Wing Chun compatible with tai chi?

[cha kuen]

I was just wondering if anyone thinks that wing chun is compatible with tai chi? The reason I ask is because I don't have a sifu to train wing chun with and my friend is too busy. I want to keep learning and I progress much more in the guidance of a sifu. There is a good tai chi sifu here and memorizing the movemetns of the forms is no big deal for me. Do you think it will help my wc? I know that my stance will be better and my sensitivity. I'm not looking to "combine" this style with that, I just want to keep learning. I don't really have a choice.

What do you all think? Thank you.

-cha kuen
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[YungChun]

Although I have not studied Tai-Chi I believe that the energy each art uses is quite different - WC using forward or neutral energy while Tai Chi uses various other types of non-neutral and somewhat lateral energy. If this is the case then I would tend to think that the two are not exactly what I would call compatible in theory, structure and application - not that that would stop many 'mixers' from combining the two anyway ;)

[kungfu cowboy]

Enjoy them if you like to do them.

[dezhen2001]

i would say they are different and should be kept seperate if you decide to train both... but both seem to be very good skills :)

dawood

[yuanfen]

cha kuen- wing chun and taichi involve quite differnt body mechanics. If you dont have a good wing chun sifu but have access toa good taichi sifu who knows fighting applicationa as well- seize the time.
BTW, memorizing forms is not enough. Each motion has to be understood deeply.

[reneritchie]

Joy is correct. IME WCK and Taijiquan use different "engines" to solve similar problems. If you mean compatible in terms of blending the two together, several people have done this over the years, with the results varying. Some do Wing Chun engine with Taijiquan shapes, or vice versa. Some just do WCK real slow.

If you mean can you do both at the same time, then it would depend on your individual ability to compartmentalize, and your desires in learning them. Some people, as Bo knows, can excel in multiple physical disciples, but some people, like Mike, aren't as successful when they try to expand their spheres. If you're just training for fun, you probably have no worries. If you're trying to program your reflex system for fighting, you might have less chance if you give it mixed messages.

RR

[red5angel]

There are energies and subtler things that can be used form both to enhance the other. I wouldnt recommend mixing, in the most part for the reasons stated by others above.
As is well known here I practice taichi in my spare time and it has enhanced my wingchun quite a bit but its much more complicated then just mixing them.

[reneritchie]

Hey Red,

What do you feel Taiji "enhances" in your WCK that WCK itself couldn't enhance? Or do you feel its a "shortcut" to some understandings?

RR

[diego]

To the original poster: I thought i seen that, Hawkens Cheung, does i think Wu TaiChi, along with wing chun...not sure if he connects them, but maybe you could email him from his webpage, and see if he/how he makes the two work!?.
I have no knowledge in these departments, but thought i should mention this.
peace

[Atleastimnotyou]

RR

here is what i have seen: my WC brother and i have been pretty equal skill wise. We both progressed at the same pace. Then we both started doing Chen's Tai chi also. He practices more than i do and i beleive he understands it better than me. After a while, when we do chi sau, i have notice he can make small changes quicker than i can and neutralize my energy better. His sensitivity is increasing faster than mine. He doesnt do Tai chi "moves" or anything like that in chi sau and he doesn't "mix" the two.

Or do you feel its a "shortcut" to some understandings?
possibly... or more accurately, a catalyst to understanding

[red5angel]

RR - atleastimnotyou answered it pretty well! For me personally practicing the taichi has allowed me to gain better control over my body and my energy and will continue to do so for a very long time. Its my belief at this time that taichi is more refined in the developement of this sort of thing. Its more physically demanding, or can be anyway for one thing which has helped me alot. It has helped me to focus my energy and empty my mind a little. SLT does this as well.

[yuanfen]

atleastiamnot you- there can be other logical alternative explanations.

r5a sez:For me personally practicing the taichi has allowed me to gain better control over my body and my energy and will continue to do so for a very long time. Its my belief at this time that taichi is more refined in the developement of this sort of thing

((Must be some missing links in learning wing chun- and the hypocrisy in criticizing others who do other things besides wc.))

[red5angel]

Could be yuanfen, you never know,of course hey, maybe my lack of understanding will lead me to make changes to the dummy form as well? :rolleyes:

[reneritchie]

Diego - I believe Cheung sifu learned from the Wu family.

ALMNY - Could the Chen sifu just be better at getting you to reach that understanding, or do you think the engineering of Taijiquan is better suited to "catalyzing" it?

