Getting flow/continuity

[Kaitain(UK)]

Hi chaps - not posted for a while as I took a 2 month break from training whilst I decided what I was trying to achieve

Anyway - I've found that the break did me a lot of good (my conditioning was shot though - nearly broke my wrist on the bag) - I've been able to isolate a lot of problems that I was unaware of before.

One thing that still eludes me (been training Taiji for nearly 4 years now) is flow. I still go through the form movement by movement - I don't feel that I'm pausing between postures, but I do feel like I'm hiccupping/breaking after each movement. For example - if I'm going from single whip to raise hands I complete the single whip, and then break before I drive into raise hands.

I've recorded myself doing it and it isn't visually obvious, but I can feel it happening. I thought maybe it's just where my waist has recoiled after the strike - to go into raise hands I need to turn my waist clockwise again, so maybe the break is just the waist reversing direction. I certainly don't feel dead or double weighted...

comments?

[Lisa]

Is it your movement that doesn't feel fluid enough, or is it your breathing?

[Kaitain(UK)]

the movement, although I guess the breathing is involved too as the end of one posture is marked by the end of exhaling

maybe the pause coincides with the transition from exhaling to inhaling

right, just did a posture or two - I think the pause I'm feeling is actually the change in breathing

I think :)

[HuangKaiVun]

Is this the modern day (as in Red China) Yang 24 or 48 or 108 you are practicing, Kaitain?

Remember that those are COMPETITION forms designed to maximize degree of difficulty.

Traditional Taiji is much less ornate and is, in my opinion, easier on the practitioner

[taijiquan_student]

Have you done lots of holding postures, like zhan zhuang using the form postures? sometimes a big emphasis on holding in your practice can make you pause in between movements. Also, what I do if I feel like things aren't flowing well is try not to think of the form as "postures" but "movements".

Huang--how are the gov. routines more difficult? I've never seen them before. Just rough pictures in some books and on the net.

[GLW]

Actually, the 24 Posture form was designed to be easier. The bad romanization of the name besides 24 Posture is Chien Hua Taijiquan - Simple Taijiquan...

It has easier stepping for Gong bu. the wave hands mechanics is simpler, the routine is shorter and less complex.

48 Posture was designed to be more challenging than 24 and to give an exposure to the various traditional styles. It is a good routine to get a flavor of the other styles ...helps a lot if figuring out if you want to study one of them or not.

108...not sure what that one is..but you may mean 88. This routine is, to be blunt, a rip off of traditional Yang style...with some strangeness.

42 is the competition routine. It DOES have some level of difficulty moves in it....but overall, it is not that difficult of a routine.

I personally find that doing traditional Yang WELL is much more difficult...but then again, doing traditional Yang poorly is very very easy.

The 42 sword...now THAT is a more difficult sword routine...but it is very well constructed. Of the new routines, it has more traditional flavor than most of the others and virtually no fluff at all.

There are competition routines for Yang, Chen, Sun, and Wu styles. The Sun is a decent routine and close in flavor and method to the traditional set. Chen is not a bad routine.

The Wu routine is a little strange in some places....haven't really made up my mind on it....

The Yang routine...it is (IMHO) just plain bad. It does NOT have the flavor of Yang style. While the other three have virtually no movements that you do not find in the traditional sets, the Yang set has things I have never seen in ANY Yang long form. It is basically hard to look at and does not flow well.

[Kaitain(UK)]

I do traditional Yang family 108

yes I train/ed all of my postures as standing post

I've done the form a few times since posting and really examined what I'm doing - the pause seems to be a result of recoiling the waist and then rotating again for the next posture/movement. I guess if I want to flow more I'll have to reduce this - I think I'm overexaggerating it. I'm doing the same amount of rotation and recoil that I do if I'm actually striking with fajing.

I know it's hard for you to say without seeing my movement, but I think that I'm just opening and closing as I should be.

Finding it hard to find the right words - when I train the form it's like I have a slide show in my head. So as I complete a movement there is a mental pause as I move to the next 'slide'. Does this sound familiar? If so is it something that reduces over the years?

