extrajoshep 's help

[RAIN]

joseph x


i know you are more than a translator , but you are the only one i know and trust here for asking this . i need the translation to cantonese of these words . they are for name a kung fu school .
here we go :

- southern cross society ( in this name cross are the cross like the same of jesuschrist )

- southern siu lam & lama kung fu studio
- southern siu lam & tibetan kung fu studio ( in this two i know the translation but i need to know if the order of the words are correct )

thank you for you time and good luck .

[extrajoseph]

- southern cross society ( in this name cross are the cross like the same of jesuschrist )

Nam Seb Ji Wui

- southern siu lam & lama kung fu studio

Nam Sil Lum Pai Lama Kung Fu Gwoon

The Chinese characters can be seen in this webpage.

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/4098/

The third and forth chraracters down the page to the left says Lama.

- southern siu lam & tibetan kung fu studio ( in this two i know the translation but i need to know if the order of the words are correct )

Nam Sil Lum Pai Sai Jong Kung Fu Gwoon.

Studio is Kung Jok Sed strictly speaking, but very few people use this term, Gwoon is more in keeping with a Kung Fu school.

I put the word Pai after Nam Sil Lum to make it clear that both Lama and Tibetan styles belonged to Southern Shaolin School of martial arts.

thank you and good luck .

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

Extrajosepth

Lama Pai Kung-Fu is NOT a part of Southern Shaolin.

Lama (Tibetan Lion's Roar) has roots in Indian Kalari, Tibetan indigenous martial arts, and then influeneces from Western China, Mongolia, Northern China and finally, before it passed into Hong-Kong and the West South China.

It was a fully formed system well before entering the South, and its particular brand of Esoteric Vajrayana Buddhism (Tibetan Dorje) is far apart from Shaolin, either Northern or Southern.

It is commonly misnamed as 'Southern' because it was thru Canton that the art diseminated into Hong-Kong and the West.
Whilst in Canton, many Southern Shaolin stylists learned the art - either in whole or in part. Some then combined it with their Shaolin styles and these became hybridized lineages.

Some Lama Pai branches, retain the original Tibetan art:
"Senge-Ngwa Rang-Soong Dag-Stay". Some are still to be found in Northern China and Manchuria and are totally separate from Shaolin - again either Northern or Southern.

It depends therefore on lineage, but it is a gross inaccuracy to claim that Sai-Jong Si-Ji-Hao is Shaolin, it is not.

You quoted a web site, David Ross's... David Ross is probably the best authority on Lama Pai history in the West. It would be useful to ask him directly. He is very helpful and has access to many Chinese primary historical sources.

You could also look at: www.tibetankungfu.com which is an extensive site dedicated to the origin, history, development and practice of Tibetan Lion's Roar Lama martial arts, whether pure Tibetan or Chinese (Han) lineages.

Tao
www.tibetankungfu.com

[friday]

:) well said i was reading that second post and thinking hey!! thats not right hehe
u beat me to it with a better response than i could have put together :)

[friday]

hey Rain

btw
i remember one of your ppl sent me an inquiry ages ago on continuing to learn tibetan white crane kung fu. If you guys are serious about that u should pay a visit or contact my sihings in your areas.

unless youve found someone already :)

Friday

[extrajoseph]

I was only doing the translations for Rain into Cantonese, not knowing the history of Lama or Tibetan Kung Fu much, may be you guys can do a better job.

May be we should add the word "Yu" meaning "and" between Nam Sil Lum and Lama, and Nam Sil Lum and Sai Jong. But "Nam Sil Lum Yu Lama" and "Nam Sil Lum Yu Sai Jong" is a very cumbersome way of writing a name with 2 different styles and lumping them together.

Any better ideas?

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

No problems.

Maybe rain should identify which lineages he teaches/studies under?

Some in the Tibetan tradition call it "Han" Lama Pai, others "Sai-Jong" (Tibetan) Lama Pai.

rain in a private message just over a week ago, asked about accessing a Private All Tibetan Pai forum. I suggested that he apply, that way he could be put in touch with representatives from all the Major Tibetan Traditions.

