Yip Mans 4 that he taught it all too! [Archive]

yuanfen

10-24-2002, 05:00 PM

Yip Mans 4 that he taught it all too!
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(I wasnt there when Yip Man supposedly gave sifu Lee advice.
And I dont know whether Leung studied long enough with IM to be one of the so called 4. If the Lee report is accurate IM may have been referring to private students in his middle period/zenith of his teaching- not towards the end. (For discussion sake) I have wondered whether KT CHAO was one such student- I have only circumstantial "evidence". Self evident who I think another top student was. I dont know whether Ip Bo Ching was another...the evidence is mixed. All this is just "thoughts"...not even a thesis
and not intended as a slam against anyone .In the end what matters is whether one learns good wing chun froma good enough teacher. Never mind what rank he has in someone's list. Also good teachers can produce bad students and a student can become better than their teacher. Nature of life and education!
Its happened before in many fields))
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Several months ago in some magazine Allan Lee was interviewed. He talked about stating with Lok Yiu and being invited by Yip Man to be a private student. In the article he said that as he was getting ready to come to America Yip Man told him that he(Yip) was to old to really finish showing him the system but that on his return (Allan)he should study with 1 of the 4 private students Yip Man taught everything to.

Allen did not mention the names. I guess that Duncan Leung is one because Allen learned from nad has maintained his relationship with Duncan for a long time.

So for discussion purposes who do you think were the other 3.

Also this leads to another question. Did those learing from Yip Man after this time really learn everything even though they were private students. If Yip man was to old to finish evrything with Allen wouldnt he have been to old to teach those that came later?

Mr. Bao

10-25-2002, 07:54 AM

I am a student of Alan Lee and SiBak Duncan Leung is one of the four private students of the last and late grandmaster Yip Man. Lee Sifu met another private student in hong kong which made it clear this was the first and last time they will meet and see each other. This man is some wealthy hong kong business man which had awesome chi sao ability. It seems that each fours private students each had a speciality and all completed the system. Duncan Leung is known for his power and used of short knives techniques. The other students had nick names which is hard to locate them. It seems that these wealthy and private students
don't care to make themselves public or care about wing chun's growth.

I have meet some of the old students of Hong Kong and to be honest there is nothing like Duncan Leung or Alan Lee out there but that is my opinion. I have also gone to every wing chun school in nyc area and I am happy with what I am learning from Lee sifu. I hope people have a chance to come by the school and speak with Lee Sifu and exchange ideas of wing chun. I am always checking out other wing chun schools and comparing with I am learning and I find something better my teacher told me I could leave with no hard feelings. I don't see that happening but I am trying my best to see what is out there tho.

Bao

Atleastimnotyou

10-25-2002, 08:44 AM

ok, this has been bugging me for awhile, maybe someone can explain it to me.... I thought the word "sifu" came before the name ei. Sifu Lee. so why does everyone use it the other way? ei Lee Sifu?

Grendel

10-25-2002, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
ok, this has been bugging me for awhile, maybe someone can explain it to me.... I thought the word "sifu" came before the name ei. Sifu Lee. so why does everyone use it the other way? ei Lee Sifu?

Chinese language conventions

Regards,

reneritchie

10-25-2002, 09:18 AM

ALMNY- Chinese, like Japanese (and unlike Western convention), places the form of address *after* the name. Mister Lee would be Lee Sin-Sang in Cantonese. Teacher Lee would be Lee sifu in Cantonese. Mrs. Lee and Miss Lee, Lee Tai-Tai and Lee Siujay respectively. Chinese women also customarily keep their maiden name, so if Ms. Chan married Mr. Lee she would be both Lee Tai-Tai (Lee's wife) and Chan Siujay (Ms. Chan). Etc. Etc.

The Rest - What is "it all"? Who says anyone got "it all"? Who says Yip Man or even Wong Wah-Bo or Leung Jan got "it all"? What's the root of this facination?

I hate mentioning names, since everyone always gets p!ssed. So I'm making the rest of this thread for rational, reasonable, non-emotional, adults only. If you have any god-complexes, hero-worship issues, want to fight to the death about any piece of gossip or heresay, think some people's reputations are worth more than others, or otherwise can't stop yourself bickering about the trees when talking about the forest, please stop reading now. Click 'back' and go read one of r5a's threads. This post isn't for you.

Still here? Okay, then remember, that these are *rumors* (same as "so and so got it all" is just a *rumor*.

Its often said in WCK circles, if you add up all the rumors, that no one got "it all". The early students didn't get all the dummy or weapons (some got some parts, others got other parts). It's said the younger "fighters" like H. Cheung, D. Leung, etc. got some body structure points and knife set choreoraphy from Ho Kam-Ming. It's said that Ho Kam-Ming got a lot because he took Yip Man to the hospital and nursed him after he nearly did himself in, but still didn't get a pole set, just the points (others got the pole set but just the knife points). Yip Chun & Yip Ching didn't care for WCK until it was too late and their father moved, then when they caught up to him in HK he was too old/sick and couldn't teach much personally, so they made relationships with Tsui, Leung Ting, and others. And the list goes on and on. There's a story about *everyone*, and each probably has its microscopic bit of truth as much as it has its ton of BS. You can tell that by the amount of people who insist *their* sifu got "it all" but sifu so-and-so certainly did not.

And Yip Man also seemed to be evolving his system throughout his career, changing the number and order of some dummy sets, changing the choreography of the knives a few times, etc. Did you have to learn every variation of every set to get "it all"? Can you realistically hit that moving target? Do you even need to?

Maybe you can flip the logic over and say that many of them did get "it all" in that they got his core of WCK and were able to make it their own, apply it, and teach it to others regardless of sometimes petty arrangements or numbering sequences. Maybe there's a generation of excellent students who, despite their often grandiose self-promotion and often silly infighting and trash talking of each other, have ensured the Yip Man branch of vitality and diversity, and express the core of the art to their students and succeeding generations much as it was expressed to them.

Some people can build a car, can tell you every component and how it works and can fiddle around with it but just drive like Joe Average. Some people don't know a lick of mechanics but can drive like Mario Andretti. And some people just paint cars really nice, or can sell them, or can get promoters to fund them and put stickers all over them. Which has "it all"?

RR
(running, ducking, and covering)

aelward

10-25-2002, 10:44 AM

Only Rene Ritchie could articulate what he said, so beautifully. I have to agree with him. I feel that it didn't matter who learned what or how much from whom, just as long as they knew how to apply it and pass it on.

yuanfen

10-25-2002, 12:01 PM

Hi Rene: Many good points in your post. The important thing is what we learn now and how well it is learned and taught.
Neither one of us were there when Yip Man was ill. But FWIW, IMO IM had taught Ho Kam Ming the knives when he was well enough to walk him through before he quit teaching. Helping take care of Ip man in his final days is a separate context. And what the pole "form" is- can also be a different matter. Of course there all kinds of opinions about most things in wing chun.

Martial Joe

10-25-2002, 12:03 PM

I know Tsui Sheung Tin was his third...hes the man.

jesper

10-25-2002, 12:38 PM

If I am not mistaken, Yip man changed his WC all his life to suit his health, age, experience etc. So how could he have taught all to one single student ?

If my memory serves me, I can think of at least two incident where that became apparent.
First in his SLT where he left out a section, but later reinstated that when WSL confronted him with a problem
Second I was told 7-8 years ago, that WC originaly contained a technic where you go down on one knee to hit at the midtsection (or something similar), but it was left out when Yip got to old to do it properly.

Jim Roselando

10-25-2002, 01:56 PM

Hello,

The dropping knee horse is called Gwai Ma.

Back to lurk mode!