[eulerfan]

Kaitain,

Speed it up. My instructor tells us that we shoudl vary our speed to work on different things. I do 24 postures the rate he has us go at makes it last about 8 minutes. I don't know how long a 108 form lasts.

He says, if you feel your balance is suffering, it will help to slow down to a ten minute run. If you feel you aren't getting the flow, if it feels like you keep pausing, it will help to speed up to a 6 minute run.

I don't know but it's worth a try, right?

[Kaitain(UK)]

s'worth a shot - I'll let y'all know on Monday

[Walter Joyce]

I also do Yang 108(although chen is becoming more and more attractive), and heres my $.02.

As you do your form, rather than the images of the slides, try focusing on the thought, as one movement ends, the next begins.
It works for me.

I also struggled for smooth flow, btw, and found focusing on this thought as a useful tool to reach it.

[josh_f]

In my own experience a staccato form is the result of not using the dantien to completely power your movements. I know you think it's because you're over exaggerating the dantien movement, but this is like sinking too much into the kua-- it can be done, but only by people who are really skilled. Your waist should move the same amount when you perform a move with or without fa-jing. This is a key point in internal arts there is no structural difference between movements that issue and movements that don't. As is often pointed out all the movements in the form can be performed with fa-jing. Unfortunately what is not said is that there is no real change in the movement. A key reason why I believe you are not using your dantien as much as you think, is that you are recoiling your waist and then rotating it again. You should never have to do this. The whole point of moving with the dantien is that the dantien rotates 360 degrees, and therefore at any point in the movement you are already loaded. In other words if you stop half-way through a move you should be able to issue. Having to recoil is often a sign of one of the following: not sinking into the kua, twisting the hips, being double weighted, or the dantien being "dead".
If I were you I wouldn't worry about trying to figure out what your doing wrong in eachmovement. Instead, I would work on improving the movement as a whole. The form, in my experience, is not a very good tool for doing this. This is especially true for the yang form which in my opinion is an advanced form. The best exercises for improving dantien movement are silk reeling/pulling exercises.
Personally I would (and when I had this problem did) use Feng Zhi Qiang's silk reeling set http://www.silkreeler.com/articles/silkreeling_names.shtml . Note: I'm not affiliated with FZQ. I had a similar problem about two years ago . So, I stopped practicing form, and began doing FZQ's silk reeling, and the taiji ball for an hour and a half a day. In about three months I began to see improvements and today my form flows. Of course now I have a whole different set of problems.

[Kumkuat]

Hey josh, are you the student of Terry Chan? I think I remember you. Anyway, how can the dantien rotate 360 degrees? I find it physically impossible. What are the taiji ball exercises you talk about? Thanks.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

How is your quality of release after a movement is finished? Perhaps a clearer dissolve would allow better flow. The Tissue often opens to express a Jin and then contracts to allow to allow the space for another to emerge. Yin and Yang after all...

[Wongsifu]

The reason you still practice it cut up is because in your mind you learnt it like that, cut up.

if you look at traditional forms say siu lim tao you build a few moves on it every lesson or every week or whenever and you learn those moves and build up with a few new moves but in your head all of these moves flow because they are short moves one tan sau one pak sau one huen sao , repeated on the other side.

whereas in taiji when you learn a move its a series of moves that lasts maybe 30 seconds so you see it as one move and the transition between that one move and the next is obvious , whereas because the transition between huen sau and tan sao in siu lim tao isnt obvious, because the pause is equal length.

The easiest way is to focus on the parts where the changeover is and just do the isolated moves one after the other as if its a new mini move, for example in 24 form you start with lifting water thats one move and then the left hand goes underneath left leg pulls in and you start a new move which in fact is a series of moves which lasts 30 seconds , isolate the switch over point and practise it repeateadly as if to make a new ""Joining"" part of the form and you will notice the form has no more mental breaks in it.

[josh_f]

Kumkuat,

Yes, I train with Terry Chan. I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage, when did we meet? You're not Zach by chance?

