CLF Opening Salutations

[Sow Choy]

I just wanted to hear from other CLF people about the bows in the beginig of their hand forms. In our branch "Lee Koon Hung" the older forms have 3 bows, some only 1. There are 3 main different beginings, 1-faces forwards the other 2 begin with the left side facing forward.

Just wanted to hear everybodys version of the bows, or any stories about the bows.

Maybe this will be a good thread.

I feel the bows changed throughout the times for a couple of reasons. Maybe to differentiate the schools, or forms added by different masters.

Peace :)

http://www.leekoonhungkungfu.com/images/JoewithHooks.jpg

[yik-wah-tik]

in our branch of hung sing clf under professor lau bun we mainly use only 1 bow. i believe this may have been adopted by the professor.

cheung kuen and cheh kuen usually begin in the middle of the stage, where everyother set begins at the right hand corner of the stage. moves out in a straight line moving into the bow.

in fut san hung sing choy lee fut the always do "3" bows as in 1) choy 2) lee 3)fut.

from what i have learned in fut san according to them the chan family uses the bow using the left hand open palm and the right hand in the fist. but in fut san they say jeong yim used the right hand with the open palm and the left hand with a fist.

usually anything done in 3's represents choy lee fut. even down to little hand gestures.

our openings to our sets closely mirror fut san, but prof. lau bun added his ear mark on it.

see you.
fran

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it's tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head"

[Fu-Pow]

Hi Joe-

I'm from the same lineage as you so our bows are probably pretty similar. We have 3 or 4 bows also.

1)Mak Fai's bow for siu mui fa

Chut Yo Hop Yau Seung Gwa Choy (Step left, together right, double back fist)

Seung Bum Bo Kou Ma Sa Sau (Double half step, twist horse,break head (knife hand))

Lee Koon Hung's bow for siu mui fa

Seung Chop Cheui (double whirling leopard strikes)

Chut Yo Hop Yau Seung Gwa Choy

Seung Bum Bo Kow Ma Seung Fu Jow (Double half step, twist horse, double tiger claw)


Or there is our really basic bow which is probably the same:

Jun Ma Seung Cham Kiu (Step in , double sink bridge)

Diu Ma Lip So Gin Lai ( Cat stance, Bow)

Hop Ma Seung Gwa Choy (Feet together double hanging hammers)

:p

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[alecM]

When starting the salute in our branch, we face forward and us the right fist with the left hand open. When finishing a form the bow sequence is tow ma long yik (stepping back into cross stance with arms spread open then bow). But our more advanced forms all have different opening sequences. I would also like to add that when I was in Hong Kong A few years ago all the CLF schools I came across only did the bow once.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

[This message was edited by alecM on 11-08-01 at 12:03 PM.]

[CLFNole]

I think the one bow is used a lot now to shorten the opening a bit. I think all the forms traditionally had the 3 bows for "Choy", "Lee", "Fut".

The Lee Koon Hung branch, which according to my research is comprised of a mixture of the Cheong Hung Sing side and the Chan Hueng side uses two traditional opening sequences with plum flower and the shortened beings to ping kuen & tuet sin kuen added by sifu being the exception.

The first sequence faces forward and is seen in Sup Gee Kow Dah Kuen, Ping Chan Kuen, Ng Ying Kuen as well as weapons such as Sheung Garp Dan Kwun and Wang Tow Dang. This sequence I was told by Sifu Li Siu Hung is referred to as "Sub Gee Jong".

The second sequence is often seen in the some of the higher level forms such as Fu Pow Kuen, Hok Ying Kuen, Fu Ying Kuen and Pa Kwa Sum Kuen were you stand with your left shoulder facing front. This sequence is referred to a the "Pa Kwa Sum Jong".

Peace.

[Shaolin36]

beginner forms-1 bow
advance forms-3 bows
weapons forms- 1 bow with palm(weapon in hand)

[nospam]

Bak Hsing CLF- my lineage bows for all fist patterns one way: left open hand over a closed right hand fist (thumb down). For weapon's forms, same as what Shaolin36 said if I understood him correctly.

nospam.

[Eddie]

Joe,
I had a visitor last week who trained at the Holland Plumblossom school. He showed me his Siu Sub Gee form. They do the same 3 bows, but as far as I could figure, they do it in a gwai ma stance instead of Bow stance (not that that really makes much of a difference). The opening looked similar to sub gee or 5 animals.

The rest of his form was well presented, just fairly different. Seems like they do their Sow Choys more like a hooking punch (with much more of an arc). Also thier gwa choys are more lower (maybe this is for more power). Never the less, it all still makes allot of sence, and I figure the application is still valid.

