TKD is unamerican

[Stacey]

http://www.afghantaekwondo.com/

think about it.

[neptunesfall]

considering it wasn't an american invention to begin with, i'd have to agree with you.

[Marshdrifter]

Well, it can be American.

http://www.ataonline.com/

:)

[Former castleva]

Yeah...it´s Korean.

[PHILBERT]

You go to hell! You go to hell and you die!

[Leonidas]

I think Philbert likes you Stacy. :D :o

[Budokan]

Methinks he doth protest too much. I think he's sweet on you, too. :D Ain't puppy love wonderful?

[Leonidas]

its funny when its not directed at you :(

[gazza99]

For the record last time I checked we are not even at war with all of the Afgan people, in fact many want the Al Q. and like groups done away with just as much as we do. Ignorance of that nature is why I had to stop an Okie guy at a bar from pummelling a little Indian accountant guy, who just happened to be Christian, and had been a US citizen 30 years.

Regards,
Gary

[Budokan]

Yep. It's always funny to watch another guy get poked with a stick when he's on life support. Uh, not that I've ever done anything like that, you understand!

[African Tiger]

Ta Ke your Dough is the same in any language: American Dollars or Afghanistan Afghanis

So what do they do, execute jump spinning crescent kicks against approaching aircraft? :cool:

[Stacey]

the flying kicks take off camel riders.

[rogue]

Well after the al Qeda tried Hsing-i against the Spectre's with questionable results, I guess it was time for a change.

Good for the people of Afghanistan that they can now find time to practice something as silly as martial arts for sport. I think the US did a good job helping those people get some kind of decent life back.

Which makes me wonder, is the US really a pawn for the WTF, are they the true puppet master of the world?:eek:

[neptunesfall]

hmm...wtf - the rockerfellers...wtf- the triumvirate...wtf - illuminati...wtf-freemasons...i can see where you're coming from :D

[Former castleva]

If there is any reason to believe those big masses which have their opinions on TKD...
US etc. will be doing fine if if afghan nutchops etc. will be attacking them with TKD.
;)

[neito]

tkd is about as americanized as you can get. well, in some cases karate may be just as bad.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by neito
tkd is about as americanized as you can get. well, in some cases karate may be just as bad.

and in some cases, kung fu is as bad.

last taekwondo class i attended, the teacher was korean, the accent was (densely) korean, the vocabulary was korean, and the workout was really tough.

so what does it mean to be 'americanized'?


stuart b.

[neito]

actually the word i should have used would be westernized/commercialized (i live in canada). anyway, where i am from most tkd schools put most of their effort into being a "family friendly" place, and support the "martial arts is for everyone idea". they also rake in loads of money. i doubt any of us have never come upon an american flag dobok in a magazine or catalog. i studied tkd for 3 years and over that time i saw my school change from a few hard working people to a mass or "martial arts tourists". what i mean by tourism is doing some bowing, and speaking the language(badly), and making a half assed effort at some forms and thinking you are learning some traditional art. too bad really.

[apoweyn]

neito,

i hear ya. personally, though, i don't really regret the existence of mcdojos (or whatever you want to call them). for the most part, they tend to fulfill the needs of most people. most people aren't in it for a 'way of life.' they're looking for a hobby. and mcdojos can fill that need perfectly.

here's what i do regret though: 1) the lack of alternatives and 2) the lack of accurate portrayals.

1) it absolutely sucks that a serious school that you were enjoying changed into a less serious school that you didn't enjoy. seriously, that's a real drag. the last real school i attended had a lot of kids in it (as most commercial schools do). and it was always irritating to me to be working on the heavy bag and have kids running up to kick it or running around behind me.

it would be ideal if there were different sorts of schools. and i think we're beginning to see that now. personally, i'd like to train in a place with people with similar priorities and abilities.

2) it would be nice if people were straightforward about what they provided. but the nature of business is that few sifus/senseis are about to start telling their black belt kids that, in reality, they wouldn't stand a chance against many adults, training or no.


stuart b.

[neito]

just for the record, i dont care whether a school looks or sounds american/korean. it matters how they train. i could care less if they did'nt wear dobok and only used english words. as long as the art is respected and kept the same.

[rogue]

and support the "martial arts is for everyone idea". And the problem there is what? I also support the idea that martial arts are for everyone. After all isn't that what CMA arts like Tai Chi and Wing Chun advertise?


it absolutely sucks that a serious school that you were enjoying changed into a less serious school that you didn't enjoy. Tell me about it. I think that sometimes a serious school will turn into a McDojo just by being succesful. The more people in, the greater the influence on the school owner to cater to them. Sometimes the school owner doesn't even see it happening.