Re rotating the dantien: Remember the dantien is not the same as the waist. rotating ones waist 360 degrees would be physically impossible. The dantien, however, moves as a result of two straight lines. One is the opening from one kua and closing into the other kua.( think dantien change/single whip from laojia). The second comes from bowing and unbowing the back and opening and closing into both kuas (think squatting monkey/ or the opening of laojia). By combining these two straight lines the dantien moves 360 degrees and the body will always be stored for a release. If your in the Bay Area I'll be glad to show you what I mean. To do this does take a fair amount of work, I recently took a six month hiatus, after which I couldn't move my dantien at all. It's taken me about eight months to be able to move from my middle again.

Re: Taiji ball: I do Chen Qingzhou's taiji ball set-- http://www.nnrs.org/sphere.html

As I'm sure you know there's nothing magical about this set. Theoretically you could probable get the same workout with a good spear. I like the taiji sphere set for several reasons. First, you don't have to worry about bringing the jing to the tip of spear, and correspondingly the ball requires less spiraling . This means one can concentrate on moving the dantien. Second, the heavier weight of the ball provides more feed back then the lighter spear. I have a really nice spear that probable weighs close to ten pounds, but I prefer the feed back from my sixteen pound bowling ball. Third, there are several exercises the ball provides that I don't think can be duplicated with the spear. The exercises I'm thinking of are those that require rotating the ball in a vertical plain and those which require grounding the weight of the ball while standing on one leg. Over all my experience has beenthat the balll is the quickest way to strengthen f the dantien. For developing finesse, or coiling, I prefer the spear.

--josh

[Kumkuat]

actually josh, I never met you. I just remember you writing that you learn from Terry Chan from this board. And I remember that because Terry is one of the list moderators of the neijia list. I would love to go west coast and meet you so you guys can show me stuff, but I'm in the east coast. So I'm more of a Yan Gaofei groupie.

Anyway, I understand the 2 directions the dantien can move. So you're saying that if you add the degrees that the dantien 'rotates' in the horizontal and vertical plane, they can add up to 360?

I once tried to do some spear shaking. I don't know if I'm good enough to try it. I can probably get my jin to the tip, but I don't have the store and release part down right. Do you think if one gets a spear and practices it slowly, it'll come? Or do you think one should do more empty hand practice before diving into the cool shaking part?

[neptunesfall]

try practicing it slow enough that the pause you take becomes the natural timing of the transitions.
as a basic example, lets say that the pause between move a and move b is 1 second, but it should be 0.5 seconds. slow down move a and move b to where the 1 second pause becomes equalized with the rest of the movements.
doing forms (tai chi, n shaolin and shuai chiao) this way has helped me out a great deal.
as i became more proficent at linking the movements more fluidly, my speed in doing them increased. i can now do some of my n shaolin forms almost at a running speed.

[josh_f]

kumquat,

re moving the dantien:

Perhaps I was unclear. The dantien actually moves 360 degrees. If I tape a pen to my dantien I can draw spirals on a sheet paper by moving my dantien (and not my legs, hips or buttocls which would be cheating). My point with the two straight lines was that the dantien's movment is a vector resulting from these two lines. Maybe this is not a good way of explaining it (it falls dangerously close to the reductionistic physics of taji explainations). Perhaps a better way of explaining is if you can perform these movements then rotating the dantien becomes a matter of syncing the movements up. Sort of like learningto sync ones head turn with ones stroke when learning to swim.

re: spear training:

