Are you ready to fight?

[hunt1]

use of WC in a fight seems to be a common undercurrent on the forum. So I have a little test to see if you understand how to use WC.

There have been several studies done by various law enforcement groups that have all come to the same conclusion.
Almost 90% of all altercations start with a sucker punch. Hence if you can defend against one you can save your bacon more often than not. Here is the test.


Start with just on partner than expand to 4. have person stand 2.5 to 3 feet away from you. Yes one arms length or less. He throws a full speed full power punch at your head without any advance warning. Use protective gear and use someone that can pull their punch. You will either not get hit,get hit but not with full power or get smacked. No cheating the distance.

[red5angel]

While thats well and good hunt1 avoiding a sucker punch is about 90% staying out of range and being weary. If you want to do some real training for that then learn to be attentive to those you talk to, pay attention to the distance you are from them and their body language.

[hunt1]

You are kinda single minded and dense arent you Red.
T he whole point is that it is a sucker punch. You dont see it coming. It happens when you are drunk,your guard is down etc.

Since 90% of all fights start with this if you cant handle it you will be spending lots on dental work. If your WC doesnt prepare you to face what in 9 out of 10 times what you will confront then your WC is worthless and you should take up knitting. The whole point of a Martial Art is to provide you with the means to protect you and yours when necessary. If you ever have to use your WC in real life the odds are 90% it will be in this exact situation.

And there is no doubt that you will get smacked if you try this little test.

[red5angel]

An being drunk makes doing wingchun easier anyway? hunt1 without getting insulting, why dont you just think about it for a second before you talk to me about being dense. How many times are you in a situation you DONT know there is the posibility it could get violent? Law enforcement personel always treat their encounters as potentially hostile and the first rule is awareness. I cant imagine it would hurt to train what you were saying but that isnt the end all to be all by any means.
Thats the key in self defense, and I am getting sick of seeing these karate/self defense programs come out where you get to go for a few weeks one hour a week and walk away with a few close combat tricks they cant really pull off. If some guys 3 feet away from me I would hope my wingchun skill can help me regardless. If I am in a situation where I think there is apotential for violence like 99.9% of those situations those agencies you quoted are talking about, I am not going to allow someone to get into a position to sucker punch me.

"If your WC doesnt prepare you to face what in 9 out of 10 times what you will confront then your WC is worthless and you should take up knitting"

I absolutely agree, but I will take it ****her and say 10 out of 10 ;)

[teazer]

In this case, perhaps not as dense as you think.
An effective solution is to minimize positions where someone is able to throw one at you unadvertized.
I agree, it's certainly good to get effective counters & reflexes down vs an unexpected attack.
With that said, you need to put the studies you allude to in context. I imagine it is quite rare for someone to just come up and hit you from behind or the side without a bit of shouting & pushing first. My guess is 5/10 are someone shouting in your face, up close. A bit of a shove, then wham. 2/10 are you having a discussion with someone in front of you & his mate smacks you unexpectedly from the side.
Keeping a little distance, not focussing just on the talker will take some stress off those hair trigger responses you're trying for.

[anerlich]

So 9/10 fights start with a sucker punch, 90% of all real fights go to the ground, 5/10 in your face up close, 2/10 double team with an attack from the side.

Lies, **** lies and statistics.

That said, hunt1 is correct.

Look at www.geoffthompson.com for some INFORMED comment on the issue.

[OdderMensch]

I'll test it tonight if possible.

is ok to hit first? :D


a technical question on the test, has the other guy got his hands up? boxing gaurd, right cross to the jaw? or a from the hip shot? i'd think the sucker punch would come from the hip. I'll try both.

[planetwc]

Anybody ready to handle a big boy like this guy?

Beat Down MMA-NHB style (http://www.mcdojo.net/videos/sapp.mpg)

Will you tan da? Pak Da?
Or Run like HeLl da?:D

[vingtsunstudent]

hunt1
don't know if you've expanded on that and tried this but this is one we used to do that is not to disimilar.
same range but your opponents hand are held beside the face(much like a thai boxer) and with either hand they try and touch you with a light slap to your face(they should have some control and not just all out ***** slap you), your hands on the other hand are held down at your sides, by the waist.
they can use either hand and for most the pace will have to be slowed a little at first, there are a few things that this drill will teach that should know but generally think about but don't use, i ussually explained it to people that there are a few tricks to doing this and once they could they would soon see that they are not tricks just basic wing chun rules that they were forgeting to actually apply.
when i was younger and training often i used to be able to stop 8 or 9 out of 10 at full speed.
for those who actually try this and find they can't seem to stop many and wonder why, all you have to do is come back and ask and i'll even share my little secrets with ya.;)
vts

[hunt1]

vts-nice variation. the more looks the better.