Regards,

yuanfen

10-25-2002, 02:00 PM

jesper sez:First in his SLT where he left out a section, but later reinstated that when WSL confronted him with a problem

((That motion is there in another part of wing chun. Tailor making it for WSL for solving his problem does not mean that Ip Man was changing the form for everyone))

Martial Joe sez:I know Tsui Sheung Tin was his third...hes the man

((Things like this- understandably--In the eye of the beholder))

Mr Bao sez:to be honest there is nothing like Duncan Leung or Alan Lee out there but that is my opinion

((Not an unusual opinion- lots of people feel that way about their particular teacher- dont you think so?))

fa_jing

10-25-2002, 02:19 PM

Rene Ritchie - you said it. Red5Angel, read it and weep. :rolleyes:

reneritchie

10-25-2002, 02:24 PM

Some of Yip Man's early students reportedly learned Kwai Ma. I learned it in SNWCK. It gets harder as you get older (at least it does for me ;)

yuanfen

10-25-2002, 02:30 PM

Rene sez:Maybe there's a generation of excellent students who, despite their often grandiose self-promotion and often silly infighting and trash talking of each other, have ensured the Yip Man branch of vitality and diversity, and express the core of the art to their students and succeeding generations much as it was expressed to them
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(((Probably true- at least I hope so.))

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Fajiing sez:Rene Ritchie - you said it. Red5Angel, read it and weep
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((Weep? Unlikely. He is unlikely to understand the post as well))

reneritchie

10-25-2002, 02:40 PM

Joy - Cheers! & Thanks for not smacking me too hard!

Mr. Bao

10-25-2002, 02:46 PM

Yuanfen:

Duncan Leung is not teacher; he is my sibak, but I think his wing chun is very good and for the other Yip Man's students that visited and gave seminars which I have been too in nyc.

I am making an opinion based on my experience, unless you shared the same experience and have encountered Yip Chun, Moy Yat, Harkwin Cheung, William Cheung, Duncan Leung, Emin (I know he is not a student of Yip Man), and Alan Lee then you can not understand my perception. I have met other wing chun sifus in nyc as well. It is my opinion and nothing more. Whether you respect that is not my concern. I am just offering my thoughts.

Bao

Grendel

10-25-2002, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
jesper sez:First in his SLT where he left out a section, but later reinstated that when WSL confronted him with a problem

((That motion is there in another part of wing chun. Tailor making it for WSL for solving his problem does not mean that Ip Man was changing the form for everyone))

Right. It was already there, but WSL had to have it emphasized for him. Not to knock the much admired (by me) WSL.

Martial Joe sez:I know Tsui Sheung Tin was his third...hes the man

((Things like this- understandably--In the eye of the beholder))

Yay! We're number three! We're number three! I guess some of us have to settle. :) Two and one must be proud, and four's probably rationalizing too.

Mr Bao sez:to be honest there is nothing like Duncan Leung or Alan Lee out there but that is my opinion

((Not an unusual opinion- lots of people feel that way about their particular teacher- dont you think so?))

Perhaps Mr. Bao is right. There are also no exact equals out there for Yip Man's students Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, Tsui Sheung Tin, and Wong Shun Leung, Ho Kam Minh....the list goes on to include second certain second, third, and fourth generation students.

Red5 can read 'em and hold his head high for a change. Rene, if you keep posing, er posting, about the Yip Man lineage, I'm going to start spilling what I know about YKS. :D

Regards,

yuanfen

10-25-2002, 06:39 PM

reneritchie
Senior Member
Joy - Cheers! & Thanks for not smacking me too hard!

((No problem:-))

Grendel sez:Red5 can read 'em and hold his head high for a change.
((Really?))
Rene, if you keep posing, er posting, about the Yip Man lineage, I'm going to start spilling what I know about YKS.

((Oh no. Did I tell you about the time that I heard....nah<g>)))

Mr.Bao sez: It is my opinion and nothing more. Whether you respect that is not my concern. I am just offering my thoughts.

((I took it as your opinion and I have shown no disrespect))

Mr. Bao

10-25-2002, 07:07 PM

Yuan,

No disrepect was personally taken from me. Before I was introduced to Alan Lee via Peter Koo or even Duncan Leung via Lee Sifu, I was studying under Victor Parlati of traditional wing chun in nyc.

I didn't think highly of Parlati, but out of the instructors in nyc. He was the only school doing some physical contact and Grados Sifu was doing plenty of contact but no form practice and Terrence Yip sidu was doing plenty of form and chi but his techniques weren't realistic for me. I even doubted William Cheung's story during my study with Parlati, but I had to practice something in the end. Trust me if I was a student of Parlati now I would not even speak about him as I would with Duncan Leung and Alan Lee. I swear on the life on my whole family. May they die if I am lying now!!!!!! FOR REAL FOR REAL.

So I was in luck when Alan Lee went public. He humbled me from the beginning and make me rethink about wing chun in a new light. Like I said before if you met some of the senior students of Yip Man like I did, then we can talk on an equal foot and exchange what we witnessed. Sounds fair?

Bao

planetwc

10-25-2002, 07:09 PM

Here are the 4 students in question.

Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, Chu Shong Tin, Wong Shun Leung (http://www.wingchun.com/img/FourWCMasters.jpg)

regards,

David

Martial Joe

10-25-2002, 07:49 PM

Grendel I wasnt saying he was the man because he was his third student.

Hes just really good.

yuanfen

10-25-2002, 09:47 PM

Mr. Bao sez:Like I said before if you met some of the senior students of Yip Man like I did, then we can talk on an equal foot and exchange what we witnessed.
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Mr Bao- You are entitled to your perceptions...I have met quite a few people myself. We probably just have different perceptions.
Lets just let it go at that.

Grendel

10-25-2002, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Bao

Trust me if I was a student of Parlati now I would not even speak about him as I would with Duncan Leung and Alan Lee. I swear on the life on my whole family. May they die if I am lying now!!!!!! FOR REAL FOR REAL.

Bao

How old are you? What a sick, ill thought out post. You do no credit to your sifu.

Grendel

10-25-2002, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by planetwc
Here are the 4 students in question.

Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, Chu Shong Tin, Wong Shun Leung (http://www.wingchun.com/img/FourWCMasters.jpg)

regards,

David

Hi David,

Thanks, and what was the occasion of the photo?

Regards,

aelward

10-26-2002, 12:50 AM

The caption has nothing to do with the "four masters," doesn't even mention their names! It is some story about some guy named Wong Yu and his tea-talk with Bruce Lee....

urban tea

10-26-2002, 02:47 AM

I don't know why you guys keep arguing or "researching" about things like this but everyone in hong kong, esp. the staff of the VTAA knows that

1. Lok Yiu
2. Tsui Seung Tin,
3. Leung Sheung,
4. Wong Shun Leung

(no particular order)

were among the elite no matter what " early class" or "late students before his death" kind of b/s.

Miles Teg

10-26-2002, 05:51 AM

Planet WC or Urbon Tea

What does that article in Chinese say?

Miles Teg

10-26-2002, 06:01 AM

Leung Sheng
Lok Yu
Chu Shong Tin
WSL
Ho Kam Ming
Moy Yat
Lo Man Kam
William Cheng
Ling Ting
Duncan Leang
Victor Kan

All these people were supposed to have learnt the knives, but only 4 tell the truth..........................

Nah, I think perhaps the knives is not such a big deal. If you knew everything else well then knowing the knives wouldnt make much difference woud it?
....But I guess there is still the matter of honesty to your students, saying you learnt the knnives from YM when they didnt.

reneritchie

10-26-2002, 06:15 AM

If it turns out there are more than 4 or less than 4, if there are 0 or an infinate amount, will a Star Treky causality loop appear and swallow HK whole?

Hey, maybe the 'sums over history of todai' include every possible combination with the least likely cancelling out and leaving only a fuzzy abstract art shape of possibles.

Sigh. Viva Saturday!

Rene, if you keep posing, er posting, about the Yip Man lineage, I'm going to start spilling what I know about YKS.

