Discussion on weight lifting

[Viper555]

One thing that a lot of my friends(my self included)and other people seem to keep researching and asking questions about is weight lifting to complement your martial arts training.I thought that since this question keeps reappearing that we could start a discussion about it on here,about the pros and cons, and what works v.s. what doesn't work.What are your opinions on wieght lifting and it's effectivness as opposed to bodyweight exercises.I personally like doing bodyweight exercises just as much(if not more)as lifting weights.The main reason I like them is because I know that i'm getting results from them.I just started taking Kung Fu where my instructors like to stress physical fitness more so than my instructors did at my old karate school(actually we did no physically exerting exercises in karate).Because of all the exercises that I have been doing(in the kwoon and at home)that I learned from my kung fu class I have gained some strength and am in the best shape i've ever been in but,one thing that I have thought about is this.Bodyweight exercises will help you to get stronger in the beggining but once you get to a certain point you are just working on muscle endurance and not strength.Therefore,if you want to get any stronger you have to incorporate some sort of weight training into it or you will just be standing still in the strength department.Because of this problem I started to do a little powerlifting which has worked out wonderfully.When I first started lifting weights I could barely bench press 120 one time and was shaky afterwards.After doing the powerlifting for about 2 months I could bench press 150 about 4 times.Based on that experience I think that lifting weights is a good idea and can be very helpful(if done right)to a person in the martial arts of any kind.What are some of your experiences with lifting weights?Do you perfere to lift for strength of endurance or do you do both?Do you even think that weight lifting is beneficial?If you don't lift weights,why not?If you do lift weights,why do you?Do you like bodyweight exercises more than lifting weights and why?

For those who are still reading this:I think that if everyone answers these questions we can get rid of a lot of the questions that pop up on these boards about weight lifting and have more knowledge about it ourselves.

Thanks for hanging on throughout this post!!!

Later

Viper

[WinterPalm]

The development of strength, to me, is a segment of martial arts and nothing more. Each piece must be equally considered and pondered leaving nothing untouched. This is about totality and absolute knowledge of ones body and mind.
If getting a big bench press will develop muscular strength so that when need be a punch can be executed with the proper amount of strength at the proper time with little to no overexertion or wasted energy. That is mind, strength would be desired, but, if getting a big bench press can make you have a big chest and that allows you to ascertain some sort of ignorant bragging rights to your chums, then you are a fool and the weight lifting is pointless. Kung fu trains the mind and humbles the ego.
Personally, I enjoy some weights, but mostly bodyweight exercises and above all dedicate your journals, time, energy and deep thoughts towards your kung fu as a totality. Address the segments and you should do fine. :)

[LEGEND]

I only do it for da chicks!!! :)

[Viper555]

"above all dedicate your journals, time, energy and deep thoughts towards your kung fu as a totality. "


Thats a very good idea and one that a lot of people overlook.They get so obsessed with thinking "oh no,that guy is stronger than me,I better lift weights more and practice less so I can take him out if I need to" that they don't spend enough time on perfecting their form and tecniques along with other things.I personally work out for about an hour or a little more and then practice my kung fu for for about the same amount of time(if my homework allows it,**** that math teacher!).I think that you need to have a balance of both to be totally succesful in your training.For example,You lift weights and work out for a long time and then practice your martial art for a couple minutes then you get in a fight and get hit because you didn't practice your technique enough or vice versa,you block the attack but can't hurt the other person because you have no power in your strikes.Therefore,you need both,one without the other will(most of the time)make you loose the fight.Of course,this isn't always true but for the most part it holds up.

cya

Viper

[SevenStar]

proper weight training is definitely beneficial. It can be used to build both strength and muscular endurance, and can mean the difference between a victory and defeat in some situations. even with proper form, strength can resist things. on the same token, that extra strength can enhance your form when you are facing hard resistance.

[Budokan]

Weight training, just like everything else, is a good thing as long as you don't overdo it.