In my opinion the best way to learn any neijia art is to practice many different exercises until uncovering the core similarities in each exercise. In the neijia arts there is only one way to move, unfortuantely that one way is obscurred. The best way to figure out what it is you want to do, is look at it from many different angles. To do this you must often approach training methods from a perspectiive which they were not intended. IMHO a common stumbling block for people is understanding the way you use an exercise changes based on your experience. For instance standing, at high levels standing is a conditioning exercise designed to strenghten neijin. At low levels however standing is for developing leg strength, learning how to sink into the kua, and to show the student the proper way to hold their body. So my recomendation is go ahead and do the spear. Keep in mind that your level the spear should not be a conditioning tool. When shake the spear make sure you maintian jin through out the movement. make sure your always stored, make sure your hands don't go past your knees, make sure you don't collapse your legs, or lean onto the spear. Make sure you do all this at reasonable speed. If you want to go slowly a couple times thats fine, but try and do at least five reptitions at normal speed for every slow one you do. At first it will be frustrating, but as long as you actively concentrate on what you are doing wrong, and aren't approaching it passively (as though you were lifting weights) you will over time be able to improve the quality of your movement. The example I like to use is tennis players. How often do tennis players sit and slowly practice their strokes, compare that to how often they practice at full speed. In taiji are designed to be performed slowly, but the spear is essiantlly fa-jin training which means it should be performed at speed.

--josh

[dre_doggX]

Try reviewing the Tai chi Classics/Treatises, this my help, but also not that in every yang movement turns into a yin movement when your YI(intent) wishes to do so, so as you do a breathing out coordinate your Yi (intent) with you jing and breathing, and your dantein/ entire body, Relax but keep structure, BUT AS SOON AS THE YANG MOVEMENT IS DONE, You YI then switches to your Yin Movement.

you see in order for you body to do what your yi most follow.

Another thing when you breath not that at the end of ever yang movement there is a yin movement and they are better when can shorten the gap between the (MAKING THEM ONE MOVEMENT)



I GOT IT,, MAYBE YOU NEED SUNG/ SOONG, ( it means something like relaxation)



THIS IS WHAT I FOUND REALLY WORKS WHEN EVER I cant do a move right.


I GO INTO REPTILE BRAIN MODE. (do laugh it works.)

WHAT Is the Reptile Brain?

download the book reptile violence at this site.

http://www.taijiworld.com/download/Free_books.htm

I think I remember you, you are the one who said that Everything in Wing CHun can be found in TaiJi, and you had a Tai Chi friend who is doing Wing Chun and his Tai CHi skills stopped improving.


ha really read this. starting at page 34 if your impateint.

The reptile brain, reverts to instect, that is more use in Internal martial arts then external martial arts

[I.M. Toast]

I put some mail in your box.

[Kaitain(UK)]

thanks a lot for everyone's input

I guess I'd better work on the silk-reeling then

I tried the slower movement thing before but just found it made the pause less noticeable but it's still there - I think it must be something technical.

I also liked the idea of treating the links as movements of themselves - gotta be worth a try...


It's not relaxation, and it's not mindset - I think as someone else pointed out, it's a case of me still training how I was taught the form and needing to start making it my own.

Plenty to work on anyway

Josh - are there any online video resources for those silk-reeling exercises? I have a few that I've been taught but I'm always interested in more

[RAF]

More stance work and stronger legs.

I've seen a lot of students over the years and many have strong legs, but lack the type of strong legs that utilize the minor leg muscles required to effectively perform the traditional Chinese martial arts forms and movements. Eg, weightlifters who can squat with a heill of a lot of weight ache like heill when they try some Yang's taiji and single moving postures. Worse is that many assume its flexibility that lacks and they spend far too much time stretching when they should be strength training (this was pointed out to me by a doctor of applied kinesiology).

I find that the upper body tends to be somewhat disconnected from the legs. However, a good focus on stance work for 12 months or more really improves their ability to execute a form with flow.

But fair warning, the stance work must be the major part of your training and few people will do it. Say, for a 60 minute workout, can you devote 30 or 40 minutes to stance work?

I read from a couple of sources that initially Yang taiji players would learn one posture a month and train in the stance work of that posture along with using it as a single moving exercise. You also can learn applications better through single posture training. Associates who attended seminars given Ben Lo say he uses stance work in the short form.

Once the stance work is completed (well, you always must train in it but you can change it proportional usage) you might add staff and/or dao training to further coordinate upper and lower body. Later you can add spear and jian forms and training.

[Kaitain(UK)]

you sound like my instructor :) - regardless of the issue raised:

"more QiGong"

[RAF]

Kaitain:

Interestingly my teacher never uses the words qi gong or nei gong. In our stance work breathing is critical for relaxation.