He would certainly get any help that he needed there - no problem at all. He would also have been given the calligraphy and translations that he has asked for.

Alternatively, I offered to put any questions he may have to the Forum Members on his behalf.

He didn't reply.

Respect to your Choy-Lay-Fut Pai, a fine example of true Shaolin Kung-Fu.

Tao
www.tibetankungfu.com

[ezequiel]

extrajoseph

really thank you for take the time of answer me . i 'll going to use the names you give me .

friday

i'd wrote a lot of people about bak hok kung fu , but never i'd found good help . could you tell me in what location is your sifu '? I AM FROM SOUTHAMERICA .

tao yin lee


i'll going to send a personal story about my knoledge for get in on the tibetan forum soon .
i 'd learned from a lama master called wang ming shin who only teach part of his system and leave to europe . between the forms i know there is lau sing kuen or liu sing chuen and a conditioning arms drill called stars that is very long in comparition with the common sam sing found in other systems .

[RAIN]

sorry guys . i am working the computer of a kung fu friend and put my answer under his name .

extrajoseph

why you think put the word " yu " can sound cumbersome ?
what happens if the yu word is erased and i put the two systems names together ? some like :

nam sil lum kuen sai jong lama kuen kung fu gwoon
or

nam sil lum sai jong lama pai kung fu gwoon


tao yin lee

why you believe tibetan kung fu is so closed door system even in a new millenium . i am in favor of a student must show a lot of things before his teracher teach a valuable form , but all tibetan kung fu schools i'd contact become very closed .

[extrajoseph]

After talking to Prof. Liang who is a Chinese language expert, using the extra word Pai is still the best way to translate a name of a school that teaches two different systems. So they should be:

Nam Sil Lum Pai Lama Pai Kung Fu Gwoon

Nam Sil Lum Pai Sai Jong Pai Kung Fu Gwoon

Using the extra word Pai after each name separate them into two distinct styles. It is OK to use the word Kuen instead of Pai but not as good because Kuen could mean just one form or one set, whereas Pai definitely means a complete system.

Hope this helps.

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

Rain,

There will be as many likely answers to your question as there are individual Tibetan schools. Lots of Pai are secretive, not just Tibetan ones of course.

In some cases, the Tibetan arts are secret because of Tantric Buddhism. Tantrism is secret.

My read on things is that if you are sincere, and actually take up offers of help or assitance, then you'll get the help you need.

You've been offered help on this thread by more than one Tibetan Pai representative.

Tao
www.tibetankungfu.com

[JAZA]

Just as an outsider viewer lama kung fu is very similar to southern kung fu.
may be one influences the other.

[friday]

My sifu in Hong Kong has already 'shou san' stopped accepting new students who he teaches pak hok pai kung fu to.
u will have better luck contacting his students in your area.

there is a student in Italy with his own kwoon
Israel who learns under another guy from NY and has also spent a period of time revising with my sifu in HK.
there are people in the Philipines
Venezualia (hmm how do i spell that)
and students of my HK sifu in HK.

My sihing and sidai are of different levels of knowledge in the system. But there are a lot of sihing i would highly recommend.
however, whether they accept u as students will be up to u and them. not knowing u myself i will not be able to make any recommendations or referrals.

let me know if u are willing to travel to any of these locaitons and i'll give u the contact details.

friday

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

Jaza,

It depends on the system, some "Southern Kung-Fu" looks nothing at all like other equally 'southern' systems. Pak-Mei doesn't resemble Choy-Lay-Fut for example - at least not very much.

If you look at Lama systems, you can find similarities with 'northern', 'western', 'Mongolian', 'southern' - Kung-Fu, but also with some Burmese arts and definitely with Indian Kalari.
Also, there is the indigenous Tibetan arts too.

What people look for, they often 'see'.....

Its quite different however from the common fallacy that Tibetan Lama arts are part of 'Southern Shaolin'. They are not.

