Wingchuns Depth

[red5angel]

There are alot of threads currently on this forum about issues, changes, and supplements to wingchun. This all leads back to the same issue in my opinion. The pervading lack of understanding of our art. The misinformation spread by those who are out to make money and profit from "secrets discovered" or "perfected methods of training" and crap like that.
We have discussed how old wingchun might be, how far back its various lineages can be traced. We have discussed how it has been tested over the course of its long developement. We have also discussed possible changes for good or for bad, past and modern instructors have made to "improve" upon what is already a pretty tight art.
When I bring up the idea that some of this stems from a lack of knowledge and a desire to fill in that lacking, some of you get upset and go on the defensive but dont you think its in our best interest to look into rediscovering those things that may have been lost? How about spending enough time trying to understand the depth that is in this art, to see how deep the "rabbit hole" really is?
Do you really believe that it is wingchun that is lacking in something? Do you really believe that all those old ways of training are obsolete and can be so easily replaced? Is it really a question of the art, or is it a question of the practitioner?

[burnsypoo]

how's throwing your tai-chi ball around going for you?

[reneritchie]

red5angle stop trolling.

We all know WCK is a 5-10 dimensional art with only 4 being relatively flat and the reminder being curled up so much as to be practically non-existant except in how their information is transposed holographically to the relatively normalized continuum.

That or Tai Chi Balls.

RR

[red5angel]

burnsypoo, good actually. I am only working with an 18 lb bowling ball at the moment. Not sure where ot get a hold of the big taichi balls.

[yenhoi]

You cant measure something unless you have a big enough ruler. Or Microscope.

How do you know that things are lost? You dont know that you have misplaced your keys to your car, until its time to leave. You have to have the knowledge first, in order to lose it.

Sure you can look at a BIG book and THINK, wow thats a big book, and you can know you are on page 20, and that the book even has 6000 pages - but you wont know if those pages are full of BS or good **** - until you read it.

Anyways, I think your talking nonsense, to claim that any art is "deep" is silly. Anyone who puts time in on anything gets better at it.

[old jong]

One good thing to get depth in Wing Chun is; doing 1000 punches minimum each and every days coordinated with steps.
Practice Chi Sau using only the more direct and powerful motions and strikes and forget about the flowery combos.They would not work in the real world anyway!
Practice as hard as your training partner 's technique can allow and don't be affraid of being hit.
It's your opponent that should be deep....In troubles!;) :D

[red5angel]

Yenhoi, your post makes no sense to me. How do you know things are "lost"? You dont have to have the knowledge first, if it isnt passed on to you it was lost before it got to you. When a good portion of the population who studies it starts looking to fill percieved gaps instead of taking the time to learn it and figure it out. That also goes a long with your deep comment. I am not sure what you meant but most martial artist period only scratch the surface of their art. Its like a karate black belt who stops going to classes when he recieves his black belt. He feels he has learned all there is and has "finished" the system. If he were to continue practicing he would find there are plenty more answers and plenty more discoveries to be made and that black belt is just the beginning. If you dont see the depth in Wing chun Yenhoi you have to be blind, or arent training hard enough.

[Atleastimnotyou]

RR- the whole point of this forum is to discuss topics... whether or not you like this topic is irrelevant. Jason wasn't trolling, merely throwing something out there for disscusion.

[reneritchie]

Atleastimnotyou is incorrect.

FWIW, there's nothing inherently wrong with trolling, but you can also troll with style. Red5Angle has yet to learn that part. Doesn't mean his topics can't lead to interesting threads, but it does mean people will react (appropriately) to his trolling.

(Counting the days until R5A begins his threads:

I was discussing with my wingtsun friends recently the devastatingly effective Southern Chinese Martial Art...)

RR

[pvwingchun]

If you are talking true WC people I would disagree. If you are talking about those who want to learn 3 or 4 arts at once without being dedicated to one will lack knowledge of the intricacies I would agree for the most part as there will always be that one unusual individual who can do it all at once. But there is a great distinction between the two. Plus there are instructors who give the more dedicated of their students the deeper knowledge because they will remember it and use it. They simply aren't going to give it to someone who has been to 3 or 4 schools in the past year and are just looking to learn to fight, or someone who is going to run out of class and blab the information to their friends or head to the nearest chat room to give up the latest nugget of information that they have learned.