Odder- always best to hit first i think.For Wc to work bestmoving on intent is best. so no punching until you feel his intent to punch you. You will be surprised or you may already know how many times you will hit hi just before he was going to hit you.

on the technical side try without hands up first hands up takes away the sucker aspect. with that said when you try 3 or 4 arround you hands can be anywhere. The more variation the better.

Planet-a big bad boy.there are some people that are just tough mean mothers and they will walk through most anyone. However this guy outside a ring isnt one of them. In a ring a hard man to beat but very beatable if you stay calm and do your stuff. He has lots of holes and since I doubt they are often exploited if you exploit them and can take the initial pain he will drop. Hole 1 very open center line through out.

[planetwc]

Hunt1,

Yes he has a lot of holes right now. He has really just started training to learn to fight professionally. Prior to this he was in the NFL and then WCW wrestling apparently. He is now training with some very experienced fighters in preparation for K-1.

He is about 6'3" and 350LBS.

Yikes.

[hunt1]

teazer and red _ you both make points but I dont think you have ever been in these types of situations. you are trying to apply logic to an illogical situation. Sucker punches or cheap shots are such because they tend to come after one party thinks the situation has toned down. They are by definition a surprise. Situational awarness is always important but it will give you precious help when a punch, bottle or knife comes at you from 3 feet or less. In fact in my little test you have the advantage of situational awarness. You know the person across from you is going to attack you just dont know when. The street is much harder since you dont even know if yet alone the when.

The point of the test -WC has the answers to this situation built into the system . WC was designed with this type of situation in mind. If your WC is good its not a problem if its not so good you get hit which is a good thing.Then you get to improve your understanding of WC.

[vingtsunstudent]

i don't think many wing chun people have the chance to train professionally(this guy probably spends at least 6-8 hrs a day training and doesn't have to work for a living like most), with this man the other things you have mentioned that he has done put him right up there in athletic terms, the fact that he is huge and probably spent a great amount of time using gear and training in very explosive weights( most football players do) would probably mean that for the most part his explosiveness off the mark would dictate that he would merely only have to run into most people to knock them into another weak.
sad but true, some people are freaks and even with poor technique they are just hard mothers.
all that said and done i think if you fear him or anyone else then you never even have a chance at winning, you never know he might take a good one on the chin and be down for the count. seen it, been it and done it.
size isn't everything(mind you it sure can help)
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

hunt1
well said, this is only a drill and to those that have tried any like yours or mine they will know how hard it is at first(even if you don't look at it as training for being sucker punched the reflex and technique training you get from it is awesome to say the least), and this is even without the fear and addrenaline that can make it even more difficult in real situations.
good awareness is one thing(and it should be trained) but it isn't going to stop something from happening all the time.
i'd say if you can stop 9 out of 10 with this drill you have a 7 out of 10 chance in the real world.
just my opinion but having been in just a couple of altercations through the years, you soon learn that it never seems to go quite like it did at the kwoon, sometimes it does and when that happens that yourself lucky and go back and train even harder.
vts

[vt108]

"for those who actually try this and find they can't seem to stop many and wonder why, all you have to do is come back and ask and i'll even share my little secrets with ya"

Well vts. I'm waiting for your help. I'm wondering what technique you use to stop this. For me it is Bong Sau or duck a head and Pak Sau.

vt108

[Ludeviews]

In this case I think Red is right, surely its better to keep up your awareness so that you aren't suckered punched.....

Geoff Thompson says that you shouldn't let your awareness drop so that you can be blindsided or sucker punched.

Not saying the drill doesn't have it uses but if you are aware and put up your fence, ain't no sucker punch getting through.....

[teazer]

Lies, **** lies and statistics.
That said, hunt1 is correct.
Look at www.geoffthompson.com for some INFORMED comment on the issue.

With that said, it'd be nice to see a link to the original statistics quoted. On close reading of a study it often makes sense but the results are used to draw erroneous conclusions.
I agreed with hunt1, that doesn't mean red5 was incorrect though.
Seen it. It's nice.

