Wingchun precision

[red5angel]

Wing Chun is efficient and direct. To be efficient and direct you need to be precise. Precise in body structure, joints and bones aligned correctly at all times. Precise in striking, don't waste energy on flowery motions, go straight to the point you choose to strike. Precision in training, if you train to be 100% precise then when you fight, and that precision starts to degrade, it only degrades a little under the pressure instead of a lot. Precision in forward intent and pressure matching, if you are giving too much it can be taken, if you are giving too little, it can be broken.
Are you practicing and training with enough precision? Are you sure?

[reneritchie]

2.3

Your posts might move from trolling to valuable contributions if you make even subtle attempts at 'tone' change. EG:

Instead of: "Are you practicing and training with enough precision? Are you sure?"

How about: "How do we make sure we practice and train with enough precision?"

RR

[red5angel]

RR, tone is not important to me. I didnt get into wingchun and I dont study the art to make friends, if the tone offends you so be it, but that doesnt change the contents of the post and you as an adult should be able to move past it. As one of those adults you might even be able to look at the "tone" and get on to the content as well.
Remember Rene its about precision..........

[reneritchie]

red5angel is incorrect. The 80s were the 'me' generation. It is now the 00s. Especially in martial arts, respect is important, not just to help build and maintain a strong, beneficial community, but to keep the door open to our own continued learning.

What you study may not be as good as you think it is, and what you know may not be as good as you think it is, so leaving the door open for others to share is always a good thing. Good 'tone' engenders sharing, bad 'tone' does not provoke it (at least anything useful).

RR

[yenhoi]

If you are precise then you are 100% on the money correct, there is no increments of precision.

If you are precise most of the time or all the time, then you are accurate, but if you are accurate, then you might not be precise all the time.

All your precise angles and this and that are only precise when you do your forms, or drills, or what not. As soon as there is someone besides Mr Air in front of you, every small little thing changes.

Sensitivity. Thats what I want. Precision follows.

[aelward]

yenhoi writes:
> Sensitivity. Thats what I want. Precision follows.

On top of that, I want adaptability. When there is pressure on the outside of my arm, I want to use my sensitivity to adapt and turn that arm into a bong sao. Accurately.

Now, if you are so precise, yet you are putting so much muscle into the precision that you are neither sensitive nor adaptable, then you may have a very precise attack where an opponent is no longer standing.

[red5angel]

"Now, if you are so precise, yet you are putting so much muscle into the precision that you are neither sensitive nor adaptable, then you may have a very precise attack where an opponent is no longer standing."

No you would not, you would not have precision.

Yenhoi, agreed hence the need to train as precisely as possible, so that when it hits the fan your skill doesnt fail you completely.

[Zhuge Liang]

Originally posted by red5angel
if the tone offends you so be it, but that doesnt change the contents of the post...

It doesn't change the contents of the post, but it directly affects how your post is received. I get the impression that the vast majority of people here don't take you seriously, including members of your own family, and that's a direct consequence of the tone of your posts. If all you want is a soap box to stand on to voice your opinions, then you're doing great. Nothing needs to be changed. However, if you want people to actually listen to you and take you seriously, then you're failing miserably. Do you actually want to communicate, or are you just interested in preaching? If it's the former, then it behooves you to take Rene's advice and learn to communicate with a little more respect. If all you care about is preaching the "truth of Wing Chun," then at least admit it.

But my spider sense tells me that I'm going to get a response like "I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your concern..." or to paraphrase, "p!ss off, I'll do whatever I want."

The cycle repeats, oh well...

Zhuge Liang

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

R5A,
I've actually been meaning to ask you about this for some time now, and always seem to have forgotten to:

Why exactly do you post on here?

What's your "purpose" in posting?

[red5angel]

Sandman, weeeeelllll since you asked:

I have studied wingchun for a few years now, and have some background in karate as well. Recently, especially in the past 10-15 years or so, Martial arts in general has begun a down hill slide into mediocrity. Too many people teaching who shouldnt be because they have just enough knowledge to be dangerous. Havent taken the time to truly understand what it is they are studying, and are more interested in the prestige of being a Sifu, or making money doing it, to really care what damage they do.
Now granted not all instructors are this way. In karate I managed to find a really good school where the instructors seemed more interested in teaching the real thing then going with trends or making money. I am sure all of us have come across people like this, and some of us may even be like that.
Once I got into Wing Chun I found I had a strong passion for the art. I liked its simplicity and its directness, its efficiency and its economy of motion, etc.... I decided this was the art I wanted to learn.
I began to learn from a person who at the time appeared to be really good. He talked the talk very well and he was very athletic and dynamic. Eventually my life took me to travelling cross country for a while and so I got the chance to go to several wing chun schools across the country and I noticed two things. First, that most of it was very very similar, but didnt really impress me. It seemed too much like karate, hard, stiff. While these guys were talking about doing it the wingchun way they were not and I began to question why.
By the time I settled back down to minnesota I was pretty disenchanted with the whole thing. I decided after a 6 month break to go looking again in the area to see what was out there. I was trying to get in touch with my first instructor to get back with him but I wasnt totally happy with that. he wasnt teaching anyone anything else I hadnt seen out there.
I finally came across these guys in minneapolis who were doing things a little differently. I met Carl at a seminar he was holding here and was impressed by his depth of knowledge and his ability. On top of that, my old instructor happened to be attending the seminar and I watched him spar with Carl. It showed me that what this guy had, that was very much like the other stuff I had come across out there, wasnt working for him, he couldnt keep up.
I discuss the things I do here because while everyone is getting along and playing great big game of grabass with each other, the art is sliding into the pits of mediocrity still, and instead of people looking to find the depths of wingchun, it seems quite a few are too busy playing virtual sifu, or mixing and matching with other wingchun (not so bad) and other arts (horrible idea).
There is a whole lot of talking the talk (thats easy) and not a whole lot of walking the walk.

[red5angel]

continued........

Now I have a real passion for the art, as well as some other people out there. some do it as a hobby, and some do it for other reasons. Wingchun is a fighting art, there are no if ands or buts about that, If you dont understand that is the bottom line then you dont get wingchun. Most of us I assume are learning it for self defense. That means that I am training it so if I have to use it it has probably come down to a life or death situation (and if you think a little bar room or frat party scuffle cant be life threatening do some research) and that I am going to use it it better do what it is designed to do. It doesnt matter to me if it loks cool, or makes me look real hard, I just hope it puts the threat down before the threat puts me down.

Karate. Karate was once a very respectable art, and in some circles still is. But everyone here knows in general it has become the butt of many a martial art joke, because it has become watered down and any serious martial artist knows that about 99% of the karate being taught out there aint worth a ****. why is this? Because it was allowed to slide into mediocrity by its practitioners who had fooled themselves into believeing that the 4 hour a week, slap on the back training sessions made them lethal fighters or atleast good at defending themselves.
Do you want wingchun to go that route? Would it be easier for you to see a wingchun kwoon on every block, watching people flail away at chi sau and gettinga good family workout? I wouldnt. I would rather it remain an obscure, hard to find but worth the search kind of art then that. Even better would be the idea that it can grow to popularity and still retain its worth.

Call it a rant, call it a crusade, call it what you will. I know most people wont pay attention. The idea is that at the very least someone will look at a post or two, anyones post, not just mine, and start to question, and start to search. Martial arts is as important today as it was hundreds of years ago. Do you really think Martial arts guys got into fights all the time? Do you really think all fights or attacks lead to guns? I have lived a normal life, relatively speaking and can think of countless times some good martial training has, or could have come in handy. I think for these very reasons wingchun needs to retain its integrity.

As for the forum Sandman, being a nice guy can pay off, and thats fine, I can be a nice guy, but people are going to get ****ed off here when they hear something they dont like regardless. I am just not worried about it that much, while some of my threads turn into a mess some of them get some great conversations going and thats fine by me, you cat win them all.

[rubthebuddha]

didn't answer the question, at least logically. if everyone here's playing grabass, then why bother with everyone here?

what's the point in asking if we're practicing precision, and then asking if we're sure about it? are YOU practicing precision, and are YOU sure, in your mighty three years of wing chun experience in a family that doesn't take you all that seriously, that you're being precise?

rhetoric and curiosity are quite different. the latter comes from wanting more for yourself, the former, as in the case of this question, comes from wanting others to feel like less. if you're genuinely concerned about other people's precision, ask them why the feel they're precise and how they got there. if you just want to irritate people with jabs, questions like the one posted at the beginning of this thread will go a long way.

[red5angel]

Well rubthebuddha?

[anerlich]

Sandy,

well, you asked. :rolleyes:

While it is important to practice precisely some if not most of the time, in a truly random, pressure situation "performance overrides precision".

IMO some of the other necessary attributes for proficiency in MA, particularly flow and continuity are best practised without an emphasis on precision. Too much attention to detail and precision in learning to flow can get in the way of the latter.

Train for precision sometimes, emphasise other attributes other times.