He didn't teach so much, so luckily that part is minimized, and Sum Nung is still alive in GZ, so we currently experience less of this kind of nonsense (since people can theoretically hop on a plane and go see how he moves and what he does). In a few generations tho...?:eek:

yuanfen

10-26-2002, 08:35 AM

Miles Teg sez:Nah, I think perhaps the knives is not such a big deal
----------------------------------------------------
Not a big deal. A person can be very effective without knowing the knives.Ip Man was unlikely to give out freebies.But chatting can be fun.

But the complete art where Ip man left it does include the knives.
There is a lot to the details.The devil hides in them.
IMO an embarrassingly bad knife demo is in the HK anniversary
CD.

IM would demo bits and pieces of the weapons... but learning the whole knife form from him was indeed a rare deal.
Wong Shon Leung and Ho Kam Ming were two persons who each learneda knife form directly from IM. And, there are some differences even in their perspectives on the circumstances and the number of key motions.. WSL taught the knives to several people.
Some folks got one of HKM's students to show them HKM's form.

Ego leads people to say sometimes that they learned everything directly from IM, whereas they may have learned from each other. ON THE LONG RUN IT DOES NOT MATTER,. Wing chun is so great IMO---there are lots of goodies in the wing chun cafeteria.
Its upto the next generations to develop their own competence
based on teaching, knowledge and above all right practice and to carry on with this great art. Thats what really matters...
Recently, a wing chun sifu said--- if someone wants to learn
"Classical" wing chun- best to go to "heaven" and ask Ip man or
Leung Jan. Even then- communication may not be perfect and execution individualized!!

Miles Teg

10-26-2002, 08:50 AM

Theres also that guy that RR talked about once Yeng Ye Bo, or something like that. Maybe you could help me out here RR. The one that died quite young who was a first generation student but also had many private lessons with YM and who Chu Shong Tin said was the one that defeated WSL when he first showed up as a young boy. Or maybe when Yip Man spoke of the four that learned the whole system he was referring to the ones that were alive..... anyway you would think that this guy would have learnt it all based on the discription RR gave.

Private students........I dont think having a lot of money and affording these lessons would mean anything, there is no replacement for diligence. I think YM would put his faith in the people who trained the hardest. Anyway well established WC teachers of today can teach you the forms and everything for a lot of money in a short time but most of them will say that it wont mean much.

Im from TST but I think the one person who we can say learned the whole system with no arguement is WSL as he was the longest student and assistent teacher to YM. So that leaves 3 others.

Does anyone know anything about Lok Yu? I know he is in a wheel chair and was dubbed the king of the pole. But is there anything else? Did he leave many students behind?What is the distinguishing features of his WC?

Miles Teg

10-26-2002, 08:56 AM

Yuanfen
No! Theres a better way!
Im am currently working on a time machine that has the ability to take me back to the days when YM was teaching, I will let you know all the details. First I need to learn the Cantonese language and have plastic surgery to look like a chinese fella, but that is just a formality.

planetwc

10-26-2002, 10:43 AM

Yip Bo Ching was one of the guys who delivered the initial smackdown to Wong Shun Leung and thereby convinced him to give up boxing and take up Wing Chun.[

QUOTE]Originally posted by Miles Teg
Theres also that guy that RR talked about once Yeng Ye Bo, or something like that. Maybe you could help me out here RR. The one that died quite young who was a first generation student but also had many private lessons with YM and who Chu Shong Tin said was the one that defeated WSL when he first showed up as a young boy. Or maybe when Yip Man spoke of the four that learned the whole system he was referring to the ones that were alive..... anyway you would think that this guy would have learnt it all based on the discription RR gave.
[/QUOTE]

planetwc

10-26-2002, 10:47 AM

They are standing together at the grave of Yip Man.
There are more photos of this particular occasion.

There are other photos of the early generation, however folks will have to wait to see them at the Foshan museum. :)

regards,

David

Originally posted by Grendel

Hi David,

Thanks, and what was the occasion of the photo?

Regards,

urban tea

10-26-2002, 10:48 AM

Lok Yiu is in a wheel chair? That's news to me. I know that his son teaches the class in HK and Lok Yiu comes in to watch here adn there.

yuanfen

10-26-2002, 01:48 PM

Mile Teg sez:Private students........I dont think having a lot of money and affording these lessons would mean anything, there is no replacement for diligence.
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No necessary conflict between diligence and money.
Yip Man had public classes and private lessons.
Advanced teaching occurred in the latter. Diligence was
a neceassry but not sufficient condition for learning.
After 1950 teaching wing chun for a living became very
important after leaving Foshan.

Tom Kagan

10-26-2002, 04:47 PM

reneritchie,

Some of Yip Man's early students reportedly learned Kwai Ma. I learned it in SNWCK. It gets harder as you get older (at least it does for me

Um, reportedly? Ah, early students? :) You mean this, right? http://www.moyyat.com/images/mfdl.jpg John Cheng and Lee Moy Shan, circa 1974. There is a similar picture of Rolf Clausnitzer and Greco Wong in their book from 1969. Do you mean to say Moy Yat and Wong Shueng Lueng, really learned it from Sam Nung? ;) (just teasing you) :)

Miles Teg,

All these people were supposed to have learnt the knives, but only 4 tell the truth..........................
Nah, I think perhaps the knives is not such a big deal. If you knew everything else well then knowing the knives wouldnt make much difference woud it?
....But I guess there is still the matter of honesty to your students, saying you learnt the knnives from YM when they didnt.
Moy Yat did not claim to have learned the knives from Yip Man. He said Yip Man started him on the knives - sifu always chose his words carefully. :p

Anyway, I agree with you assesment regarding the knives (So do some of the elders mentioned in this thread, by the way). On Fathers Day, 1999, I was with Moy Yat in his backyard where I learned the "secret" of the knives. Sifu said to me (and I quote): "F#ck the form. Just stick the g@dd@mn things in your hands and practice what you already know. You do that and practice hard you know the knives better than anyone knows a f#cking form. You want to know a form? I got a tape. Me and my SiHings f@cking around with knives. Four forms. You pick." he then started laughing and added: "And try not to kill yourself. Who the h#ll else is gonna come visit me on fathers day?"

Since there seems to be some confusion on your part, The first generation Hong Kong students are (arguably) as follows: Leung Shuen, Lok Yu, Jiu Wan, Man Sui Hung, Yip Po Ching, Chau Kwan Tin, Lee Man.

Shortly after them are: Lee Wing, Lo Ping, Tsui Shang Tin, Lee Nyan Foon, Lo Tai, Ser Me King, Wong Shueng Leung, Lee Chiu (and, I'm sure, a few other more or less unknowns I can't remember offhand).

Those two groups are what I would consider the 1st generation in Hong Kong. They bickered and argued, no question. But their group had a rare dynamic which inspired them ALL to attain the highest levels possible.

Jiu Wan is #3, at least as he defined his position in the family. His peers always bickered about that, though. Frankly, Jiu Wan's insistence as "#3 student" is kind of odd because he, without question from any of his peers, was the first official Sifu from Yip Man's students. Yet, Jiu Wan never looked at it that way. :confused: To each his own.

aelward

10-26-2002, 05:00 PM

Tom Kagan writes:
> Jiu Wan is #3, at least as he defined his position in the family.
> His peers always bickered about that, though. Frankly, Jiu
> Wan's insistence as "#3 student" is kind of odd because he,
> without question from any of his peers, was the first official Sifu
> from Yip Man's students.

Funny, at least one student of Jiu Wan, Francis Fong (and maybe Jason Lau, too) maintains that their lineage does not come from Yip Man, though it is influenced by him...

One thing is for sure, from what I have seen from students of Jason Lau and Francis Fong, they do have interesting differences from many of the Yip Man lineage teachers in terms of use of knees, footwork, and qin na.

10-26-2002, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by aelward
One thing is for sure, from what I have seen from students of Jason Lau and Francis Fong, they do have interesting differences from many of the Yip Man lineage teachers in terms of use of knees, footwork, and qin na.

FWIW. Having had some limited exposure to Francis Fong and his teaching, and some of his students who also teach, I would agree with this observation. Nice guy with a great attitude too, BTW.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

vingtsunstudent

10-26-2002, 07:14 PM

there were definitely alot more than 4 who learnt the knife and pole form from yip man but does that actually mean they meant or understood how to use them.
i think the whole 4 thing has to do with yip man's complete transmission of the whole thing(knowing an understanding the movements, forms and usages, how to make them work for you and how to pass this knowledge on) and not just who he taught the movements to.
instead of having our heads up our a$$es about things like this why don't we all take the time to think that some things in wing chun can only be understood if you have had to actually use them enough to get the underlying ideas. how many of all these sifu that you speak of went out and fought and discovered exactly how $hit went down and thus fully understood what they were doing, i think this could be esp. true when talking of the weapons.(this may include having to have fought and not actually used the weapon but having had to improvise with something so thus giving them the understanding of it)
do i know who the 4 or 5 or whatever that are supposedly the ones who got and fully understood it all, no.
do i care, not really. and why, because i am atleast safe in the fact that i know that both my sifu and his both tested there wing chun and can offer advice on what will really work and help me to understand how to make it work for me.
if you feel safe that sifu is doing the same for you then i can't see why you are all trying to justify that you are part of a lineage that has it all, whether it be through yours or his sifu.
if you feel safe, then act that way, but i can tell you this, there are alot on this thread that are looking and sounding very nervous trying to justify things.
vts

Mr. Bao

10-26-2002, 08:11 PM

Grendal:

I am sorry that you thought my post was sick. I meant it to be honest and trust me I don't wish my family any ill will. Since I love them and they are the most valued thing in my life, I place them as an example of my honesty concerning how Yuan stated just because you study under someone means you are influenced in believing they are greatest.

I studied under Parlati and by no mean if I was his student now I would have place him so high like I did with Duncan Leung or Alan Lee. I was already explained this in my past post. If you think I lack moral character and brought shame to my sifu from my post then you can email him yourself and explain my why my post was sick and ill.

To honest you don't know me and do not know what kind of person I am and what kind of student I am. But that is ok because why should you? Before I left Parlati to join Alan Lee, I went to meet Parlati face to face before class and started to explain why I was leaving his "traditional wing chun" to go study with Alan Lee (modified wing chun in his mind). To tell you the truth he was unhappy, mad, and acted very unprofessional towards me. I gave him face and he didn't respect that but so be it. I do wish him well and hope but will never be on good terms with him it seems. I do not judge traditional wing chun on his behavior but my experience at William Cheung's seminars.

It is all I have to say.

Bao
www.wingchunnyc.com

cha kuen

10-26-2002, 08:32 PM

Interesting posts. What does it matter who were the original students? Can't you guys tell by touching or watching who's actually good?

yuanfen

10-26-2002, 09:32 PM

Cha Kuen---Wing chun folks---er- like to "discuss"...almost anything about the art. Knowing competence by touching or seeing? You have to know something to understand what you touched or saw IMO.

cha kuen

10-26-2002, 10:52 PM

Yuanfan,

I said that because many people want to know who really studied under Yip Man and who really learned it all and such. Why do they want to know? Because they want to see who is good, who is the best.

So let's say John Doe did learn from Yip Man. So what? Does that mean that he is skilled? Go take a look at your kung fu school. All the students in your school ARE learning from your teacher but how many of them are skilled?

Let's say Tat Mau Wong is the greatest choy lay fut guy today. He has a million students. Later his students pass away and only 2 remain. Everyone would think that these 2 were GODS in the CLF world but they are not. What if these 2 surviving students were the laziest ones in the class? That's my point that it doesn't really matter who learend from who as long as he's good.

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John D

10-27-2002, 12:59 AM

Sadly, the question of who knew what and who does what stems from the closed door (isolated) teaching methods of YM. It is time for the old timers to get together for a HUGE sharing and comparing session to work out an acceptable broadswords method.

It is my belief the the late YM showed several variations (all similar) of the broadswords to WSL, HKM, and Yip Bo Ching. Of these three men, only WSL and HKM stayed with Yip Man the longest...some 17-18 years. IMO....WSL and HKM had best (most complete) ideas and concepts of YM's broadsword knowledge.

It would be nice if these two broadsword sets/methods would come public for the whole family to work-on together. I estimated that if somebody combined the HKM and the WSl methods together there would be approx. 15 sections of the eight chop broadswords.

[[[[It is time to share and compare......]]]]]

That is my two cents.......

PS. Joy C., lets work on this idea together for everybody!!!!!

Miles Teg

10-27-2002, 06:26 AM

John D Says:
{It is my belief the the late YM showed several variations (all similar) of the broadswords to WSL, HKM, and Yip Bo Ching. Of these three men, only WSL and HKM stayed with Yip Man the longest...some 17-18 years. IMO....WSL and HKM had best (most complete) ideas and concepts of YM's broadsword knowledge. }

But how do you know what the best/most complete ideas and concepts are?

reneritchie

10-27-2002, 06:34 AM

Hey Tom,

Um, reportedly? Ah, early students?

Um... Yes.. Ah... yes. Some early students (1950) reportedly learned some San Sik (Loose Sets) from Yip Man when he first started teaching, while he was still hesitant to teach more of the sets proper (Chum Kiu, etc.) and was still relatively young and healthy.

You mean this, right? http://www.moyyat.com/images/mfdl.jpg

Cool and a little special. My sibak once asked my sigung if that particular technique really worked and my sigung replied he'd seen Yip Man use it in a fight.

Do you mean to say Moy Yat and Wong Shueng Lueng, really learned it from Sam Nung?

Wong Shun-Leung was early enough. By the 60s, however, there was a lot of other WCK in HK so who knows where some folks picked up their stuff. ;) (Just teasing back ;) )

"F#ck the form. Just stick the g@dd@mn things in your hands and practice what you already know. You do that and practice hard you know the knives better than anyone knows a f#cking form. You want to know a form? I got a tape. Me and my SiHings f@cking around with knives. Four forms. You pick." he then started laughing and added: "And try not to kill yourself. Who the h#ll else is gonna come visit me on fathers day?"

All jokes aside, there is *profound* wisdom in that.

Jiu Wan is #3, at least as he defined his position in the family. His peers always bickered about that, though. Frankly, Jiu Wan's insistence as "#3 student" is kind of odd because he, without question from any of his peers, was the first official Sifu from Yip Man's students. Yet, Jiu Wan never looked at it that way. To each his own.

Many of his students seem to insist now he never learned from Yip Man at all. La plus que ca change...

One thing is for sure, from what I have seen from students of Jason Lau and Francis Fong, they do have interesting differences from many of the Yip Man lineage teachers in terms of use of knees, footwork, and qin na

In China, it's said he learned from his uncle, Jiu Chao (Pan Nam's sifu and Yip Man's colleague on the police force), and maybe from his uncle's sifu, Chan Yiu-Min (Yip Man's sihing) before moving to HK. I've seen 3 or 4 different lines from Jiu Wan and they all looked quite different from each other as well.

RR

yuanfen

10-27-2002, 03:17 PM

We should.

diego

10-27-2002, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by reneritchie

Cool and a little special. My sibak once asked my sigung if that particular technique really worked and my sigung replied he'd seen Yip Man use it in a fight.

RR

Hello Rene. How does this move work?. I have seen this in a few kungfu styles, and the stance Moy Yat is in, in this pic, is the main on-gaurd stance, in the HopGar i do. Like how Traditional Wing Chun, does the Side-Facing On-Gaurd Stance, while standing upright; We bend the knee to gaurd the groin, and raise the heel!.
How does this application work agianst a sweep, as shown?.
:)

yuanfen

10-27-2002, 07:30 PM

But how do you know what the best/most complete ideas and concepts are?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
By comparing in depth various knife usages- against deep wing chun principles and informed opinion on applications. If you see the WSL knives and the HKM knives informed oponion should show the depth of footwork, two hands working together etc and no flipping knives around and trying to do showy stuff.