Sorry, this might have been slightly off topic, it was just interesting to note some differences in the execution of some moves between the different groups. Makes you realise CLF is such a nice style.

back to the bows... :)

[This message was edited by Eddie on 11-09-01 at 12:28 AM.]

[CLFNole]

The 3 bows in the loq kwai ma stance is more traditional than the bow in the bow stance. The loq kwai ma stance is close to the ground almost kneeling which is a sign of greater respect. The bow stance was likely used by later generations.

[Sow Choy]

Eddie,

How are you my friend? I hope all is well over there. I too have seen some style do the movements you spoke of. I notice in forms that some CLF have higher stances and shorter arm movement as if shadow boxing and then some who use the form with lower stances and longer movement for more development of power, flow, etc...

CLFNole is my handsome CLF brother, and that's what I have learned of the bows being on 1 knee. I believe we learned about the significance of(probably Spelled wrong) kneeling when you bow through Grandmaster Poon Sing.

But even in our Lee Koon Hung family there are some sifu's who bend their arms a little, and some who don't. There are some who swing the gwa choy low or high. It's all good in forms. Fighting of course a different story. We learned to fight in a much different matter than the form.

That probably is another way of teachers making sure someone who learns the only the forms doesn't really understand all the theory, who knows.

Reading my own posts makes me realize I am not a good typer or speller, time to go back to school. ;)

Joe

http://www.leekoonhungkungfu.com/images/JoewithHooks.jpg

[Shaolin36]

No spam,
Yes
I am Buk Sing as well.

[Fu-Pow]

I saw the tape from the Hung Sing reunion in Singapore. I noticed a lot of the performers were doing the 3 bows in "kneeling horse." I believe the performers were mainly bak sing CLF.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[alecM]

The first form of our school has the bow as described in my post above. Our second form Moi Fa is the only form at our school with three bows in a kneeling or loq kwai ma. All the rest of our empty hand forms have only one bow in loq kwai ma then instead of the other two bows we do gwa choi palm strike in loq kwai ma. The actual opening hand movements at the beginning of each form are all different.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

[Sow Choy]

Here's another question:

In the beginning of the Sup Gee form where you begin facing foward, the first 2 steps with the hand movements, in your CLF styles do they represent the hands of a Shaoiln monk at prayer?

CLFNole, my KF bro has a book that describes the movements representing that. Just wanted to see if in your CLF families if that is so.

Joe

http://www.leekoonhungkungfu.com/images/JoewithHooks.jpg

[iron_silk]

What are the forms usually taught to beginners?

At my school I was first taught Ng lun Ma, and Che kuen. Followed by the Siu Sup Gee, Sup Ji Jit Fu, and Siu Miu Fa.

Sorry for going off topic but just interested to know.

Thanks!

[Sow Choy]

Beginners,

Our school teaches a 2 basic stance forms, and 3 basic fist forms before learning the CLF forms. Lie ma is very long and in Hong Kong our school teaches this form 1st and works on it for about 5-6 months.

Grandmaster Lee Koon Hung developed some basic forms for the 1st level, and more recently we have implemented 2 basic stance forms that are a little bit shorter, so the student can still train intensely but not have to wait 6 months before learning the next form.

Here is an order in which we learn for hand forms:

1. Siu Mui Fah (Plum Flower)
2. Siu Sup Gee (Tut Tsen)
3. Siu Ping Kuen (Peaceful Fist)
4. Ng Ying Kuenb (5 Animal)

So on and so forth.

Later on we teach Lie Ma and Che Kuen to students who are real students.

But still would like to hear about the last question I made.

Joe

http://www.leekoonhungkungfu.com/images/JoewithHooks.jpg

[alecM]

Sow Choy
The only forms in our lineage which start as you describe is our moi fa and sup ji kow da forms. In our sup ji form we start by facing to the side with you left side to the front similar to the way sifu Tat Mau Wong starts the empty hand forms in his video's.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

[Sow Choy]

Hey AlecM,

That version of sup gee where you start to the left in our system as well as Tat Wong's is siu sup gee, not the original long version dai sup gee.

Ping Kuen is the same way, starts to the left is siu ping kuen, or forward is dai ping kuen.

Is this the same with your branch?

Joe

http://www.leekoonhungkungfu.com/images/JoewithHooks.jpg

[alecM]

Sow Choy
We don't have a siu sup ji or a dai sup ji just sup ji. At the beginning of the form, we do the two steps but in stead of double back fist, we use double pow choi then double spear hand.

Our ping kuen forms opening sequence (I hope I can describe it clearly) starts by facing front keeping your feet stationary and knees slightly bent turn your upper torso so your chest faces left while at the same time bringing your open palms up to chest height. Then while at the same time as you turning your upper torso to the right you do a double palm strike front and back. Then repeat again on the left side.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

[Fu-Pow]

Joe-

So let me get this straight. The form which other lineages call Siu Sup Jee is called Tut Tsen by our lineage? Wow I did not know that.

