Does size matter?

[Yung Apprentice]

Kung Fu is said to have been created by small men who are quick. But as the argument goes, in the North people were big. But in many classes today, teachers will use the bigger students to demonstrate on, or will teach smaller students ways of dealing with bigger attackers, and at times may seem to pay more attention to the smaller students. What about big guys learning on smaller attackers? I for one am kinda big and slow and have a problem with dealing with the smaller quicker guy. Do you feel nowadays the big guy may be at a disadvantage when it come to learning? If not, how does your school deal with it?

[Chang Style Novice]

Size does matter. That's why there are weight classes in all combative sports. Bigger guys have more advantages, smaller guys have advantages, too, but not as many and don't come to as much of an overall advantage. I'm not sure why you seem to think smaller guys have the edge.

[Yung Apprentice]

Smaller guys definately have an advantage against me!!!:) I meant, do you think with all that I previously said that bigger guys are at a disadvantage when it come to LEARNING? Like a teacher may not spend as much time with a bigger guy as he would with a smaller guy? For instance, when I was taking TKD, I used to be used all the time for demos and such, so that the smaller students would learn who to deal with reach, and weight advantages. But my biggest problem is smaller quicker people, and my teacher never helped me with it. SO I was wondering if this may be a problem in other schools?

[SevenStar]

agreed. bigger guys usually have the strength, and in some cases also the reach. Take me for example - I am stocky with a low center of gravity, but I have long limbs, which gives me excellent reach. That combined with strength makes me a ***** to grapple with and the long limbs and strength are also an advantage in striking. sometimes bigger guys give up a speeed advantage, but that's not always the case, and the difference in speed is usually not that great, from my experience.

It also gets you alot of practice. I am the guy everyone wants to be able to throw, or the one everyone wants to beat in sparring. Another advantage is intimidation.

[TkdWarrior]

oh **** for a chance i though no not another **** question...:D
hey

U>>"I for one am kinda big and slow and have a problem with dealing with the smaller quicker guy. "
me> my teacher weighs around 95 kg and none of his kicks can be seen by eyes...u wont see him when he is on ur head...
i m around 78-80 kg i can deliever the fastest kick in my club, even then there r better students than me...
throw this pre conceived notation out of ur mind, u'll see the difference, u'll be faster than those smaller quicker guy
-TkdWarrior-

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Yung Apprentice
Smaller guys definately have an advantage against me!!!:) I meant, do you think with all that I previously said that bigger guys are at a disadvantage when it come to LEARNING? Like a teacher may not spend as much time with a bigger guy as he would with a smaller guy? For instance, when I was taking TKD, I used to be used all the time for demos and such, so that the smaller students would learn who to deal with reach, and weight advantages. But my biggest problem is smaller quicker people, and my teacher never helped me with it. SO I was wondering if this may be a problem in other schools?

I see what you're getting at. I can agree with you there. I take initiative on my own though - I'm a striker by nature, and it's been pretty easy for me to devise strategies in sparring. Grappling is a different story. I ALWAYS ask questions what I would do against various sized people, as different sixed people have different advantages. matter of factly, in my judo class, we are taught all of the throws eventually, but initially they are taught according to body type, as different sized people have an easier time doing certain throws.

[rubthebuddha]

if size didn't matter, then i don't think there'd be stuff like wing chun.

but it does. bigger people are more difficult to move, and they typically can take more punishment. hitting the woman at my school who's shorter than five feet and quite petite in the chest half-force would probably break or bruise something badly, while hitting the guy who's 6'4" and solid right in the chest might annoy him.

it's why arts began to pick more vulnerable targets, like eyes, ears (palm attacks, etc.), nose, throat, package, floating ribs, knees, tops of feet, etc. -- the short lady can crush my throat almost as simply as the big guy -- not as easy strength-wise, but her wee arms can get through the smallest of openings.

[Yung Apprentice]

But there are exceptions to that rubthebuddha. My sister hits harder than most of the guys I've been in a fight with. Including someone 6'3". And there are big folx with weak chins. It's because of this thinking I never got paid attention to in class, except when I was being used for a demo.

[Chang Style Novice]

Okay, yes! I do agree that, especially in a self-defense oriented class, a teacher is likely to help the folks who are smaller defend against those who are bigger more than the other way around. And as a big dude myself, I tend to get tapped for demos a lot.

Mostly the way we deal with it (since you asked) is everyone pushes hands against everyone else, so you get experience dealing with people of all the shapes we have available, and shifu offers suggestions to beat the strategies that are winning. In other words, he doesn't concentrate on the smaller people, he concentrates on the underdogs regardless of other factors.

Have I answered you question yet?

[Yung Apprentice]

Yes! Thanx!:D

[rubthebuddha]

yung,

there will always be exceptions. i was just talking generalities. i have a sidai who's far bigger than me and hits like a weenie, and i have a simui who's much smaller who can clock you silly.

in addition, i've noticed that smaller people are usually better scrappers. they may not be the biggest or the strongest, but they'll be **** if they don't make you pay for every punch you land.

[Yung Apprentice]

If there are always exceptions, than why pay so much attention to generalities? The reason why I didn't learn much in TKD, was because of generalities.

[Chang Style Novice]

That's one of the things I love about tai chi. Almost all our 'hands on' time is spent pushing on each other, so there's no silliness about 'if he does this then I do that' - it's all about feeling what's coming next and stopping it before it starts, which is a skill that applies to anything, not just narrow scenarios.

[Budokan]

Yes, size matters. It takes more energy expenditure to drop a big guy than it does a smaller one, assuming you have the necessary skills in the first place to drop either one.

Size always matters.

[Yung Apprentice]

But a big guy spends energy quicker than a small guy. The bigger they are, the harder they fall!!!!You must forgive me, the title of this topic is misleading, it was meant to get people's attention. That is not really the question I was asking.



Although, budokan, there are always exceptions.

[Merryprankster]

A big guy can also, generally speaking, absorb more punishment. He is also exerting relatively LESS energy trying to engage the smaller man. At 180, getting hit by a 130 lb fellow isn't nearly as punishing as getting hit by a 230 lber. And I will expend far less energy pushing around the 130 lb guy than he will, me.

If size didn't matter, they wouldn't have weight classes in combat sports. Generally speaking, a good big man will beat a good little man. Exceptions abound, but they are exceptions that prove the rule.

[Helicopter]

I'm 5'8" and 11 1/2 stone 185llbs in my limited experience, I have found that fighting taller folks is not that big a problem. I like getting into an in-fighting situation where they lose their advantage, as a boxer will tell you, it's difficult to punch downwards at a shorter opponent.

However my instuctor is tall and heavy and in an in-fighting situation uses his strength to grapple and his weight to tire you out. Though I do retain the advantages of being smaller.

The worst opponents for me are guys who are a similar height to me, but much heavier.

I don't think size should matter in terms of whether they can absorb more punishment as you shouldn't be striking to the places where this would make a difference.

Certainly size can be he one factor to tip the balance in a situation where you have two highly trained athletes.

[Helicopter]

You sound you like you have the perfect proportions for a fighter.



(You also sound you like you have the perfect proportions for a baboon (http://www.animalinyou.com/baboon.JPG), but I won't dwell on that. ) :p (http://www.animalinyou.com/baboon.JPG)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Yung Apprentice
But a big guy spends energy quicker than a small guy.

I'm usually the last one to gas when I'm going against smaller guys, especially while grappling. they have to expend WAY more energy to deal with me than I have to with them. If you know how to stay relaxed, it's not a huge problem.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Helicopter
You sound you like you have the perfect proportions for a fighter.



(You also sound you like you have the perfect proportions for a baboon (http://www.animalinyou.com/baboon.JPG), but I won't dwell on that. ) :p (http://www.animalinyou.com/baboon.JPG)

funny you should mention that. My first judo coach told me I had a "perfect judo body" and I was nicknamed "gorilla man". In my current class, they call me "bull".

[Former castleva]

I think what we can and should understand is that to assume that person´s skills of combat depend on his/her size is a myth.
It can make a difference of course and will,this is why one of primary responsibilites of a good MA technique would be to NOT depend on great force to succeed which will then fail aganst a stronger opponent (pretty basic,but oh well)
I really believe in atemi waza when it comes to body size issues,as previously mentioned,a bigger ship will shink just like a smaller ship once there is a hole in it in a thin spot.
Besides that,mass can be turned against the opponent and can be counterproductive for Bubba if one is familiar with the art of redirecting (that is a bit hard though)
I like to call this external understanding of power "western idea of strength".
Sure if I´d be to get ruffled by someone,I´d like the opponent to be less large.

[Shisio]

Well Yung,
The advantages of weight really depend on the context. For example, you were training in TKD, right? I'd totally see why you'd have trouble there! Most TKD schools focus virtually only on speed (like point sparring...), which is probubly not your strong point. And what better way for an instructor to show off his art, and to get his students to have faith in the art then to defy a sterotype (that the big guy always wins)? If you like kicking a lot, you might find Thai boxing more up your ally (since it focuses more on power).
Now if we're talking about a street fist fight, I'd have to say the big guy would have better odds. Why? Cause like others have said, he should be able to take an dish out more pain then someone smaller.
But if we're talking about a knife (or even gun fight) fight, the big guy might have a signifacant range advantage (but not with gun....), but overall could be at a crucial speed disadvatage (not to mention being an easier target).
But then again, I never know what to expect- cause the sterotype goes both ways- I've seen 300lb'ers move like lighting and 130ers lift up cars. I'm not that big, actually I fit Bruce Lee's body weight & size to a T, so I constently get underestimated. A lot of big guys try to crush me, which isn't fun, and small guys try beat me with speed. I try to take them out with the same weapon- my mind & technique. I know it's trite, and we've all heard it, but it works.

[Neurotic]

Yung -

What did you Sifu say when you asked him what to do about quicker smaller opponents, and your issues with dealing with them?

I'm sure he had some good wisdom to share.

Neurotic

[n0rmann]

I personally like when my sifu demonstrates on me. I think it helps to learn when someone is doing the move correclty done to you. I find I can do the move better after he does it to me, well, when I can use the appendage he demonstrates on.

Unfortunately, he doesn't demonstrate on me as much as I'd like. He usually shows people how not to do something, then the correct way, but he said it's difficult doing a move incorrectly on me.

[Yung Apprentice]

My TKD teacher was a very buisy guy. He would often say"try harder" or "work on your forms more" and it left me more confused than I was before.I was often ignored in my class. I had some really awful experiences at that school, that has made me kinda reluctant to step back into martial arts. I had no idea how to apply TKD in a real fight, many of the smaller students who were paid more attention to, did. So the one time I tried using TKD in a real fight, I got my @$$ handed to me! Two days later I reverted back to my old scrapping ways and basically outslugged the guy.

Shisio- Thanx for the insight. I favor my hands and upper body strikes than my legs and kicks. Because I'm not agile or quick enough to pull off some kicks. But I do have power in my kicks, just not to quick.

[LEGEND]

YUNG...pick up boxing and/or muy thai! TKD is ok...notice that most peeps in TKD have a slim/tall feature...not really built like a fighter...yes they are fast as hell but I'm sure if u were allowed to use punches in TKD many of those kicks wouldn't have done SHIET!

[Yung Apprentice]

There are a couple CMA schools that are good out here, that I'm looking at. There is a Hsing-Yi school that I heard is very good, some really good Wing Chun schools, one is from the Yip Ching lineage, and another school that I am interested in is an eclectic school. The school is based on Lama Crane, with Jkd principles, boxing, and a little wing chun thrown in. The intriguing part of the school is, there is another instructer that teaches strictly Bjj.

There are of course boxing gyms out here, this being Vegas and all, but they can be very expensive. However, once I start my traing I don't have to travel very far to find a good sparring partner, as far as sparring a boxer, because my friend trains at the Top Rank Gym, and is considered a good up and comer.

Which school based on the style would probably fit me better? I know I make the style work, and styles have nothing to do with how good a teacher teaches, but just based on those styles, which might you think suit me better?

[LEGEND]

I favor my hands and upper body strikes than my legs and kicks. Because I'm not agile or quick enough to pull off some kicks. But I do have power in my kicks, just not to quick.

Sounds like a BOXER...supplement it with some WRESTLING to avoid being taken down. How hard can u HIT???

[TjD]

my sigung is ip ching, if you want i can ask sifu about the wing chun guy your talking about and see if he knows anything about him

[LEGEND]

In my opinion...answering your question...
DOES SIZE MATTER!
Yes it does...cause at 5ft 7inches 150lbs...I wish I had a bigger **** to bone other girls of different races( whites, blacks etc... )...but since I don't have the SIZEEEEEEEEE... :( unfortunately I most stick to asian chicks...OPPPPPPPPPPPPPs wrong subject matter.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by LEGEND
In my opinion...answering your question...
DOES SIZE MATTER!
Yes it does...cause at 5ft 7inches 150lbs...I wish I had a bigger **** to bone other girls of different races( whites, blacks etc... )...but since I don't have the SIZEEEEEEEEE... :( unfortunately I most stick to asian chicks...OPPPPPPPPPPPPPs wrong subject matter.

TMI bud, TMI!! In the meantime though, make them believe that it's not the size of the ship that counts, but the motion of the ocean...

[Merryprankster]

This thread has seriously caught the gay.

[No_Know]

It seems to me that weight classes came about as a promotion matter. People would likely get discouraged if there could be only one. With weight classes there can be three or more called number one in the same field.

No weight class is the best way to see who the best fighter is. Big-ish or smaller, utilizing ones advantages and the other's disadvantages...This is fighting.

[eulerfan]

I'm 5'10, 145. A girl so not a lot in the upper body or anywhere body strength category.

Now, in a fight situation, you instinctively want to use power. Strength. If you are strong, this isn't a problem. If you are weak, you have to fight that urge. Maybe not but that's the way my sifu teaches it.

If you're strong, he let's you use it.

Me, on the other hand, he won't let me rely on strength. At all.

Last night, I came up with an application. He worked with me on it. His first criticism was, 'you're using too much force.' We worked on it for a while and, the end result was a very similar move. However, instead of blocking, I stepped out of the way. Instead of fiercely grabbing the arm, I lightly draped my hands over it. Only then did I use force and it was the force of my whole body turning.

He yelped. I said, "I'm sorry. I didn't think I was putting any pressure on you."

"You weren't, not with your muscles. Did you hear that pop?"

I was DOING it and I couldn't really sense how much power was in it.

I think it's just that much more difficult to teach a weaker person to fight. Because, you teach a strong person not to rely on strength TOO MUCH. With a weak person, you have to take it out of the equation completely. That's really hard, just really subtle and counter-intuitive.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by No_Know
It seems to me that weight classes came about as a promotion matter. People would likely get discouraged if there could be only one. With weight classes there can be three or more called number one in the same field.

No weight class is the best way to see who the best fighter is. Big-ish or smaller, utilizing ones advantages and the other's disadvantages...This is fighting.

I disagree. It's for power reasons. when I grapple people smaller than myself, naturally I have an easier time. It's not as easy when the person is my size. On that same note, as skilled as de la hoya is, lewis or tyson would lay him out, because they have a weight and strength advantage.

[Yung Apprentice]

I'm 5'10" and 200 lbs. I should be at somewhere between 170 to 180, because I do have a wide frame. Like I said before, I'm stocky. I do hit pretty hard, I'm pretty confident with my hands.

[Yung Apprentice]

TjD- please ask your sigung. The teachers name here is Sean Meyer. Thank you.

[No_Know]

SevenStar that's exactly what I said. -ish If there are three places for best in the world at the same basic event~ this is a lie~ As there can be only one best. They have the divisions because skill might not be good enough when it meets power enough. They need different skills that the different sizes/power ranges don't work on because theare so good in other areas.

I hope that I don't need people to learn some and beat the ones in their classs and that's fine with them. No for bookies to have more things on which to to make money. I'd like to see everyone advace by all together to over come the top at the moment. And watch as speed increases and power increases and endurance increases and people balance these to degrees where almost anyone could win if they exploit their strengthst and weaknesses and do the same to the opponent.

[FatherDog]

Think of the size and strength of a person as the caliber of a bullet.

What's most important is skill; if you don't hit your target, you can be firing a cannon, and it won't matter.

But if two people are both skilled enough to get a consistent CBM (center of body mass) shot, then the guy with the 22 is going to put his opponent in a lot of pain, but the guy with the .45 APC is gonna put a hole in his opponent big enough to toss a cat through.

Of course, if two people are both skilled enough to consistently get a shot in the eye of their opponent, it doesn't really matter what caliber they're using... just who's fastest or who makes the first mistake.

But the vast majority of trained martial artists are more in the consistent CBM category. So strength and size definitely plays a part.

[Yung Apprentice]

Legend- given the schools and styles I said about earlier, which would you suggest?