Wingman

10-27-2002, 08:40 PM

You mean this, right? http://www.moyyat.com/images/mfdl.jpg

I'm not so familiar with Chinese terms, so forgive my ignorance. I have a couple of questions:
Is this technique called Kwai Ma? Does Kwai Ma mean "Kneeling Horse"?

Originally posted by diego

Hello Rene. How does this move work?. I have seen this in a few kungfu styles, and the stance Moy Yat is in, in this pic, is the main on-gaurd stance, in the HopGar i do. Like how Traditional Wing Chun, does the Side-Facing On-Gaurd Stance, while standing upright; We bend the knee to gaurd the groin, and raise the heel!.
How does this application work agianst a sweep, as shown?.
:)

Hi diego,
We do a similar technique as shown in the picture. That's why I was asking if it is called "kneeling horse". We use the kneeling horse to move away from the opponent's "line of fire". For example, the opponent executes a front kick to your abdomen. You can execute a kneeling horse coupled with a gan sao. Then you can execute a cutting step on the opponent's centerline and attack him.

I don't know how this technique will work against a sweep. It would be interesting what reneritchie has to say.
:)

John D

10-27-2002, 10:18 PM

There are some similiar practices between HKM and WSL broadsword methods. The first two are...

1) "NEVER" flip the blades onto your forearms.....though everybody does this in their off beat 'rest" moments to kill time, this techniques does not exsit in either the WSL method and what little I have seen in the HKM method.

2) "NEVER" move the guan do inside your other arm....no matter how short your make your blade length!

The two men were with YM the longest....this is a fact! Again, Joy C., we need to get together and see if things can't be brought to light for everybody.....

YungChun

10-27-2002, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by Tom Kagan

Moy Yat did not claim to have learned the knives from Yip Man. He said Yip Man started him on the knives - sifu always chose his words carefully. :p

Anyway, I agree with you assesment regarding the knives (So do some of the elders mentioned in this thread, by the way). On Fathers Day, 1999, I was with Moy Yat in his backyard where I learned the "secret" of the knives. Sifu said to me (and I quote): "F#ck the form. Just stick the g@dd@mn things in your hands and practice what you already know. You do that and practice hard you know the knives better than anyone knows a f#cking form. You want to know a form? I got a tape. Me and my SiHings f@cking around with knives. Four forms. You pick." he then started laughing and added: "And try not to kill yourself. Who the h#ll else is gonna come visit me on fathers day?"

I can appreciate Sifu's words here. In any case is there an official Bat Jarm Dao set as taught by the the Moy clan? Also I beleive the Moy clan teaches a complete Pole (Gwan) set as well as 'Chi-Gwan' if so is this also done with the knives?

cha kuen

10-28-2002, 01:22 AM

Chan Yiu Ming was Yip Man's siheng? Was he any good? What happend to him? Did he teach?

Thaks for the info RR.

-cha kuen
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reneritchie

10-28-2002, 08:10 AM

Cha Kuen - Chan Yiu-Min, son of Chan Wah-Shun (Yip Man's sifu) passed on his art to his three sons, Chan Ga-Wing/Sun, Chan Ga-Liem, and Chan Ga-Chai. Chan Ga-Liem passed it on to his sons. They're still in Shunde, Guangdong, China I believe.

Check out:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/systems/systems_chanyiumin.shtml

and

http://www.wengchunsanjoang.com/

Tom Kagan

10-28-2002, 11:36 AM

aelward,

Funny, at least one student of Jiu Wan, Francis Fong (and maybe Jason Lau, too) maintains that their lineage does not come from Yip Man, though it is influenced by him...

I have not spoken to Francis Fong regarding his Sifu. But, if you were him, why would you invite more bickering and baggage to your school? :)

Jiu Wan was very serious about rank and position. To draw distinction, he would, more often than not, address Yip Man as MonSuk because he wanted to draw attention to the fact they both were from the same hometown. However, it worked against him. People would say he was just a nephew and not really a student. Also, he had some exposure to Ving Tsun before finding Yip Man. This also worked against him amongst his hypercompetitive peers.

John D,

Sadly, the question of who knew what and who does what stems from the closed door (isolated) teaching methods of YM.

I do not agree. From what I've seen, it has nothing to do with his teaching method and everything to do with the personalities, the culture and sub-culture, and the era involved. From my perspective, many of his students tried to isolate themselves (call it a lunchroom style "clique" if you want - we are mostly talking about kids aged 14 through 22, after all). Yip Man just taught what he knew to whomever happened to come to class or spend enough time with him.

Actually, as the stories go, a couple of the people I mentioned ganged up and confronted YipMan on one occasion because they were impatient and demanded he teach them certain perceived "advanced" things. (And NO, I won't say who ;) ). This didn't sit too well with YipMan. After this incident, he barely gave them the time of day up until his death. This caused that smaller group to lose face because it forced them to find other ways to learn or quit. They resented this, and that's where a lot of these "confusions" were either purposely or inadvertently started. Too bad. From my point of view, the fact that they still stay loyal to their Sifu to this day says a lot more about them than any youthful transgression they still feel bothers them and feel the need to pick at.

By the way, you misread my list. Wong Shueng Lueng did not "stay with Yip Man the longest." That fact, of course, does not diminish his contributions to Ving Tsun one iota.

reneritchie,

Um... Yes.. Ah... yes. Some early students (1950) reportedly learned some San Sik (Loose Sets) from Yip Man when he first started teaching, while he was still hesitant to teach more of the sets proper (Chum Kiu, etc.) and was still relatively young and healthy.

Um... Ah ... No. ;) All the students throughout SiGung's career learned some San Sik sets. Heck, any Sifu worth their salt from any style could make up probably 10 or so loose sets, as you call them, off the top of their head and recall another nickel or so they did when they were "young" in the system. Some might be more useful or more formal than others, especially with certain groups, though (such as your "first" group. :D ).

Most of these drills, however, get thrown away quickly. That's the only way to find what is better tailored to a student, a Sifu, a situation, or a generation. It's not the Sifu's fault if the student treats his or her art superficially and thinks he or she was the only person to receive some lost form and/or technique. Those students then pass those "secrets" on verbatim because they never properly learned the difference between method and technique/attribute.

cha kuen,

Regarding Chan Yee Min's abilities: In his time, he was Seven States Kwan Champion. The trophy, last I knew, is still in Foshan.

reneritchie

10-28-2002, 11:56 AM

Wingman - Kwai Ma = Kneeling Horse.

John D. - Sum Nung's knives are not flipped either, not brought inside the elbow (on poon tan bong (kwan) or gaun). Though Jim can confirm, I do not believe Gulao knives engage in these practices either.

Um... Ah ... No. All the students throughout SiGung's career learned some San Sik sets.

Um... Ah ... And item from column A does not always negate an item from column B. I'd be surprised if they hadn't, though. ;)

Tom Kagan

10-28-2002, 03:40 PM

Um... Ah ... And item from column A does not always negate an item from column B. I'd be surprised if they hadn't, though.

Oh, c'mon now. As a little boy, I learned an item from column A mandates two items from column B. :)

Sure, "early" doesn't preclude "later." But, you missed my point. It's about your remark of "reportedly."

Do you really mean to say there is not enough conclusive evidence from Yip Man's students (and grandstudents who spent a great deal of time with him) - scores still alive today - and not enough empirical evidence on the nature of teaching as to cast doubt on Yip Man's use of GwaiMa and SanSik?

