A stupid question about WC

[Yung Apprentice]

How long would estimate it would take on in Wing Chun to be able to apply WC in an actual fight? Is Chin-Na used in Wing Chun?

[hunt1]

Yung- A good question. It will depend on your instructor. I had a 9 month twice a week student handle himeslf in a 1 on 5 situation with bouncers at a strip club. On the other hand at many of the bigger chain schools it could be 2 to 3 times as long to get the same information.

[black and blue]

Depends on the guy you're fighting, how you train, what you train, where it happens, how many people are involved etc.

I've seen some weird sh*t! A bloke hit the face with a skateboard, someone hit over the back of the head with a brick, a WC guy chain punch someone from one side of the pub to the other.

I know a Wing Chunner who, in Brighton, was asked the time from a guy passing by. As he looked at his watch the guy hit him full in the face with an un-opened can of Pepsi, and then hit him and kicked him until he was almost unconscious.

I know another Wing Chunner (4 years experience) who got into a scrap with five bouncers and took two of them down before getting lamped by the third, fourth and fifth. (ouch)

But me, personally, I've been training 18 months or so and I'm invincible.... kinda. :)

[Mr. Bao]

The amount of time which it takes to work your skills in combat all depends on your teacher and what you do daily as practice. I can't give you a time frame because there are too many factors to consider. However, if you work hard and practice realistic and correct wing chun about 15 hours a week I am sure you will gain something of worth within three months.

The style of Chin Na is not within the Yip Man wing chun method. But there is a number of holds and pins used in wing chun kung fu. Chin Na is a style in itself, and I have heard people using Chin Na in their wing chun. I have not heard of such things by any of the students of Yip Man, not even William Cheung has mention Chin Na in his "traditional wing chun" method.


Bao

[Chuk Hung]

Originally posted by Mr. Bao
The amount of time which it takes to work your skills in combat all depends on your teacher and what you do daily as practice. I can't give you a time frame because there are too many factors to consider. However, if you work hard and practice realistic and correct wing chun about 15 hours a week I am sure you will gain something of worth within three months.

The style of Chin Na is not within the Yip Man wing chun method. But there is a number of holds and pins used in wing chun kung fu. Chin Na is a style in itself, and I have heard people using Chin Na in their wing chun. I have not heard of such things by any of the students of Yip Man, not even William Cheung has mention Chin Na in his "traditional wing chun" method.


Bao

It is difficult to quantify the amount of time to gain fighting proficiency, let alone proficiency in Wing Chun fundamentals. It all depends on the instructor's teaching methodology and the aptitude of the student. I believe the phrase, "it is the quality, and not the quantity" that holds true. My best advice is to set goals for yourself, and work hard and diligently on reaching each one progressively. Keep in mind, you want to be a Wing Chun practitioner / fighter, and not a brawler.

Chin Na is not a style in itself, it is found within all styles of kung fu. It can be seen in external styles like Hung Gar, all the way to internal styles like Tai Chi, in which it is taught at their highest level. Wing Chun was devised to develop capable fighting proficiency within a shorter time frame than the other, much older traditional styles. There was no time to be spent teaching Chin Na, where it is taught at a very late stage of development in the other styles. Especially in the midst of a rebellion against the Manchu dynasty.

Chin Na is applied when you have bridged with your opponent, not much different from bridging in Chi Sao. Chin Na works best when you are in a relaxed state, facilitatiing sensitivity, once again, the same with Chi Sao. Chin Na locks and holds are not forced, they are applied when the correct situation presents itself, and by using the opponent's energy against themselves. This may explain why some Wing Chun practitioners are able to add Chin Na application to their training. The bridge between Chin Na and Chi Sao can be easily seen.

[teazer]

WC also has, right from the start, handy things to get out of or not get into chi-na situations.

[reneritchie]

Application skill depends on the individual. Wing Chun != Fighting. WCK can make you better at fighting, but what your base level is will depend on how fast you can apply it.

Chin Na is an old way of Romanizing Qin Na, which is the Mandarin pronounciation of Kum Na (Cantonese), meaning Seize and Control. It is not a system or style in its own right as some people call it (they just do one branches version of Kum Na and call it a system), but part of the complete package of Chinese MA (including striking, throwing, and strangulation/choking). Every traditional style had Kum Na, though not every exponent learned it or past it on, or even liked it very much. The degree, however, varied, from it being the preferred method (some Eagle Claw) to mostly disfavored.

Some branches of WCK claim not to have Kum Na, though they still contain the motions of it in their sets (it remains a potential, un-utilized at the moment). Others have kept it up. Some have re-adapted it from outside sources. Individual mileages may vary.

WCK Kum Na, however, is not the same as some other branches, or like popular conceptions (flavored by Aikido for the most part). It's not really designed to capture and hold down and opponent. It's designed, like much of the rest of the art, to clear the centerline and help finish the opponent. Thus, WCK Kum Na wouldn't hold you in an arm bar but would violently apply it to either get your limb out of the way (if you can get out of it fast enough) or cause you severe joint damage (if you can't), and clear the path for the pummeling to continue.

WCK is also very well known for its Fan Kum Na (Anti or Counter Kum Na), which are movements and counter locks used against those who use Kum Na. This has a similar method and purpose - to violently get rid of the attempted lock and/or injure the opponent so we can continue the base WCK strategy of combat.

I can, however (and often am) completely wrong, bordering on delusional, so feel free to ignore.

RR

[yuanfen]

The style of Chin Na is not within the Yip Man wing chun method.
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Depends on what means. Chin Na is not a style but a function that can be performed in good kung fu. That function can be performed with wing chun too IMO...

[teazer]

Originally posted by Chuk Hung
Wing Chun was devised to develop capable fighting proficiency within a shorter time frame than the other, much older traditional styles. There was no time to be spent teaching Chin Na, where it is taught at a very late stage of development in the other styles.

Though most folks still have at least a nod in the direction of chi na with the dummy arm-breaky bits.

[Mr. Bao]

Jesus Christ my comment has opened a can of worms. Ok, it is a problems of definition here. Allow me to clear my meaning and my ideas here.

Chin Na is an element in most kung fu systems true, but there are kung fu people who soely study Chin Na as a complete form of kung fu.

The thing I see people do in chi sao in some wing chun schools look like aikido or jujitsu locks which aren't in the forms. Like a chicken wing or Ki lock, but hey that is chin na to them.

Granted there are control and seize movements, but there are not like anything in aikido, jujitsu, and any grapple system. Taking the freedom to use what works is great but let be honest about where the techniques came from and not just labeled it "wing chun" for it is own sake.

As far I know can anyone here hear or read of "chin na" or "kum na" from any of Yip Man students? So all I am saying that wing chun does not have the Shaolin Chin Na movement founded in Mr. Ming's book which the "young apprentice" asked. If you ever looked at Ming's book on chin na; please tell me you have that in wing chun and I will die laughing. lol. Take care fellas.


Bao

[[Censored]]

Taking the freedom to use what works is great but let be honest about where the techniques came from and not just labeled it "wing chun" for it is own sake.

Name one technique that was "invented" by Wing Chun. Just one. Then we can all die laughing together. ;)

And BTW, it's Mr. Yang not Mr. Ming.

[Mr. Bao]

Censored:

Actually according to story told my the old man (Yip Man) Yim Wing Chun did not invent anything but learned from Ng Mui. So I am sorry we can "die laughing together". lol


Bao

[yuanfen]

Mr.Bao sez:As far I know can anyone here hear or read of "chin na" or "kum na" from any of Yip Man students? So all I am saying that wing chun does not have the Shaolin Chin Na movement founded in Mr. Ming's book which the "young apprentice" asked. If you ever looked at Ming's book on chin na; please tell me you have that in wing chun and I will die laughing.
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Yang is not a wing chun person. You dont have to do Yang's chin na, aikido or jujutsu in order to apply wing chun motions froma wing chun structure for seizing or controlling joints or cavities.

[Mr. Bao]

Yuan,

You have stated you can use chin na in wing chun. But you haven't answered my question which you quoted in your post. Tell me if there is any record of Yip Man students speaking about "chin na" or "kum na" in their wing chun?

If you read what i posted, I said there are joint immoblization techniques in wing chun but they don't look like Yang's Chin Na techniques in his book or any japanese based art. If you want to add them in to your wingchun skills that is your right, but don't call it wing chun technique.

I will paraphase your quote to help you understand my view:
Tyson is not a wing chun person.You don't need to Peek-a- Boo boxing, Flippino boxing, or thai boxing in order to apply wing chun motion from a wing chun structure for striking and kicking joints and cavities.

Yang's chin na is not wing chun's chin na. Get it? The same idea that Tyson boxing is not wing chun boxing.


Bao

[reneritchie]

A couple points to consider:

I have Yang's 3 books on Shaolin Qin Na, & his book on Taiji Qin Na. These are all really books on Fujian White Crane Qin Na, of course, which he is expressing as "Shaolin" or "Taiji". I've also had previous experience in Judo and JJ, and a little Aiki, and in locks in other TCMA. The principles are all very similar, only the engines differ (as the engines of the arts themselves differ).

While not as elaborate, nor subject to as much minor variation as the JJ or Yang's Qin Na material, you can find much of the same matter in WCK, only from a WCK context (which I actually prefer since the leverage and tighter circles combine for some really sweet effects).

On the subject of YMWCK, the core martial material is there whether any particular sifu chooses to focus or even acknowlege it or not. WCK is built upon a foundation of thousands of years of Chinese martial development where each and every move was supposed to be useful for striking, locking, throwing, etc. [Censored] is correct in that none of what WCK does appeared in someone's dream from the Gods. It's just another step, in a particular direction, of TCMA evolution.

Some things to think about:

Wong Wah-Bo, Leung Yee-Tai, Dai Fa Min Kam et. al. were well versed in Weng Chun Kuen, which is renown for its locking (examine your pole set for modern remnants).

Yip Man worked with the police in Foshan. Cantonese police's major weapon (since guns weren't plentyful then) were seizing and holding techniques to capture and control suspects.

RR

[yuanfen]

Bao sez:Tell me if there is any record of Yip Man students speaking about "chin na" or "kum na" in their wing chun?
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Bao: Wing chun is a "doing" and "showing" art- less of a "speaking"art. Yes- it has been shown- though evidently you havent seen it or so it appears in your posts.

Good post Rene. It always amazes me that some folks put limitations on wing chun usage based on a reference to specific techniques. . Again, wing chun is not a technique based art.
As you point out --- if you develop the wing chun engine ( and the structure, dynamics and footwork) you can act in a very wide variety of contexts.

[Neurotic]

Originally posted by reneritchie

Some branches of WCK claim not to have Kum Na, though they still contain the motions of it in their sets (it remains a potential, un-utilized at the moment). Others have kept it up. Some have re-adapted it from outside sources. Individual mileages may vary.


While i have yet to go through my form sets, and have a good look at what be lying under the serfaec in terms of Qinna, I was wondering if you would expand upon some specifics of forms where you have seen Quinna applications?

- Every day I turn around and find something new in a form I didn't realise was there before.

Neurotic

[Jeff Preston]

There is never a stupid question, just stupid people answering the questions.