Is praying mantis a fighting style or pure art form?

[wiz cool c]

The reason i ask this is i see a lot of form. The two man stuff i think it is called son sow. But i never saw fighting of any kind. Do you guys have any special free style drills like push hands or sticky hands. Do you spar any certain way or do you do the kickboxing stuff? Are there any links to any clips were they show mantis free sparring or free style type of drills?

[hungy]

At my school we dont call it sparring.... we call playing hands. it is not the sparring you would think though, compared to taekwondo or karate. We start off very slow and maybe at first for beginers we take turns exhanging blows. we do basic 5 and so on. later when you get better at it we start adding in chi na's and take downs.

[Skarbromantis]

That’s pretty much how we do it also, Hungy, and then as you develop, you can step it up a little, and go at a faster pace, I find the controlled method good at developing the skills you need in actual combat, distance, speed, and root all can be work through this method.

Skard1

[yu shan]

This to me is a stupid thread started by a non-CMA practioner. Unfortunately, Mantis schools here are not "all" being taught the fighting theory. Shr ZhengZhong of Tainan, Taiwain is passing on the true treasures through Pong Lai Wu Ji Praying Mantis.

[wiz cool c]

I just changed my profile I am no longer a bujinkan practitioner. I am now a Chen Style Tai Ji Chuan practitioner. I don't mean this as an insult. I am just curious.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by wiz cool c
The reason i ask this is i see a lot of form. The two man stuff i think it is called son sow. But i never saw fighting of any kind. Do you guys have any special free style drills like push hands or sticky hands. Do you spar any certain way or do you do the kickboxing stuff? Are there any links to any clips were they show mantis free sparring or free style type of drills?

IMO 7*PM is both fighting style and art form.

It's fighting methods are without question effective and deadly in nature yet the forms remain exquisite, beautiful.

UM.

[TaiChiStorm]

Shr ZhengZhong of Tainan, Taiwain is passing on the true treasures through Pong Lai Wu Ji Praying Mantis.

yu shan,
what do you mean by that?? Sorry about my bad English!! :)

[SaMantis]

What he means is that Pong Lai concentrates on fighting more than forms.

Which is just fine. There are many treasures in mantis, fighting skill is just one of them.

Mantis styles cover a wide range of elements and the forms are just one expression of a system.

[TaiChiStorm]

Is Pong Lai's school in Taiwan, Tainan?

My master really concentrates on forms. For me personally, this is fine because I like forms, and they were the reason why I chose this MA style. (I started with Tai Chi Chuan just because I loved doing the forms)
But sometimes it would be good to do some more partner excercises I guess.
thanx.....
greets
TCS

[wiz cool c]

so what methods are used to train for fighting? Theres the san sau and the forms. Are there any sticky hands or push hands type stuff? Do you spar and how? Are there any clips of this types of training anywhere?

[mantis108]

The truth is there is no uniformed format in Mantis to train fighting with techniques since there are not rule to fighting. Having said that it doesn't mean that such format not exists. If you are wondering if there are "seed hands" in Mantis just like the Tan Bong Fook in Wing Chun sticky hand or Peng Lu Ji An in Taiji push hands, the answer is yes and they are Tao (stealing) Bu (filling) Guan (rolling) Lau (leaking). 5 puching techniques in 2 basic drills can serve as the platform to launch myriad of mantis techniques including the famed "mantis catches ciccada" (Tanglang BuChan). All of these can be sprung out of the closed stance (Bi Shr) kind of resembling the San Ti stance in Hsing Yi Quan. Personally, I call them Choi Sau/Tsai Shou (Plucking hands). Others Mantis lineages might have different definations for the term Tsai Shou. Mantis unplugged does exist, my friend. ;) Hope this help

Mantis108

PS I don't think there is any such clips online. You might have better luck getting them through personal contact with Mantis stylists. Good luck on your search.

[Laughing Buddha]

I think there is some confusion as to the various types of "two man forms" in Seven Star Mantis. There is "Sahn Sao", "Ling" forms, "Dui Da", and free sparring.

Essentially, "Sahn Sao" are an assorted series of linked techniques extracted from the forms that we practice against a partner. They are not "forms" unto themselves. Just segments of linked techniques. And we have a whole assorted series of them. They merely demonstrate the applications of techniques.

Then there are the Ling forms. Ling forms have a solo component. e.g. For Bung Bo, there is Ling Bung Bo. You can practice Bung Bo by itself or you can practise Ling Bung Bo together with a partner. Interestingly enough, the "Ling" side of the form is not practised solo either but always with the partner doing the solo side. Anything with "Ling" preceding the name involves one person doing the solo component while another person does a counter partner component to "lead" or provoke the technique being shown in the solo component. As such, this is also a demonstration of the application of the technique, albeit much longer in scope than the "Sahn Sao" and more linked togther. The best analogy for this is the concept of twins: twins can stand alone or together.

"Dui Da" on the other hand are actual two man sets that exist strictly as "two man sets" (i.e. there are no solo versions and they are always practised with a partner, never solo). Examples of these are Toe Fah Sahn and Tao Dzeep. The best analogy for this is the concept of siamese twins: They can never be separated but are always together, forever joined.