:confused: :mad:

diego

10-28-2002, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Wingman

Hi diego,
We do a similar technique as shown in the picture. That's why I was asking if it is called "kneeling horse". We use the kneeling horse to move away from the opponent's "line of fire". For example, the opponent executes a front kick to your abdomen. You can execute a kneeling horse coupled with a gan sao. Then you can execute a cutting step on the opponent's centerline and attack him.

I don't know how this technique will work against a sweep. It would be interesting what reneritchie has to say.
:)

Hello Wingman,
We have same usage, as your garn sao vs a front kick.
Sometimes, the bent knee will cross infront of the wieghted leg,... thierfore becoming the wieghted leg!...Then we use the garnsao motion; But, this is more of a attack, then defense, with bagua-like footwork (oppossed to the more defensive application as you described).
Also, So, say your wieght is on your right leg, and you garn with your right "oppossed to what you wrote, with wieght on left, and garn with right...in relation to Moy Yat's Pic!," instead of going with the front kick, with your garn, ie wiping to the side or behind you...we will slice and chop, forward and to the side, so your opponnent, resembles a spinning top...Wheras, with the defensive garn as described, it would make him somewhat lean forward, after the kick touches down.
With this bagua-like, alteration of the move...we seek to make him fall-backwards, basically!...thierby, setting him fully off-balance, for a usually, spinning-stance longfist strike, follow-up!.

Is this description clear?.

Rene, can you tell us, what Moy Yat is doing, when making contact with the sweep-kick?.
please!

Also, I think i have seen, this exact demo performed by Moy Yat, on a Tibetan White Crane site?...but cannot recollect where!.
:cool:

Miles Teg

10-28-2002, 11:26 PM

Yuanfen and John D
I was referring to why you think they are the best or most complete.

In other words how are they better than the knife practices of Leang Sheng, Lo Yiu or Chu Shong Tin styles?

As the knife form is the last thing you learn in each YM lineage then how can you judge who has the most complete ideas with out participating in another lineage until you have learned the knives?

Wingman

10-29-2002, 12:49 AM

Hi diego,

Interesting application. I'd like to experiment with it with a partner. But before that, I have some questions and clarifications.

Sometimes, the bent knee will cross infront of the wieghted leg,... thierfore becoming the wieghted leg!...Then we use the garnsao motion

As in the picture, the weighted leg is the left and the bent knee is the right. When do you do the gan sao? During the kneeling horse or when you "cross infront of the weighted leg"?

When you "cross infront of the weighted leg", what is the direction of your step? forwards at an angle or try to circle behind the opponent?

With this bagua-like, alteration of the move...we seek to make him fall-backwards, basically!...thierby, setting him fully off-balance, for a usually, spinning-stance longfist strike, follow-up!.

With the kneeling horse & gan sao I described, you can also make him fall backwards. After the gan sao, do a tan sao just like in SLT. This would "scoop up" his kicking leg and make him off-balanced because he is standing on one leg only. You can then move forward and strike with your other hand and make him fall backwards.

reneritchie

10-29-2002, 06:45 AM

I've seen 3 versions of (perported) Leung Sheung knives, from 3 different sub lineages, and all were completely different (from Ken Chung's very simple, single section set to one from Paul Lam with inverted flipping (think Sai or Tonfa) and many fancy movements). The former seemed to contain the core motions, but not the elaboration of the latter 8(+) section sets. Since knife forms in China seem to follow the core, simple, pattern as well (those fused with Nam Kuen not withstanding), this could arguably be a great example of classic Yip Man knives.

I've only seen one example of Lok Yiu knives (I think from the German folks) and it included more elaborate use as well. Lok Yiu reportedly ( ;) ) favored the pole to the knives in any event.

Tsui Sheung-Tin's set seemed more choreographed (4 sections, the same number as Wang Kiu, but I don't remember offhand if there were any big sequencing differences) and more varied footwork, but, like Leung Sheung's, seemed to contain the core movements (though the footwork was more diverse.

Both Wong Shung-Leung (though I think I've only seen an 8 section from his lineage) and Ho Kam-Ming have very nicely choreographed sets. Koo Sang and Leung Ting also had very nicely choreographed 8 section sets, though different in sequencing than the former 2, in keeping with the no-flipping, but I think they brought the knife through the elbow when yin/yang changing.

RR

RR

yuanfen

10-29-2002, 08:04 AM

Yuanfen and John D
I was referring to why you think they are the best or most complete
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Judgement call. No point in un-necessary argumentation.
The wing chun world is touchy enough. I have no problem
with opinions different from mine on this issue.

Wingman

10-29-2002, 10:31 PM

Hi diego,

I experimented with your kneeling horse application last night with a partner. I agree that your application is more offensive because it attacks the opponent's centerline; rather than move away from the opponent's "line of fire" (as in my application). However, I did not quite understand a couple of things you wrote:

"the bent knee will cross infront of the wieghted leg,... thierfore becoming the wieghted leg!"

Could you please elaborate on this one?

williamsremo

10-30-2002, 02:07 PM

Come on guy's....think about it!

Siu Yuk Men, Leung Sheung, Lok Yu, Wong Sheung Leung, Yip Bo Ching, Tsiu Sheung Tien, Victor Kan, Hawking Cheung, Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Yip Chun, Yip Ching, Lo Man Kam, Koo Sang............
and many, many more! Some with Yip Man from the early 50's until Yip's death in 1972. But Duncan Leung is one of only 4 that got it all....and he trained with Yip Man from 1956 - 1959 from the age of 15 - 18 years of age......and he got it all.....when those listed above trained much longer as adults, but didn't get it all!

Who ever made up this story should be writing science fiction!

Tongue_of_Colibob

10-30-2002, 07:05 PM

Ip Man was very fond of opium. Opium costs money.

He often tought "prescription sets" of the double sword and pole techniques simply to keep a students interest to keep the cash flowing in.

To my knowledge, Ip Bo Ching and Wong Sheung Leung are two of the most likely candidates who learned the entire system.

diego

10-30-2002, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by Wingman
Hi diego,

Interesting application. I'd like to experiment with it with a partner. But before that, I have some questions and clarifications.

As in the picture, the weighted leg is the left and the bent knee is the right. When do you do the gan sao? During the kneeling horse or when you "cross infront of the weighted leg"?

When you "cross infront of the weighted leg", what is the direction of your step? forwards at an angle or try to circle behind the opponent?

With the kneeling horse & gan sao I described, you can also make him fall backwards. After the gan sao, do a tan sao just like in SLT. This would "scoop up" his kicking leg and make him off-balanced because he is standing on one leg only. You can then move forward and strike with your other hand and make him fall backwards.

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/felipe/chicken/chicken02.jpg

So, this is a left kneeling horse, with a right garn sao.

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/felipe/chicken/chicken03.jpg

Here is the transistion move.

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/felipe/chicken/chicken04.jpg

So, now the wieght is on the right leg, and the left knee is bent, and the heel is raised.
His, Right garnsao is defending at his right backside, & is a obvious example of, your guys wing chun reverse-gumsao's,
in your sillimtao, ie...Wiping behind your butt.
Now, His Right foots toe's are facing, directly to 9o'clock, we have them,... directly to 6 or 7o'clock!, ie...Pigeon-Toed!.

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/felipe/chicken/chicken06.jpg

This, is done with his wieght on his left leg!. if this stance was shown on the rightside, then it would be a perfect example,
when to do the garn sao!. In this case, the left hand would wipe behind the left side of your butt!, & it works as soon, as
in this case...The wieght touches down on your left foot!, but for my first post... As soon as you plant your right foot in a pigeontoe... " with your left knee bent or not!," you are in a coiled-one-legged stance; & now you are in a safe position to attack with your garn sao; beneath his thigh or kneecap, etc. Also, it works good, with either a knife hand, a beak hand, or a gumsao heel palm!.
Also works with a backfist!.

reneritchie

10-31-2002, 06:56 AM

Is the many-sectioned knife set an historic one or one that evolved in HK? It's difficult to cross-reference, since Ng Jung-So didn't seem to pass the weapons on to any of his students, and the Chan family seems to do a set more closely resembling Nam Kuen these days. Likewise, Pan Nam does Nam Kuen knives. To jump back to Leung Jan, all we have are Gulao knives, which in name are closer to what's found in YKS/SN, and are not a many-sectioned set.