In our baji and bagua practice, relaxed deep breathing while in the posture (baji, with breath to 8 structural points. Bagua, standing post with upper body variations of the 8 Mother Palms).

Later.

[josh_f]

kaitain,

Video tapes of FZQ's silk reeling set are available here: http://www.silkreeler.com/materials/

There are also some tapes of good material available at:
http://www.neijia.com

I'd look at the Chen Xiao Wang Silk reeling tape, the Li TaiLiang Shanxi Xingyi Internal Exercises/Six Harmony Set, and the Mike Sigman Internal basics tapes which I've heard is quite good. There is also a tape by Chen Qingzhou which contains a demo of the ball set I practice. Keep in mind that is a demo, so it's difficult to figure out what he is doing.

Caveat emptor. Although I'm familiar with some of this material ( FZQ's silk reeling set, CXW's silk reeling set, Li TaiLiang's internal exercises) I've never seen these any of these tapes. The only tape I have seen is the one by CQZ which is a good laojia tape but all the other exercises are simple demos.

--josh

[Kaitain(UK)]

thanks Josh - I'll take a look at them

RAF - he could just just as easily say 'more Standing Post'. In my practice it's all stance work with breathing control and mindfullness. I do 6 palm positions with that - head height palms facing me (ward off), head height palms facing out, then waist height palms up and palms down, then palms out at chest out (An) and then what can only be described as the 'armchair position', forearms parallel to floor. I'm sure there are meaningful delineations between Standing Post and QiGong - I thought Standing Post was just a subset of QiGong. If I'm wrong - sorry :)

Afraid I don't get what you describe in the Baji, 'breath to 8 structural points' - could you elaborate please?

To the Earle people - do you think the 'Reptile Brain' idea basically equates to the classics 'gaze of an eagle' and intention/mindfulness? I know my wife won't look at me whilst I'm training the form as she says I look 'like a lunatic' (this may be genetic). To me it sounds like a catch-all term for what is being emphasised in the classic. With a bit of romanticising :)

[josh_f]

Re standing post:

I'm afraid, I disagree with the idea that stance work will help increase the continuity of ones forms. Stance work certainly has value when starting to train, because as you rightly pointed out people don't normally have the proper musles developed. Stance work is also necessary if you want to be good at push hands or develop martial skills (as CQZ would say if you want to develop kungfu). But spending more then ten- fifteen percent of your training on standing will probable have a detrimental affect on the development of your skills. The problem with stance work is that although it develops proper structure, it doesn't reenforce proper movement. Think of the relationship between standing and taiji as that between weight lifting and {American} football. You'll never be really good football player if you don't put in hours at the weight room, but if you spend more hours in the weight room than training on the field, your skills will suffer more. I've met some of Ben Lo's students and they have very good roots, and are tough to unbalance in fixed step push hands. However, once you add stepping and applications, their rooting abilities provides little advantage.

--josh

[RAF]

Josh_f:

Thats an interesting observatin regarding the standing post, however, my biggest breakthroughs came from 1 year of focused xiao baji (which is a moving stancework) and the da qiang. The last set of xiao baji is played with flow and fajing expression and I would finish with either Yang/Chen or a sword form. I actually had before and after video and could see a marked improvement in both flow and depth of stances. Fajing became more expressive and solid. I have also seen this happen with praying mantis players too.

It may simply be unique to my situation and experience. Also as a result of my xiao baui training my flexibility increased and I more flexible than I was 10 years ago (when I stretched just about everyday and 3 times a week in a one hour stretch/Yoga class). Prior to xiao baji training, I did a lot of silk reeling exercises taught to me by Jou Tsung Hwa which may have helped contribute but I am not sure that helped much.

I agree with you regarding Chen Qing Zhou. I got a chance to demonstrate in his village, Xu Lu, Wenxian County and also watched him do his form and taiji ball. You would really need personal instruction to utilize those techniques effectively. Also find that Chen Quan Zhong, from Xian, has very good laojia.