Knowledge comes in many forms and only time increases our knowledge. The true disciples of the art (any art) will always pass on to the best of their ability the art in its truest form, you simply have to search them out. Don't assume that there is a general lack of knowledge out there simply because you cannot find what you percieve to be knowledge (no offense intended) you simply need to search harder for what you percieve as knowledge.:)

[yenhoi]

Red5:

I was too vague: How do YOU know there is lost knowledge? How do YOU know that a good portion of the population who studies it starts looking to fill percieved gaps instead of taking the time to learn it and figure it out. and that most martial artist period only scratch the surface of their art. ???

Your posts always imply that Wing Chun is some magical special thing that will transform people into physical, mental, and spiritual completeness. There is nothing unique about Wing Chun martially, there is nothing unique about Wing Chun mentally, there is nothing unique about Wing Chun spiritually. Knowledge of fighting is knowledge of fighting, period. You wont become good at fighting or better at fighting merely because you practice a certain system of Wing Chun. If you spend your time and energy applying yourself to combat, you will naturally be better at combat.

All knowledge is eventually self-knowledge, to imply that some types of knowledge (wing chun) have more weight then other types of knowledge, is just plain wrong.

[red5angel]

pvwingchun - I disagree with your first point to a certain degree. I dont think you necessarily need to get "deeper" knowledge from your instructor, to me that smacks of "closed door" "secret technique" type stuff. I think if your instructor is willing (and able) to show you the basics, and help you refine them, then all you have to do is practice practice practice. I do agree that students just wandering through are going to miss some important information however, and that most instructors will probably sense your inattentiveness or lack of motivation and not bother expending too much energy on you.
On the need to search harder for better knowledge, I absolutely agree! I have posted many times on this subject :)

[pvwingchun]

Red


I do agree that students just wandering through are going to miss some important information however, and that most instructors will probably sense your inattentiveness or lack of motivation and not bother expending too much energy on you.

This is what I am talking about when I say "there are instructors who give the more dedicated of their students the deeper knowledge because they will remember it and use it."

I am not talking about secret techniques just a deeper discussion to help the understanding of what we do. You can just once over a subject or you can discuss it in depth, this is where I am coming from.

[red5angel]

pvwingchun, thanks for the clarification, I understand and like I said, generally agree with you.

[Merryprankster]

There is nothing unique about Wing Chun martially, there is nothing unique about Wing Chun mentally, there is nothing unique about Wing Chun spiritually. Knowledge of fighting is knowledge of fighting, period. You wont become good at fighting or better at fighting merely because you practice a certain system of Wing Chun. If you spend your time and energy applying yourself to combat, you will naturally be better at combat.

Stop with the obscenities yenhoi. You're making me blush. :D

[red5angel]

Yenhoi, you may be misinterpreting my post. If you will notice, I post in the wingchun forum, not on the general forum, so no claims that wingchun is the top of the heap, although for my personal choice it is the best I have found. It may not suit everyone. There are many ways to fight, not all of them involving the martial arts but so we are clear, since this is a wingchun forum and I practice wingchun I generally am refering to wingchun. Periodically I may discuss another art as it relates to wingchun or there abouts, but never claimed it is the end all to be all.

"If you spend your time and energy applying yourself to combat, you will naturally be better at combat"

This I can agree with whole heartedly. I would also tack on that while fighting is a matter of chance mostly, martial arts in general allow us to increase our own personal chances.

"to imply that some types of knowledge (wing chun) have more weight then other types of knowledge, is just plain wrong."

You may have misunderstood here Yenhoi. While the thread is labeled wing chuns Depth, it could very well be labeled with any other art taking the place of the words wing chun, it seemed more apropriate however in a wingchun forum. I only study wingchun for combat, and so it is what I am going to discuss but most of the time.

So, to recap, I agree, there are others ways of doing it but since I do wingchun and this is a wingchun forum that will probably be the topic of my posts' about 95% of the time, ok?