So, add to that the growing sections (from 4 during Tsui and Wang's time, to 8 or more, to a different 8), and it could be something that was developed, or continually developing in HK. Thus, as mentioned previously, a "moving target" to be considered the "complete" system.

RR

Tom Kagan

10-31-2002, 09:12 AM

So, add to that the growing sections (from 4 during Tsui and Wang's time, to 8 or more, to a different 8), and it could be something that was developed, or continually developing in HK. Thus, as mentioned previously, a "moving target" to be considered the "complete" system.

I suppose it could have been a moving target as you suggest. But, it is also reasonable to suggest that the target remained perfectly stationary while the large majority of students who actually stayed dedicated long enough to complete the system hit the target, perhaps with varying degrees of accuracy. Of course, even some other dedicated students' aim may have fallen short, overshot, or, for reasons known only to them, chosen a different target entirely. ;)

If anyone reading this thread truly has a desire to cross reference it beyond this thread's mere gossip and speculation, I suggest, instead, to talk to the students of Yip Man who remain, comparatively, "under the radar." Some of these students spent close to 20 years with Yip Man yet choose not to teach at all.

Beyond finding the occasional "NaarChut" in this sizable group, it is these students who will likely be an unbiased source regarding who really learned Yip Man's knives. A good person with which to start is Mak Po.

If someone reading this wishes to find Mak Po, he currently resides in San Francisco, California. Mak Po is quite a gracious and warm hearted man, but his English is limited. Nevertheless, I feel I must warn those who still wish to find him he's been known to use another person's body to destroy hotel rooms if that person disrespects any person Mak Po holds dear to his heart.

reneritchie

10-31-2002, 09:39 AM

But, it is also reasonable to suggest that the target remained perfectly stationary while the large majority of students who actually stayed dedicated long enough to complete the system hit the target, perhaps with varying degrees of accuracy.

Sum over history. The only reasonable approach is to factor out the less likely, leaving the more likely as the range within to operate. While continuously greater number of sections could be argued as being continuously greater learning on the part of the students, different arrangements of the same number of sections make such an arguement less likely, and different learning more likely.

Your point on the Ngar Chut's and the less well knowns is well taken. One such student, showing remarkably (and unfortunately very uncommon) grace and candor said he didn't get it all from Yip Man, was profoundly happy for having gotten what he did (anything at all).

RR

hunt1

10-31-2002, 11:13 AM

Renee, have to disagree with your conjecture that the YM knife set grew over time. On the tst web site it says tst didnt learn the knives till 1965/66. A longer set was taught to some in the 50s.

For what its worth I think the knife set may be the best indicator that YM learned from Leung Bik or another LJ student perhaps. I look at the knife set as a 4th hand form with knives. Looked at this way you do see some interesting things. For example have you noticed that in photos WSL positions and William Cheungs positions look the same. I think this also applies to HKM and a few others that utilize the 50/50 footwork. This body usage is utilized throughout the knifes.

reneritchie

10-31-2002, 11:33 AM

Hunter,

That's interesting. But I think the Gulao knives being more similar to the Foshan knives would mean any Leung Bik knives would probably also be similar, and follow the basic body postures, etc. Why some Yip Man knife sets use larger frames is probably for the same reason some Yip Man students use larger frames. More food for thought, tho!

Tom Kagan

10-31-2002, 11:42 AM

While continuously greater number of sections could be argued as being continuously greater learning on the part of the students, different arrangements of the same number of sections make such an arguement less likely, and different learning more likely.

I made no such argument regarding "continuously greater learning." This is why I wrote the second part of my paragraph from which you quoted.

Suppose for a moment a Sifu has only thirty students in his or her lifetime and only four students become well known and/or teach. Additionally, say another Sifu has ten thousand students in his lifetime and one hundred become well known and/or teach. Frankly, I don't see how anyone can claim a specific argument is more or less likely for either Sifu, regardless of the amount of reportedly authentic documents, first-, second-, or third-hand testaments, and/or expert opinion on anything or anyone found within the mix.

Personally, I find a more reasonable approach, as you would suggest finding, in reserving all judgment on the probability of any given argument even if I were the best and least biased historian on the planet in the field of endeavor. It is hard enough to judge the probabilty of an argument postulated within the context of an actual hard science or on an actual historical event. Here, it's even worse: we are studying an art and discussing people. I find more wisdom, i.e. beyond knowledge, when I take these pieces at simple face value without such a judgment.

Which unexplored path do I pick? Very simple: the quickest, the most interesting, and/or the most random one(!) at the moment, from my point of view. When I feel I'm done, I start over. I learn all and I am eager in my search for more (and understanding of what I think I've found). I'm just not an historian. Or, perhaps I really am -- who knows? That's SiuNimTao. :D

Kuen Yao Saam Faht. "The system comes from the heart." -- Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit.
Perhaps a better analogy would be to study the form as if it were a violin. You have to apply the right tension to the strings to make music weep from its sound holes. Apply too little tension and not much sound emanates or the wrong note is played. However, apply too much tension and you could break the instrument. Not too many violin students become a virtuoso.

Still, even a virtuoso's skill may be considered unorthodox in regards to their technical mastery. However, the true test of a virtuoso's playing ability is to take them out of their realm (such as classical) and place them in another (such as jazz) to see whether they can still play their fiddle with a modicum of respectability.

Jim Roselando

10-31-2002, 12:14 PM

Hello,

For what its worth the teaching of Leung Jan in Koo Lo made use of Yee Jee Yum Yeung Dit Ming Dao for its knives and its just some simple moves and not a form I believe. Basically San Sao with the knives. I kind of thought this was the same method of knife play found within YKS's teaching which would make sense since Leung Jan and Fok Bo Chuen both learned from the same source (Wong Wah Bo).

See ya,

reneritchie

10-31-2002, 12:30 PM

Jimbo - Yuen Kay-San and Yuen Jai-Wan learned a set from Fok Bo-Chuen, who was fairly well known for his knife skill.

RR

Jim Roselando

10-31-2002, 12:39 PM

Richster!

Was it a set or was it some simple san sao sets with the knives?

See ya,

reneritchie

10-31-2002, 12:55 PM

A linked set (To Lo/Tao Lu).

RR

diego

10-31-2002, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by diego

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/felipe/chicken/chicken02.jpg

So, this is a left kneeling horse, with a right garn sao.

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/felipe/chicken/chicken03.jpg

Here is the transistion move.

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/felipe/chicken/chicken04.jpg

So, now the wieght is on the right leg, and the left knee is bent, and the heel is raised.
His, Right garnsao is defending at his right backside, & is a obvious example of, your guys wing chun reverse-gumsao's,
in your sillimtao, ie...Wiping behind your butt.
Now, His Right foots toe's are facing, directly to 9o'clock, we have them,... directly to 6 or 7o'clock!, ie...Pigeon-Toed!.

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/felipe/chicken/chicken06.jpg

This, is done with his wieght on his left leg!. if this stance was shown on the rightside, then it would be a perfect example,
when to do the garn sao!. In this case, the left hand would wipe behind the left side of your butt!, & it works as soon, as
in this case...The wieght touches down on your left foot!, but for my first post... As soon as you plant your right foot in a pigeontoe... " with your left knee bent or not!," you are in a coiled-one-legged stance; & now you are in a safe position to attack with your garn sao; beneath his thigh or kneecap, etc. Also, it works good, with either a knife hand, a beak hand, or a gumsao heel palm!.
Also works with a backfist!.