There is a whole lot of talking the talk (thats easy) and not a whole lot of walking the walk.

So maybe post less and train more.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Originally posted by anerlich
Sandy,
well, you asked. :rolleyes:
.
You know, for some bizzare reason I expected the answer to be more concise than that.

But hey, at least now we don't have to conjecture.

R5A, I guess mabye you hadn't considered this, but nobody wants your "crusade". That being the case, what's the point really? Besides, couldn't you devote all your crusader time into training time, and come show us we're wrong later on when you are finished? Wouldn't that be better than constantly sluring everyone outside your line?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by red5angel
Sandman, weeeeelllll since you asked:

I have studied wingchun for a few years now, and have some background in karate as well. Recently, especially in the past 10-15 years or so, Martial arts in general has begun a down hill slide into mediocrity. Too many people ................blah, blah, blah, blah, blah .................................There is a whole lot of talking the talk (thats easy) and not a whole lot of walking the walk. Well, so much for precision. :rolleyes:

Matrix

[anerlich]

But hey, at least now we don't have to conjecture.

I dunno. You asked "why?" and all we got was "History of red5angel, the Oprah Winfrey and Dr Phil of the Wing Chun forum" version XXXVIII, which anyone who's been on here more than a month or so has heard several times already.

So why? No wait, DON'T answer that .... PLEASE .. I withdraw the question.. NOOOOO..

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by red5angel
Well rubthebuddha?

well what?

if you're curious if i'm as precise as i could be, either in technique or in training, the answer is an emphatic no. it's why i train -- to get better both in what i do and how i do it.

no beginner has a clue if they're as precise as they can be. as you progress, you begin to understand your imprecisions and remove them the same as you'd peel a layer off an onion.

so no, i'm not as precise, nor will i claim to be. and i don't know anyone on the WC forum who has any business claiming as such outside of joy, kathy, david, rene and a couple others who have business making such a claim.

what i DO believe is that you have a good idea talking about training FOR precision and training WITH precision. they are different, and they are both equally important. i just disagree with prodding rhetorically at people and their training with the intent to annoy them.

[TwoManSaw]

Hello all

I have only posted here a few times, but have been an active browser preety much since i started my training in W.C a little over 2 years ago.

For much of this year red5angel has caused some controversy, he has also brought up some good points. My concern with r5a crusade is that as RR pointed out, the tone of his post's really dont encourage sharing and I often wonder who he is preaching to.

The main reason I thought i would reply to this thread is that I was wondering whether r5a would like it if we were all carbon copies of him. Whereby all W.C practioners came from the same lineage and performed and thought about W.C like he does.

I personally love my Wing Chun and I have no doubt that r5a loves his. I just think that if r5a were to realise that 'there is more than one way to skin a cat' ( thus, more than one way to practice W.C) you may find theres a whole other world out there in which can you be part of and share with. And wonderfully this will only improve your wing chun not make it worse or tarnish it with bad ideas.

[Redd]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
rhetoric and curiosity are quite different. the latter comes from wanting more for yourself, the former, as in the case of this question, comes from wanting others to feel like less. if you're genuinely concerned about other people's precision, ask them why the feel they're precise and how they got there. if you just want to irritate people with jabs, questions like the one posted at the beginning of this thread will go a long way.

To which red5angel replied

Well rubthebuddha?

Read his reply. Altruism and concern for others is not his motive. He has said it many times.

TwoManSaw wrote

The main reason I thought i would reply to this thread is that I was wondering whether r5a would like it if we were all carbon copies of him. Whereby all W.C practioners came from the same lineage and performed and thought about W.C like he does.


Only if his teacher gets the tuition. He is a loyal boy.

[yenhoi]

You guys waste too much time on red5. But at least you keep his threads at the top of the list so that I dont have to go looking for them.

[kj]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
no beginner has a clue if they're as precise as they can be. as you progress, you begin to understand your imprecisions and remove them the same as you'd peel a layer off an onion.

Even the very advanced understand that there are yet more improvements to be made.


so no, i'm not as precise, nor will i claim to be. and i don't know anyone on the WC forum who has any business claiming as such outside of joy, kathy, david, rene and a couple others who have business making such a claim.

I won't make a claim like that either. I know where I am aiming, and am confident in what I need to do in working toward that end. That's as bold a claim as I'm willing to make.


what i DO believe is that you have a good idea talking about training FOR precision and training WITH precision. they are different, and they are both equally important. i just disagree with prodding rhetorically at people and their training with the intent to annoy them.

