Serpent
11-05-2001, 07:31 AM
OK. Well, this whole thing is beginning to get nasty. It was a lot of fun to laugh at Frank McCarthy for a while there, but I’m beginning to think that Joseph has the right idea. Let Frank wallow in his ignorance, let anyone believe what they want. In the end, if it’s not improving your kung fu, what does it really matter? But history is important to traditional styles, so it’s always going to be an issue.
You have to consider the agendas of people. Why is Frank McCarthy making all this noise now? Well, one possibilty is that Master Chen Yong Fa has recently started running seminars in the US. There is a direct disciple of Master Chen that should be teaching in New York soon. Chen Family CLF is coming to America, led by the very source of the style, Jeurng Mun Chen, Yong Fa.
Scared Frank? Is that where this is coming from? Muddy the name before all your potential students see the truth for themselves? It's certainly not a definite hypothesis, but it sure rings true, don't you think, folks? Just an example to remind you that a persons actions are usually governed by a greater force, an agenda that suits them.
The Hung Sing schools that Frank represents need to justify their history as it adds weight to their lineage. Their “history” as told (or yet to be told) by the great historian Frank McCarthy is just going to be another rehashing of the lies told some 30 years ago by others. The real truth is out there. The facts are available. Frank’s excuse that there is nothing left in the way of records about Jeong Yim because of revolutionary activity is laughable. Everybody in that time had some connection with rebels, lots of people were involved in the Tongs. If we know every detail about the life of Big Eared Du, for example, why should Jeong Yim be so different? Do your own research folks, there’s plenty to be learned.
The truth of the matter is that there are only two people left in the world (to my knowledge, which is always open to review) that have the position of being a direct descendant. One of those is Master Chen Yong Fa of the Chen Family CLF. His great great grandfather was Chan Heung. Master Chen holds the family scrolls of the entire system and as such is recognised as Jeurng Mun or Keeper of the Style. Frank’s people won’t recognise that fact, as they want their school to have a stronger lineage, so they are trying to give Jeong Yim a higher profile. It’s been tried before. Vince Lacy’s Buk Sing school agree completely with the Chan family history, yet apparently Vince’s sifu doesn’t. As you can see, it’s like trying to unscramble an egg. Maybe none of them are completely right. But the weight of facts is all we have to go on - everything else is speculation and conjecture. So stick to the facts - there are more than enough to get the picture.
Just remember to read everything with a critical eye. Consider the facts, not the rhetoric. Listen to everyone, not only those that shout the loudest. The empty vessel makes the most noise, after all. Pay attention to people like Joseph; he was around the last time people tried to change the history of CLF. His facts and figures and his knowledge are invaluable. If Frank McCarthy was half the historian he claims to be he would be treating Joseph with some respect and asking him to share his knowledge. But his knowledge doesn’t fit what Frank wants the history to be, so all Frank can do is use ****sexual insults and keep harping on about how great his kung fu is and to come and fight him. Say Joseph and Frank did fight (or Frank and me for that matter) – no matter who won, would it have any bearing on what the correct history is?
This discussion has degenerated into name calling and useless posturing. People like HuangKaiVun are getting involved now, purely to stir up the sh!t. Therefore, it’s time to get out. I don’t want to end up in arguments like the ones that still haunt the Wing Chun community. Remember, we’re all Choy Lee Fut. We are all brothers and sisters and fighting among ourselves sullies the name and honour of Chan Heung and all the masters past and present.
Frank – Tell your story. People like you failed to change history before and you’ll fail again. But be sure to tell your story. And when you do, make sure the people here get a chance to read it. There’s no point in all your yelling and hysterics if after all this you’re only going to keep the information to yourself. BUT, when you do tell your story, back it up with facts. Use dates and names, cite sources, prove your historian’s lack of bias in the telling of your tale. Don’t just spin fairy tales. Of course, personally I think that’s too tall an order for you, as there are no facts to support your version of events, but go for your life. I would honestly love to be surprised by any revelations you deliver. But I won’t hold my breath.
Joseph - if you're still around, don't let Frank scare you off. He's a volatile man that obviously has anger management issues. You have great knowledge - if people ask, tell them the facts. We owe it to our forebears to keep the truth alive. For those of you that think Joseph and I are the same person, I'm sure a Moderator could confirm that we aren't. I'd love to know who Joseph was - I'd like to make him tea and listen to the things he could tell me from his extensive knowledge of our style and our history and our ancestors. But like I said in another thread - I respect his privacy.
This is my final say on this subject. Peace to all martial artists and may peace reign within the CLF family.
Here's one for you to ponder Frank:
"When the Dragon and the Tiger meet,
the outcome will always be uncertain.