Some, Basic LongFist Strike from The Kneeling-Horse:
So, your opponnent faces you at 12 0'clock, & then executes a right front kick:
Step with your left, directly to 9 or 10 o'clock (avoiding the kick) Then, step in with your right foot basically into a pigeon toe stance. Now, if
you were to freeze this motion, you would be in a pigeon-toe, but all the wieght is on the right leg. Here, you can garn sao a kick, with your right, or you can pak sao a right punch with your left, and punch or palm the ribs, by striking under your paksao!. The main feature is, your left knee is coiled thierfore, covering the groin...you can lift the left foot, or bend the left knee, and lift the left heel, for the kneeling horse.
The main feature is the footwork, the best description is, it's like a driveby shooting...you move left, and strike right!.

Now, your guys kneeling horse as shown in the Moy Yat picture, with the knife hands at the centerline, on-guard..
As i mentioned, this is a fundamental stance/posture, in the hopgar i do.
Left kneeling horse, with right hand as the lead, as shown in the moyyat picture:
Bring your left, i think wu sao hand...left knife hand, wich gaurds the ribs, in the pic!. Bring your left hand, directly behind you so it is parrallel with your right knife hand,
Inline at the shoulders!.
With your right, you can: Index and Middle Finger Longfist punch, with a vertical or horizontal fist, to the face, ribs, or groin/bladder area's.
You can do a right overhead, with the index and middle knuckles to the temple, or use the second row of knuckles like a leopards paw, raking down the centerline of the front, or backside of the opponnent, ie bottom of neck to groin, or back of neck to hipbone!.
Backfists, to the temples, face, and groin. Raking claws, ripping from right to leftside of the face, with your lefthand; and following up with right Hook punches
(hook punch, is like a overhead but it moves in a striaght line, like if you were to hold a coffee mug, and take a sip. Now if you were to wipe that mug, in a slapping motion, across someone's face, this is what the action of the hook, or wiping fist in hopga, best resembles!) to the jaw, or temples; Hooks work good agianst the ribs also, if you can get him to hunch over!.
Hammerfists, agianst punches...striking the biceps. hammers to the temples, face, & groin, also to the back of the neck, agian if you can get him to hunch over, these are good.
Elbows, work good to the temples, and in the kneeling stance. I have seen a application were, you like, left pak sao the outside of the right knee, then right horizontal elbow to the inside of the kneecap; from a left kneeling horse... then you step triangle-inbetween his legs, and do another right horizontal elbow to his right hip, and the left does like a paksao, behind his belt or butt area?...seen this on a video, so im not to sure about its detials...looks cool though!.

The footwork, for my hopgars kneeling horse, is pivots side to side, or triangle shuffling footwork. If your in a left kneeling horse, then you lean to the left side, we dont stay in the center...its like a western boxer slipping a punch!. If you were in a left kneeling horse, your right empty leg would step over to 3 o'clock, and the toes would grab the floor, then you would switch to a right kneeling horse by pivoting on your right toes, and centering your wieght ontoo your right foot.
Or from a right kneeling horse, step/hop with your left, two and a half feet forward, and one and a half feet to the left, and then your right follows, and now you are in a left kneeling horse, & this is the shuffle triangle step!...in this step you can do: as the left foot steps in, hit with a left wiping backfist to his left temple, and as the right knee drops and settles into a left kneeling horse...slam a right over head punch agian to his left temple!.
Or you can pivot into a right kneeling horse, and left hammer to his groin or downward backfist works good...now wipe that left backfist to his left temple, and now do the shuffle step with your left, into a left kneeling horse, and slam a right nailing backfist to his left temple.
Or, you can wipe/rake with a left tiger claw, from the leftside of his face, to the bottom of his right chin, while pivoting into a left kneeling horse, and slam a right overhead to his left temple; now with your right fist, form a inverted tiger claw, and grab his groin...now rip up his centerline, groin to neck, and shuffle into a right kneeling horse, and left vertical punch to his solar plexus, hit with the index and middle knuckles.

Now, all these punches, either have the wu sao or knife hand, gaurding at the neck, ribs or groin. Many times, they are done with the rear hand-stretched to the rear, counterbalancing your wieght, so you can put your whole root into your strikes, hence why they are termed Longfists.
We, have many closerange techniques, parrallel to wing chun also.

churn-ging

10-31-2002, 02:20 PM

I have gotta ask, who is Mak Po?

And does he teach in the Bay Area?

If he does, does he have a school?

diego

10-31-2002, 02:50 PM

A Final blow, finishing technique, that would work great after like a chain punch, is shuffle into a left kneeling horse, and slam your right palm to his solar plexus...We actually have a technique that would blend with wing chun, because it starts off in close, as you:
vs a right punch, pivot to a right side cat stance, with all your wieght on your right leg, and use a double palm deflect, left palm to the inside of his forearm, and right palm to his bicep. Now recoil your right palm, and then redirect it to the left side of his face "your left forearm still checks his right punch." Now, bend your left knee, tucking it into your rightleg...then place your wieght onto your left toes. Quickly step "this is like a Half-Step!" your right-foot 6inches to the right, into a right kneeling horse, and left palm to his solar plexus or sternum " your right wu sao, gaurds at your left ribs."
Now shuffle into a left kneeling horse, and right palm to the left side of his face...the two and a half foot forward shuffle, with putting your shoulder into the longpalm will most likely knock him out...unless your olive oil ;) " agian, your left wu sao gaurds at your right ribs!."

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/felipe/chicken/chicken07.jpg

This is the Twist-Stance. This or a front kneeling horse is what we would follow up with, after a right back kneeling horse, with a right garn sao, vs a right front kick!.
So, in this instance, we follow up by stepping with your empty wieghted left leg into the opponnent, touching the toes down first, then rotating, first into a left side horse, then into a either left twist stance, or a left front kneeling horse stance.

Examples of handstrike, followups: http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/ten_elements.htm

Left Hand, would smack the groin, with a inverted-palm, in a left-side
horse stance...& then it would rip-up the torso, and you would end up in a Left Twist-Stance;
& if you were to rip-up the centerline, with a tiger claw... you could use a right uppercut to the groin, or bladder: http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choy_lay_fut/ten_elements/10el_jong.jpg

Or, from the left side horse stance, Wipe with your tiger claw, or palm-- Counter-Clockwise, from beneath his leftchin,
up & over to his right temple!: http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choy_lay_fut/ten_elements/10el_na.jpg "So, your opponnent is in this right stance, and he does a right kick. you do the step and garnsao attack, then your left snakes into your opponnent, forming into a leftside horse. In this pic, he is in a right side horse, and opp is in a right stance. Also he is doing a shooting arm bridge, with his right. If he was in a left side horse, with his left hooked around the back of the opponnent's right ankle, and if his left arm was wrapping counterclockwise, instead of his right wrapping clockwise, then this picture would show exactly what im talking about. Also, you can rake the face, or grab the shirt!, its just done with a invertedhand grabbing motion!."

Now you can use a Right Wiping-Hammerfist: http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choy_lay_fut/sam06sm.jpg
this is almost what im talking about, except you would end inline with your jaw or neck and not your gut!.

wiping from the left to right side of his face.
Or use a right inverted backfist:
http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choy_lay_fut/ten_elements/10el_sau.jpg
to the left side of his head...You can use these, all while Entering, a Left Twist Stance.

http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choy_lay_fut/ten_elements/10el_gwa.jpg
this is the nailing backfist

http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choy_lay_fut/ten_elements/10el_biu.jpg
this is the wiping backfist

http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choy_lay_fut/ten_elements/10el_kup.jpg
this is the Hook/Wipe Fist

http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choy_lay_fut/ten_elements/10el_ding.jpg

this is the second elbow i mentioned, your leftchecks at the back, and your right hits the right hip, and not the gut as shown...this move is a takedown.

http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choylayfut_concepts_image.jpg

this is that wiping hook punch to the ribs