[Viper555]

bump

[ewallace]

I don't know why so many folks seem to think that adding mass and having it show is such a bad thing or only due to ego. Some people just enjoy lifting weights. Others know that if you appear to be in good shape you are less likely to be randomly attacked.

Ever had a siberian husky give you a long hard stare? For most folks its enough to enforce a change of skivvies. For those that know dogs they are virtually harmless. Not that you should be all bark and no bite, but having them both never hurts.

[Ford Prefect]

Good point, Ewallace. You can be a crazy fighting machine, but if you are slight in appearance, you have a better chance of being attacked than somebody who looks strong and musclular by Western standards. In fact, I think in terms of self-defense, being a big strong guy is better than knowing a MA in a lot of cases.

[Viper555]

^^^^ How do you get that being a big strong guy can be better than a person in the MA?

[Jzf_K]

the big guy doesn't have to fight

[ewallace]

Welcome to the forum Jzf_K. Always great to have another Texan on the board. We don't have many. :)

[SevenStar]

Intimidation. I've been in situations where people backed down when the saw muscles flex. I've also had a friend tell me that when we first met, I ticked him off and he wanted to kick my butt, but because of my size he decided it wasn't a good idea. In class, the newbies usually don't wanna spar me because of my size. Intimidation can go a long way.

[omegapoint]

Let's see. If you are a proficient FIGHTER (martial artist and fighter are not necessarily synonymous) with a regular or slight build, then you got it goin' on. You might be apt to have to display those skills if the antagonist isn't intimidated by your physique, though. Then again' you could probably make him wish he picked another mark, once the action starts, so you do have the very integral "element of surprise" on your hands. Still, limiting your chances for confrontation, is the highest level of MAs.

If you are a proficient fighter with good height and respectable bulk (muscles) then you got one up on the previous cat. Plus, the "art of appearance" can often be a deterrent as was previously mentioned. You don't wear your fighting prowess on the outside so sometimes people "generalize or stereotype" fighters as being big, tough and athletic looking. They may pick someone else to squabb' with.

The myth of increasing muscle size=slothness is just ridiculous. Muscles power your body for strength and speed, and done right weightlifting will make you better, faster and stronger. Don't do powerlifting exercise, and stretch while resting between eac set (30 secs. or <).

Right now I would kick my own ass a year ago, and I was no punk then. Working out entails striking the bags, training in 2-man drills (including BJJ groundwork), iron body and most important weightlifting. Others that train with me feel the same way, and have told me so. Weightlifting is not for the lazy who claim that all they need is MAs. Unless you train 8 hrs. a day for years and years like the Gracie's then you need weights. Or don't do it, it ain't no skin off my back....

[Neurotic]

Personally, I do a bit of barbell work at home to supplement my training.

More than anything else, I find doing weights to be an interesting to twist when my daily training can have me feeling a little bored, and running out of ideas.
(There are only so many drills and forms etc. that you can do!!!)

I can't see any reason not to do it, and its something I do enjoy! ;o)

Just my 2c

Neurotic

[IronFist]

omegapoint said:

Muscles power your body for strength and speed, and done right weightlifting will make you better, faster and stronger. Don't do powerlifting exercise, and stretch while resting between eac set (30 secs. or < ).


Wtf? Why did you say don't do powerlifting exercise? PL'ing makes you stronger and faster than any other kind of weightlifting.


IronFist

[Souljah]

I would have thought it just made you stronger but I didnt think it would speed you up, if anything u'd think it would slow you down.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by IronFist
omegapoint said:

Wtf? Why did you say don't do powerlifting exercise? PL'ing makes you stronger and faster than any other kind of weightlifting.


IronFist

Because I'm a doctor and I know better than you. J/K, but what I said makes perfect sense. Every powerlifter I've known did have good speed, ups and such, with power; after all most have an abundance of fast-fatigueable fibers. The common deficit incurred from short, quick muscle contractions is LOSS OF FLEXIBILITY. Flexibility is often overlooked. How strong is a rubber band that is thick and inflexible? Probably pretty strong, but if used to propel something, you may not get good distance. How strong is a wrist-rocket (slingshot) that uses flexible and durable surgical tubing? Your fist and feet are being "propelled" in a similar way when you strike. Maybe a better analogy would be a caveman's "throwing stick". It would be hard for someone with contracted muscles (a powerlifter) to endure the full extension of an arm or leg-bar.

Powerlifting is bad on the back and joints in the long run. It does make one incredibly strong, but it is hard to transmit this strength to endeavors which require flexible, finesse or supple strength. It is a "specialty" and not a training regimen for athletics per se.

Anyway, dowhatchlike, and "WTF" all day. I'm not gonna be worse off for it. Pick up a good book on A and P (Nettter's Illustrated text is awesome), and a good book on biomechanics. I was forced to learn this stuff in school, but it has definitely helped me in MAs, too. You know that many of the "masters" were physicians, right?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Souljah
I would have thought it just made you stronger but I didnt think it would speed you up, if anything u'd think it would slow you down.

Nope. Not unless you are freakishly huge.

[IronFist]

Italic quotes by omegapoint

How strong is a rubber band that is thick and inflexible? Probably pretty strong, but if used to propel something, you may not get good distance. How strong is a wrist-rocket (slingshot) that uses flexible and durable surgical tubing? Your fist and feet are being "propelled" in a similar way when you strike. Maybe a better analogy would be a caveman's "throwing stick". It would be hard for someone with contracted muscles (a powerlifter) to endure the full extension of an arm or leg-bar.

I'm afraid I don't understand your last sentences there. A powerlifter has contracted muscles? Maybe while he's lifting something. Before I comment on this, please clarify what you mean.

Powerlifting is bad on the back and joints in the long run.

Uh... ok there. You pretty much just lost any credibility you may have had with me. What is your justification for saying this? If it is DL'ing or Squating is bad on the back or knees, please don't bother.

It does make one incredibly strong, but it is hard to transmit this strength to endeavors which require flexible, finesse or supple strength. It is a "specialty" and not a training regimen for athletics per se.

I suppose if ALL someone does is powerlifting, then this may be the case. I don't understand where you get your information that powerlifters are inflexible, however. While many strongmen choose not to stretch before a workout to promote muscle tension, that does not mean they neglect stretching all together. Nearly every powerlifter I've ever seen, professional or recreational, is more flexible than most martial artists I know. I will agree, however, that many forms of strictly powerlifting do not lend themselves well to endurance activities...

Anyway, dowhatchlike, and "WTF" all day. I'm not gonna be worse off for it. Pick up a good book on A and P (Nettter's Illustrated text is awesome), and a good book on biomechanics. I was forced to learn this stuff in school, but it has definitely helped me in MAs, too. You know that many of the "masters" were physicians, right?

Yeah. I also know that most books are not very accurate. :) I've read enough of the good ones and talked to enough of the right people to know what I'm talking about, however.

IronFist

[Viper555]

omega:I do powerlifting,endurancelifting,and bodywieght exercises so i'm guessing that(in this case)you wouldn't suggest I stop powerlifting.Powerlifting is a good thing when mixed with others as well.Also,I don't beleive all this crap about loss of flexibility from lifting weights.I'm also pretty sure it wont happen to me see I posses a ancient, secret program passes down from generation to generation by the Shaolin Monks known as "Stretching".


cya

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Viper555
omega:I do powerlifting,endurancelifting,and bodywieght exercises so i'm guessing that(in this case)you wouldn't suggest I stop powerlifting.Powerlifting is a good thing when mixed with others as well.Also,I don't beleive all this crap about loss of flexibility from lifting weights.I'm also pretty sure it wont happen to me see I posses a ancient, secret program passes down from generation to generation by the Shaolin Monks known as "Stretching".


cya

Of course not. If what you do works for you then do it. If your weightlifting program contains all powerlifts then your training may be counter productive. The flexibilty thing and weightlifting is a joke, but a lot of bodybuilders and powerlifters do not stretch. Stretching is a very good secret Shaolin tech, hahaha!

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by IronFist
Italic quotes by omegapoint

I'm afraid I don't understand your last sentences there. A powerlifter has contracted muscles? Maybe while he's lifting something. Before I comment on this, please clarify what you mean.

Have you ever seen a person with contracted muscles? By contracted I mean their ROM (range of motion) is severely decreased due to neglect or heavy powerlifting. I have a powerlifter in my dojo who can't even touch the back of his traps. with his hands to "remove" a two-handed rear strangle.

Uh... ok there. You pretty much just lost any credibility you may have had with me. What is your justification for saying this? If it is DL'ing or Squating is bad on the back or knees, please don't bother.

I don't have to prove anything to you. You can take what I say with a grain of salt, but repetitive deadlifts and 90o squats are bad, very bad for all joints especially the knees and back. Believe what you want, but it's science fact.


I suppose if ALL someone does is powerlifting, then this may be the case. I don't understand where you get your information that powerlifters are inflexible, however. While many strongmen choose not to stretch before a workout to promote muscle tension, that does not mean they neglect stretching all together. Nearly every powerlifter I've ever seen, professional or recreational, is more flexible than most martial artists I know. I will agree, however, that many forms of strictly powerlifting do not lend themselves well to endurance activities...

The guys who add powerlifting to their regimen are no stronger than the guys who do strictly plyometric exercise and regular, moderate weightlifting, at least where I work out. Why do such hard training unless you are getting paid millions (like an NFL player)? No need for a martial artist to train for bodily wear and tear.


Yeah. I also know that most books are not very accurate. :) I've read enough of the good ones and talked to enough of the right people to know what I'm talking about, however.

Don't people write books? The Anatomy and Physiology book I was referring to is used by every Med. School in the nation. I hope it isn't wrong, and since it is straight forward A-n-P, I would doubt seriously that it is. That last statement made you lose all credibility with me. Not that you really had any in the first place. You can only know what exists in your reality. Ask the Muslims, Jews, Christians and Buddhists.

Final Say

[rogue]

OmegaPoint is right. I have a friend who is an Olympic powerlifter and he told me that the flexibility of a martial artist would be dangerous for him. For him it's as much stability as possible.

[Viper555]

So you're saying that regular weight lifting will make you just as strong as powerlifting?

[IronFist]

omegapoint said

Have you ever seen a person with contracted muscles? By contracted I mean their ROM (range of motion) is severely decreased due to neglect or heavy powerlifting. I have a powerlifter in my dojo who can't even touch the back of his traps. with his hands to "remove" a two-handed rear strangle.

That sucks. He must not stretch very much. I've seen people with tight muscles before, but if you're a doctor as you say I don't think you would use "contracted" to describe it, because contracting a muscle is different from a tight muscle with a small ROM.

but repetitive deadlifts and 90o squats are bad, very bad for all joints especially the knees and back. Believe what you want, but it's science fact.

Please prove this fact to me. Sources or something.

The guys who add powerlifting to their regimen are no stronger than the guys who do strictly plyometric exercise and regular, moderate weightlifting, at least where I work out.

You must work out at Bally's or something. Powerlifting will produce muscles that are capable of generating more tension and therefore stronger than the muscles trained by other forms of lifting. So either a) the people at your gym suck, b) are just beginning PL'ing, or c) aren't following a very good program.

Why do such hard training unless you are getting paid millions (like an NFL player)? No need for a martial artist to train for bodily wear and tear.

That's like saying why do martial arts if you're not going to fight in UFC. Powerlifting isn't that hard, per se. It hurts less than bodybuilding and more popular forms of weight lifting.

Don't people write books?

Uh, yeah.

The Anatomy and Physiology book I was referring to is used by every Med. School in the nation. I hope it isn't wrong,

There's lots of book used in schools that contain errors... some history books... what about medicine manuals from the 1800's, would you swear by their accuracy? I'm not questioning the date or the information of the book you mentioned. I'm just saying "because I read it in a book" does not solidify an argument unless you can back it up.

That last statement made you lose all credibility with me.

Oh well.

Not that you really had any in the first place. You can only know what exists in your reality. Ask the Muslims, Jews, Christians and Buddhists.

Wow, you just broke my relevance meter.

Based on what you have to say, your knowledge of weight lifting appears elementary at best. Tell me about how can I work my lower abs by doing hanging leg raises? :rolleyes:

Ok, new person.

Viper555 said

So you're saying that regular weight lifting will make you just as strong as powerlifting?

No. I gaurantee you this is not the case.

Ok, time to elaborate. By "regular weight lifting" I assume you mean something like what most people do at the gym... 4-8 sets of 6-12 reps or whatever. The generally accepted belief is that "people lift weights to get bigger" and as a result, the routines you see most people do are based off of bodybuilding routines (which are generally flawed in the first place).

Anyway, the general routines you read in magazines, or the advice you will get from the average person (or martial artist) in the weight room will not make you as strong as powerlifting.

You get what you train for. If you do not train for maximal strength (which is powerlifting, by definition), you will not achieve maximal strength.

IronFist

[iron thread]

Some of us just can't afford to buy all that equipment. Body weight exercise gives results, and with my scheduling, it keeps me content.

[stoli]

Hmmm, interesting discussion.

This certainly shows the difference between 'book' knowledge and experience !!

As said previously only going to the extremes of muscle mass will limit your flexibility unless you're slack on your stretching or simply don't do effective stretches after your workouts. The problem is that lots of casual weightlifters don't do effective stretches !! They tend to rely on what they see others doing rather than a bit of research, and we all know how bad that can be in a gym !!

As long as you keep stretching then your ROM will not suffer from powerlifting or any form of weight training.

The example of the powerlifter from omegapoint isn't a good one as I'm sure we've all seen novices in the kwoon who are stiff beyond belief and certainly aren't musclebound, just untrained !!

Omegapoint, you also answer your own problem about squats and deadlifts messing with your joints. If you get a good book on body mechanics you can perform squats and deadlifts in a way that is 'natural' for the body, this isn't gonna do damage as long as you stick to good form. The basic rule is, as always, it's not the exercise that damages you it's doing the exercise badly !!

You seem to be an orthopaedic doctor Omegapoint and I'm sure that the people you see who've scr*wed their joints do it when they first start out training or at that point when they get a bit over keen, looking for poundages over technique !! The curse of many in the gym.

Now come on Ironfist, play nicely, we all know that hanging leg raises don't work your lower abs, you need reverse crunches for that !!! :D

Maybe Omegapoint can finally tell you how to work those problem lower pecs !!!

[KnightSabre]

I don't know about this whole power versus regular weight lifting thing.

What I can do is tell you my own experience from the weight lifting I've done.
I'm 6'0, arround 220 (good fat % not too cut ,have a visible pack).

I'm very flexible,flat in the splits,can roll on my back and put my knees next to my head,can put my one arm over my shoulder and link fingers with my other arm behind my back.

With my workout I can bench 375 for 3,
I can standing bar curl 165 for 3,
I can shoulder press 180 for 3. (We've just started shoulder press).

I know thats no where near as strong as powerlifters but I think for my size it's quite strong,being a grappler it certainly helps me alot when my apponent out weighs me,often I find the guy is bigger than me but I'm still stronger.That would never have been possible if it wasn't for the gym program my partner and I follow.The scary thing is we've climbed from benching 242 to 375 in less than a year with the new program.And I haven't lost any flexibility either.

Oh ya,I do stretch at least 3 times a week for about 15 minutes at a time.

[Ford Prefect]

The guys who add powerlifting to their regimen are no stronger than the guys who do strictly plyometric exercise and regular, moderate weightlifting, at least where I work out.

You must work out at Bally's or something...

LOL! That cracked me up.

Anyhoo, powerlifting and such will not make you less flexable or injure your joints. That is scientific fact. Incorrect form while performing these exercises will though.

Incorrect form while benching can stress the shoulder and/or the elbow to the point of damage. Incorrect form while squatting can stress the knees, hips, and back to the point of damage well. You have to have good form to make good progress. Case closed.

The problem with this is that most people don't want to spend the time under very "unmasculine" weights to perfect form and build the extreme range strength/flexability needed to perform these lifts correctly. They'll jump right in to weights that they can lift poorly. They may not be injured right away, but we all know what happens when you build a house on a shaky foundation...

Weightlifting hampering flexability is also the biggest crock I've heard in a very long time. I can't beleive it would come from a doctor. I guess it's just a case of all theory and no practice. Regular stretching will prevent this from ever happening. Of course their are those bahemouths that are just too big to be able to move. I'd say they are the exception rather than the rule. Most people won't have to worry about becoming 300 lbs muscle men.

[IronFist]

Knight Sabre, that's not bad. Do you Squat or Deadlift?

IronFist

[KnightSabre]

IronFist,

I don't squat but i do deadlift,allthough I haven't been paying it as much attention as I should.From tomorrow, me and my partner are going to start deadlifting more seriously.

For legs we train the leg press and leg extension,I know squatting is very important and at some stage we're definately gonna add it to our routine.

Do you weight train, and if you do, what are your favourite excercises?

[Cashier Graham]

Squats bad for knees? Funny I fixed my bad knees with squats(although without weights to begin with) and now there is no pain and my knees are very strong. Weightlifting doesn't just strengthen the muscles, it also strengthens the bones, tendons, ligaments etc. For my workout I do squats, benchpress, dead lift, dumbell press, dips, chin ups, sit ups, back extensions and occasionaly i'll do barbell/dumbell curls, preacher curls, hamstring curls, and whatever the excersise that targets your abductors is called. I do 12-15 reps sometimes more and usually 2 sets. I also incorperate supersets when I'm feeling strong with sit ups and backextensions, and chin ups and dips. If you havn't already guessed I train more for muscular endurance than maximal strength, but sometimes I'll train for strength.

[abobo]

The "squats are bad for the knees" argument isn't entirely wrong, but it is very incomplete.

Sure it puts stress on the body and places shear forces on the knee, but if you build up enough flexibility in the hips and ankles, and then progress patiently, your form will be fine, your connectors will be able to adapt, and the benefits will outweigh the risks immensely.

The biggest risk is the step back after putting the bar over your shoulders. If your put your foot down akwardly, it will hurt. Actually I take it back. Ego is the biggest risk. If you go too heavy and bounce on the way down due to lack of control, that will also hurt. But, believe it or not, it's possible to squat without letting your ego get in the way.

Anyway, check out what just might be the mother (http://www.sover.net/~timw/squat2.htm), daddy (http://www.dolfzine.com/page239.htm), and big sister (http://www.stumptuous.com/learnsquat.html) of squat articles on the web.

[Ging Mo Fighter]

squats are one of the best exercises you can do

if your hurting your knees your probably doing them wrong

[Ford Prefect]

Abobo makes a good point about the step back. Most powerlifting gyms have a type of rack where after you unrack the weight, your parter hits a lever and the rack slides away, so you don't need to step back at all. Heh! To squat big, check the articles section at:

http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com/

Their gym has multiple 1,000 lbs sqatters and quite a few 900 lbs squatters.