[apoweyn]

rogue,

i agree with you. that's why i'd like to see more specialized programs, even within a given school. perhaps classes only open to certain age groups. or classes focused on specific skills within a larger curriculum.

if you have a larger school and then a smaller program within that school (e.g., a sparring program that allows for stronger contact and takedowns), that program will hopefully attract like-minded individuals from within the larger student body.

i guess the real trick is not the eradication of more casual students. it's simply the provision of facilities and services to the more serious students. oddly enough, it's generally those guys that get short changed.


stuart b.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by apoweyn


and in some cases, kung fu is as bad.

last taekwondo class i attended, the teacher was korean, the accent was (densely) korean, the vocabulary was korean, and the workout was really tough.

so what does it mean to be 'americanized'?


stuart b.

Bravo!

Last time I looked, we were living on a round planet.

[neito]

tai chi IS for everyone. never studied it personally, but one can see how a person could perform and benifit from it nomatter who they are. tkd is somewhat specialized however.

[rogue]

guess the real trick is not the eradication of more casual students. it's simply the provision of facilities and services to the more serious students. oddly enough, it's generally those guys that get short changed. And there's the rub. I've observed that in my school the average serious student drops out right before reaching black belt (about 3 years). If they make it past that many reaching black belt will drop out before reaching 1 degree BB( about 2 years after getting their BB). Over time the attrition rate for serious students is high as they have to balance life with training longer and harder trying to attain advanced rank. In a way you know that the higher in rank the average person gets the more likely they'll be dropping out. And that's one reason why schools do contracts and frequent belt promotions.

The average kids class in my school is 30+ a night and there's a waiting list to get in. They show up and pack their class. And generate money and will continue to do so longer than the average adult.

I guess I'm just looking at the cost of adding additional classes for serious people and not seeing much motivation for the school owners to do so.

[apoweyn]

rogue,

i noticed similar patterns in my first two schools (the only two actual commercial schools i've attended, come to think of it). the first was a taekwondo dojang. the second taught taekwondo and eskrima.

the attrition rate before black belt was high. but i always attributed that to people not being up to the testing process. in retrospect, that may be naive. i'm not sure.

but the attrition rate after black belt was virtually absolute. and that is a huge problem. i think a lot of younger students felt like, at that point, there were no more worlds to conquer. the black belt had been the objective for so long that, once they had it, they'd 'done' karate. and it was time for something else.

in my case, however, the problem was different. it was that the school didn't cater to the black belts at all. obviously, a black belt can continue to learn and train with everyone else. a black belt could take nothing but basic classes and still continue to develop new insights into their round kick for example. but at the same time, they need to be challenged, their specific needs have to be addressed. just like any other student's would be.

(of course, at these schools, once you hit black belt you weren't paying anymore, so the incentive to cater to you diminished considerably. you became an assistant instructor, whether you wanted to be or no, because that's where your worth now came in.)


I guess I'm just looking at the cost of adding additional classes for serious people and not seeing much motivation for the school owners to do so.

to my mind, the motivation is student retention. particularly the higher students. it's perhaps not economically productive. but assuming it doesn't cost the school too much, it seems to me that it would still be worth it. having all of your black belts leave afterward isn't a financial disaster, but it is a shame.

but then, i don't run a school. so i don't have much insight on the viability of this idea.



stuart b.

[rogue]

apoweyn,
Sounds like we have had some of the same experiences, though I've yet to reach black and will be paying for class for a long time to come.;) I've talked to upper brown belts that dropped out and many did so a few months after guys tested for their black belts. Seems that they found out from the newly minted black belts that there wasn't any real magic after the test, that you were still the same guy coming out that went in. This makes sense since all the change would have happened before testing. The black belts seem to leave for the same reason having attained their goal.

I think retention is always going to be a problem unless the student has specific goals in mind, such as competition, opening their own school or just a dedication to the art above almost all else.

[apoweyn]

rogue,

yeah, i remember that conversation myself. my friend matt said to me, "i don't feel any different than i did yesterday." at the time, it was a bit distressing. but to this day, i think it was one of the most worthwhile comments on martial arts ever.


I think retention is always going to be a problem unless the student has specific goals in mind, such as competition, opening their own school or just a dedication to the art above almost all else.

i think you've hit on the crux of the problem right here. throughout the entire belt system, the student has had specific goals in mind (the next belt). after black belt, they lack that. sure, there are degrees to pursue. but the black belt itself is what's been hyped for years. not the degrees. so the allure isn't the same.

i think instructors should probably provide more guidance than they do to their new black belts, particularly concerning the specific goals you mention. that was my problem, i think. no objective. and no real idea what i wanted my objective to be. the belt system sort of removes that question from the equation, when i really think it should be there all along.

that said, the belt system can certainly accomodate better goal-building approaches. it would just take more deliberate curriculum development.


stuart b.