People sometimes mistake the entreport (Canton) for the origin (Tibet).

The only way to 'know' is to do it...

Tao
www.tibetankungfu.com

[RAIN]

friday


really thank you for you info . i am very interesed in the venezuela kwoon . i am in argentina and venezuela is a neighbord country . plese , if you can , give me more info about that venezuela teacher . maybe in a private message or email me at


lamakuen@hotmail.com

tao yin lee :


do you know some lama kwoon located in southamerica ?
can you find out that for me betwen your people ?

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

I'll certainly ask for you. Friday is well informed and well connected. He is a good source of information and advice.

I'll post your request on the Tibetan forum and inform you of any replies.

Tao
www.tibetankungfu.com

[JAZA]

Originally posted by Tao-Yin-Lee
What people look for, they often 'see'.....



Very True Tao, thats a point of cognoscence. The olny way to learn is to related with things you know.

Shaolin is said to come from India too, may be the relations come from it.
You have some moves similars to CLF, like kup choy and pou choy and charp choy.
Do you know if tibetan kung fu is still practiced in the Tibet monastery.?
People from my country go to the biggest Lama monastery in CHina in a tv program of the route of silk and show and old man with a big kwan dao.
They go inside the monastery, and doesn´t show kung fu or tantric practices, but said that the temple teach tantric for the monks.
One thing that call my attention was that the monks were very good in football soccer, they have very good leg coordination.

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

Jaza,

The Han people have always been very reserved about admitting the possibility of any 'foreign' influence on their culture, this is true therefore for their martial arts. Bodhidharma is said to have taught callisthenics with his Cha'n Buddhism, rather than Indian Kalari martial arts. Kalari practitioners often claim to the contrary -that Bodhidharma introduced their martial art to china, thus 'seeding' Shaolin Kung-Fu.

Both accounts give their protagonists much to lose or to gain.

With 'Tibetan' arts in China, there is no question that what has passed to the West thru Canton and Hong-Kong has very heavy Han influences, against the background of Tibetan, Mongolian, Machurian and Indian 'primary' sources.

Many Chinese 'Lama' Masters refer to what they do as 'Han Lama Pai', rather than Sai-Jong (Tibetan) Lama Pai. Many others openly acknowledge the Tibetan heart of the system. Both are legitimate, depending upon lineage and emphasis (cultural/martial).

Many Lama's in China where/are Han, Mongolian, Manchrian. Not all practiced the Lion's Roar martial art. Some practiced Ba-Gwa, and, indeed in some Lion's Roar linages, definite Ba-Gwa influences can be discerned.

As for Tibet itself, the situation vis-a-vis China is highly charged politically. This is due to the complex history of the two nations, but in recent times, as evidenced by the United Nations since 1950, the Tibetan ethnic culture has been seriously erroded, quite deliberately so, and the most appaling human rights violations including mass murder, torture, eviceration, beheading etc etc have been suffered by the Tibetan people from the Chinese invaders and occupiers.

In such circumstances, as in many other examples throughout history, martial arts are unlikely to be allowed to be openly taught.

Nevertheless, a project is underway to redress this, and work is in progress in coopertaion with the Office Of His Holiness The Dalai Lama - to return the Lion's Roar art to the Nation and People of Tibet.

The named techniques, Cup, Pow, Charp etc, yes they are found in the Chinese language nominalisms for the original Tibetan techniques, as is to be expected. In terms of structure, energy and dynamics, these named techniques may difer quite markedly between Choy-Lay-Fut and say Hop-Gar. Just as they do between the various branches of the Lama systems.

To give two techniques the same name is not to say that they are the same, just as with forms with the same name; they can be entirely different re sequence, content etc.

Notwithstanding this, known influences between Han and Tibetan systems may indeed support your point.

Tao
www.tibetankungfu.com

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

Rain,

Your request for information and assiatance has been posted.

Tao
www.tibetankungfu.com

[friday]

Hi Rain,

I'll have to contact my hk sifu for his details. i'll keep u posted and pass them onto u as soon as i get them.

Friday