onto some of these things, but there are just so many little details that require work (as my sigung's seemingly endless cries of Chor! still echo in my mind) before its worthwhile altering the pace, IMHO.

> More like walking on the train tracks; eventually you meet a train.

Heck, you can just fall on the tracks and eventually meet the train. I think WCK requires more (though I leave room that some very talented folk can stumble across most of it anyway, given enough time).

> This, I can agree with.

LOL! At least there's something.

My bottomline, at the moment, is that certain parts of SLT need be done with excrutiating slowness to build attributes and awareness, but other parts need be done faster to build other attributes and awarenesses. WCK in most things favors the middle, and the blend of super slow, and suprisingly fast, IMHO, is part of the transitory brilliance that is SLT.

RR

[anerlich]

Anerlich, explain to me how this isn't Iron Body training:

You're the one making the unsupported grandiose claims, bud, perhaps it would be more proper if you explained to me how it IS Iron Body training.

Last time I played with a lump of iron, it was pretty hard and unyielding. The approach I related ain't got nothing to do with that, and doing SLT over and over won't help develop the attributes it requires one bit. I develop my Shock Absorprtion attributes through specific breathing drills (based totally on Western Physiology, not qigong) and incremental impact training.

I don't know what the canonical definition of Iron Body is, or if what you're talking about has anything to do with it, and frankly, m'dear, I don't give a toss.

And who are these "scores of Wing Chun masters" you mentioned in your appeal to [apparently imaginary] authority?

[anerlich]

Any thoughtful person who does SLT 100s or 1000s of times can find these things.

Or, perhaps, the monomania and sensory deprivation brought about by such singleminded concentration may lead to sensations that don't actually exist, or at least not to the degree the practitioner imagines.

I'm playing Devil's Avocate here, so don't flame me as if I were the Prince of Darkness.

SLT is FUNDAMENTAL, but I don't believe it will get you to some of the destinations claimed by some on this thread and elsewhere.

[[Censored]]

My academy's methods of impact absorption involve the body and spinal articulation which got a minority so annoyed on the "Footwork in SLT" thread, to "roll with" or "shed" blows.

I've never heard such a definition of Iron Body. AFAIK, it usually refers to the art of receiving a hit _without_ moving the body away.

Or, perhaps, the monomania and sensory deprivation brought about by such singleminded concentration may lead to sensations that don't actually exist, or at least not to the degree the practitioner imagines. I'm playing Devil's Avocate here, so don't flame me as if I were the Prince of Darkness.

I wouldn't dream of it. Then again, I wouldn't refer to someone who plugs their ears and says "2+2=5" as a "Devil's Advocate". :)

The mistake of theorists, is to presume their opposition is merely other theories. :eek:

[scuba steve]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Anybody who doesn't condition himself to take and receive hits by doing Siu Lum Tao is NOT getting what he is supposed to out of it - though Hendrik clearly has no clue about that.



HKV please explain in detail how one could possibly be "conditioning" oneself to absorb physical strikes by doing SLT?

As SLT is not a partner exercise and as there are not conditioning implments (gravel, hot sand, wooden sticks, iron bars, etc.) which are being applied against you during the performance of this set.

In the main, I would think it more accurate to describe SLT as a dictionary of the basic structure and upper body movements related to Wing Chun Kuen rather than a "FIGHTING FORM".

I'm therefore curious as to who your instructor is and what branch or lineage of Wing Chun you belong to, as your descriptions of your approach to training seems quite at odds with apparently Yip Man, Sum Nung and Cho family Wing Chun.

What is your defintion of conditioning against strikes?
One tends to think of training generally ascribed to things like Iron palm or even say Medecine ball training in Muay Thai and boxing as conditioning drills.

I would even grant you Lop Sau as a conditioning drill, what I am missing here is where this type of training exists in Siu Lim Tau.

[yuanfen]

Censored sez:The mistake of theorists, is to presume their opposition is merely other theories.

((Insightful and true!. And, a common mistake of the "practical" man is to think that they have no theories and that they are dealing with the world as it really is sans biases and presuppositions. Walla!)))))

[[Censored]]

LOL. :)

One person says "I train my intent and I am GOOD".
One person says "You have an overactive imagination and you are BAD."
"Yip Man was a monomaniac!"
"No implements, no conditioning!"