Then the last is free sparring. We encourage the student at this stage to use whatever he has been taught in whatever combinations that follow the Mantis theories. We do not use "kick boxing" methods when free sparring unless it is a lesson on "this is a what you could possibly do to respond to a kick boxer". In this situation, one side would be doing kick boxing moves while the other side would always use Mantis theories on attack and defense. Otherwise, both sides use Mantis theories. To use kick boxing techniques in a non instructional situation would be considered a devolution or dissolution of the art.

As you can see, it is a logical progression from assorted techniques to complete solo forms, then to solo forms which extend to two-man forms and then only two-man forms. We don't dump a student in the deep end of the pool and expect them to sink or swim because without the repetitive training to condition reflexes, at the first flood of adrenaline, all training flies out the window and students revert to whatever is instinctive to them. As such, a student might as well not bother to learn any martial art and take up knitting instead for all the good it will do them. However, if the student's reflexes are repetitively conditioned such that offensive moves from an opponent elicit some appropriate reaction based on Mantis theories at an instinctive level to replace the instinctive reaction that was there BEFORE learning Mantis (e.g. cowering in fear or just wading into an attack swinging wildly, etc), then the student can be said to have truly absorbed the Praying Mantis style. And that is our philosophy.

Hope this helps clarify the matter somewhat.

[wiz cool c]

That answers my question. Thanks. There aren't any clips of mantis students doing this type of sparring that you know of are there?

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by yu shan
This to me is a stupid thread started by a non-CMA practioner. Unfortunately, Mantis schools here are not "all" being taught the fighting theory. Shr ZhengZhong of Tainan, Taiwain is passing on the true treasures through Pong Lai Wu Ji Praying Mantis.

lol you tell 'em yu shan.

[HuangKaiVun]

I disagree with yu shan.

This thread is a good thread, one worthy of discussion.

When I was with my mantis teacher, we didn't do any special push hands drills or anything like that. He threw me into the ring and I got beat up by a boxer who was a foot taller than me. I was trying to use strictly mantis techniques.

But there was one move where I got him. We were in the clinch and I grabbed him. Literally by Beng Bo instinct, my knee automatically went into his groin. I was horrified because that wasn't part of the rules, and I apologized profusely. Luckily, my opponent was very gracious.

Since then, I've had time to practice my Mantis. Now I can spar with it in various settings. The seven-star monkey step has been particularly valuable, as I'm a small guy who likes to flit around. That's not to say that the horse stance doesn't help either.

For me, I have a similar mentality to a Western boxer when I use Mantis. My moves are different, as are my targets, but I still dance around and bob and weave. I throw jabs, roundhouses, kicks, grappling - all.

I'd love to do a sparring demo of mantis for or against you, wiz cool c.

[wiz cool c]

i have read alot of your posts and they seem far fetched. are you a real person or a made up character like ashida kim?

[yu shan]

I fail to correspond with " I was horrified because that wasn`t part of the rules" Rules with fighting??? What F'N rules! Luckily my opponent was gracious... good luck in your future and this peace-nik attitude towards FIGHTING! Get some b*lls!

[Ye Gor]

Ah, yu shan, cut him some slack. He obviously meant "contact sparring with a few rules", not "plain fighting".

I have a serious question for you: "Do you find that your training is making you a more agressive person?" Please answer w/out profanity, if possible.

[Laughing Buddha]

You're welcome.

I'm afraid I don't know of any clips of two man sets. But that doesn't mean they don't exist out there somewhere.

[hungy]

One thing I always feared when training is when i would lose control. When we spar it is controlled. But when I lose control especially due to alcohol i tend to be pretty scary. As I am comitted to continue training in 7* I plan on giving up alcohol completely. I am worried that one day I may hurt someone due to my training and my drunken stupor. This is especially hard when you are 22 and are at the prime of partying....

[grifter721]

Alcohol should not take over ya bro. I know wghen you get drunk mantis may be the first thing in your mind, but control you must learn control.

[Art D]

Yu Shan Why is it important to put out the " we have it you don't " energy? I don't think it represents PONG LI well. Most of us that know John & kevin or have met w/ lao shi know that what he teaches is complete, and I would add of high quality.

please use the forum to share information w/ us , provoke thinking about PM. Leave the judgment of what others have or have not out of it.

[Tainan Mantis]

If someone has the know-how to post an mpeg vid clip I can e-mail it to you for posting.

It will include some sparring stuff using PM.

[grifter721]

just add it as an attachment when you post..........

[Tainan Mantis]

Valid extensions don't list mpeg, but thanks for the tip. I think I can post still pics here.

[grifter721]

No prob
someone Tainan out I am sure we would all like to see dem clips!

[yu shan]

"We have it you don't"

No such thing, only if your Teacher knows it. Not everyone knows it... but arn't we always learning?

It is an insult to me by the thread starter, is Praying Mantis a Fighting Style.