[yenhoi]

Useful drill. Its also cool to get your friends and buddys and coworkers to attack you at random.

Be careful not to confuse fighting with self defense. They are not the same thing. The best thing to stop a sucker punch is to not be in a situation where a sucker punch is even a probability.

Talk to Ryu about sucker punches.

[Wilson]

What's so wrong about doing both. Sure, we'd all like to think that our awareness is always at 100% but just the 1 time its not is when you get "sucker" punched. In training, I never want my partner to get into a rhythm where I know the punch is coming and just go thru the motions. This is a huge problem I see at most places I've trained. I also try to mimick real situations - talking smack to my partner, acting ****y, moving and rocking back and forth, then maybe look away and come back with a punch. Changing it up every time gives your partner a different look and a better chance to recognize body mechanics in a more real sense.

With all that said, I like Hunt1's drill and I'll try it. It can't make me worse, so I'll take the chance that it will make me better.

As for sucker punches......move, move, move, move!!!! If you see that hand coming, get out of the way and throw something up, then start your attack from there.

[black and blue]

2.5-3.0 ft away.

One of the hardest things is the mental aspect... to be that close and not have a bridge when the first punch is thrown. Everything happens very fast.

I don't think there are really any set rules as to what to do, but I find I look at the top of my opponent's chest to determine where the punch is coming from, and if they punch with their left hand, I try to turn on my left side and issue with my left hand while intercepting their strike with my right (Right Tan Sau / Left punch/palm for example).

Dealing with knees is the hardest thing for me. Very hard to see them coming. Of course, if you've bridged (once the first punch is thrown), you can feel their intention to knee through their bridge.

[vingtsunstudent]

hi Ludeviews
have you ever had to keep your awareness whilst dealing with multiple opponents?
well i have and i can tell you that it ain't as easy as what some might have you believe, i was given a busted zygomatic arch(which required surgury to get the bloody thing back in place)for my attempt to do so one night whilst doing security.
chances are that if you have to then good reflexes as taught in these drills will definitly come in handy.
that said, i will again state that awareness is a big part of it not happening but it won't save you all the time and for those on here who wish to argue that it will, then my response is you have so far -
a) been lucky so far
b) have not yet been in enough situations to talk with authority on the matter
c) you have not been put in that situation at all yet and are just speculating
d) maybe you're Geoff Thompson
to my good friend vt108
definetly try for simultaneous attack and defence fook da and tan da, when making a mistake or not being quite quick enough you can easily turn these into bong or pak to save your a$$, if you are finding that you have time to use your pivoting in any form or footwork with this then it should be odvious that you still have time for more efficiency with your hands.
i like to think of it like this, even though the arms are by the side doesn't mean that they are not in a ready position, the elbows may not be moving but they already have a foward intent that will let them move very quickly to centre, just like a gunfighter in the old west, your all ready for the quick draw.(if your hands are lifeless then that is one more thought your brain actually has to send to the hands to move them before they will do just that but if you already have that intent then you are already half way there - i'm sorry but this is really one of those things that is hard to explain and may need to be shown to fully be understood)
again this may be a bit difficult to explain and even understand without seeing but by bringing the hands straight to the centre your partners strike will almost dictate what you will do, for this you really need to be at a good chi sao level and use the feel.
9 times out of 10 i generally end up with tan da as the hands coming straight up through the centre will almost form a wedge to which your partner, even when throwing a very straight punch, will have to go around the outside.
really all this needs to be shown as i feel my skills of communicating this are probably not doing it justice, also there are so many little things that need to be show and spoken about that just can't be explain in this medium.
i hope i have been able to sort of put this into words and that it may be of some help but if not i'm sorry and hope you aren't even more confused than when i started(because i think i am:confused:)
vts

[Shisio]

I agree with Wilson, Yenhoi, & Red. It sounds like your doing reflex and awarness training for practicality, not the ring. My gripe is many schools have great sport fighters, but like Tito Ortiz, may just get beat on the street. I especially like the idea of a discontent coworker taking a swing at me, I doubt they'd hold back. And even though newbie's make the biggest mistakes, they surprise me more then any BB.

But what are you going to do if your training partner really slugs you? People still get knocked out with headgear on, and how easy is it for someone to throw 100% and still pull back every time? If I'm pulling back then I'm not throwing 100%. I'd worry more that your training might turn into a fight.

I've had Wc save my arse from sucker punches, and then again I've gotten a bat to the back of the head. What was the difference? One time I knew something was coming. So I tip my hat to Red, for the awareness element. But still, no one's going to always be 100% aware, so the reaction training is good. Wc already incorprorates a ton of that though. One of my favorite moves to defend against the sucker punch everybody already knows. Throw your hands up, like an extended boxing shield. It should deflect the punch and cover you (you also can start with your hands down), though moving works better.

If you want to apply Wc to the street, why not pick up JKD?

[Merryprankster]

No offense, but even though his centerline is open, by moving INTO him, you are PLAYING into his hand. This guy's HUGE, he's not going to back up, and unless you REALLY know your stuff on the inside (and I mean how to avoid getting power bombed by somebody who wants to lift you and crush you), then you're going to get mauled. Don't think your punches are going to stop this guy unless you manage to crush his throat--and we all know how likely that is. Kick the knee out? SURE--do you have any idea how stable his legs are with all that muscle mass and his thick joints? You're going to knock him out? Not with that neck and his traps. Be a little realistic here!

Screw holes in his game, this guy would maul me, you and about 99% of the rest of the population in a street fight where numbers and weapons didn't come into play.

If you're lucky, you'll get a chance to run. If you're stupid you'll "exploit his centerline," and get stomped for your trouble.

[Wilson]

MP is right on the money. The main advantage most of us would have against this guy is that we can faster and longer than him. Martial arts is about self-preservation. Running away from this guy is self preservation.

I'm all for positive attitude and killer instinct, but you've got to be realistic. The amount of time this guy has trained for athletic competition and mental toughness would dwarf the amount of time most of us spend training. Pick your battles wisely.

Is he beatable in the ring.....sure, let Rickson give it a shot. In a dark alley.....I'm running.

[vingtsunstudent]

hi merryprankster
if you read what i said before you will know that i am almost in total agreement with you.
like i said for the most part a man this size would only need to run at you and that force would be enough to severely damage most anybody however i have a seen many times that a small man can knock a bigger guy down with but one punch in the right spot, granted it may have to be very very very lucky but still it can happen.
whether it be your luck that he has his mouth open(thus making his jaw all the more vunerable to a good or lucky blow) or luck that he has a glass jaw or luck that he just doesn't have any heart and is just a big man relying on that as intimidation or luck that his mind is somewhere else(we must also remember that in a tournament you know why your there and you going to be very focused however in the street thing can happen very suddenly for almost no reason sometimes and that can be a big difference), hell you may even be lucky enough to be blessed with good technique(dare i say this merryprankster but there probably some wing chun people otu there who could very well bada$$es too you know), i don't think that taking any sort of a negative attitude into a fight, especially if there is no avioding it, is going to stand you in good stead to win let alone survive such an encounter.
just to let you know, if it were me having to face a man like that i would definitely do whatever was humanly possible to get away from him without having to engage, but that said, you must rember that if contact must be made we can all only go with what we know and have faith in ouselves and our system.
all in all what you said is more true than most would probably like to believe.
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

very true and well said wilson.
vts

[Merryprankster]

vts,

Hey, I'm right there with you. And I believe there are some amzing WC guys out there. I'm sure there are! And I would use everything I had to get away from this guy. Exploitation isn't an issue here--staying away from that steamroller of a monster is! :D

I'm more commenting on those who seem to think his "weaknesses" can be "exploited," by a normal sized person.

[Merryprankster]

Actually Wilson, Nogueira beat him by Armbar!! :D

[Wilson]

Good stuff MP.

See everyone, piece of cake! All you have to do is take him down and throw on the ol' arm bar. That's the weakness. ;)

*notice the wink* - sarcasm everyone! I've seen that go unnoticed in many posts on here.

:cool:

[vingtsunstudent]

''I'm more commenting on those who seem to think his "weaknesses" can be "exploited," by a normal sized person''

i do understand and you are absolutely correct, but i think you should have added '' by a normal size person who isn't a freakish fighter or technician'' and/or ''a nomal size person who has the idea of explioting them and has the luck of the gods on their side to help them pull it off against that freak'':D
we both know that without these there will many upset people on here, esp. the ones who think i don't have faith in my beloved ving tsun.
vts

[Grendel]

Originally posted by planetwc
Anybody ready to handle a big boy like this guy?

Beat Down MMA-NHB style (http://www.mcdojo.net/videos/sapp.mpg)

Will you tan da? Pak Da?
Or Run like HeLl da?:D

Of course, he can't condition his brain. But then, he doesn't seem to be using it. I wouldn't go to the ground with someone so big; he's got a few pounds on me, like probably the difference of your weight added to mine. :)

I would look forward, if I met him in a street fight, to defending myself in court afterward for the beating I gave him. :D With my luck, they'd charge me as the aggressor. :(

Regards,

[reneritchie]

Anerlich and MP, as usual, exude correctness.

Planet - When I saw that fight on Dynamite/Shockwave, and Sapp spiked him, I really though Mino was dead. Best heavyweight fight ever, but Mino should *never* fight him again (and rumor has it they're trying to make him fight Sapp again next month...) Give Sapp a few years in AMC, and a half dozen or so more fights, and the mind shudders... He should really be in the Giant division. I cringe when I see him smacking down the tiny Tomato Cans he regularly gets fed. Great training, even BTT or WCK or whatever can only reduce so much deficit. After that, you have to cheat (read: hit with moving vehicule, have tazer handy, etc.)

r5a is also correct in a way, that avoidance is key. Avoidance, however, doesn't take as much training, so even if you're successful in avoiding 90% of situations, you still need to train like heck for the other 10%.

Another point to be made is that some people take WCK for non-Self Defense, non-Fighting reasons (social activity, physical exercise, art for arts sake, etc.) and for them it wouldn't matter.

RR

[Wilson]

btw, what band is playing in that clip. Makes me want to train right now. Bad as s

[Merryprankster]

Grendel is either his namesake, is kidding, or not very bright.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Grendel is either his namesake, is kidding, or not very bright.

Guilty as charged. :) Especially the not very bright part, because I was being partly facetious as you suspected.

BTW, which Grendel am I? The comix Grendel is not to my taste. Mindless monster is more my style.

Regards,

[Merryprankster]

LOL @ Grendel!!!

[rogue]

I may be mistaken but most of you refer to sucker punches as only coming from a squared on position. I've noticed most sucker punches came from behind or from the blind side. Sadly one of the best things to learn in countering a sucker punch is how to take the punch and hopefully recover. Sometimes you're just going to go down no matter what solutions your art has or how many drills you do in class. Not something those selling solutions like to say though, bad for business.

[cobra]

90% of all fights start with some kind of verbal confrontation, in which case you should be on guard and controlling the space between you. If you let him in and get "sucker puched", then you are the sucker. serves you right.

[red5angel]

"r5a is also correct in a way, that avoidance is key. Avoidance, however, doesn't take as much training, so even if you're successful in avoiding 90% of situations, you still need to train like heck for the other 10%."

Agreed, and things like training sensitivity wil get you a long way to being able to handle a surprise attack. Training in the basics always helps.
Heres why I say this, as Rogue points out most "Sucker punches" these law enforcement officers speak of, not including the kind where the cop was too stupid to realize staying back is a good choice, come from behind or from the side. By a friend of the person you are facing, or by the perosn themselves when they play nice and circle around you after you have dropped your guard.
I believe training sensitivity and awareness are what will get you through. You could train to handle all sorts of attacks, specifically, but then how hard wired are these things really? If I train for 3 months on one particular attack and then move on, what happens if that attack never occurs? Or better yet what happens in three months when I have moved on to training other specific attacks?
While training for sport fighting often leads to this sort of training, sport fighting also succumbs to popular techniques and applications. On the street its not always so predictable.

Awareness is still the key here. A Cop friend of mine said it best, only suckers get sucker punched.

[rogue]

"90% of all fights start with some kind of verbal confrontation, in which case you should be on guard and controlling the space between you. If you let him in and get "sucker puched", then you are the sucker. serves you right."

Agreed, but like R5A said you may be sucker punched by his friends. Back in my bar band days I've seen the verbal confrontation happen with one of the guys backing down only to come back and jump the other guy ten minutes later without additional verbal warning. If the guy is not too drunk or too stupid he may try and make the fight happen on his terms. In some bars that hire aggresive bouncers you may have to watch out for them too.

You can't prepare for every situation that will happen in the real world.