Also, we do Che Kuen at our school, but only as a class. I don't think anyone has individually learned it from our Sifu. I don't think anyone at the school knows Lie Ma, Sifu said it was too boring.

I hadn't heard that "real" students learn Che Kuen and Lie Ma, rather, my Sifu says it is kind of intense to teach to new students, so he saves it for int/adv classes. But again we only do it as a class. You might think I'm just not at high enough level to have learned but thats not the case. I just started learning the crane form to give you an idea of my level.

Anyways, thanks for the info.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[CLFNole]

Actually Sow Choy put it up wrong. The order should have read:

1. Siu Moi Fah Kuen
2. Siu Sup Gee Kow Dah Kuen
3. Tuet Tsin Kuen
4. Siu Ping Kuen
5. Ng Ying Kuen

I believe that Siu Ping Kuen and Siu Sup Gee Kow Dah were shorted forms of the original longer ones added by leter CLF generations. Likely for demonstration purposes.

Peace.

[CLFNole]

Actually Sow Choy put it up wrong. The order should have read:

1. Siu Moi Fah Kuen
2. Siu Sup Gee Kow Dah Kuen
3. Tuet Tsin Kuen
4. Siu Ping Kuen
5. Ng Ying Kuen

I believe that Siu Ping Kuen and Siu Sup Gee Kow Dah were shorted forms of the original longer ones added by leter CLF generations. Likely for demonstration purposes.

Peace.

;)

[iron_silk]

So let me get this straight. It was not Siu Sup Gee but in fact a shorter version of Sup Gee Kau Dah? or is the form Siu Sup Gee a shorter version of Sup Gee Kau Dah?

and does your school teaches Sup Ji Jit Fu?

Thanks again!

[Fu-Pow]

The order in our school is basically the same:

Siu Mui Fa
Siu Sup Ji Kow Dah
Tuet Jin
Ng Ying
Fu Ying (or Fu-Pow Kuen,depending on body type)
Ping Kuen
Hok Ying

Then there are some other forms that Sifu taught....like Ping Jow and Che Kuen, but these were to people of various levels.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Eddie]

CLFNole
Thank you for the info. It does make allot of sense to me about bowing closer to the ground showing more respect. I do have a question though, lets say at a CLF gathering or tournament or function where there are allot of CLF seniors and elders, would it then not be disrespectful to perform those bows in a bow stance? I mean, would there not be some people who take offence or something like that? I’m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I realize that it sometimes pretty easy to offend some of these masters without intentionally doing so. Personally, I like the bow stance. I think bow stance gives the form a little more fluidity for displays or tournaments – but then again, what do I know.

Sow Choy,
Hi Joe. How’s it going? All is pretty well over here thanks. Its Summer, and it is close to the December holidays, so things couldn’t be better. You know we do everything backwards over here.

I also noticed that some stances are often more higher. Would that be a personal preference or is there some kind of story behind it? I noticed from Master Li Siu Hung, his stances were extremely Low and wide (Beautiful and very inspiring) in opposed to Master Lee Koon Hung (if you look at the pics in his books) who’s stances were a little more higher and somewhat more narrower (Please, I mean no disrespect to Master Lee Koon Hung or Master Li Siu Hung). At first, I just thought that master Lee Koon Hung might have been a little older when he wrote the books, but then after seeing his brother at, what I would believe approx. the same age as when Master Lee Koon Hung wrote the books, I gathered that this could not really have been the only reason. Movability could be an explanation, but then again, if your stances are solid enough and if you practice very often, it would not be that much of an issue. Do you know of maybe some other reasons behind the stances?

“CLFNole is my handsome CLF brother, “
How’s that for a school, so many handsome kung fu brothers! Guess the ladies must have a pretty good time watching the gents practice over there

“in your CLF styles do they represent the hands of a Shaolin monk at prayer?”
This is quite interesting – I remember you mention something like this to me before, Would this just be a symbolic gesture inside the application, rather than actually doing it as in the Shaolin prayer method (I can see the actual resemblance between the move and the Shaolin bow)? It’s amazing how many symbolic meanings are hidden in CLF forms.

BTW- I did send you an e-mail with some questions on some other techniques a while back – I gathered you were to busy with the new school. I’ll forward it again. How’s the new school going?

Alec,
“gwa choi palm strike in loq kwai ma” Pretty nice technique. Is it in allot of your forms?