[HuangKaiVun]

"insult to me by the thread starter"

If you say that in lip synch, yu shan, you would be the ultimate HK 70s movies bad guy!!!

just kidding.


Anyway, wiz cool c, you live in Queens.

I am originally from Long Island and would love to show my art to you in person. You are a very thoughtful martial artist.

Maybe we can meet at Dachengdao's school at some point or something.

[wiz cool c]

First off i have sparred whal lum people twice. I went there for the two week full time training program and braught my sparring gear. They had sparring class on thursday they must of took this as a kind of challenge. They put in a tall lean chinese guy. It was three three minet rounds in a taped off ring. I had brought my fome type of sparring gear with a open faced head gear thinking it would be light freindly type of sparring. They all had caged off head gear. The first round i start by tapping him in the head with a round house kick then he starts firering punches at my face full contact. The first round he lit me up. So the next round i said to my self keep your hands up and use your kicks which are real good form 7 years of tang soo do i did as a teen. I did just that and tore up his legs they said i was kicking his nees but that what i do when someone trys to take my head off. When he gave up trying to use his hands and kicked i would jam his kick with mine. One point he got throw my kicks and i tied him up in a clinch and reaped him onto his back. Another point i cought his roundhouse kick reaped his suporting leg, at this point i could have easly done a standing ancle lock but knew this is foren to there sparring so i did a mock stomp to his groin which would have ended it. Anyway after the first round he diden't lay a hand on me. The next thursday they put me up againt this chineze guy who was riped and had long hair in a pony tail he looked like a character from street fighter. Theres know way this guy was in my wieght class. They had us do a round of defence and a round of offence each then a free style round which was even. At about the last ten seconds of the match he kicked a long cut i had down my shin from the thursday before and the teacher Chan Poi who was reffing said ok stop. Anyway these guys could fight but they are not really mantis right? And althougt they could kick box well in the two weeks i was there we did form not one single applocatoin or partner training. So you live in phoenix. Never met me, dont know me, my skill, size anything . But you know that your kung fu is unstopable so you will chanlege anyone just like in the moveis. Ok fly down to ny and tell me where you will be when you get here.

[HuangKaiVun]

Look wiz cool c, I'm not trying to flame you or kick your butt.

I don't doubt for a second that you really did what you did to those Chinese guys. Your analysis is that of somebody who actually fights - and fights WELL.

I really liked this thread here that you set up, and I didn't agree with yu shan saying that this thread was an insult to him. Do you actually agree with him or something?

Never did I say that my kung fu was "unstoppable." That's what you said, not me. I have and will be beaten by others, and there's no shame in that. DON'T MISQUOTE ME.

As I said, it would be an honor meet you in person because you're a real martial artist and a good fighter.

I hope that you don't change my good opinion of you.

[wiz cool c]

ok sorry no disrespect intended.

[18elders]

yes there are drill for your mantis fighting. There is a 5 step process to developing your mantis fighting techniques. You can look back in the history posts by tainan mantis. He lists the chinese names and explains the process.
What else did you learn in your 2 weeks? And what was the cost if you don't mind posting it?
If you are open to learining mantis , our master from taiwan will be here in january or february. Master Shr Jeng Jong, teaches 7 star, tai chi, secret door and plum flower mantis.
It would be well worth your time to come down and see him or even come down now and check out our school.

[wiz cool c]

In the two weeks at Whal Lum we did forms and exersize. Then the sparring. I dont reamember the price this was in 96 i think but something like 3oo. I just started Chen Tai Ji 3 mouths ago so i have plenty to learn with that. The reason I started this post is i have never seen a clip of sparring or a tournenment or any free style of any kind from Mantis. I have seen lots of solo and partner rutines but never any thing free style. I have seen other kung fu people spar. I recently watch the Doc Fa Wong tournement and there was a souther mantis guy in the chi sow devision but that is it. There must be some documentation of mantis people sparring or doing free style drills.

[Tainan Mantis]

I haven't seen PM fighting in video and I have seen a lot of vids.
But I have seen it in schools.
You'll just have to go to a school like the one 18 Elders trains it-Pong Lai- to see it.

People don't like to video their PM drills and sparring.

[TaiChiStorm]

I have read that PM fighters usually are very good in SanShou competitions. My sifu was also successful in such comp.
For me, PM is such a great MA style with so much philosophy, forms, intersting themes etc. and I just like "doing it" :) (hard to explain)
Of course fighting is very important, and you surely can benefit from fighting competitions and sparring. But only doing it for beeing a good fighter won't lead you to mastery!!

[HuangKaiVun]

I'm cool with you too, wiz cool c.

I wish you had been able to come up to Albany NY when I still lived there.

There, one of Jiang Jianye's students pulled Mantis on me. He wasn't that great a fighter and never claimed to be, but I got my butt knocked in that one time. That was my first exposure to combat Mantis, and I didn't know how to fight it at the time.

The thing that got me was that every time I blocked, his hook came around my arm and got me anyway!

[darksands]

I have a clip of me sparring my kung fu bro's. All in which I get knocked around in. It s areally long clip and its pretty big, Ill try to see if I can shorten it and post it somewhere.