I remember about an old proverb describing two approaches for climbing a mountain. One way is to reach a hand down and pull others up along with you. If they happen to exceed you, they can do likewise; each helping the others, working as a team to conquer the mountain and assisting each other toward excellence. The other approach is to kick heads, stomp fingers, and yank on those around you in an effort to be ahead.

Everyone has a free choice how to play.

An apropos albeit tangential article: "Infusing Positive Spirit Enriches Relationships" (http://www.johnalston.com/newsletters/ezine/02-08a_news3.html). One of my favorite quotes from John Alston (author of the article) ... "Everyone has freedom of choice, but never freedom from consquences."

Back to the day. Train well; most of us need the work. ;):)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[rubthebuddha]

kathy -- i like the proverb. how about one of my favus? it's an old jewish one, from what i can remember.

a man passes away, and before he is sent to his final destination, he asks if he can see both heaven and hell. his guide shows him two rooms. the first is filled with miserable, emaciated people. they are all sitting around a large pot with the most delightful-smelling stew the world has ever known. the man wonders why all the people are sickly and unhappy, then he notices -- they all have spoons to eat the broth, but they are too long and no matter how far they stretch their arms out, they cannot get the spoons into their mouths. the visitor concludes this, indeed, must be hell.

the guide then takes the man to another room, which is a near match for the first. many people are sitting around a large pot of a dilectable stew, each with the same long spoons. but these people are obviously well fed, and are joking and laughing and enjoying the company of the others. they seem more content than possible.

and then the visitor realizes the difference -- the happy ones have learned to feed each other.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by reneritchie
2.3

Your posts might move from trolling to valuable contributions if you make even subtle attempts at 'tone' change. EG:

Instead of: "Are you practicing and training with enough precision? Are you sure?"

How about: "How do we make sure we practice and train with enough precision?"

RR

Rene the language guy. :)

[Grendel]

Originally posted by red5angel
Wing Chun is efficient and direct. To be efficient and direct you need to be precise. Precise in body structure, joints and bones aligned correctly at all times. Precise in striking, don't waste energy on flowery motions, go straight to the point you choose to strike. Precision in training, if you train to be 100% precise then when you fight, and that precision starts to degrade, it only degrades a little under the pressure instead of a lot. Precision in forward intent and pressure matching, if you are giving too much it can be taken, if you are giving too little, it can be broken.
Are you practicing and training with enough precision? Are you sure?

First, I'd like Kathy Jo to explain the difference between precision and accuracy. :D

Next, Good Wing Chun should be efficient and direct and precise, founded on the principles of good position, structure, timing, and as you also point out, precision in pressure matching. If one's Wing Chun is lacking any of these elements, then there is room for improvement. (As KJ points out, there is always room for improvement.)

I think we work on these elements of Wing Chun in practice of the sets, especially Sil Lim Tao, and such drills as don chi (one handed chi sao exercise), poon sau, and chi sao with good partners who are working noncompetitively together. Wooden dummy practice can greatly improve one's precison.

Good points, even though you have offended us language mavens' sensibilities. :) Rene is right in his comments, BTW. It would have been a better conversation starter if the final question didn't come off as arrogant.

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by Grendel


Rene the language guy. :)

of course! he's a quebecer (or is it quebeçoise :confused: ). they gots all sorts of languages up there.

:D

[kj]

rubthebuddha, good one. Thanks. :)


Originally posted by Grendel
First, I'd like Kathy Jo to explain the difference between precision and accuracy. :D

Grendel, all doubt is removed. You are the devil, LOL.

Accuracy and precision each account for somewhat different aspects of deviation or error.

Accuracy is about how closely a desired setpoint/target/goal is hit or achieved. For example, if you set your household thermostat to 68 degrees and the actual temperature controls to 68 degrees, then it is accurate. If, when the setpoint is 68 degrees, it consistently controls to 72 degrees instead, then it is inaccurate.

In contrast, precision is about fineness/granularity/minuteness. For example, a household thermostat that controls to within +/- 1 degree Fahrenheit is more precise than a thermostat which only controls to within +/- 5 degrees.

A household thermostat which controls accurately to 68 degrees, would still not be very precise if the temperature control range is +/- 5 degrees.

OTOH, a thermostat which controls to within +/- 1 degree is much more precise, but if it controls to a temperature of 72 rather than the 68 degree setpoint, then it is inaccurate.

Therefore, accuracy and precision are both important.

I'll leave it to you to explain it to the next person who asks, regardless of venue. And also how it applies to Wing Chun. :p

Regards,
- Kathy Jo