has anyone seen Mantis video's by Sifu Raul Ortiz??

[Royal Dragon]

Are they any good??

[Royal Dragon]

I am specifically asking about this guy

http://www.superiormartialarts.com/cgi-bin/uniform/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=thispage&thispage=prayingmantisvideos.html&ORDER_ID=277430548&affiliate=583

[SevenStar]

I remember those vids from black belt mags, like 13 years ago.I was just a kid back then, wanted to order them and never did. Other than the ads, I've never heard anything about the guy though. why don't you post this on the mantis forum?

[SevenStar]

http://www.ortizacademy.com/

[NorthernMantis]

I would suggest asking in the northern mantis section. Haven't seen much or heard much of the guy so I can say anything.

[Rolling Elbow]

After watching those vids i am left with the feeling that mantis is overly fancy with weak blocks, powerless strikes, and too many spins....anybody else with me on that?! I'm willing to convert but i've got too see more than that!

[rogue]

From the October lesson.

Break his right elbow against the back of your neck :eek: I don't think so.

[Souljah]

seen a couple of the tapes.....theyre ok, depends how easy you find it to learn from a tape.....

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by Rolling Elbow
After watching those vids i am left with the feeling that mantis is overly fancy with weak blocks, powerless strikes, and too many spins....anybody else with me on that?! I'm willing to convert but i've got too see more than that!

lol don't just judge on some tapes and on one guy and on one mantis style. They'res different variations.

I dont' know what spins you are talking about , I don't think any mantis mantis has spinning moves others thatn sweeps.

Oh and just because it moves differently it doesn't mean it's weak. Mantis is a very effective style. Trust me I've had the experince.

Like I said ask in the northern mantis forum or wait till someone with better knowledge than me comes bye.

What do you mean in weak strikes and blocks?What parts did you not like? I cannot speak for Raul Ortiz but I can speak for my style of mantis.

Oh and the breaking someones arm with our neck is unheard off unles I wasn't taught that yet.:eek: :eek: :confused:

[dre]

It's 100% cr@p - please just trust me.

[Rolling Elbow]

watch the vids and the two partner "dances".. kinda weak. But i too have seen some old mantis vids and they looked diff then this so i'd like to see more. Southern mantis trapping hands I saw was pretty cool..no b.s right to the point. This however, was VERY flowery. Just watch the clips on the site.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Rolling Elbow
After watching those vids i am left with the feeling that mantis is overly fancy with weak blocks, powerless strikes, and too many spins....anybody else with me on that?! I'm willing to convert but i've got too see more than that!

I agree they lack power on the videos. it Looks more like Wu Shu than traditional kung fu.

I know it's a demo of the forms ,but these are teachers doing these forms that says alot.I think this is where kung fu is losing it's respect.It looks alot like a dance what they are doing.I would expect that from students ,but from teachers i think that is a weak example to show people of your training.

At first i thought it was a nice website with traditional teaching.They might be teaching traditional kung fu ,but they lack power with there techniques.

jmd161 :)

[Tainan Mantis]

Got one video a while back.
That mantis has no relationship to any other PM style I have studied including...
Wah Lum
6 Harmony
8 Step
7 Star
Two families of Taiji PM
Mimen
Plum Flower

Nor was it related to other styles that have similar points to PM and also are found in Shandong such as...
Mi Dzong Chuen
Yen Ching Chuen
Er Lang Chuen
Gong Li Chuen
Many types of Chang Chuen

The tape I have includes the famous PM form Beng Bu.
It was performed in a way like some Southern styles.
Although most Southern schools who have adopted PM do the 7* Beng Bu from HK. This wasn't the case.

Several years ago a fellow named Word(remember him?) critisized the videos very rudely.
Master Ortiz himself joined the melee(no exaggeration).

He explained that he no longer practices that style and now does the PM as taight by Lee Kamwing. GM Lee is famous as a grandstudent of Luo Guangyu.

It seems unfortunate that those tapes are a poor representation of what Master Ortiz actually does.
But they probably still sell well because he looks like a dangerous character on the box cover.

[WCFighter]

Hi everyone,

Let's all be nice.

Whatever our style is, we should respect everyone else's.
It is the person, not the style that you must judge.

He has very good credentials as far as I am concerned.

Even though I am a Wing Chun practicioner , I have to admit that I really enjoyed looking at the pictures and videos from the Ortiz website.

I love the fact that wing chun has fewer hand/weapon forms than
most other styles; it doesn't take a lifetime to learn them.
(Although it can take a lifetime to master them).

But then sometimes, especially when looking at this website,
I regret the fact that wing chun has fewer hand/weapons forms.
(Like I'm missing out on a whole wack of chinese culture, and cool kung fu weapons forms)
I thought it was cool to watch his students, even the young kids, practice the staff and sword forms. It gives them a chance to
feel good about themselves and compete in something other than sparring.

Ever been to a kungfu demo in a shopping mall or someplace, and there is a wing chun forms demo? Boring !!!! (Ok, maybe not the wooden dummy form)
Ever see another kung fu school doing Crane or Mantis Kung fu demos (insert any other style)? It's pretty cool to watch.

I get the same feeling when I watch kungfu films and see them fight with different weapons, or different styles : drunken boxing etc.

I love wing chun. It's great and efficient. It was derived from the most efficient movements of all kung fu styles.

Sometimes I just wish it included more "things" from those styles.

Anybody else ever feel this way?

[Rolling Elbow]

exactly.

[MightyB]

Those tapes aren't any good.

There's a lot of people claiming to teach Praying Mantis kung fu, but sadly there's not a lot of people who are actually teaching Praying Mantis.

For some reason, we have about as many Charlatans and posers as Tai Chi.

Real mantis looks like this:

http://www.wle.com//products/VUMANT01.html

and:

http://www.wahlum.com/kung-fu_store.htm
Living Legends of Kung Fu, with Grandmasters Pui Chan and Brendan Lai

Watch Brendan apply 7* on this tape and see if it lacks power.

It's difficult to find real 7* teachers in the world, let alone in the US.

[WCFighter]

what does jmd mean?

[dre]

He is a charlatan.

Hint : Look for similarites in what he teaches, and Isshin-Ryu Karate.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by WCFighter

Ever been to a kungfu demo in a shopping mall or someplace, and there is a wing chun forms demo? Boring !!!! (Ok, maybe not the wooden dummy form)
Ever see another kung fu school doing Crane or Mantis Kung fu demos (insert any other style)? It's pretty cool to watch.


I love wing chun. It's great and efficient. It was derived from the most efficient movements of all kung fu styles.


It kind of sounds like your putting other styles down.

The most efficient strike is the jab and straight right. If efficiency was the only important attribute in a fight boxers wouldnt throw hooks.

[Stacey]

those techniques were not bad. For the october lesson, I would be more inclined to use Chuei deng for a throw.

I think its funny that people would think wah lum was more real than this.

I know people play it cool by saying their aren't impressed, but that girl had a crisp application.

I think I get more out of my training in 8 step, but it seemed like a nice professional. I think good people are developed there. I don't see a lot of root or power generation, but most schools don't

Anyone dissing it should feel free to post clips of themselves. At least these people have kung fu that doesn't only exist on the internet.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Stacey
I don't see a lot of root or power generation, but most schools don't

Stacey,

That's exactly what i was saying.

The problem i have with it is how many schools do you see where the teachers don't have root or power generation?

The students okay ,but the teachers?

If the teachers don't have root or any power then how can they teach the students to be well rooted or bring out their power?

jmd161:)

[rogue]

Hint : Look for similarites in what he teaches, and Isshin-Ryu Karate.
Dre, care to clarify that statement?:confused:

[WCFighter]

Nope, not putting other styles down.

If you read that whole article, you would understand that I was open-minded enough to express that, from an audience member's point of view, other styles forms are more interesting/exciting to watch , and have more weapons than wing chun.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by WCFighter
Nope, not putting other styles down.

If you read that whole article, you would understand that I was open-minded enough to express that, from an audience member's point of view, other styles forms are more interesting/exciting to watch , and have more weapons than wing chun.

Heres basicallly what you said in your article.

Pro's of wingchun- combat effectivness

Pro's of other styles- exciting to watch forms of/have more forms.

In my opinion thats putting the effectiveness of other styles down.

[Skarbromantis]

So go argue on the Wing Chun Forum.

Back to topic:

"He explained that he no longer practices that style and now does the PM as taight by Lee Kam Wing. GM Lee is famous as a grandstudent of Luo Guangyu."

What was the style of PM on the tape?

Are the video clips on the site LKW 7Star Mantis?

I can't see them behind my firewall at work.

Skard1

[psycho monk]

WCFIGHTER is right its not the style but their Sifu who looks funny you guys have to see him at the Tournaments he is always running around with some modern day black manchu. LOL


To jmd 161, There is no black tiger association in florida so dont come with that im tired of people trying to claim hark fu moon if your sifu is not authorized becuase i know there is no one in florida teaching fu-jow pai in Florida and so then he most likely is not certified tell him or her to buy some instrcuctional videos and teach you some real kung fu instead of contributing to this upcropping of false martail artist. So jmd 161 please have some respect and change your profile cause u have never seen real tiger claw.


you only fool yourself

[jmd161]

Originally posted by psycho monk
To jmd 161, There is no black tiger association in florida so dont come with that im tired of people trying to claim hark fu moon if your sifu is not authorized becuase i know there is no one in florida teaching fu-jow pai in Florida and so then he most likely is not certified tell him or her to buy some instrcuctional videos and teach you some real kung fu instead of contributing to this upcropping of false martail artist. So jmd 161 please have some respect and change your profile cause u have never seen real tiger claw.


you only fool yourself


psycho monk,

I'm not going to go into a Black Tiger flame war with you or anyone else on this board.I never said my sifu taught " Fu Jow Pai " my sifu teaches BlackTiger style.Fu Jow Pai is not the only Black Tiger Known in China.I think you need to ask your Grandmaster Wai Hung who Fred woo is before you go starting trouble.Wai Hung knows my Master very well so go get your info sorted out because you're the one looking like a fool right now.

You confuse us with Paul Koh and Shantung Black Tiger i don't know or care about the problems your school of Black Tiger has with there's.Grandmaster Wong Cheung was known throught Hong Kong for his Hung Gar and Black Tiger teaching.I or my sifu don't need to make false claims.

This does'nt prove much about our Black Tiger ,but i think you need to read it or talk to your Grandmaster. Because it's clear you don't know much about Hark Fu Moon(Hak Fu moon,Huk Fu Muhn) at all.

The Rare Black Tiger Style (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=138)

jmd161:)

P.S. I think if you take time to read you will see it says Hong Kong ,but maybe Hong Kong looks like Florida to you.My sifu moved to the U.S. from Hong Kong. Where he was the Chairman of the Black Tiger Assocation.

[Skarbromantis]

jmd161 thanks for clearing that.

NOW BACK TO TOPIC...

Posted by Dre- "He is a charlatan.
Hint: Look for similarities in what he teaches, and Isshin-Ryu Karate."

Really what does that mean, are you saying hes a fraud?

psycho monk posted- WCFIGHTER is right its not the style but their Sift who looks funny you guys have to see him at the Tournaments he is always running around with some modern day black Manchu.

:D

Please more details, he is very well respected in LKW clan, so all this is shocking.

Skard1

[Skarbromantis]

Pulled from the mantis cave:

Raul Ortiz
He studied under shifu Bob Spoelstra and K. Keeler. He is now aligned himself with shifu Lee Kam Wing and he has met him a couple of times

Bob Spoelstra

He started under shifu Chui Chuen Luen, but only a few months because shifu Chiu Luen closed his school in 1982. Therefore most of his training was done under shifu Stanley Moy. He also trained under shifu Stanley's gong-fu brother Jung Wa.
Shifu Spoelstra currently teaches in New Jersey (USA).

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by jmd161



psycho monk,

I'm not going to go into a Black Tiger flame war with you or anyone else on this board.I never said my sifu taught " Fu Jow Pai " my sifu teaches BlackTiger style.Fu Jow Pai is not the only Black Tiger Known in China.I think you need to ask your Grandmaster Wai Hung who Fred woo is before you go starting trouble.Wai Hung knows my Master very well so go get your info sorted out because you're the one looking like a fool right now.

You confuse us with Paul Koh and Shantung Black Tiger i don't know or care about the problems your school of Black Tiger has with there's.Grandmaster Wong Cheung was know throught Hong Kong for his Hung Gar and Black Tiger teaching.I or my sifu don't need to make false claims.

This does'nt prove much about our Black Tiger ,but i think you need to read it or talk to your Grandmaster. Because it's clear you don't know much about Hark Fu Moon(Hak Fu moon,Huk Fu Muhn) at all.

The Rare Black Tiger Style (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=138)

jmd161:)

P.S. I think if you take time to read you will see it says Hong Kong ,but maybe Hong Kong looks like Florida to you.My sifu moved to the U.S. from Hong Kong. Where he was the Chairman of the Black Tiger Assocation.



ROFL!!!!!! ****... just ****

[Dragon Warrior]

i have never seen sifu ortiz do anything personnally, but from what i hear, he has a good reputation as far as his fighting ability. He is respected by a lot of kung fu sytlist out here in ny.

[rogue]

Posted by Dre- "He is a charlatan.
Hint: Look for similarities in what he teaches, and Isshin-Ryu Karate."

I've only got as far as Seiuchin, but I didn't see anything that looked like Isshinryu. :confused:

[dre]

His classes grasshopper, dig deeper. You will find.

[NorthernMantis]

Ok I just saw the vids and noticed some things that made me think and say huh?

[Souljah]

His 'snake drop' stance is really fab : 80% on the back leg 10% the front. (lol....dont know where the other 10 went.....)
WATCH THE FIRST TAPE.
hahaha:D

[psycho monk]

jmd161 You ####in fooooooooollllllll.

First off your profile says your in miami which is in florida not hong kong LOSER. Second I never Said I did FuJowPai smart ass I am simply defending any style which i hear somone falsely claim , I dont care if you said Wushu , Wing Chun, CLF, Hung Gar s-h-i-t even tae bo LOL all im saying is i have seen mr.Woo number of times which is why i offered you tell him that supermartialmartsmart.com has some great prices and he should check it out. If you dont like me trying to help you on your quest for true martial arts then dont post if you cant accept criticism BIG BABY.
P.S
Anything is rare if its not real.

[psycho monk]

Back to the main post!

I think those vids were well they also made me say huh!LOL. But i must admit in my Many years of rigorous training in psycho kung fu i must say I also can effectively break the right elbow with the back of my neck, not to forget the Great Big Thing out of The Shadow Technique which is applied when i Blind his Left eye with my big right toe technique , you guys should really experiment the human body is a dangerous thing. Happy Training.
;)