CMA and the Streets?

[Yung Apprentice]

While reading the post on which styles would be good for Law Enforcement, I noticed many recommended styles outside of CMA. (although Chin-Na was often mentioned) The majority of the styles recommended were JMA. Law Enforcement officers have to use this out on the street. Since the majority recommended JMAs, does that mean many of you think CMAs won't work very well out on the streets? (outside of chin-na)

[SevenStar]

As I said in that thread, it's not the style, but the format of training. I can box and grapple and learn to defend myself effectively long before I could by training in a CMA in most cases, due to the way those arts are taught.

[Yung Apprentice]

Whats your opinion on the format of training in CMA in general?

[SevenStar]

I like it, but it's slower. That seems to apply doubly if you are training something like hsing-i.

learning a single technique, or a small set of them, doing them with power, learining applications and moving training drills, partner drills, partner drills with power, forms, light fighting, medium contact fighting, harder contact.... the progression is too slow for someone who needs to learn effective techniques ASAP

[Yung Apprentice]

I wonder if the others who posted feel the same way.

[SevenStar]

I'm sure at least a handful do. I can think of a few...

[LEGEND]

Most CMA are striking arts...watching cops...they simply TACKLE and HOLD an opponent down till another cops come rolling. Looks like PURE WRESTLING( no submissions ) to me.

[Bolt]

My view...CMA takes many, many moons to learn and do correctly. Law enforcement does not have the time (etc.) to allow for this therefore foucs is put on holds (control techniques), strikes and takedowns that can be taught and learned quickly. They don't incorporate an entire system, only those techniques that can be learned and used effectively in and expeditious manner.

[Merryprankster]

SHOULD it take that long or is it a product of the prevalent training mindset?

I personally believe the latter.

[ewallace]

Sure CMA can be and is effective in the streets. But it usually takes a while to become effective. And with all of the cameras, civil rights groups and lawyers around these days it is generally frowned upon when a L/E officer starts chain punching a teenager in the back of the head because he was running away with a can of spray paint in his hand. :)

[Lowlynobody]

A kung fu person should be able to use the techniques from the first form (depending on the size of the form) in their system effectively within say 2 months. Else you’re not training hard enough.

Though I have met people who know a bunch of forms but have no idea how to use them against a resisting opponent and think that some of the techniques are useless or are near impossible to execute. And I'm talking simple stuff.

Then you move on and learn other more effective techniques or combinations of techniques that are much harder for the opponent to evade and counter. This is the process that takes some time.

So I agree with Merryprankster. One could be effective in a CMA in a short period of time but it depends on the method of training. I also agree with ewallace in that a cop on the news pheonix-eye-ing a perp into oblivion would look a little excessive =)

[bob10]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
SHOULD it take that long or is it a product of the prevalent training mindset?

I personally believe the latter.

I agree with you. I think that generally there is a massive over-emphasis on forms training. I realise that in a commercial environment people will cater to "what the public wants" but I don't think it makes for effective teaching of basic skills - even more so when you are dealing with the more "ritualised" type of form.

Since changin from that approach I've found that students improve a lot quicker overall as the emphasis is now constantly on working principles ina more spontaneous environment. Students spend less time worrying about if their hand is in the "right place" and more time learning to maintain the principles under pressure.

Whether CMA were always taught as they are today I don't know. I suspect not as it seems to me, reading the old stories, that people didn't spend 15 years training before becoming effective. Also if people were training bodyguards and the like, 15 years would be way too long!

[No_Know]

I'm thinking the techniques can be mimicked then practiced and fine-tuned to effectiveness. Wing Chun supposedly was efficient and could be used soon after learned. The trainings or practice make it more effective though.

Shaolin had a healing/meditation perspective. Others just wanted the fighting that grew from the healing and meditation. The stance work an other long whatevers might be the meditation or healing development aspect (besides a foundation for superior performance).

But the truth is irrelevant to me here. I learned it for the sake of it. The different aspects don't matter because I get it much.

Law enforcement people hitting gets bad P R. Eagle Claw locking techniques as taught by Sifu Lilly Lau seem appropriate for Law Enforcement peoples. Thy were designed for police to subdue...Theoretically.

Those just happen to be Chin-Nas.

[Former castleva]

Yeah.
Such techniques of the old which might have been very appropriate for current situations including possibly defeating the opponent are not even always appropriate for tougher situations of these days are hardly appropriate for police.
I guess this is where certain grappling and restraining methods are really great.When it comes to striking,a nightstick to knee may be OK but a knee to head may not be justified. ;)

But I think KF and styles like hapkido which I mentioned (which can strike and hurt a hell but which have tons of locking then which can either separate or just help to cooperate.)

[MonkeySlap Too]

It depends.

Shuai Chiao is taught to the police in Taiwan and the PRC. There is an old saying that translates as: "One year of Shiuai Chiao is as good as three years of other fist arts".

Someone training directly with me, who has basic conditioning and some heart, can be a good fighter in six months.

But to really be able to develop 'kung fu', as Seven said, takes much longer.

I also find that the CMA paradigm is so different from the Western one that it takes longer for Westerners to get the purpose of thier training. And most people are way to lazy to train like they should. Heck, high school wrestlers train harder than most martial arts types.

I agree witm Merryprankster that thre prevelant mindset does work against most CMA schools, but I would add that most CMA schools do not understand thier material to begin with. I see WAY to many forms collectors and magical chi hippies out there. That is NOT proper CMA training methodology.

So yeah - secretivness due to confucian influence, ignorance, and fraud are the biggest challenges faced by CMA.

On the other hand, there are plenty of good CMA - but most are not easily fit into the 'don't hurt the suspect' mind set. It's hard to explain why you busted the guys sternum if he turns out to be innocent...

[Ford Prefect]

Law Enforcment, Corrections Officers, Orderlies, Bouncers, etc have a completely different set of needs than a civilian on the street. In their world, size and strength rule when trying to restrain people. Their purpose isn't to take out a threat, it is to restrain somebody. I agree with what Merry said about mind set too.

[dezhen2001]

i agree with what you guys are saying on this...

for me i can only get to class (coz of distance) around once a month if i am lucky, so basically i train stances and forms in my own time, as well as footwork drills etc. When i DO have the chance of a partner and my teacher usually we train partner drills and chi sau :)

in my mind, things like stance training, forms and qigong are like "daily maintenance" once you have learned them and been corrected etc. Something you need to work on as much as possible, but can be done on your own time... If you have partners, then you can work on APPLYING principles and what you have been training... i think BOTH of these things are very important for developing skill.

i agree with what someone (MST?) said... that most people who train wrestling, boxing or whatever generally train far harder than most people who do CMA or JMA. Thankfully i am one of the 'lucky' ones and have to do my 'daily maintenance' from between 2-4 hours as well as whatever training i can do with a partner :p

so to me its more the attitude of the practitioner and way that you can train than the specific style or whatever...

just my thoughts
dawood

[Yung Apprentice]

I wasn't asking about CMA street effictiveness for LEOs, I was talking about for citizens.

[SevenStar]

As long as you are talking about learning to defend yourself in the quickest amount of time, the sentiment is probably the same.

[Rolling Elbow]

TAI-CHI. More specifically, push hands, rising and sinking,multiple strikes. That is useful for police officers who face big guyys wrestling with them and trying to grab their gun or baton.

[TaiChiStorm]

There's somthing that seems very strange to me:
I read in an article about the police in Beijing and it said that Beijing police officers recently have to learn AIKIDO to be able to control the millions of people coming to Beijing in 2008.
I mean China is the "Mekka of martial arts", with the greatest tradition and varity of different styles!!! Why the hell don't they learn CMA??? I can't imagine that. (even if I like Aikido very much)
Do you have any ideas what the reason might be??

[bob10]

Maybe the Mainland CMA have lost something?

[Former castleva]

TaiChiStorm,
dunno.
Sounded a bit freaky to me too,but still I believe that it is not that much of a question of the art.I bet there´s lots of stuff that could be taught to police forces (aikido,taught to police force a lot of course) but it just seems that aikido then could be preferred because of it´s probably good reputation and structure which fits in to police work pretty well.
Also could be that many KF styles as far as I know,lack grappling which could be used for police (not to say there would be no as then many styles have stuff)
Then if there is some decision being made on what to learn,it is hard to reverse.
And last but not the least,KF is,originally more like a battlefield art,and civilian too for sure...oh well.

[dezhen2001]

maybe its coz tokyo riot police and many other police groups train yoshinkan aikido so it has a very good reputaiong? I'm sure many good gong fu systems have plenty of qin na and other skills that can be used :confused:

dawood

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by TaiChiStorm
There's somthing that seems very strange to me:
I read in an article about the police in Beijing and it said that Beijing police officers recently have to learn AIKIDO to be able to control the millions of people coming to Beijing in 2008.
I mean China is the "Mekka of martial arts", with the greatest tradition and varity of different styles!!! Why the hell don't they learn CMA??? I can't imagine that. (even if I like Aikido very much)
Do you have any ideas what the reason might be??

Like bob10 said, maybe it's missing something. Also, the fact that many consider it the "Mekka of mratial arts" is kind of irrelevant, as over the years, so much has changed. Perhaps they feel that something like yoshinkan aikido better suits what they need. either way, what's it matter, as long as whatever they are training in is effective?

[TaoBoy]

On the law enforcement thread I mentioned some MAs that involved predominantly restraining techniques. Now, I could have mentioned SPM - which I study - but we are more into striking than restraining. Therefore, I deemed it to be less appropriate in the context of the afore mentioned thread. That said, it is a very street-effective style as are many CMAs. And yes, they do take some time to learn, and yes this is sometimes due to outdated training methods.

Peace my people. :)

[TaiChiStorm]

TaoBoy,Former castleva, bob10,dezhen2001,SevenStar
I agree that they probably believe that aikido "suit what they need!" It is so true that it takes a long time of practice until you are able to really use Kung Fu. Especially the chin na and other technics eccept punshing and kicking take a long time to learn. And I mean Aikido's philosophy is based on the idea to control your opponent without hurting him strongly. I didn't thought of that before!! Thanx.


Also, the fact that many consider it the "Mekka of mratial arts" is kind of irrelevant, as over the years, so much has changed.

SevenStar,
you are absolutely right!! We all know that all the traditional CMA styles become less popular even in China. All the young people are doing either Wushu or Sanda. I feel kind of sad about this, but we can't stop it. btw, do you think this could be the reason why more and more Chinese masters "open their kung Fu to the west"??

[JusticeZero]

LEO's learn JMA's of the Jujutsu family for similar reasons as why people who wish to excel at kicking look into the Korean arts, and why people who want to learn how to fight with sticks look to the FMA's. The Jujutsu root simply has a much more developed foundation for (specifically) takedowns and restraining techniques which leave the target relatively unharmed. LEO's have very specific requirements; they need to learn how to restrain subjects without damaging them. Just as the Filipino martial arts such as Kali, Arnis, etc. are typically considered to be the best source of knowledge about sticks, the Japanese Jujutsu-root martial arts are considered the best for the specific needs LEO's have.

The fact that police etc. study Jujutsu root arts does NOT imply that a non-LEO, who does not need to focus on subdual and restraining techniques, should study JMA.
That's like saying that "clearly, the Ford two-ton pickup truck is superior to the Toyota midsize auto. All of the people I know who work in construction own Ford two-ton pickups, because they say they can't be beat for hauling lumber. Thus, I think that everyone should buy two-ton pickups to drive to school or around town."