[azwingchun]

I personally believe this when I tell my students or anyone else for that matter, that there are only so many ways to punch, kick, block and evade and whatever else I am leaving out. With the exception to the theories and principles behind each arts reason for doing so. So with this in mind, I tell people to find the art they are happy with and train hard, the key is as mentioned earlier, practice, practice and practice again. So, until we grow more arms and legs and our heads can turn 360 degrees, looking for more in a specific art than what is humanly possible is a waste of time and effort. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't look beyond what is being taught to you by an instructor, but to look closely at the theories and principles in the system of choice and then experiemnt on what works and what doesn't. Does this make sense?
I remember when I first started training in Wing Chun, I was always asking "Can I do this, can I do that?" and my Sifu's response was "quit asking what can I do and ask yourself what can't you do.". His reason for this reply was that I would find many less things that I couldn't do with Wing Chun then there were things I could do. I don't know if this makes much sense to anyone else, but it really allowed myself to look beyond just what my Sifu was showing me. I find the articles about how people change certain aspects of the forms, chi sao, footwork etc. interesting, though I don't give them much merit. I feel that all they are doing is changing the look of there forms and training drills on the outside, but on the inside one who looks deep enough into their art would have found them anyway. I hope no one takes this as criticism, it is but a viewpoint, and the way I choose to train my Wing Chun. ;)

[TjD]

Originally posted by old jong
One good thing to get depth in Wing Chun is; doing 1000 punches minimum each and every days coordinated with steps.
Practice Chi Sau using only the more direct and powerful motions and strikes and forget about the flowery combos.They would not work in the real world anyway!
Practice as hard as your training partner 's technique can allow and don't be affraid of being hit.
It's your opponent that should be deep....In troubles!;) :D


AMEN old jong!! WE MUST DESTROY!

in chi sau we give them some of our poison, fighting is letting it all out :D

screw throwing your chi balls around,

punch a lot
chi sau a lot
do your forms

[anerlich]

I was discussing with my wingtsun friends recently the devastatingly effective Southern Chinese Martial Art...)

Rene, I've met Luke Beston. He's actually a nice enough chap and very knowledgeable about his chosen art. Ace troller as well :cool:

[anerlich]

The study of a subject benefits from deep study, to be sure, but occasionally insights come from lateral thinking. Sometimes the study of an associated subject can provide a fresh viewpoint which enhances one's understanding of the original subject.

Assuming that lateral thinking should be the major course of learning would, IMHO, be a mistake. But sometimes it can make a great deal of difference.

As for secrets, I feel they have a place in the art. Among other things, there is value in controlling the flow of information to students, for them as well as for the coach.

I wrote an article on the subject on Rene's site should anyone be interested.

[old jong]

Good article!...:cool:

Everybody!... Let's do a few hundred pak da! ;)

[Fresh]

Originally posted by red5angel
There are alot of threads currently on this forum about issues, changes, and supplements to wingchun. This all leads back to the same issue in my opinion. The pervading lack of understanding of our art. The misinformation spread by those who are out to make money and profit from "secrets discovered" or "perfected methods of training" and crap like that.
We have discussed how old wingchun might be, how far back its various lineages can be traced. We have discussed how it has been tested over the course of its long developement. We have also discussed possible changes for good or for bad, past and modern instructors have made to "improve" upon what is already a pretty tight art.
When I bring up the idea that some of this stems from a lack of knowledge and a desire to fill in that lacking, some of you get upset and go on the defensive but dont you think its in our best interest to look into rediscovering those things that may have been lost? How about spending enough time trying to understand the depth that is in this art, to see how deep the "rabbit hole" really is?
Do you really believe that it is wingchun that is lacking in something? Do you really believe that all those old ways of training are obsolete and can be so easily replaced? Is it really a question of the art, or is it a question of the practitioner?

Geeze Red, whats wrong with you?

A lot of people were haveing friendly discussions. A lot of them were even promoting some of the same points and agruments you made but in a polite and respectable way. Then you have to go and start your own gripe and moan thread cause you or you and your sifu didn't get all the credit for the ideas yourself. It would be bad if anyone else was allowed to get away with a legitmate thought huh?

Even worse, you had to get all condesending like usual to no one in particular and everyone in general like you are the only one with half a brain here. Maybe you are right about that.

Looks like you will never figure out that people come first. Until you figure that out no one is gonna care if you are the messiah of wing chun or not. I can't believe you are so clueless and keep on hurting your own cause. Do you think anyone used to you here takes you seriously?

Be honest man. You just do this for the attention right?

[canglong]

Red5 I agree with most of what you have stated but as a newbie I just might see it a little differently. That would be I find more people are interested in either teaching or teaching the history of WCK as apposed to learning WCK. Like old jong I adhere to the ideology that more practice will make better WCK and should you show up at your kwoon and find you did not learn anything on this day don't run out an open your own school first find another kwoon and verify your findings are correct.

[EnterTheWhip]

There are holes in the system, that need to be investigated. I'm certain that most are aware of it.... Red's main problem is that he thinks Dechiara has the answers.

[YungChun]

There is nothing unique about Wing Chun martially, there is nothing unique about Wing Chun mentally, there is nothing unique about Wing Chun spiritually. Knowledge of fighting is knowledge of fighting, period.


This is just plain fallacy. Yes fighting is fighting but there are a million+ ways to get there. Earning a living is earning a living - but there are a million+ ways one can earn a living. One could be a carpenter, a blacksmith, a pilot, a lawyer, a doctor, whatever. Each of these disciplines will allow the practitioner to earn a living just as many different styles of combat will allow one to 'fight' or to defend oneself. This does not mean that all styles are the same because they all teach you to 'fight' anymore than all vocations are the same because they all allow you to earn a living.

Wing Chun has many unique attributes and aspects, some that are shared in other arts and some that are not. This could be said by any real martial art – these differences are what make any real art a martial treasure, to be preserved and a joy to watch and study - period.

[Merryprankster]

Yung, I think you missed the point--he's arguing that Mastery of WC doesn't give you secret fighting knowledge any better than, say, Mastery of Shuai Chiao.

That doesn't mean they are the same animal, just that there's nothing inherently "better," about WC than another system if both are properly trained.... there might be something better for YOU or something one system is "better" at than another, but he's simply arguing that WC isn't any more "special," than any other system out there.

[vingtsunstudent]

hey anerlich
have i missed something somewhere?
why the reference to luke, whats he been up to now or should i say who has he been stirring up now?
where can i go to see this work, so that next time i see him i can ask him about it.
vts

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by red5angel
There are alot of threads currently on this forum about issues, changes, and supplements to wingchun. This all leads back to the same issue in my opinion. The pervading lack of understanding of our art. The misinformation spread by those who are out to make money and profit from "secrets discovered" or "perfected methods of training" and crap like that.
We have discussed how old wingchun might be, how far back its various lineages can be traced. We have discussed how it has been tested over the course of its long developement. We have also discussed possible changes for good or for bad, past and modern instructors have made to "improve" upon what is already a pretty tight art.
When I bring up the idea that some of this stems from a lack of knowledge and a desire to fill in that lacking, some of you get upset and go on the defensive but dont you think its in our best interest to look into rediscovering those things that may have been lost? How about spending enough time trying to understand the depth that is in this art, to see how deep the "rabbit hole" really is?
Do you really believe that it is wingchun that is lacking in something? Do you really believe that all those old ways of training are obsolete and can be so easily replaced? Is it really a question of the art, or is it a question of the practitioner?

Wing Chun is missing groundfighting. If it was ever a truly complete art, it would have that covered as it is a 'pretty important' area to say the least.

Other than that, it was a silly question to begin with.

[anerlich]

Luke Beston often includes in his posts on the Underground Forum lines such as ...

"I was discussing with my jiudoka friends ... "

and

"the devastatingly effective South American art of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu"

which is what I assume Rene based his lines on.

That's all.

[vingtsunstudent]

ah, now i get it.
i personally don't frequent that forum but i do know of lukes love to stir.
he is a quite a good guy, as i'm sure you know, he just that little **** stirring streak which is always good for a laugh.
he's actually(at least i think he still is) enjoying a holiday in hawaii at the moment and is/was staying with royce gracies cousin, who so i've been told is quite a good sort.
such a hard life for some:(
on a side note one of my mates who trains with luke(and used to train with us) dropped around one of his old krugans the other day just incase i ever feel the urge to have a roll with him and cop a good chokin'.
vts

[yenhoi]

Fresh:

nice flame.
:rolleyes:

Yung:

What MerryPrankster said.

Red5:

I wasent really attacking your use of Wing Chun, or you.

Wing Chun teaches you to attack.

[red5angel]

Yenhoi, no problem man, it sounded like you may have been having a bad day or something so I just wanted to clarify.

Fresh - pay attention man!

Ultimate fighter - really?