Later.

I guess we all bring different experiences to the table and can try to learn from them.

[count]

Originally posted by josh_f
Re standing post:

I'm afraid, I disagree with the idea that stance work will help increase the continuity of ones forms. Stance work certainly has value when starting to train, because as you rightly pointed out people don't normally have the proper musles developed. Stance work is also necessary if you want to be good at push hands or develop martial skills (as CQZ would say if you want to develop kungfu). But spending more then ten- fifteen percent of your training on standing will probable have a detrimental affect on the development of your skills. The problem with stance work is that although it develops proper structure, it doesn't reenforce proper movement. Think of the relationship between standing and taiji as that between weight lifting and {American} football. You'll never be really good football player if you don't put in hours at the weight room, but if you spend more hours in the weight room than training on the field, your skills will suffer more. I've met some of Ben Lo's students and they have very good roots, and are tough to unbalance in fixed step push hands. However, once you add stepping and applications, their rooting abilities provides little advantage.

--josh No, stance training is good for everything. Maybe your just looking at it from the wrong direction. Stance training has little to do with muscle development at all. I leave the rest for Mr. RAF ;) BTW, How is it possible to move your Dan Tien without moving your hips and buttocks?
Kaitain,
I think we all go through what you describe. What has helped me the most was to slow down at the end and beginning of a movement. It adds continuity and centers the thoughts.;) JMHO

[RAF]

Count just reminded me of a way we were told to train in praying mantis for flow and flavor. I forgot about since I haven't really done praying mantis for many, many years. It may be applicable to taiji, but only you can decide.

1st set: (eg. Li Pi or Xiao Hu Yan) hold each posture for 30 seconds or so as you move through the form.

2nd set: Move through 3 or 4 postures of the form, hold for 30 seconds, move another 3 or 4 postures hold 30 seconds, continue until you finish the form. No power and play it a little faster than you would a set of Yang taiji.

3rd set: Play as fast and with as much power as you can.

Repeat all three sets for total of 12 sets.

Just more information for the table. I personally did not go this route (I think it was my big mistake when I did praying mantis) but others have and it seemed to work.

[josh_f]

RAF-- I could say the same as you, my perspective on stance training maybe unique to my experience. I have yet to meet a stance worker who had good jin skills, so if your in SF let me know and we can get together and play.

Count-- How is it possible to move my Dan Tien without moving my hips and buttocks? Lot's of practice. Right know I'm sitting in a chair and rotating my dantien. It should be pointed out that this simple to show how much I can articulate my center. When I practice I would use my legs to amplify the power. That being said I would consider moving the Dantien without moving the hips an essential to being able to generate and direct jin. If you must use your hips to move your dantien you will end up breaking the exrternal harmonies. I doubt I can convince you through this forum, so I suggest if you're in frisco let me know and I'll show you it can be done.

--josh

[count]

Sounds like a belly dancer I once dated. She could isolate any muscle in her abdomen and move it. I don't know how applicable that is martially but I found it interesting. (Fun too) :p
Personally, I think stance training is all about moving and transitions and not about standing still at all. I don't want to imply this should be your only focus but it is a most important part of your training, and not just as a beginner. It's all about structure and root. See, flow without structure and root is weak. That is nothing more than dance. Personally I have yet to meet a person with any real power that did not focus on stance training. But I guess you can just show me next time I'm in San Francisco. I'm always willing to consider alternatives in training. Where do you train up there. You can PM me if you want to. I plan to come up for a visit sometime soon.

[josh_f]

Count,
If you define stance training as being about moving and transitions, then I have no real arguement. I was talking specificly about static stance training i.e. standing post. By your definition silk-reeling and forms are both stance training (not that I disagree). I certainly do a lot of active stance work. My initial disagreement was with the idea that standing post improves ones ability to move and that has just not been my experience. Now if you can already move standing post will certainly increase your power.

I live in the heart of San Francisco a few blocks from alamo square (a really nice park). If you're coming to town PM me and I'll tell you how to get in touch with me, I'm always up for some show and tell.

josh