No wonder Turiyan went nuts. ;)

[yuanfen]

"Went"?. I thought he was the same for all seasons<g>

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Anybody who doesn't condition himself to take and receive hits by doing Siu Lum Tao is NOT getting what he is supposed to out of it - though Hendrik clearly has no clue about that.



what I practiced is SIu Lien Tau not Siu Lum Tao.

Hendrik certainly has no clue about Siu Lum Tao invented in USA.:D

And,
I am not interested in end up having hernia, heart problem, or high blood pressure.....:o

[anerlich]

I've never heard such a definition of Iron Body.

Me neither, and I never referred to my practices as that.


I wouldn't refer to someone who plugs their ears and says "2+2=5" as a "Devil's Advocate".

What would you call someone who hears "2+2=5" from his Sifu or another in IKF, or better yet, some anonymous internet poster, says to himself, "YEAH! YEAH!" and then goes and does his boss's tax return based in that "principle", wothout checking the info with others, or even performing a simple experiment with four (or is it five?) coins to see if it has any basis in fact?

[reneritchie]

HuangKaiVun stop trolling. Its well known that you can condition the body internally, and some branches of WCK do this through a twisting process not disimilar to Baguazhang or even Yijin, but this is not "iron body" (as [Censored] correctly pointed out). And even in raw physical practice, the body will "toughen" over time, but again, is not the specific training of "iron body" and all it entails.

Hendrik, you stop trolling to. It's not nice to make fun of how people romanize Cantonese, even if they're trolling you first.

Anerlich, as is often the case, is correct. Yuanfan is also correct. Scuba Steve poses some interesting questions. [Censored], even though we may disagree in some details, is additionally correct.

And don't make me get into proving 2+2=5 from some perspectives either. 8P

RR

[yenhoi]

I can prove 2+2=5 with some rats.......

What are you training in SLT?

[yuanfen]

Yenhoi-

the rats!

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by reneritchie



Hendrik, you stop trolling to. It's not nice to make fun of how people romanize Cantonese, even if they're trolling you first.





Rene,



The Chinese traditional said, " if the name is not proper, then the words are not fluent." it means if the reference of logic is not proper then the derive logic is fault logic.

So,
A, we need to find out is it the same stuff we talk about
B, the details for proven these iron body stuffs.

Siu Lam Tau or the "head of Siu Lam" which was mention. Might not related to Siu Lin Tau.

The point here is are we talking about the same thing (set)?
not trolling.

If it is about chinese martial art WCK, then it has to be catagorized or analized in a "chinese way" otherwise it doesn't make sense. IMHO.

Hendrik

[yuanfen]

Hendrik sez: analized in a "chinese way"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
youse dont havta be chinese to analize do ya?

[Frank Exchange]

>> Hendrik sez: analized in a "chinese way"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
youse dont havta be chinese to analize do ya? <<

:D LOL

Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle. I believe you two will get along...

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Hey,

> Red herring.

I'm not much into seafood, so I stick to salmon, which is pink more than red.



Salmon is an inferior fish. Red Snapper, Spotted Sea trout, are superior.

Blue marlin steaks are tasty.

Sushi is too expensive.

[Mr Punch]

Thanks to Rene for using the expression 'didley squat' on KFO!

And thanks to HKV for proving diddly-squat to anyone as usual.

Yuanfen seems to be right again, which is getting rather boring.

Ironfist, you should know better after all this time than to listen to anything HKV says. He's the most presumptious obnoxious piece of **** on this forum.

I've called him on many things, only to be ignored, to be threatened, or to be accused of knowing what I think he knows: jack ****.

He is of course, well qualified as an expert of wingchun, like every other form of kungfu, despite never having responded to my repeated questioning as to when and what the **** he's actually learnt wingchun-wise, and as I said at the time, I remember before he decided he was god's ****ing gift to teaching kungfu, when he used to write some decent advice, before he lost the view from his high horse through short-sightedness.

SLT is not iron-body training, and you are wrong in the only thing it trains being the front whatever-they-ares (was it anterior deltoids?). Just on a count of muscular training, regardless of intent, positioning and energy, the workout in the abs, whatever the muscles are in your upper thighs, your delts, the fast-twitch reaction in your triceps, and many other muscle sets should be apparent if you are training right, even if you are as relaxed as you should be.


Censored: have you been away for a bit, or just on other threads? Nice to see your posts again anyway, even if I don't agree with them!

[reneritchie]

fa-jing is most assuredly incorrect. Salmon is the superior fish, even if I enjoy Chilean Sea Bass on occasion as well.

Sushi is expensive, but I'm currently hooked on Kamakaze (which is a Maki including the awesom fish named Salmon made spicy, along with avocado and tempura batter). Must have hidden narcotics as well.

Mat - You are most welcome. Next I'm considering a 'nuttin a go so, you know' or perhaps an old fashioned 'bollocks' just for Geezer.

RR

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Its well known that you can condition the body internally, and some branches of WCK do this through a twisting process not disimilar to Baguazhang or even Yijin, but this is not "iron body" (as [Censored] correctly pointed out). And even in raw physical practice, the body will "toughen" over time, but again, is not the specific training of "iron body" and all it entails.
Hi Rene. I don't know much (well... ok... anything really) about internal conditioning, but how does twisting help? What branches do this sort of thing? What are the drills like?

See? Now you've gone and made me curious. Thanks. :)

[reneritchie]

Marshdrifter - I'm no expert on this, but I believe the basic premise is to make the body "more dense" (I don't think this is actually how it works, but probably more about the visualization). In some arts like Bagua, and maybe Cho WCK, there are health aspects that go along with it (like working the limphatic system, working certain meridians., etc.)

The twisting seems to develp a more sinewy than musclely strength, if that makes any sense. I just learned it as part of doing the Siu Lien Tao set, as every motion as certain Yi Jing requirements, and through the Qigong set we do (Kidney Breathing Returns to Source) which is similar from a Yi Jing perspective.

For how it really works, I'd defer to Hendrik, or consult a TCM practitioner, or someone well steeped in Nei Gung.

RR

[[Censored]]

have you been away for a bit, or just on other threads? Nice to see your posts again anyway, even if I don't agree with them!

I went away, but I've been back for a few weeks now (with renewed interest in conserving the vital breath and keystroke).

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, I was away for a bit an nay fooker noticed!

Gonna quit posting soon, get more training in... now I have hotncold MA!

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Marshdrifter - I'm no expert on this, but I believe the basic premise is to make the body "more dense" (I don't think this is actually how it works, but probably more about the visualization). In some arts like Bagua, and maybe Cho WCK, there are health aspects that go along with it (like working the limphatic system, working certain meridians., etc.)

Physiologically, the bone mass can become more dense through exercise... don't think tissue can...? Working the glandular systems may work, but I don't believe slt was developed by doctors, healers, quacks or any other practitioners of medical jiggery-pokery...!


Rene
The twisting seems to develp a more sinewy than musclely strength, if that makes any sense.

Frankly, no.

[[Censored]]

Physiologically, the bone mass can become more dense through exercise... don't think tissue can...?

You are, physiologically, a probability field...and the field can become more dense. And tissue can certainly change; whether this is a question of "density" is merely semantics.

Working the glandular systems may work, but I don't believe slt was developed by doctors, healers, quacks or any other practitioners of medical jiggery-pokery...!

"One skill, ten thousand skills". If you can master SLT, you may find you've become a doctor by accident! :eek: Body knowledge is body knowledge.

[yuanfen]

Rene is correct- steamed sea bass- is a good fish... but fresh salmon is superior.

Marsh drifter: "twisting" is a loaded word...but many systems have internal conditioning....including some forms of yoga...
makarasana (crocodile posture) has twisting with cordinated breathing.

censored: correct. Going to med school is no guarantee that one will become a healer. Not going to med school is no guarantee either. A healer is someone who heals.

[IronFist]

SLT is not iron-body training, and you are wrong in the only thing it trains being the front whatever-they-ares (was it anterior deltoids?). Just on a count of muscular training, regardless of intent, positioning and energy, the workout in the abs, whatever the muscles are in your upper thighs, your delts, the fast-twitch reaction in your triceps, and many other muscle sets should be apparent if you are training right, even if you are as relaxed as you should be.

I wasn't saying that's all you get, I'm just saying leaving your arm out for extended periods of time will use your front deltoid. Obviously other muscles are working too. But, I love it when WC people say "I don't use my shoulder muscles when I punch or tan sao or whatever." That's what I was saying I'm right about.

IronFist

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Rene is correct- steamed sea bass- is a good fish... but fresh salmon is superior.
I'm more of a yellowfin person myself. Especially for sushi. Yum!


Marsh drifter: "twisting" is a loaded word...but many systems have internal conditioning....including some forms of yoga...
makarasana (crocodile posture) has twisting with cordinated breathing.

I read Yoga Journal occasionally (I like the anatomy articles)
although I rarely, if ever, actually do any yoga (gotta practice my
Wing Chun). I believe that I've read that the twisting is good for
the internal organs. I'm not sure how that would translate into
an iron shirt.

I was more interested, however, to know how twisting was
incorporated into Wing Chun. The Pan Nam systems hei gong has
a little twisting in it, but the rest of Wing Chun, as I'm learning it,
doesn't.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik sez: analized in a "chinese way"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
youse dont havta be chinese to analize do ya?

LOL
You can also analized in an Yoga way.
You can substitute Root Chakra with Hui Ying. Heart Chakra with Dan Jung.....

[yuanfen]

I dont think that Ananda asked enough questions about the muladhara in the Surangama Sutra. Its important in good slt -
dont you think?

[HuangKaiVun]

You guys (especially Mat and Ironfist and especially NOT Ironfist) all SUCK.

Not a single one of you can issue - nor take - a hit. That's because you didn't learn your Siu Lum Tao right via constant repetition.

You all know where to find me if you want to call me on this.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
You guys (especially Mat and Ironfist and especially NOT Ironfist) all SUCK.

Not a single one of you can issue - nor take - a hit. That's because you didn't learn your Siu Lum Tao right via constant repetition.

You all know where to find me if you want to call me on this.

LOL.





Siu Lien Tau has technics to break Iron vest or Iron Shirt or Goldern Bell Sheild.


So, Why do Siu Lien Tau need( to waste energy, pull the reverse gear, ) to include in those Iron body technics which can't protect one from the Siu Lien Tau technics itself?

Furthermore, similary,
why do siu lien tau need to include those Iron Palm technics when the siu lien Tau technics can cause internal damage?

Alots of people have to do thier home work before posting.


If you think your Iron vest is so great. You think your issuing is so great?
Go to BangKok and have a try out with those Thai Boxers or go join a Kyokushin tournament. See how many kicks your iron vest can take and how powerfull you issuing?

Iron vest and Iron palm looks great. But, read the Thai Boxing match's history document (not His story). what is the result?


Stop preaching the idea as Spiritual Vest can protect against bullet in 1900's.

ToTo this is not Kansas anymore. things has to make common sense.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by yuanfen
I dont think that Ananda asked enough questions about the muladhara in the Surangama Sutra. Its important in good slt -
dont you think?

Joy, Anada is so amaze about the 7th Chakra, the jewel lotus with tenth of thousand of pedals.....beyond the crown....undestructive....don't need Iron vest to protec....
so he must thought what the heck. LOL

Since I am not him, a lower level being, and didn't meet my ModeGa hot lady (may be Hsu Chi) yet.
I will ask budda more about muladhara and kundalini if I have chanced to meet him or even ask the White Cloud of Emei Gold Summit to explain what he wrote about those...heat...and Rainbow body.... LOL (joking)

I am going for the Rainbow body or light body in Emei 12 Zhuang . Certainly not the low tech Iron body.

Hey StarWars the 5th episode.
The search of Rainbow body--- when Darth Vaders lost his physical body....


The Iron, the flesh, the Rainbow, the suyata, the prajna paramita?
Ya Ya Ya Hendrik is going wild again. which is the real body? LOL

The thousand pedal jewel lotus.......

[IronFist]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
You guys (especially Mat and Ironfist and especially NOT Ironfist) all SUCK.

That almost made sense. But since it was "NOT" me last, that means I don't SUCK! Woohoo!


Not a single one of you can issue - nor take - a hit. That's because you didn't learn your Siu Lum Tao right via constant repetition.

Ok. If you want to make sense, your next post better start like this: "SLT develops Iron Body by...".

But at least I don't SUCK!!! Yeah!!!

IronFist

[reneritchie]

> Siu Lien Tau has technics to break Iron vest or Iron Shirt or Goldern Bell Sheild.

I remember you demonstrating these to some of us at the LA Friendship Seminar. Of course, I also remember it went on until about 3am and I had to drag you out of John's room so we could get some darn sleep... BUT, next time I need a safe cracked, I'll try it out 8)

RR

[anerlich]

You guys (especially Mat and Ironfist and especially NOT Ironfist) all SUCK.

(Picks up bat and ball, sound of stamping footsteps, door slams. Muffled sobbing can be heard from behind door).

How old are you? 8? 9?


Not a single one of you can issue - nor take - a hit. That's because you didn't learn your Siu Lum Tao right via constant repetition.

Wrong, wrong and wrong. I boxed a few rounds with my Sifu this morning, I assure you he can issue hits and I can take 'em. ;)


You all know where to find me if you want to call me on this.

Ditto, I guess.

You're the one throwing the insults, making grandiose claims, and resorting to ad hominem attacks and appeals to authority (those "scores of Wing Chun masters" who were going to back you up - we're waiting!) because you can't back up your claims with logical argument or facts.

You sound pretty unreasonable over the web, Why would I want to seek you out in the flesh?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by reneritchie
> Siu Lien Tau has technics to break Iron vest or Iron Shirt or Goldern Bell Sheild.

I remember you demonstrating these to some of us at the LA Friendship Seminar. Of course, I also remember it went on until about 3am and I had to drag you out of John's room so we could get some darn sleep... BUT, next time I need a safe cracked, I'll try it out 8)

RR


When one discuss about those. One forget time. LOL :-)

[fa_jing]

You guyz are like so wrong. About the fish. Sounds like you only order in restaurants, buy fillets at the supermarket. Am I wrong?? :cool: When's the last time you had a fried crappie? (that's real, folks.) :D


SLT many times, much work over time with mental attention produces - Chi body?

[reneritchie]

fa_jing - cook my own. Lately I've been steaming with ginger and shallots, Chinese style. Quite good. I almost never eat friend foods, so I haven't crossed fins with the crappie yet. Almost tried skate wing yesterday, but they were out, so I settled for salmon again... LOL!

BTW- SLT many times, with gung-fu produces good SLT. Maybe Michael Jordan has good Chi (Air) Body though...

[fa_jing]

I caught a skate once off the coast of North Carolina, my wife made me clean it and we ate it stewed. Wierd tasting animal - no bones except for the backbone. Alright to try once. We just picked up Dungenese crabs for only $4 a pound from a Vietnamese market - half the price of anywhere else in the city. We like'em sauteed with ginger, garlic, olive oil, herbs.

threadHijack.end

[yuanfen]

smoked mullet from the Florida pan handle!
Carrabelle!
Or broiled Connecticutt shad or the roe of shad with eggs.
Or huge fresh shrimp from Rocky Point Mexico
Or good fresh cerviche.
Makes sense on this fishy thread!!

[Grendel]

Originally posted by reneritchie
fa_jing - cook my own. Lately I've been steaming with ginger and shallots, Chinese style. Quite good. I almost never eat friend foods, so I haven't crossed fins with the crappie yet. Almost tried skate wing yesterday, but they were out, so I settled for salmon again... LOL!

BTW- SLT many times, with gung-fu produces good SLT. Maybe Michael Jordan has good Chi (Air) Body though...
I once started a flame war by dissin' crappie on the Internet. Turns out the sunfish is a good catch in the US Midwest and South. Only gets a few inches long out here near me in Cali. "Settled for salmon"---LOL! I've got some Chinook living large in my backyard: aka: el Rio Guadalupe. Unfortunately, it's so loaded with Mercury, it glows in the dark. :)

I'll go along with the SLT supporters to say that years of daily SLT leads to improvement in one's Wing Chun. SLT, accept no substitutes. :)

Regards,

[HuangKaiVun]

Oopth!!!

I had a typo in my anti-Ironfist post.

My bad. Really.

[Gandolf269]

IronFist - "... that means I don't SUCK! Woohoo!"


Bustin' a gut, laughin' my a$$ off. Good job. As you can see, Arizona has some of the worst public schools in the U.S.

[yuanfen]

Gondolf;
Huang was not educated in Arizona.

[planetwc]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Gondolf;
Huang was not educated in Arizona.

Nor was he apparently educated on SLT! :rolleyes: