Tradition, flowery language, qi etc.

[joedoe]

I was wondering what your thoughts are on tradition etc. in CMA. Is the use of flowery language and traditional Chinese concepts of Qi etc. relevant to modern practice, or should we do away with that and try to express our understanding of TCMA in modern (scientific) terms?

Personally I think that there is value in the old terminology and ways of thinking. On the other hand, I think that if you can successfully translate the concepts into the modern scientific paradigm it might help people to understand them easier.

My other thoughts centre around the TCMAs as a cultural heritage, and if you view it from that point of view is it right to try and mold it to the Western paradigm of thought? Or should we view it as a more personal thing and so making the practitioner free to do with it as they will?

Give me your thoughts, for and against. :)

[Serpent]

Get three people to translate the same Chinese phrase for you. Even the simplest thing. Then you'll see exactly why the Chinese is kept! ;)

[iron thread]

I believe that theory should be considered in situation and circumstance. For example, a full democracy is good in theory. In America, however, there are millions of citizens. And therefore, a representative government as opposed to a full democracy, is more appropriate. Otherwise, every American citizen would have to make a vote and decision on everything, and that will just not work. In this case, the ideas back then are good. Just hope to keep it in a sense that everybody will understand. We aren't necessarily changing theories, just terminology.

[joedoe]

I guess that is part of my question though - do we lose anything by changing terminology? Can the translation be close enough that we do not lose any of the essence of the original thought? Or is that a pointless concern? i.e. what we lose in translating the concepts, we gain overall because it is more widely understood/accepted because of the translation.

[Former castleva]

A good question.
I know many seem to be p**sed off by CMA and tradition of it appearing mystical and some tend to feel a need to tell that this mysticism is what keeps people entering kwoon´s and keeping ignorant students...

Besides modern science,in which I think at least part of CMA structure can be explained,even though we are talking of something really old it still has kept developing and rather than a poor excuse for something which one should know better,this cultural tradition and CMA/TCM/it´s related philosophy is a science on it´s own,with different approach and manners.

[Braden]

People have the wrong idea as to what 'modern science' means.

Unless you are a scientist; and in particular, one in a pertinent field, such as physiology and/or physics, your musings or 'explanations' of chinese martial arts are not likely to have anything to do with 'modern science.' Even if you are such a scientist, unless you have done experiments or are basing your remarks off of existing literature, you are still not making 'modern scientific' statements.

Assuming you believe the chinese concepts to be the product of a chinese folk belief, when you translate them into what you think is 'modern scientific' language, all you are doing is exchanging a chinese folk belief for an american/european folk belief. This has nothing whatsoever to do with modern science, and you are deluding yourself if you think this is the case. All this accomplishes is the appeasment of your own cultural biases. It does not make the concepts any more valid, nor the teaching any more transparent, save for how it diminishes your prejudice; and this is at the cost of imperfect translation.

Moreover, if you're replacing prejudice for delusions that what you say is scientific, then you are taking a step backwards, not forwards.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Some of these comments are spot on. Some Chinese ideas are so easily mistranslated and then the concept may not have access to enough English interpreation to keep its meaning in tact. Or indeed if someone does claim to translate it, it gets misunderstood and then people are under the illusion that they have the understanding.
Good example of this is the appalling translation of The secret treatise of the Golden Flower by Richard Wilhelm. He missied out essentials and misinterpreted vital information and thus made a right pigs ear of the text. There are many other examples.

[SaMantis]

Going aside from correct/incorrect translation, many of the "flowery phrases" IMO were developed to improve the students' retention of the move they were learning.

When my sifu was teaching us 8-section brocade, he recited the description of each in Chinese. Each phrase rhymed with the next, so the entire exercise is described within a poem.

In the oral tradition (worldwide), rhyming was considered the best way to pass a story along through several regions. Poems were easier to memorize and recite accurately.

Can these flowery phrases be rewritten in a detailed, scientifically accurate format? Like you're all saying, that's a tricky question because many of the images in the phrases are metaphors, and they relate best to the culture and language in which they were created. So it's a tough issue to tackle in that respect.

Were the phrases created to keep the art "mysterious"? I don't believe so. Students applied their understanding of the metaphors to the movements they were learning.

[Leto]

'wild horse spreads the mane' or 'horse throwing the hair'...
'white crane circling wings', 'hands play a guitar', 'under the sleeve plant the hammer'...etc...(these are just from Tai Chi Chuan) are these the types of flowery phrases you mean?

If by the 'flowery language', you mean the phrases used to describe movements and stances, and the names of forms...like SAMantis said, they were created for easier retention. poetic phrases to go along with the forms, so that it would be easier to remember. In Chinese, it might have rhymed, making it even easier, once you know what move correlates to each phrase. The same was done learning medicine, herbs...rhyming poems made it easier to remember all the types of herbs and what they're for.

Sure, it's possible to describe all the moves and forms based on the physical movements. Instead of 'Close as if sealed', you could say 'roll hands in towards body and press out', or whatever. But in the traditional way, complete forms, 'poems', could be given to practicioners, written down, and those not 'initiated' could not steal the style, since they don't know what each verse means.

[dnc101]

According to Dr. Yang, Jwing- Ming, in his book 'Tai Chi Martial Applications': "Many of the applications of the forms have been hidden in the names of the forms. An example is "Pick up Needle from Sea Bottom." In Chinese, the perineum is called the Sea Bottom (Hai Di), and so a main application of the form is to attack the groin." In subsequent explanations, Dr. Yang shows that it is often the movement or the manner of application that is described in the name. To me this would suggest that, instead of throwing out the flowery Chinese terms, it would be better to try to understand (as opposed to merely translating) them.

[eulerfan]

I just want to add that these terms were not created to make it seem mystical. Chinese dialects are metaphorical in nature. You would tell somebody to be careful by literally saying, "Small Heart." It just isn't as literal as our language.

[SaMantis]

Yes, for example in one of the latest forms I learned, each move has a vivid description. In English they translate to things like "Little ghost waving the flag," "Old man fishing," and "Open the window to look at the moon."

I don't speak Chinese so I don't know how these phrases are literally written/spoken or if there are alternate translations, though I'm sure these are the closest translations to the actual movements.

[Stacey]

braden is right,

besides all your thinking about chi only scatters it.

[Budokan]

I think changing the "flowery" names of techniques into stripped-down modern ones does change the essence of MA. (But not, of course, its effectiveness.) MA is more about just the techniques, the styles, it's about the flow of information from the past, the atmosphere that is naturally inherent in the style, the "feel" if you will, of a particular martial art.

We call the place we train a kwoon or a dojo for a reason, rather than a gym -- which, of course, is all it truly is. We use traditional terms because it gives us a linkage to the past. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this and, yes, I think it does add something (though it may be intangible in many respects) to the overall feel of a martial art. It does not add or detract from said art's effectiveness, but it does add to the atmosphere of the art.

Look at it this way. You can drink water when you have BBQ with friends, or you can drink beer, or even a good Zinfandel. All are appropriate, but two (and possibly one) add an intangible flavor to the experience that makes it that more enjoyable. :D

[joedoe]

A lot of good food for thought. Thanks for your answers guys. Some of your answers raised a very similar question in my mind.

Should we be trying to explain TCMA concepts in modern terms e.g. qi, jing, kung etc. or should we simply accept that they are concepts from a completely different thought paradigm? Or is there value in exploring those concepts in a modern framework?

[rubthebuddha]

i think that keeping the intent of the names is important, if the names had intent behind them. i know little of the taichi names, but i do know that they had a purpose. same as wing chun. the names in wc are simple -- fook sau means palm on. could be with your palm on your opponent's arm, head, shoulder, tan sau, bong sau, etc. doesn't matter. just means palm on. bong sau means wing arm, so when your arm is "winged" in a certain way, it's a bong sau, regardless if it's low or high or a little to the side or whatever.

i think if you remove something that had a purpose behind it, then you remove part of the art and possibly remove something very vital to it, either as a tradition or as part of the training.

[iron thread]

Hm...I'm wondering how it would work to keep the traditional and modern..say you have the traditional, then the "in other words..."?

[joedoe]

TTT

[TkdWarrior]

good thread...
well i'll talk about tradition or using of flowery words by Indian tradition which is more close to me rather than Chinese...
most of u guys know about the sanskrit word "OM" now this is one word which can be pronounced quite differently by different ppl n it's prounciation change from north india to south india...
this word OM has some healing properties when done rite...
i mean breathing n intent.. if u don't understand how is it pronouncing rite then u won't get it's properties... like some ppl pronounce it like OOOMm... or OOOooMMMmm(big letters mean high pitch)so if u try to keep ur tradition alive u'll learn exactly the rite way to do it..otherwise u might miss wat can be very useful to u...
while talkin about chinese/japanese/watsoever tradition
so i think u should try to grasp wat's given n then try to best to find out more...M i talkin mystics here?? no... it's again expressing
urself...
and then it's not easy to translate from one language to another sometimes there r words which doesn't exists in other language then u hav to go with the closest possible...
even translating ur experience can be difficult... let's assume u just fall in luv,... can u translate fallin in luv for us?? u might end up goin closest words possible... but will those words gave us the same feeling even when we all so curious about to know how luv felt??
think about it..
-TkdWarrior-

[prana]

Originally posted by joedoe
I guess that is part of my question though - do we lose anything by changing terminology? Can the translation be close enough that we do not lose any of the essence of the original thought? Or is that a pointless concern? i.e. what we lose in translating the concepts, we gain overall because it is more widely understood/accepted because of the translation.

Hey buddy, nice topic.

There is no true translation for certain words like

Cantonese English ?
"Hei" air, breath, light, energy
"Sum" heart, mind, intent, thought

What I like best is when "some" people label it "new age" :D I guess, for me, east is more modern in that respect :cool:

But honestly, we should teach each other, east and west, instead of compete between Eastern and Western.

[joedoe]

Hmmmm. More good thoughts.

prana - you have a good point about some words having no English equivalent.

So do you think that Chinese speakers - whatever dialect - have an advantage over others in learning TCMA?

[prana]

TBH, none advantage at all.

I think much of Traditional Medicine relies on experience.

For example, the old heaers were not allowed to pray, chant or meditate on any healing deities when they got sick, not take medicines. They were required to sit in meditation until they discover the reason why they got sick (I am guessing all the Westerners will jump on this right here right now). WHenI say sick, I mean things like flus or headaches or lung ache etc, as opposed to a broken bone from a fall etc. They need to discover for themselves what karmic retribution caused the sickness (illness) and find away to cure it.

As such, knowing many words is useless, he needs to walk that path and discover it experientially. (Not that I know either), I guess, that be why I have very high respects for healers.

edit: I can see I might have opened a can of worms here, but what I am getting at is, no matter what color, language, dialect, whatever, the healer needs to "know-thyself"