seminars

[madmanits]

This past weekend I was at a seminar . This was the first Kung Fu seminar that I have been to. I didn't know what quite to expect. We did some push hand drills. And evading drills. The seminar was very affordable at $50. For myself the seminar provided an oppertunity to see a different perspective on mantis fighting. The intent of this post is to find out what pmp have experinces at seminars what kind of drills were down and how they felt about their experince.

[Frogman]

Well I’m glad I didn’t spend the money to fly up and join in the fun. I once had an opportunity to partake in a seminar in BJJ given by Rickon Gracie, it was only $75.00 but I had just started BJJ so didn't feel that I would have gotten anything out of it and passed. In one of my other styles, I won’t say what the seminars cost, but they were not much more then a four hour intense work out and all I have to show now the revelation that “You can’t break a sponge with a punch, but you can cut it with a knife.” Um…ok??
Since I’ve been in TCKF I have taken a few seminars and was taught complete forms. This to me was well worth the time and money. The thing I like most is the forms were outside of the curriculum of the particular style I am training in. In fact I just learned a Plum Flower form, from what I understand it is one of the beginning forms in PFPM, called Jer Liu. This is exciting for me even if it is not a high level super form I got a chance to be exposed to something different. So I can relate with what your saying but can tell you not to be discouraged from taken seminars in the future. It may be a good idea to ask about what you can expect to learn before you sign up. If you have a chance to learn something your not going to learn in your regular class go for.

fm
RibHit

[BeiTangLang]

Yes,...you may have learned more new things from training with your Sifu, I will not dispute that. However, you need to evaluate other things as well: Did you know how other people moved or did their drills before the seminar? Even if you did not like what you learned, you _did_ learn how you do not like to train a specific drill. Also, anylize what about it you did or did not like. Write these things down in a notebook for later in your career when you just may look at them again & go" Ah,..I see what he meant by that" or, "I still don't like that drill". Either way, you learned it. $50 for a seminar too much?? What is the price of knowledge?
Best Wishes,
~BTL

[tanglangbaji]

I have been to many seminars, and hosted several over my 11 1/2 years in the martial arts, and here are a few of my observations.
1) If you think $50 is too much, think about this. My father is a DVM (dr. Vet. Medicine). He recently attended a intensive week long seminar on dental surgery. The seminar cost several thousand, and the equipment when he got back cost around four times as much. I asked him if he thought his money was spent wisely on this. He said he learned more than he could have asked for! Since this seminar over the summer he has made ALL his money back and then some. We martial artists often forget that the people we support at seminars, or even our own teachers are for the most part "professionals" in their field. Martial arts have traditionaly been looked down upon by norm society as a common mans practice, or what poor people do to kill time. I do not agree with either. These men and women are sharing years of trained, disciplined knowledge with us. $50 bucks (Canadian????) for four hours is nothing! Now whether or not you feel it was worth it........
2) Seminars are tricky when it comes to someone teaching them. But I think if you learned one new thing then the money and time was well spent. We cannot always blame the teacher for what we picked up. Your learning style, maturity, knowledge base, and how much you practice are all factors in how much you will retain. I for instance can learn a whole form in a few hours. But then I go right home and go over it until I am sick of it! Constant repetition. But I learn quickly too. I think it is wise to evaluate who is teaching what, and if you will have enough time to learn something in a short amount of time. It sounds like this was a real general seminar that just covered some aspects of mantis.
We must always be mindful of our strengths and weakness'. Afterall that is what the martial arts are really about, self guidance, self improvement, and most importantly self honesty! Learn from your experiences and mistakes! I like what the others have posted, write down what was good and bad. Analyze, analyze, analyze! Hope I helped more than hurt.

[woliveri]

tanglangbaji,
I don't think there is any way you can possibly equate a Western DVM with MA. The two are entirely different in that the producers of the DVM Seminar have worked hard to create the product and techniques they are selling. They are proud of their work and are happy to release it to those willing to pay for it. They are also not afraid to explain their techniques ad nausium to the interested party. On the other hand, In the CMA and TCM arena there are still many, many who hide their techniques and keep secret their skills. I was speaking to a Doctor of Chinese Medicine just this week and we were talking about a TCM school in the area which he attended. He was certian that the teachers were teaching the minimum or just above to get the student to pass their state exams. And he was Chinese. After graduating from this school this doctor went to Taiwan to a friend to really learn. The instructors, to which these students have intrusted their faith that they are being taught the best of their ability are being given the short end of the stick. I have seen this in the MA and Qi Gong as well.

I have seen very, very few MA/Qi Gong instructors give willingly and freely.

[Dachengdao]

Greetings KFO friends!
Thanks to Madmantis for starting this interesting thread. Frogman and Tanglang gave some good advice for getting the most for your money and BeiTang is right - What price is Knowledge? Woliveri is equally correct about Masters not teaching real kungfu. As a master who conducts workshops and seminars myself, I thought you guys might like to hear form the "other side".
I've only been in the US for less than two years. What a culture shock to see how masters are treated here (or rather mistreated)! And what a greater shock to see how some so-called masters manipulate their students and take them for every cent they can get from them without giving them anything substantial in return. I tried to maintain my traditional ways of teaching, but I went broke pretty fast. Seminars, workshops, private lessons, selling videos - all of these are western buisiness tactics that I have recently adopted just to be able to pay the rent. I see some of my peers "living large" and I wonder why people are paying them so much money when their kungfu is only so-so. Then I see others who have very good kungfu, but are living near poverty because they have no sense of western business tactics.
In China, a master only has to worry about teaching kungfu. Students and even the community (if you come from a small village as I did) take care of the daily needs. Students revere their master and treat him with the utmost respect. A master never is allowed to pick up the tab in a resturant, and a student never visits the master empty-handed. No one speaks while the master is speaking, and students always show humility and gratitude.
As much as I disdain "business kungfu", where a master takes a student for a ride without giving real kungfu, or only giving the bare minimum, I understand the frustration of giving my heart and soul to certain students who are actually studying with a "brand name" master and are using me to gain a higher position with their other master, or to hone their skills for competitions which they usually win or place and give me no credit;or to certain students that don't appreciate the real meaning of kungfu as self defense and health enhancer. I've been burned a few times, but I just choose to go forward and not hold against everyone what a few bad apples have done. Some masters can't get past that.
My advice is to do your homework before taking a seminar or class. Sometimes a seminar or workshop is a good way to try out the master before committing to taking classes or private lessons. Ask around, go in person to visit the master's school, talk to students, or better yet - ask right here on the KFO forums.
I send out my thanks to Tanglangbaji who's setting up a seminar for me Nov 2 & 3 in New Mexico. ;)
I also have a question for Frogman - who's your plum blossom teacher and where is he located? Tell me what you know of his lineage - maybe I know him or his teacher.

[yu shan]

Dachengdao

Can you share what we are to espect with your seminar in November? Please be specific.

[Skarbromantis]

Dachengdao- Very good post, thank you for sharing that, many nights I have gone over the same thoughts, myself I am no ware near close to being able to teach, but when I think about the future, one day I would like to teach what I have learned, will I be able to do it full time and support myself, with out, as I call it "selling out" to western business tactics, kids class, belt ranks, tapes and seminars, my love of the art is too deep to make a profit from it, and good student are hard to find, anyways it was refreshing to hear your point of view, thank you again.

Skard1

[woliveri]

Dachengdao,
I must complement you on your English for the short period of being in the US. I hope my Chinese will be as good one day.

[Dachengdao]

Thank you to Skabro and Woliveri for the kind comments! To Yu Shan, thanks for asking about my seminar. It is a Dachengquan Seminar. Day 1 is an overview of this little known art which is new to America (I am the lineage holder, inherited from Wang Xianzhai by Wang XuanJie,who was my teacher). We will study and practice standing postures, walking postures, breathing, vocalizations, self-defense and health applications. Day 2 will be Push Hands where participants can test what they have learned the previous day as well as their cumulative martial arts experiences. For more information, take a look at Tanglangbaji's thread "Dachengquan Seminar" in the Internal Arts Forum. I would just like to emphasize that Dachengquan can be studied not only alone, but also in conjunction with any other style. I used it to enhance my mantis (I am also lineage holder of the Hao Family Northern Plum Blossom). Dachengquan is similar to Yiquan, which is better known here. I wrote a few threads on Dachengquan, also in the Internal Arts forum section if you care to look at them to see what it's all about. I welcome any comments or questions you may have.:)

[Ye Gor]

Dachengdao, I feel compelled to go one step further than wolivery and simply express AMAZEMENT at the quality of your written English. It's easily the best on the whole of KFO forums. Less than 2 years in US and you came from a small village in China? I understand it is in bad taste to question a master, but just can not help it, please forgive me... what is your secret? Did you spend several years in England or something like that?

[BeiTangLang]

K guys,...a compliment or two is fine, but you are getting away from the thread topic. PM the guy for further compliments & such.
Thank you for your cooperation;
~BTL

[mantis108]

Personally, I don't feel that seminars, videos and all the business things mean selling out. Not when it is done with care, effort and details. The only sell out is when the producer(s) is/are knowingly attempt to hide the real thing or lack thereof. I think seminars are like little programs or little lessons that you put together to best represent or best showcase your style or yourself. The same is with videos. So if you are really going to do a seminar or a video, you must let peolpe get the little lessons that you intended to teach. That way the audience, who would be potential students, leave with something which they have paid for. We can argued that it's art, therefore, we can't put a price tag on art. But we also have to remember that Kung Fu is also science. If there are school (even universities) out there that can sell you education (both art and science disciplines), there is no excuse for Kung Fu not to do the same. If the master is not prepare to "give" out stuff, then he should just not do it at all, period! All I am saying is good business is about honest merchants, who has the duty of care, and wise consumers who stand up for their own rights. Anytime you have an inbalance you will have bad deal, which I will not want to be part of. If we don't understand this, the quality of Kung Fu product out there will always be less than ideal. I think we need to "educate" the masters on this as well (as the promoters). That's the only way you will get quality stuff. It is not just to sell a bad bill of goods, nor is it just to suffer in silence that being sold one.

Mantis108

[Frogman]

Cultural differences I’m sure are a big factor. Respect is shown in a different manner here then in China, no doubt. If someone is training in CMA they will have to learn a little bit about Chinese culture since they are so deeply connected, but at the end of the day we’re still in the US. I have a great deal of respect for my Sifu and SiGung and appreciate the opportunity to learn the art. I feel I am fortune to have a good Sifu, I have learned from several instructors in varies styles and can tell you finding a good teacher can be harder then finding a good student. There are a lot of MA schools in the phone book and you don’t always get what you pay for.
As for the Plum Flower question I will have to follow up and get back with you. I am looking forward to hearing your input.


RibHit
fm
:cool:

[Dachengdao]

Good posts, guys! Two questions:
First to Mantis 108 - The only way to educate bad masters is to stop the money that's coming in; the only way to stop the money coming in is to educate the student. How can students know when they're being ripped off?
Next to Frogman - Cultural differences make for a wide gap; who's responsible for forging the bridge to cross that gap - the master or the student? The Chinese master would say the student should be the one to accommodate him out of respect. The American student would say he's paying good money to the master, so if the master wants to continue to get paid then he needs to assimilate. Assuming both are equally correct in their point-of-view from a cultural stand point, how do we reconcile these fundamental differences?

[mantis108]

Thanks. I agreed being savvy in "shopping" for a master is a good start. In fact, a lot of the potential students do researches before settling with a master these days. However, that's not enough. I believe there is a missing piece. We need a group of dedicated people, not necessarily masters or teachers but definately must have planty of martial experiences, as the go betweener of the masters and the student masses. Sometime this role could be full filled by the media. But I believe it would be much better if the Kung Fu community can have such a group of people (embassadors if you will) because they would know what is needed to be addressed. Like you have mentioned TanglangBaji is acting in such a capacity. We just need more people like him.

Regards

Mantis108

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by Dachengdao
Cultural differences make for a wide gap; who's responsible for forging the bridge to cross that gap - the master or the student? The Chinese master would say the student should be the one to accommodate him out of respect.
Dachengdao, cultural differences (and similarities) are interesting and important to me. I shall now stick my neck out and suggest a bit of some very old (Western) wisdom: "When in Rome, do like the Romans." That does not mean 'sell out' or 'compromise' or 'be traitor to your ways'. In any case, my suggestion for the 'bridge': do it the Chinese way when in China (or Taiwan), do it the American way when in the US.

Chinese masters come over here and expect Americans to become Chinese. How unwise. If an American went to China and suggested the opposite, I think likely the Chinese master would be insulted. Why is it they expect the very same from Americans?

And another thing (something I've wondered about for many years): why is it that MA Masters expect so much respect? This is your quote: "In China, a master only has to worry about teaching kungfu. Students and even the community (if you come from a small village as I did) take care of the daily needs. Students revere their master and treat him with the utmost respect. A master never is allowed to pick up the tab in a resturant, and a student never visits the master empty-handed. No one speaks while the master is speaking, and students always show humility and gratitude."

I have at first thought that perhaps it had to do with old age. Often, MA masters are fairly advanced in age. But no. I've learned that the age is only a part of it. MA masters realy do expect to be treated very differentially just because they are MA masters.

My question is this: what have they done that is so much more than masters of science or engineering or art? In the Western culture, at least in modern times, it is considered very poor taste for someone who is great (I exclude celebrities) to expect preferential treatment. I am currently working on a masters degree (nothing to do with being a Master) in engineering. Some of my professors are brilliant and have been involved in groundbreaking research for many years. There is a professor who teaches physics to freshmen who won a Noble prize last year. Believe me, he doesn't expect any gifts from the kids that come to argue about some points they lost on a test. Nobody jumps to take care of their daily needs. And yet all these guys have worked very, very hard (many sleepless nights and gray hairs) in the course of their work. They are respected for their achievements. But they are not idolized. So then, what is it that makes MA masters so much more special? (I say this without ill will, but with a mind to search for truth. Which can often be unpleasant. Sorry for the long tirade, wanted to leave little room for ambiguity.)

[Frogman]

In the US everything is commercialized and to succeed in any market you have to adapt to the environment your in. This adaptation is just the next step in the evolution of kung fu. I don’t think it’s hard to see why MA masters expect so much respect since through out history they were the staple in most small villages. (I have never lived in a village personal). At one time, from what I understand, MA masters were more of a center icon of the community, the master represented the strength and wisdom of the village. This would have commended a great deal of respect. Back to the US our culture has developed a more independent and individualized society. So who closes the gap and who crosses the bridge?? The master may have to build the bridge but it is the student that must cross it. That bridge in the US is a sign that catches the eye a of potential students but they still have to walk through the door.

If nothing else you respect the MA master because your physics teacher isn’t going to kick the crap out of you for talking back.

RibHit
fm

[Tainan Mantis]

Yegor,
The respect for teachers in Taiwan isn't just for MA teachers.
It is a respect that all teachers get.
Even the old guy who teaches roller skating to little kids in the park is revered.
Heck, he gets more respect than most MA masters get in the states.

When I first arrived in Taiwan and was teaching English to hundreds of kids a week parents would pick up my meal tab without even telling me all the time.
When I went to pay the boss said," Oh, it has been taken care of."

Most of the time the parents assess the teacher's skill by how well the kids do on tests or how much they enjoy the classes.

[Dachengdao]

Maybe I can't agree with you, but it was well written and thought-provoking. Frogman and Tainen were much more eloquent in their replies than I could have been, so I'll second their views. I just want to point out that professional athletes (EXCEPT martial artists) and movie stars here get more respect than anyone else anywhere else in the world. WHY?!? They are the ones idolized and worshiped like gods. As a master, I'm of course biased in my views that masters don't get enough respect here, but I'm convinced we contribute more to society than mere entertainment. Anyway, you yourself should be commended for the pursuit of your Master's! Good luck with your studies!!!:cool:

[Dachengdao]

Your reply made me think...what about a governing board or licensing procedure for Masters? What does everyone else think about this?

[mantis108]

You came from China and I came from HK. We both know that Chinese are one of the worst bunch when it comes to politics. Beside I don't have faith in any government. To me, any governing body has no real place in the arts. Remember how we got the Wushu fiesco that is still going on in the first place. That's the brain [b@st@rded] child of PRC. Do you want that being a traditionally trained master? The Ching Wu association Concept was a great idea. Too bad the "government" didn't have the wit to embrace it; or was it politics? The only capacity the government should and could be is being the benefactor of martial arts. That means providing resources (and you wonder what's your tax dallors are for?) for the development of martial arts without [minimal] interference. That is also a strong signal of investing in the intellectual properties and as well as health of its own people. Unfortunately, investing in strong/smart people (therefore a strong nation) would be deemed as upsetting the balance of power to the government. Only the Republic of China was "crazy" enough to do it. ;) BTW, what's the difference between buying a master's licence and a black belt or Sokeship? I don't mean to offend anyone, so I apologize in advance. In the government's eye that's no more than processing a user's fee. IMHO there is no substantial meaning to it. I think the best way is to have a foundation fund (an institution) that can influence or persuade the masters to open up their minds. If they have certain securities in their living, perhaps they will be more willing to share the real knowledge.

Regards

Mantis108

PS I think Bruce Lee's estate has set up one like that.

[Ye Gor]

Mantis108, I think your theory is great, but there is no practical implementation in the real world. For many reasons.

Tainan, perhaps you misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about respect just for teachers. That was an example 'cause I'm in school at the moment. I'd met several successful and hardworking (and contributing to the community) proffessionals in my professional life. Like I said before: lots of hard work, lots of care for their job, lots of integrity. My question remains: why does a MA master deserve more respect than these other people?

The only answer that makes sense to me is: because MA masters are wise. Is that really true? Not always. In fact, just the fact that many of them *expect* respect shows they are not all that wise.

Dachengdao, you do not agree with me, but you come from a culture that does not agree with me. All cultures have flaws (and all patriots are very good at bashing the flaws of other cultures and defending their own... not saying you're like that).

(Frogman, MA masters weren't always leaders of a community. Sometimes they were, that's fine, but sometimes 'the mayor' knew nothing about MA and was still wise enough to lead the village. And your point about respect to avoid a beating is a joke, right?)

As to super-athletes and other celebrities... well, I think they're more idolized than respected. But then, everybody deserves some respect for getting to the top of whatever they do. I'll give them that, and I'll marvel at their natural abilities... and that's that. They are pop-culture heroes and 'belong' to the masses, let's leave them out of this discussion.

Personally, I think there is a bit of idolizing of MA teachers by their students as well. Anyway, it seems to me respect for MA masters has purely psychological reasons, as well as reasons rooted in practicality. If someone is interested in this topic, let's continue, otherwise I'll drop it.

[mantis108]

Hi Ye Gor,

Kung Fu masters were once revered not just because of the skills that they have. It is not because of their ability or willingness to teach MA skills neither. It is because they were once upon a time true heros like the military officiers, policemen, doctors, councilors etc... all in one. Take Wong Fei Hung for example, he taught and organzied the local militia. Sometime he acted as a go betweener for the government and the people or he serve as an unofficiated majestray for minor dispute. He practiced medicine (sometime even give out medicine for free). As the same time, he's teaching Kung Fu so that there is a proper place for local youth to hang out so they don't turn into thugs. He was not the only Sifu that was like that. That is why they got the respect in their community. But in the developed country such as the US of A, you can be a pop culture icon/hero if you can crash on skate board without killing yourself. A lot of people don't regard the firemen or policemen as heroes, because they are Civil servants who got paid for their jobs. But in truth, they risk their lives regardless. So there are big cultural differences and appreciation of heroism.

Mantis108

[Dachengdao]

Originally posted by Ye Gor

Dachengdao, you do not agree with me, but you come from a culture that does not agree with me. All cultures have flaws (and all patriots are very good at bashing the flaws of other cultures and defending their own... not saying you're like that).

Well, actually I am. I love America, but I AM Chinese, afterall.


(Frogman, ... And your point about respect to avoid a beating is a joke, right?)

It was funny, Frogman!


As to super-athletes and other celebrities... well, I think they're more idolized than respected. But then, everybody deserves some respect for getting to the top of whatever they do.

Like Grandmasters?


Personally, I think there is a bit of idolizing of MA teachers by their students as well. Anyway, it seems to me respect for MA masters has purely psychological reasons, as well as reasons rooted in practicality. If someone is interested in this topic, let's continue, otherwise I'll drop it. [/B]

No don't drop it! You have given us all some food for thought.

[Ye Gor]

I think cops and firemen are heroes. I know others think so as well. (BTW, they certainly don't enjoy the hero status in China.)

Wong Fei Hung sounds like a righteous fellow. But I know for a fact other MA masters don't come close to what you've described. To claim that all MA masters are like that is just too unbelievable. And certainly not in this day and age.

Anyway, I started a new thread on this.

I think this thread is basically: how to get the best out of a seminar / how to know the seminar is woth it's beans.

I don't have a good answer for that. I have a very good teacher and I just stick with him and his kung-fu brother. How did I find this good teacher? Introduced through another good teacher... pure luck, in a way.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I think that Woliveri has a point.. Masters are respected according to their deeds. I'm sure that each of us has seen both sides of the coin.. self-proclaimed masters that embarrass the art and others that, by their mere presence, evoke awe and inspiration. Westerners are pragmatists, we tend to say "show me, don't tell me".. I have been fortunate to train with several Masters that offered all that i could absorb, others that trifled with students as though they were a necessary nuisance.. you can imagine where my respect was placed.

That a Master would hide some aspects of their art is unfortunate.. My closest experience is with GrandMaster Chan Pui, he has chosen to fragment his teachings .. giving certain students/sifus differing pieces of the system and some pieces not given at all.. the end result is that the system will never be what it was.. the legacy of Chan Pui's system will be fragmented and diluted, in fact, some of the system will be lost when he joins his ancestors.. In his own words "i make it easier for westerners to learn" (a value judgment not always rooted in accuracy). I have personally seen him change forms to suit the student's ability to learn (or his impatience at the students progress).. in either case the system suffers.

Now, from my own perspective, the Master's role is to promote the system he professes.. to ensure its survival, to enhance its reputation and, ultimately, to push the student beyond the Masters own abilities, then, the system prospers.. toward that end, if the Master chooses to bring it to a different culture, compromises of culture for both are to be expected. Respect, by western standards, may appear differently than that of Oriental standards.. yet be equal in the heart of the student. Would i protect the master with my life, yes!! If asked to submit to some absurd training practice, yes!! Offer my own costly professional services at no cost, absolutely!!.. but, in return i expect the Master to uphold the role of "Master".. a bargain not always balanced.

Respect is indeed "earned".. respect that is "expected" is shallow at its conception. By western standards respect is a two way street, a mutual acknowledgment.. the Master earns the student's respect and likewise respects the student's choosing to invest time, money and hard work into the Master's system.. this is "balance"...

Just another perspective from the Far-side.. be well..