Thanks for all the great info everyone. I think I pretty much speak for every CLF practitioner when I say that for the last few months CLF most certainly took over the Southern Style forum. Although the debates got very hot sometimes, I bet that everyone learned something new J. :) ;) ;)

[Eddie]

Sorry about those weird freaky smiles at the bottom of the page. I still dont completely have this whole thing under control.
I realise those smiles might look a little weird -it was intended somewhere else :)

Ag well......

[Sow Choy]

Fu-Pow & CLFNole,

I forgot about tut tsen kuen, which is taught after Siu Sup Gee.

Fu-Pow,
Do you begin Tut Tsen like Dai Sup Gee? Facing forward? The original begining is that way. But we begin with the left side to the front, like siu ping kuen.

Iron silk,
Yes the small forms are shortened versions of the originals, I believe they were shortened for demonstrations and tournaments.

Eddie,
I am not sure I received you email before. Make sure you use the email: leekoonhungkungfu@hotmail.com
or
jkeit1701@hotmail.com
I was having trouble a while ago, and just switched it all to hotmail.

Peace to All!

http://www.leekoonhungkungfu.com/images/JoewithHooks.jpg

[Fu-Pow]

Sow Choy-

When you say "Siu Sup Gee" do you mean "Siu Sup Gee Kow Dah"?

I know that Doc Fai Wong has in his book a form called Siu Sup Gee that is a different form than Sup Gee Kow Dah.

Anyways,

We start our Tuet Jin just like Sup Jee Kow Dah with the long begginning. We only do 1 bow at the begginning though, not 3 like how it was tradtionally taught.

Eddie-

In regards to Lee Koon Hung vs. Li Siu Hung's stances. No offense to Liu Siu Hung but I think he goes to low. If you read Lee Koon Hung's book on CLF he says that too low a stance is damaging to the health. More importantly I think it slows you down somewhat. My Sifu always tells us not to go too low.

Having trained in Hung Ga for a year I can see that low stance is important for that style because the foot work needs to be really solid. But for CLF because we are constantly twisting and spinning it can become a little cumbersome. Just my two cents from a intermediate student. May be my SiSuk Joe can address this issue more thoroughly having trained with both masters.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[CLFNole]

The reason that Li Siu Hung goes lower in his stances is more of a personal preference. He is very flexible from is Buk Sil Lum training from his brother Li Chun Hung.

Lee Koon Hung had more of the classic southern stances akin to those of Hung Gar. In some of his books his stances are lower than others. For example in his Foundamental Fist and Fan Form book his stances are generally low. The Dynamic Art of Fighting Book is more of a self defense and is geared more towards fighting and thus the stances are higher since low stances in fighting are not practical.

The point made earlier about being able to move better in a medium or higher stance is very true. If you have every seen tapes of Lee Koon Hung when he was younger he had medium stances and would sink into certain ones such as yum chop choy in sei ping ma.

Peace.

[Sow Choy]

Fu Pow,

Siu Sup Gee is the same as Siu Sup Gee Kow Da in our school. As far stances go, the book speaks of stance training and staying in a stance too long is not good for your health, not the height. Lee Koon Hung taught to finish moves with a lower stance, and move with a higher stance, but Li Siu Hung favors the same with lower horse or bow stances when finishing.

I like Li Siu Hung's way a little more for myself. Lee Koon Hung could get away with it, because he was so powerful in his forms. But other CLF masters are either too tight and don't extend enough, or just lack the power, but thats just my opinion, no offense to anyone.

Li Siu Hung believes in extension with lower stances to understand movement and power generation more, just like kicking. Kicking high is not favored by many style for fighting, but we train it to have the range and flexibility.

Thats how we look at forms, to increase our ability in movement, power, flexibility, stamina and of course technique. But it all depends on what you favor for your style.

Also students always tend to favor their sifu's style. But learning from both Masters Lee Koon Hung and Li Siu Hung has been an experience. At first it was difficult adapting to a new sifu. But it has been a great experience for me. They both have strong qualities, and I don't like to compare them, just admire them both for being who they were and are.

Take care Fu-Pow, tell Sifu Mak we all send regards!

Joe

http://www.leekoonhungkungfu.com/images/JoewithHooks.jpg

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks for the replies.

I think I remember a while back Li Siu Hung coming to our school. I was new at the school so it didn't really sink in as to who he was.

He showed us some stuff, but I think it was Bak Siu Lum.

I'll have to ask my Sifu about that.

Anyways, I prefer to keep a higher more traditional stance. I'm a big guy so if I sink to low in my stances its hard to keep moving. It's not that I can't do them low, it just slows me down. But you bring up an interesting point about finishing moves in a low stance. Does that actually increase power?

Hmmm...something to think about. I know that I sink when I do Yum Chop.

Peace.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif