Qi in JKD

[Darkwind3773]

I was just wondering, how many JKD practitioners believe in the existence of qi? If you do, do you integrate it into your training somehow?

[Cesar Perez]

i do believe in these if i didnt i wouldnt exhale while punching. i dont believe it s a power i believe its a state of mine that makes u punch faster and that makes u be immune to blows but it is not easy to master this state of mine, to get it you must train with someone who has qi.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I'm sorry but it sounds like that you don't use qi based on your descriptions. Just because one exhales on a punch does not mean that qualifies for qi usage. Qi is not a state of mind it is an intrinsic energy cultivated alongside with the cultivation of ones awareness. From experience and my JKD friends experience JKD does not exclusively use Qi, and I have never ever believed that Bruce Lee ever directly tried to cultivate.
When you speak about being immune to blows, that is a little incorrect or lacking in detail. One has to train Iron Body Qi Gong for that ability. Just because you have qi doesn't mean at all that you can withstand blows to the body.
By the way one can cultivate Qi by oneslef, its just quicker to train with a master.

By and large though JKD doesn't use Qi in its art.

[yenhoi]

Im sorry repulsive monkey, but it sounds like you dont know what your babbling off at random.

[Repulsive Monkey]

would you care to give some more detail on your comment please? I would like to be put straight on this one!because JKD is NOT an iternal art. But please carry on.

[yenhoi]

1st, you would need to explain to me what qi is, and how to cultivate and use it.

Then you would need to define what makes an art internal.

Also, how does Iron Body Qi Gong work?

I dont understand why Cesar said if he didnt believe in qi he wouldent exhale while punching, at the same time I dont understand nearly anything you said in respose to him or the poster.

Quote Repulsive:

By and large though JKD doesn't use Qi in its art.

--

I agree with this considering the wide range of differences found in the art of JKD from one kwoon to another, but again, how do you use Qi............. also In some of Bruce Lee's published notes you will find many refrences to Qi. Although in the same notes he shuns kung-fu forms and Im assuming that would include any sort of Qi Gong, but:

Quote Repulsive:

Qi is not a state of mind it is an intrinsic energy cultivated alongside with the cultivation of ones awareness

--

JKD is all about awareness - so shouldent that make it a prime for cultivating qi?

[Darkwind3773]

JKD may not be an exclusively internal art, but could you not incorporate aspects of it into the training thereof? Not to say that you should add whatever you feel like, but Bruce encouraged the studying of other arts, to at least get an understanding of them.


JKD is all about self-examination. If cultivating qi through Qi Gong or other means helps you discover who you really are, then I feel that there is no reason not to invest time in it. JKD may not be an internal art, but it doesn't mean that you should rule out qi cultivation based solely on that fact.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Even the classics state that internal arts use Qi whilst external arts manifest their power through Li, which is from the few JKD'ers that I have met is exactly what is used. What Qi cultivating exercises did Bruce Lee teach when first espousing JKD?
Very little to none is my guess. I remember hearing a quote from a female Taiji Master who could remember that although Taiji was Bruce's first art taught to him, he had no patience in Qi developing exercises and went to the more external arts for his satisfaction.

An internal art is that which exclusively uses Qi and not much , if at all , on Li. That would be a first step in defining what an Internal martial art is, and thats from a Taiji classic.

Awareness alone is not gonna do much for you Qi cultivation. What are you being aware of? How are you directing your awareness to cultivate Qi? Yenhoi your statement is too general.

Iron body works in two ways one either trains it via hard qigong methods or one does it soft qigong methods by example of directing Qi into the fascia of muscles and sealing it within through muscular tension, known as qi-packing qigong. Thats how one does Iron Shirt development.

[yenhoi]

Repulsive, you answered none of my questions.

To answer one of yours, to my understanding at least:

What Qi cultivating exercises did Bruce Lee teach when first espousing JKD?

Bruce Lee taught forms (specifically Wing Chun forms) for much of his teaching time.

It is my understanding that the Sil Lum Tao is a Qi Gong exercise, and many WC people would argue it is Qi "cultivating" (whatever you mean by that..)

Other than that, you sound very smart when it comes to CMA and CMA jargon, but for some reason unable or unwilling to share your meaning.

By the way, do the classics (which classics again??) have a list somewhere that I missed explaining which arts are internal and which external, and maybe an abstract or something explaining what makes an art internal and which external? I guess you can say more Qi and Li but you havent told us what the hell those are either..... :(

[Rafael]

I would like to write that Bruce Lee infact was very much into the internal side of martial arts . In fact Patrick Strong who trained with Bruce in the Seatle years has said Bruce Had them learn a Thai Chi form . Fact is Bruce's father was steeped into tai chi .

Bruce was very much into Wing Chun the seattle years and infact practiced Sil lum tau 7 to 8 times a day ! WC can be very internal like especialy the first 3rd of that form.........
(qi chi development as well as many things like body unity connection and structure )


The "COREJKD" as practiced by Sifu Patrick Strong has very many internal elements like the development of Pea-ching ect .

I practice corejkd and it at times can be very internal .

My goal as well as the Core JKD 's is to balance internal with external ,Ying and yang if you will.


To answer the main question as a Corejkd practioner I do belive in QI,CHI ,
JING ,PEA CHING AND ALL THAT GOOD STUFF ! =)


Thanks

RF

[Rafael]

CHIHAND MARTIAL ARTS - an affiliate of 'Little Dragons Alliance'
Website and Discussion Forum http://chihand.com


RF-

[yenhoi]

Its also of note to remind people that what Bruce Lee practiced and taught decades ago has very little bearing on the state of current JKD.

[Darkwind3773]

Interesting. CoreJKD is the only type of JKD that I've not heard of. Do they teach a lot of the original stuff or do they stress experimentation?

[Rafael]

Darkwind ,

Please click on the link I left above to answer your questions on the "coreJkd " approach . Patrick Strong is the person who named it that being he studied with Bruce and later on also had very deep studies in Wing Chun and other arts .. When he met Bruce he had good experience as a Western Boxer.


Yenhoi ,

I can only agree with your statements on the current state of JKD or what people are claiming it to be .

I had looked /practiced different JKD methods(WC as well!) and found this CoreJKD approach quite refreshing deep internal and external as well as unique .

Please check out the link as well when you get a chance .

Thanks

RF-

[Repulsive Monkey]

I found some of those Chihand pictures quite laughable to be honest. With the person standing on the inflatable ball why on earth would someone want to push them on their wrist. If that person had pushed them lower in the body maybe directly on the solar plexus and he still hadn't come off then maybe one consider that something internal was going on. I'm totally unconvinced that any of that had anything to do with internal work.

By the way Bruce may of had an interest in internal work but he didn't exclusively (and from what I've heard certainly hardly ever trained in it at all) use it. Just watching his films both commercial and private footage one can see that he is not an internalist.

The classics do not list martial arts as being external or internal, they say the use of Li is external and the use of Qi is internal. If you are unaware of the meaning of these two words then I would have to assume that you're not an internalist. One conducts strength through tension of the muscles one conducts strength through issuing of Qi/Jin from relaxed muscles originating from the Dantien.

[yenhoi]

:rolleyes:

[Rafael]

You are intitled to your opinions granted as opinions may vary on Bruce lee.

I would invite you to explore and feel the corejkd approach so you can judge in person . We have some practioners in the UK . bUT.........

Not very wise to knock something you probably have no idea about and or you probably yourself cannot do. =)

That picture is a demonstration of vital structure . It is so people can see you can hold structure even in odd situations . You mention if he pushed in the lower body it would mean something .

I am willing to bet if you pushed on him anywhere he would hold (structure wise)

Your comments make me belive you may be limited in your understanding as WE understand structure and conection..


By the what do you do ? To understand Bruce Lee and what he did one cannot just observe from the outside and most participate in it . One cannot swim on dry land .



RF-

[Repulsive Monkey]

I respect what you're saying but I'm talking about internal work. There is nothing to say that that an external art can't master body dynamics in order to to show a rooted stability. My mainstay of debate, was about the use of Qi in JKD, and I argued that it isn't an exclusive or foundational element that Bruce Lee taught.
Maybe you can answer a few questions for me to help clear up the matter or give me some more insight?
Why kind of Qi-gong does JKD teach for Qi cultivation? Bruce Lee early on on his career gave up with internal martial arts as one of his friends who is now a known Taiji Master said that he had no paitience with it, and that was her own words on a documantary about Bruce which she featured in, so I'm taking her word for that, c'os to be honest how do I know?
But the scope of the kind of training he did was obviously external, and from the few books I've read of his its all ok spouting bits of Taoist thought but how much of an internalist was he really? Because so far I've yet to see any compared to traditional internal arts. If you have extra information I'd feel educated to learn of it. So please do inform me.
This is no venting of spleen, this is just me going on what I have and trying to learn more.

Regards.

[Rafael]

<I respect what you're saying but I'm talking about internal work. There is nothing to say that that an external art can't master body dynamics in order to to show a rooted stability.>

We are in agreement here.


< My mainstay of debate, was about the use of Qi in JKD, and I argued that it isn't an exclusive or foundational element that Bruce Lee taught.
Maybe you can answer a few questions for me to help clear up the matter or give me some more insight?>

I will try to answer your questions which are good by the way . =)


<Why kind of Qi-gong does JKD teach for Qi cultivation?>

Well as far as I know in the system of Jun fan and JKD there is a reliance on Wing Chun for Qi development . Particualry in the WC
forms like Sil lum tau (first 3rd of this form) . Some JKD schools have abandoned WC Theroy and practice so I am only speaking from the core JKD standpoint.

Countinuing there are really no forms that are JKD 'S alone to promote qi . One must go outside JKD to do this to study taiji ,Wing chun paqua just to name a few . Not to say like we both agreed in could be a byproduct of extenal training eventually .

But Bruce did borrow meditation ( standing and moving) and other excersises to develope qi from other arts outside what he eventually came up with . So the way most JKD is practiced now a day one must go outside to develope qi .

I myself practiced some tai chi and have a lot of experience in Wing Chun before I really practiced JKD .

<
Bruce Lee early on on his career gave up with internal martial arts as one of his friends who is now a known Taiji Master said that he had no paitience with it, and that was her own words on a documantary about Bruce which she featured in, so I'm taking her word for that, c'os to be honest how do I know?>

You must understand what Bruce's goals where . In Gung fu it was to be the absolute best fighter he could be . We both know to fight one can do this being purly external if the person wanted it that way .


<But the scope of the kind of training he did was obviously external, and from the few books I've read of his its all ok spouting bits of Taoist thought but how much of an internalist was he really? Because so far I've yet to see any compared to traditional internal arts. If you have extra information I'd feel educated to learn of it. So please do inform me.
This is no venting of spleen, this is just me going on what I have and trying to learn more.>

I think for the most part your right in where Bruce was not really focusing on internal /external later on . That's not to say he was not aware of externall and internal .

In fact Sifu Patrick Strong once told me that Bruce looked at everything he did from a ying /yang perspective.

I hope this may have helped you and I hope you understand .

Take care,

RF-

Regards.