The disciple must be fully alert and careful
of the situation and continue to spread the
Shaolin techniques so as to keep the next
generation alive ".
;)
And remember - If it’s not improving your kung fu, how much worth does it really have?
You have to consider the agendas of people. Why is Frank McCarthy making all this noise now? Well, one possibilty is that Master Chen Yong Fa has recently started running seminars in the US. There is a direct disciple of Master Chen that should be teaching in New York soon. Chen Family CLF is coming to America, led by the very source of the style, Jeurng Mun Chen, Yong Fa.
Scared Frank? Is that where this is coming from? Muddy the name before all your potential students see the truth for themselves? It's certainly not a definite hypothesis, but it sure rings true, don't you think, folks? Just an example to remind you that a persons actions are usually governed by a greater force, an agenda that suits them.
The Hung Sing schools that Frank represents need to justify their history as it adds weight to their lineage. Their “history” as told (or yet to be told) by the great historian Frank McCarthy is just going to be another rehashing of the lies told some 30 years ago by others. The real truth is out there. The facts are available. Frank’s excuse that there is nothing left in the way of records about Jeong Yim because of revolutionary activity is laughable. Everybody in that time had some connection with rebels, lots of people were involved in the Tongs. If we know every detail about the life of Big Eared Du, for example, why should Jeong Yim be so different? Do your own research folks, there’s plenty to be learned.
The truth of the matter is that there are only two people left in the world (to my knowledge, which is always open to review) that have the position of being a direct descendant. One of those is Master Chen Yong Fa of the Chen Family CLF. His great great grandfather was Chan Heung. Master Chen holds the family scrolls of the entire system and as such is recognised as Jeurng Mun or Keeper of the Style. Frank’s people won’t recognise that fact, as they want their school to have a stronger lineage, so they are trying to give Jeong Yim a higher profile. It’s been tried before. Vince Lacy’s Buk Sing school agree completely with the Chan family history, yet apparently Vince’s sifu doesn’t. As you can see, it’s like trying to unscramble an egg. Maybe none of them are completely right. But the weight of facts is all we have to go on - everything else is speculation and conjecture. So stick to the facts - there are more than enough to get the picture.
Just remember to read everything with a critical eye. Consider the facts, not the rhetoric. Listen to everyone, not only those that shout the loudest. The empty vessel makes the most noise, after all. Pay attention to people like Joseph; he was around the last time people tried to change the history of CLF. His facts and figures and his knowledge are invaluable. If Frank McCarthy was half the historian he claims to be he would be treating Joseph with some respect and asking him to share his knowledge. But his knowledge doesn’t fit what Frank wants the history to be, so all Frank can do is use ****sexual insults and keep harping on about how great his kung fu is and to come and fight him. Say Joseph and Frank did fight (or Frank and me for that matter) – no matter who won, would it have any bearing on what the correct history is?
This discussion has degenerated into name calling and useless posturing. People like HuangKaiVun are getting involved now, purely to stir up the sh!t. Therefore, it’s time to get out. I don’t want to end up in arguments like the ones that still haunt the Wing Chun community. Remember, we’re all Choy Lee Fut. We are all brothers and sisters and fighting among ourselves sullies the name and honour of Chan Heung and all the masters past and present.
Frank – Tell your story. People like you failed to change history before and you’ll fail again. But be sure to tell your story. And when you do, make sure the people here get a chance to read it. There’s no point in all your yelling and hysterics if after all this you’re only going to keep the information to yourself. BUT, when you do tell your story, back it up with facts. Use dates and names, cite sources, prove your historian’s lack of bias in the telling of your tale. Don’t just spin fairy tales. Of course, personally I think that’s too tall an order for you, as there are no facts to support your version of events, but go for your life. I would honestly love to be surprised by any revelations you deliver. But I won’t hold my breath.
Joseph - if you're still around, don't let Frank scare you off. He's a volatile man that obviously has anger management issues. You have great knowledge - if people ask, tell them the facts. We owe it to our forebears to keep the truth alive. For those of you that think Joseph and I are the same person, I'm sure a Moderator could confirm that we aren't. I'd love to know who Joseph was - I'd like to make him tea and listen to the things he could tell me from his extensive knowledge of our style and our history and our ancestors. But like I said in another thread - I respect his privacy.
This is my final say on this subject. Peace to all martial artists and may peace reign within the CLF family.
Here's one for you to ponder Frank:
"When the Dragon and the Tiger meet,
the outcome will always be uncertain.
The disciple must be fully alert and careful
of the situation and continue to spread the
Shaolin techniques so as to keep the next
generation alive ".
;)
And remember - If it’s not improving your kung fu, how much worth does it really have?