Red - Taijiquan has the advantage of being in the hands of scholars who wrote on it for a longer period of time than WCK, meaning it has a greater "vocabulary" for explaining itself, and that that vocabulary has had time to be punched around a bit. I played Bagua when I was younger and I felt, because of the rather larger circles, it was easier to grasp the "feel" of some types of Ging, but I'm not sure WCK itself wouldn't reveal that once you gained the ability to listen to the subtleties. (Bagua had way cooler looking forms tho, and I still *really* dig a Shanghai Chen set an old friend used to do 8P)

BTW - Your dummy form has been changed as well. Rather than taking pot shots, it might be more worthwhile to discuss the relative differences, their reasons, and the risk/reward ratio (everything has one).

RR

[yuanfen]

Bewildered r5a painting by numbers sez:Could be yuanfen, you never know,of course hey, maybe my lack of understanding will lead me to make changes to the dummy form as well?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The dummy now- so soon-has the tan sao unstiffened enough to go around the jong arms? More taichi ball might be relaxing enough to do it.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by red5angel
Could be yuanfen, you never know,of course hey, maybe my lack of understanding will lead me to make changes to the dummy form as well? :rolleyes:

By all means, share your understanding of the dummy form after all your extensive experience. :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

"Red - Taijiquan has the advantage of being in the hands of scholars who wrote on it for a longer period of time than WCK, meaning it has a greater "vocabulary" for explaining itself, and that that vocabulary has had time to be punched around a bit. I played Bagua when I was younger and I felt, because of the rather larger circles, it was easier to grasp the "feel" of some types of Ging, but I'm not sure WCK itself wouldn't reveal that once you gained the ability to listen to the subtleties. (Bagua had way cooler looking forms tho, and I still *really* dig a Shanghai Chen set an old friend used to do 8P)"

thats a good way of explaining it, thanks!

As for potshots, well, seems all yuanfen is capable of now a days. Seems awefully indirect for one who has studied a direct art for so long......

[Atleastimnotyou]

ALMNY - Could the Chen sifu just be better at getting you to reach that understanding, or do you think the engineering of Taijiquan is better suited to "catalyzing" it?


hmm... i am not sure i understand. Could you rephrase it?

[Mr. Bao]

Tai Chi as a martial art discipline works very differently than wing chun kung fu. Its combative principles and techniques are opposite than wing chun. Wing chun is based on linear path and triangle structure, and tai chi is based on circular path and round structure. If you are not looking to mix apple and oranges, It can't hurt to crosstrain in any art as long you don't get bad habits. Sometimes while building good habits in one art means having bad habits in another art.

Bao

[Atleastimnotyou]

Mr Bao,
That is true. the physical movements of both arts are very different, but tai chi is about moving, changing and redirecting energy. And wing chun (atleast the way our lineage does it) is about those too (although in a more direct manner. i suppose). If you look at it from that POV. it is very good together... if you look at it from the POV of "i will use this technique here and this technique if that happens"... then it is bad

[reneritchie]

ALMNY - Sorry, what I meant was, could it just be that the Chen teacher is better at explaining some things to you than the WCK teacher?

RR

[Atleastimnotyou]

RR
No, the understanding comes from doing Yi Lu. Trying to have absolute body control, relaxation, feeling the energy. From doing that aspect of tai chi and also doing wing chun. Doing all that .... is kinda like wiping the dust off an old photo, you get to see the picture clearer.

but i have yet to fully understand all of this.

[[Censored]]

What _specifically_ do you get from doing Tai Chi forms, and not from Wing Chun forms, that improves your Wing Chun?

There must be some crucial aspect of Wing Chun, that isn't contained in any of the WC forms. Or you must be doing your Wing Chun forms incorrectly. What other rational explanation is there?

[gnugear]

Originally posted by [Censored]
What _specifically_ do you get from doing Tai Chi forms, and not from Wing Chun forms, that improves your Wing Chun?

There must be some crucial aspect of Wing Chun, that isn't contained in any of the WC forms. Or you must be doing your Wing Chun forms incorrectly. What other rational explanation is there?

I'm not trying to incorporated any tai chi "moves" into my WC, but since I've started doing Yi Lu I've noticed that my root and balance has improved.

At first it interfered with my WC, but I've been plugging away at it, and can see how it's now complimenting my training.

You can probably make all the arguments in the world for not doing it, but I know that it's starting to help me.

just my humble opinion

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,



I have been toying around with these thoughts lately and will give some opinions. They may not be worth much so!!!!


The two arts are similar in concept but total opposite in application/structure. Taiji is based on Peng, Liu, Ji & Ahn while WC is based on Loi Lao Hoi Sung Lat Sao Jik Chung. Of course there is more but that is a base to start from. Both arts if learned properly start with Jong (post) training of the body. For WC its the YJKYM and for Taiji its the Zhan Zhong Wuji or Hug the tree type of posts. While WC presses the waist forward the Taiji tilts the pelvis but opens the third point of the hip versus pressing it forward. WC uses Mai Jarn while Taiji uses Fei Jarn. All of WC movements are compact from the start but Taiji is larger circles but is indeed refined to small as one advances.


I tend to think that all MA has similar goals but one should not mess around with other arts until one is developed in one art so you can feel what the differences/similarities are. Since WC is a bit more dynamic in its training some of the softness/feeling may not be as developed as it should be. Practicing some Taiji can enhance your relaxation/posture/feeling/body usage etc.. I do believe that you should not have to do Taiji to achieve higher skill but if it works then more power to you! I know I feel some differences just from my Yi Chuan and the little bit of Chang Su Kung I do but I make sure I am not doing those as fighting arts as I do not believe in confusing the mind with excess application.


If someone did Taiji before WC they may develop more quickly as they are more relaxed and aware of their body. As Rene mentioned Taiji has more educated people in its past preserving its knoweldge and the art seems to draw a very earthy more tolerable group of people from WC which is a nice change from some of the WC people out there I have met. Part of that is probally because they are doing it for health and not fighting.

Oh well, enough babbling. Both are cool and worth checking out. Investigating or learning a bit about another art can often help you see things that are right in front of you just from a different point of view which is very nice when feeling a bit stale with ones progress or training. In the end I think it would be real difficult to defend yourself with Taiji but it all depends on what you like, what has the best quality of instruction near you and what fits your body best.


Regards,

[Atleastimnotyou]

[censored]
WC isn't missing anything, which is what i have always been saying. Tai chi doesn't add anything that wing chun is missing. i have already said what i get from Tai chi.

[red5angel]

Censored - Look at it this way, when I ran cross country, you could go out and run and run and be really good at it. For some people it was all they needed and they were good with just running. Others chose to supplement their running with weight training, it seemed to help them a little. Others did hill workouts or sprint workouts for various reasons. All of these different things got their times up.
I found that the younger runners coming into our team could catch up faster by using the weights etc to supplement their training.
Same idea, doing taichi allows the body to catch on to some underlying principles that it shares with wingchun. You can get the same thing from doing wingchun, and for some people its all they need. The taichi just gives you a jump start and helps to keep you ahead of the game.

[[Censored]]

Atleastimnotyou, I am asking you for specifics. Not "body control" and "feeling energy". You don't owe me an explanation but I would hope you know exactly what you gain--and exactly what you lose--by training this way.

If it is all benefit and no cost, than why didn't we hear about how Yip Man loved doing Tai Chi?

[yuanfen]

r5a sez-Seems awefully indirect for one who has studied a direct art for so long......
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If one looks at past posts I have said in effect that

1. R5's knowledge of wc is inversely related to his posting frequency. Newbies should not be expected to know much and should be helped- but combine ignorance with arrogance and absence of listening-there is a problem on communication among other things.


2. Criticising "impure" wing chun and then importing the taichi ball
and taichi work to plug in missing gaps is sheer hypocrisy.(Not a brief against taichi but is a brief on hypocrisy)

3. Describing and overgeneralizing about his sampling of the martial arts world combines problems of veracity with problems
of sampling, observation, accuracy and judgement.

4. Add to this the simply silly things about many motions including the sprawl. Characterizing wing chun as a direct art- there is more to the art that he knows zilch about.

5. r5' frequent and long winded posts are a form of trolling and trolling short(RH) or long(R5) inhibits serious sustained discussion of wing chun. He finds comfort in RH's encouragement.

6. Except for some supporting snips from some of CarlD's students
I dont see where he has been able to maintain a serious discussion with very many people.

7. The best thing for him within his lineage is to go to SF rather than learning tai chi in his trips to Cleveland and take some lessons from Ken Chung.Go west young man.

Pretty direct critiques if you follow the trail- I would say.
(And the critique is of r5 and not ken Chung's line in any way)

[Atleastimnotyou]

Censored
I thought body control and energy were specifics... but i guess sensitivity is another. What do i loose? nothing major... time perhaps.
Why didn't YM do tai chi?....i dont know, personal preference i suppose... why did he smoke so much D@mn opium... preference i suppose.

Joy,
2. Criticising "impure" wing chun and then importing the taichi ball
and taichi work to plug in missing gaps is sheer hypocrisy.(Not a brief against taichi but is a brief on hypocrisy)

this one can be discarded right off the bat... the opposite of that was always said.

[anerlich]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
2. Criticising "impure" wing chun and then importing the taichi ball
and taichi work to plug in missing gaps is sheer hypocrisy.(Not a brief against taichi but is a brief on hypocrisy)

this one can be discarded right off the bat... the opposite of that was always said. [/B]

The particular problem here is that certain individuals claim that their "integration" of another art into Wing Chun is to "enhance" the practice of WC, but others who do similar things are "plugging holes because their understanding of WC is incomplete".

That is hypocrisy, and arrogance. And pretty stupid if you've never seen what those being scorned have actually achieved.

If *you* and r5a aren't doing that, that's fine. But if you were, don't act all surprised and hurt.

[cha kuen]

Wow thank for all the replies guys! Let me state again that I do not have intentions of combining this style or any of that nonsense.

I simply have no where to learn wing chun and I don't want to stop learning chinese martial arts. I do feel that it will improve my root, sensitivity and getting me to relax more. :D


-cha kuen

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[Atleastimnotyou]

Anerlich
The difference here is this: everyone that does WC and Bjj do bjj so they can use bjj in a fight... some of us do WC and Tai chi... but we don't do Taichi so we can use it in a fight....That difference right there makes all the difference...

[TaoBoy]

Tai Chi teaches how to use energy, balance and posture effectively and efficiently. For that reason it is an asset to any martial artist.

[gnugear]

Originally posted by TaoBoy
Tai Chi teaches how to use energy, balance and posture effectively and efficiently. For that reason it is an asset to any martial artist.

well said

[anerlich]

everyone that does WC and Bjj do bjj so they can use bjj in a fight... some of us do WC and Tai chi... but we don't do Taichi so we can use it in a fight....That difference right there makes all the difference...

You make a lot of unsupported and arrogant assumptions about "everyone"'s motivations, but then I guess if you want to train something you can't or won't use in a fight, that's up to you.

"all the difference" appears miniscule to me.

FWIW, I studied taiji for about as long as you've done WC, and about five times as long as r5a has been training with Carl. I don't have a problem with taiji or cross training, only the linguistic contortions and self-delusion some go through to justify their training in it, while at the same time trying to put down the legitimate crosstraining efforts of others.

[AndrewS]

After all there's nothing you can learn about energy, balance, and posture in the grappling arts. . .

That being said, my take is, that of the neijia, taiji is probably one of the better arts to crosstrain in because it is the least similar to Wing Chun.

Later,

Andrew

[Atleastimnotyou]

anerlich, i explained why i do wing chun and tai chi, and if you read my post accurately then you would understand. I don't expect you all to understand how tai chi relates to wing chun, because when i explain it, i explain it with the way we do wing chun in mind. Which is very different from how you all do wing chun. since you we think of wing chun in different ways, of course we don't agree. Its like trying to talk about the color green when we have different ideas of what green is.

Same way with you AndrewS, we do wing chun differently so of course your going to say wing chun and tai chi are opposites.

"After all there's nothing you can learn about energy, balance, and posture in the grappling arts. . ."

what do you mean by energy? do you mean ATP and Carbohydrates... cuz grappling has that type... but it's not what i was talking about.

[red5angel]

anerlich, shouldnt you be rolling around on a mat somewhere right now? It was a good attempt anyway, keep trying. I know you know what we mean, your secret is safe with me ;)

AndrewS - your right, grappling has energy, intent and all that good stuff, but it doesnt compliment wingchun. The very basis is different. Utlimately, neither is necessary for good wingchun, but some of it will take you to the next level if understood and done properly.
.

[[Censored]]

What do i loose? nothing major... time perhaps.
Why didn't YM do tai chi?....i dont know, personal preference i suppose... why did he smoke so much D@mn opium... preference i suppose.


LOL, fair enough. So I guess the only issue (or non-issue, depending on your priorities) is the face of the ancestors.

[AndrewS]

Atleast,

You can't really speak with any authority about my understanding of Wing Chun and it's differences from yours as you don't have my understanding of Wing Chun- I've shared very little of it with you, and am not terribly interested in sharing more.

I read your post and can understand the cross-training benefits you can derive from working some Chen taiji, believe it or not. There are significant mechanical and strategic differences between taiji and Wing Chun. Cross-training in Wing Chun will therefore cause less confusion in motor learning than say, Xing Yi which does very similar things to some of Wing Chun with a different engine and some lovely subtle differences. Learning to evolve power by working on 'Buddha's Warrior Attendant' is not going to screw up your straight punch like spending a bunch of time on beng chuan will early on in your training.

'Energy' and grappling? By 'energy', I mean the catchall phrase used by the semantically unclear and mystically inclined to describe certain useful fighting attributes derived from relaxed body use of mechanically advantageous body connections focused by an aware mind perceiving and moving in accordance with a multitude of stimuli from mechanical force to 'emotional content'.

Later,

Andrew

[reneritchie]

People, please stop trying to pollute the minds of r5a, ALMNY, and the like with your crazy, crazy thoughts.

r5a, ALMNY, you guys are *exactly*, 100% correct in all your ideas and understanding of WCK. Please don't change a thing, especially if you're even remotely considering becoming a mugger in my part of the world.

You go guys!

[fa_jing]

I may take up Tai Chi soon as a low-impact side interest, and to take advantage of the opportunity to study with a great teacher. But in response to these supposed benefits to the Wing Chun rooting and horse from the study of Tai Chi, I don't see why. AFAIK, the Tai Chi horse of any branch of Tai Chi is fundamentally different from the Wing Chun horse. And, it is also applied in a fundamentally different manner. Wing Chun requires stepping and punching with the whole body as a unit, while Tai Chi has a mobile hip structure with relation to the feet. So you might move your hips forward in Tai Chi and not even step. This seems very different to me. Sorry if I'm not explaining myself clearly. Sure it's additional leg exercise, so is leg press or standing in a low horse stance from any style. I took 6 months of Northern Mantis, it was an advantage - but not in terms of learning and developiong Wing Chun mechanics, just that I felt the 18 lohan exercises were good for overall body conditioning of the type usefull in Wing Chun, to develop supple strength, increase flexibility, and exercise supporting muscle groups in broad swaths across the body. This is not addressed to all, just those that claimed Tai Chi helped with the WC horse.

[Atleastimnotyou]

fajing, i posted how i thought tai chi helped MY wing chun,,, and you just posted how Mantis helped yours.

[red5angel]

RR - its about time you came to your senses!!!! ;)

Fa_jing - The Taichi I practice helps my wingchun in a lot of ways, not just in the stance, actually most of the time if I want to work on the stance I do the stance!

[planetwc]

Red5,

1. Have you ever trained in BJJ? If NOT, how can you make such uninformed claims regarding what it does or does not have?

2. How is it that folks with more experience in both WC and BJJ say it IS complementary? Folks like Kevin Chan of Kamon Wing Chun and of course Andrew Nerlich state otherwise--could it be that they have *gasp* actually done both?

Crosstraining is crosstraining. Quit parsing and splitting hairs. If someone wants to crosstrain be it in Taiji, Muay Thai, Xingyi or BJJ, more power to them. One doesn't need to rationalize or look down on someone who does. It is a personal choice. More power to them and to you for your taiji practice. Nuff said.


Originally posted by red5angel


AndrewS - your right, grappling has energy, intent and all that good stuff, but it doesnt compliment wingchun. The very basis is different. Utlimately, neither is necessary for good wingchun, but some of it will take you to the next level if understood and done properly.
.

[anerlich]

anerlich, shouldnt you be rolling around on a mat somewhere right now? It was a good attempt anyway, keep trying. I know you know what we mean, your secret is safe with me

The crucial element for skill in BJJ is hours on the mat, so the answer to your first question is yes.

"I know you know what we mean" - I know what you mean all right, as I said to your si-hing ALINY (is he lucky or what?) there's nothing wrong with crosstraining with taiji or anything else. But I think your (and his) opinions regarding what other people do regarding crosstraining are incorrect (unsurprising as they come from a base of ignorance), arrogant, and self-delusional.

"your secret is safe with me" - whoopee doo. What secret is that?


Crosstraining is crosstraining. Quit parsing and splitting hairs. If someone wants to crosstrain be it in Taiji, Muay Thai, Xingyi or BJJ, more power to them. One doesn't need to rationalize or look down on someone who does. It is a personal choice. More power to them and to you for your taiji practice. Nuff said.

Amen to that.

[dezhen2001]

if u wanna train BJJ or Taijiquan or anything, then why does it have to be to 'enhance' or 'fill gaps' in your wing chun? Why can't u just train?

dawood

[wingchunalex]

yes they work together. tai chi teaches you to relax and stay relaxed mentally also during confrontation. it helps keep your wing chun soft and flowing. i've only seen good things come from doing tai chi and wing chun. with wing chun as one's main art tai chi is ince to accentuate it. it terms of using tai chi in application or combining the actual techniques of the style is not a great idea. but the principles of relaxed mind and body that are more directly cultivated in tai chi help with wing chun.

[anerlich]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
if u wanna train BJJ or Taijiquan or anything, then why does it have to be to 'enhance' or 'fill gaps' in your wing chun? Why can't u just train?

dawood

No reason I can think of, unless your goal is to convince others (qctually, yourself) that your training methods are superior to anybody else's.

[anerlich]

'Energy' and grappling? By 'energy', I mean the catchall phrase used by the semantically unclear and mystically inclined to describe certain useful fighting attributes derived from relaxed body use of mechanically advantageous body connections focused by an aware mind perceiving and moving in accordance with a multitude of stimuli from mechanical force to 'emotional content'.

Mate, that was beautiful ... can I borrow it next time I want to annoy some granola eater?

[AndrewS]

Hey Andy,

help yourself. I *love* to watch the patchouli-reeking b*st*rds squirm.

Later,

Andrew

[Miles Teg]

This is an interesting topic for me as Im stuck in Japan with no WC near by. Of course I practice a little on my own, but at the moment Im trying to decide whether to go to a MMA gym a few nights a week or do some Tai Chi.
Im currently doing Judo once a week at the moment which was always the last martial art that I ever wanted to do, but now I find it very cool. I mean it doesnt matter what M.A you do, if someone smaller than you has the ability to throw you around like a rag doll, there is something to learn. Also the ground techniques are suprisingly effective.

I thought MMA training would incorporate more of a combination of strikes and grappling thats why I was interested. Tai CHi looks like it can benefit WC for the reasons that everyboddy has said.

As my W.C type is not very physical (i.e no exercise, sparring etc just chi sau and the form), it has not helped me get fit or lose weight in anyway.

I am 20 kgs over weight (since marrying my wife). So I think its about time that I got off my a$$ and did something a little more physical. Therefore I think MMA would be good.

[aelward]

I've mentioned this story before, might as well do it again.

I've touched hands/rolled with four people who I felt were light years ahead of everyone else (of course, there are more than 4, I'm just talking about personal experience), even though the way the approached their chi sao was very different. One of those people, a si-hing at my school in Taipei, started in Wing Chun and later went to Chen Taiji because he felt Wing Chun was missing something. Finding that CTJ didn't have what he was looking for, he came back to WC. However, from what I've heard from my other si-hings, his hands improved dramatically. His ability to "listen" had reached a new level, and he could always control the tempo of a chi sao encounter. By the time I got to Taipei, he was by far the best chi sao practitioner in my school.

Now personally, I also practice Yang Taiji (108 and 24, going on 4 years), as well as Liu He Ba Fa (water boxing, going on 6 months). However, I do it out of blind faith that it will help my health. My biggest problem is that I have a hard time taking the WC out of of me, so I wonder how much is help is it providing in terms of health benefits!

[Hendrik]

I have a dream tonite.

It is about a sad stories about a style

Years ago, some how, some one decides to get rid of the Ying Yang Noi Lien and Oui Lien ....circle ......

Years later, Some one goes to Chen TaiJi to learn the reel silk .....
Some one goes to Yi Chuan and learn how to stand.....

Not to realized that thier little set from the ancestors has the complete essence of the neccessary training....

Then, these people starts import the reel silk, they import the taichi. They import the nail and hammer fajing from Yau's Yee Chuan's book ( may be page 47 ?) They import and keep import....

What is next?
They abandon the coordination of spine movements of open and closing...... / breathing... /medirian path.... /intention focusing.......

They stand still like a wooden dummy of wooden dummy aslie of the Ledgendary Shao Lin Temple. ...Clamping can with knees and keeping elbow stuck ........Nothing move but only hand waving.
They belive that can bring them magic power. They claim that is from the Shao Lin Wooden dummy aslie, the original teaching...

Sure, it is exactly identical to the original method of the woodern dummy of the Shao Lin movies--- an original Wooden dummy method if anyone wants to turn into a wooden dummy.

Somedays,
when they decide not to be a wooden dummy.
God's knows which styles these people is going to study to import those missing pieces back into thier set.

On one hand they praised they grandmasters and style on how superior their art. But then, on the other hand they know, deep inside it is hollow---- emptiness... nothing to hold on.....no direction to know where one is.....


I heard the ancestors of that particular style are crying sadly tonite in my dream. They are Asking ----

When will all these people focus into themself and found what they missed instead of seeking outward?

....................................


Some one once post that Hendrik must has no fun in live.....
I guess He might be right. I guess I must have dream too much because I have no fun in live.... LOL

A dream is just a dream why take it seriously?
I admit I am just dreaming.
don't take it seriously. keep dreaming. Good night.
:D

[Miles Teg]

‚a‚•‚”�@Hendrik.....
Thats how all martial arts were developed. If you look at the biographies of many famous Chinese martial artists you will see that they did many different martial arts. Sometimes they make a new style or add to another one. W.C is a combination of different M.As. If you dont agree then find out how we have the pole in our system. Some of the basic principles of Tai Chi and W.C are too similar for there to not be a connection between them.

Why must we think of W.C as an innocent wife that we are cheating on if we train in another style? Especially when you think about how experieced our Kung Fu ancestors were before they developed a style. I reckon the masters of the old days played around with everything they could.

Whats wrong with you creating a whole new system fighting once you have a firm grounding in W.C? Why was it OK for your kung fu great great great grandfather to do it and not ok for you to do it?

[Hendrik]

MT,

You know I am just posting about my dream.

There are alots of similarities between Hsu Chi and Yim Wing Chun.

1, they are both Chinese
2, They are both Fujianese.


On the other hand, since I love to dream alots. I think I am not cheating my girl friend when i dream about having a date with HSu Chi. Sorry, I didn't know my girl friend is at my home while I am sleeping and dreaming.

Hey men, I am just joking here. have some humor!:D

[Miles Teg]

Sorry Hendrik
I misunderstood your post, I thought it was a `why is Wing Chun not enough?!` type post.

I thought you were half joking and half serious.

Sense of humour............Ive heard it goes down well with the ladies, maybe Ill give it some practice, Ill fit it in after my daily SNT.

[AndrewS]

Hey Hendrick,

some people like McDonalds. Some people need to go eat a sh*tty McDonalds burger before they realize that was a five course meal with lovely cut of aged Black Angus they were getting at home.

Later,

Andrew

[yuanfen]

Miles Teg sez:Sometimes they make a new style or add to another one. W.C is a combination of different M.As. If you dont agree then find out how we have the pole in our system. Some of the basic principles of Tai Chi and W.C are too similar for there to not be a connection between them
------------------------------------------------------
Sure WC evolved from different syntheses...but once the art jelled- one can benefit by understanding it in depth
as an integrated system.
WC changed the use of the pole rather than the other way around. Ots an enhancement in bringing out wc principles..
TaiChi and WC "too similar"? I beg to disagree.
----------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- I have similar dreams---but I dream in Bengali!

[yuanfen]

AIMNY: Why didn't YM do tai chi?....i dont know, personal preference i suppose... why did he smoke so much D@mn opium... preference i suppose
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt that Kenneth Cheung would refer much to Yip Man's personal habits.

[Atleastimnotyou]

yaunfen "sez": "I doubt that Kenneth Cheung would refer much to Yip Man's personal habits"

...and Ken Chung wouldn't post on a kung fu forum, he'd be practicing. Now if i can only get myself to do that....
Maybe if i repeat: WWKD? (What Would Ken Do?)

[teazer]

Originally posted by Hendrik
I have a dream tonite.

You have very informative dreams, Hendrik.
Perhaps because the movements were small, people thought they were not there? Then they need to find an alternative for that function that is taught more obviously.
Still, if I were looking for a stand-in, Chen TC & Yi Chuan wouldn't be as bad as spinning kicks from a mcdojo!!

[red5angel]

Planetwc, I never made any claims as to what bjj does or does not have, As for those who make claim they are complimentary, I have said it already, lack of understanding.
as for splitting hairs, there is a difference in what is being discussed.......

dezhen, no reason at all.

[reneritchie]

Hendrik, Joy - I dream in Canadian. Try that sometime!

Hendrik - That's interesting. We begin with the Ngoi/Noi Liem cycles and it does have a feeling to it as you describe. Likewise, the twisting and the 'snake' movements direct that feeling... I'm not big on the "neijia" arts, but being we're all humans of similar configuration, and that MA has similar goals... Good food for thought!

PlanetWC, AndrewS, Anerlich - The swines are not amused by your tossing pearls at them.

I wonder, though, could BJJ, well taught, possibly be *more* compatible than TJQ. It follows many core WCK principles (Sung, Yao, Mai Jarn, Yee Boon Pui Gong, etc.) and elaborates upon them in ways beyond standard WCK practice (the prone platform allowing the development of Chi concepts with hips, shins, feet, backs, etc.) Sort of like having a sports car and a power boat. TJQ, on the other hand, uses a fundementally different engine for a fundementally similar platform, and violates WCK principles (Mai Jarn, Kim Sut, etc.) while doing so. Sort of like having two sports cars. You can't drive them both at once.

But what do I know? Less and less as time goes by...

RR

[yuanfen]

Hendrik, Joy - I dream in Canadian. Try that sometime!(Rene)
((Have tried it once, but the okey dokey gears got in the way))

PlanetWC, AndrewS, Anerlich - The swines are not amused by your tossing pearls at them.

((Simulated pearls are worth a try.)))

'snake' movements direct that feeling...

((the way of kundalini)))

But what do I know? Less and less as time goes by...

((Rene- getting to be a Taoist in your old age-but be careful of
non flushing transformation chambers))

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by yuanfen

Hendrik- I have similar dreams---but I dream in Bengali!



Dream is universal ! LOL

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by reneritchie


Hendrik - That's interesting. We begin with the Ngoi/Noi Liem cycles and it does have a feeling to it as you describe. Likewise, the twisting and the 'snake' movements direct that feeling... I'm not big on the "neijia" arts, but being we're all humans of similar configuration, and that MA has similar goals... Good food for thought!


RR


RR,
LOL.

See I told you so in my DREAM.

How the heck those claim to be the oldest..... without these stuffs. and where can you find this stuffs from Shao Lin?


An " the oldest WCK/ZEN....master question me in the post a few weeks ago, that my Yik Kam / ERMEI 12 Zhuang/ White Crane Eng Chun....SLT lineage has a flaw that can't explain where the Chi Sau was developed.........

Since they don't have the cycles.....Certainly they don't know.

Look it up in the Ermei 12 Zhuang Under.... opps I forget my dream.
And you don't need those Iron plating hands... :D


Dreaming I must be ............Keep Dreaming!:D

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by yuanfen

'snake' movements direct that feeling...

((the way of kundalini)))



Joy,

Who Said the Emei doesn't have the kundalini part beside the TCM and daoism? They practice esoteric Buddhism LOL.
See not Chan which deal only with the lotus of Thousand pedals......

To the worst, trying to plating the lotus with iron this and iron that. That makes dead lotus.


Who said the SLT's stay only in the Mai Jang and clam knees. No one asked thus no one will response....

When the spine is rigitly straight the mind is rigid -- one turns into a wooden dummy.




Ok I get back to my dream of Hsu Chi doing Kundalini open her root and heart Chakras with the breath of fire. Spiralling, GRinding....Open and close. spiralling Open and close.....Got it? LOL LOL

Some Got it some will be confused and lost. LOL
Hey not about HsuChi and her trantric yoga. Don't think bad! :cool::D

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou

Maybe if i repeat: WWKD? (What Would Ken Do?)

LOL! We're all constantly asking that question. I'll post any insights that I develop. :D

[AndrewS]

Hey Rene,

'False pearls before true swine'- a comment on lecturing medical students by one of my more favorite professors.

I used to keep boas and pythons as pets- the last six months, on my good days when nothing is tweaked out, and I've gotten to the right place, I've started to feel as if I have one living inside me. Unfortunately it seems to be a rather clumsy animal. ;-)

On the grappling thing- mat work definitely teaches a much softer torso than standing work, and as such seems to be superb cross-training for Wing Chun or Taiji. The whole idea of 'frame' dealt with in BJJ and used in most good mat work is a really nice look at local linkage (and is the place it makes the most sense to me). Personally, I'm still making decisions about the 'best' grappling art to cross-train in. Once my work schedule opens up, I intend to get out and look around for a school some more. Much as I loved the little bit I did with Gokor and Gene, the highly positional approach of Rickson, continuous flowing submission of the Machados are both really interesting, and I'm **** curious about the RAW gym. . . As I get older and realize that NHB glory is not in the cards for me, I think more about what package I'm putting together and why I train, and I want to pick my cross-training to work towards that goal.

Later,

Andrew

[reneritchie]

Hey Andrew,

BJJ seems to use a curious blend of local and whole body power, as does WCK, and to link and unlink to control and avoid being controlled as well. I've seen some do it like its a strong man contest, but also a few do it eyes close, super relaxed, and super effortless (and their opponents didn't seem able to stop them).

Everything I've read/seen on Rickson sounds/looks impressive, especially when it comes from super competitive folk like Dave Camarillo. Some of it sounds very WCKish as well - 'shutting down someones game completely', as he seems able to do, appears to involve some form of interception (positionally preventing them from engaging their offense) and sinking (dis-aligning them to prevent them from engaging their defense). He seems to stick to basics, to simple geometry and concepts of base/balance/structure, rather than just scads of (sometimes fancy) techniques, and also seems to have a very laid out curriculum, not the less formal method of others. I doubt he'll ever be in my neck of the woods, but if you ever check him out, please let me know what you think. (Same if you go train with the RAW/Quest/Hammer folks ;)

RR

[AndrewS]

Hey Rene,

the lines I've heard over and over again on Rickson is 'soft', 'like a ghost', 'I felt nothing', this from big, seriously competetive grapplers.

His strategy seems extremely practical, too- much more in line with Wing Chun than those folks who care less about position, flow, and pick stuff from anywhere, which seems a great strategy for sport grappling, a good one for NHB, and freakin' dangerous in the street.

Sifu Emin has a some **** fine Greco skills, which seems another great approach and useful cross-training which has served him well.

I haven't heard the skinny on the RAW gym from anyone I know out here, but Chiparelli is supposed to be scary good.

Later,

Andrew

[teazer]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Look it up in the Ermei 12 Zhuang Under.... opps I forget my dream.

Must've been another Stranger from Porlock;)

[[Censored]]

Whats wrong with you creating a whole new system fighting once you have a firm grounding in W.C? Why was it OK for your kung fu great great great grandfather to do it and not ok for you to do it?

What's wrong with running an 8-minute mile? Nothing.

Actually there is a guy in my neighborhood who does just that, wearing tights, and an oversized flag as a cape. It's just a harmless "individual expression".

Everybody wants to be like Sun Lu Tang.
But I think nobody wants to work like Sun Lu Tang.

[anerlich]

Actually there is a guy in my neighborhood who does just that, wearing tights, and an oversized flag as a cape. It's just a harmless "individual expression".

There's a guy I see in Sydney running through the city some mornings, lycra bodysuit, wraparound shades, and weird shoes with springs on the bottom like car suspension leaf springs. The first time I saw him I thought I was tripping.

Still, the world would be pretty boring without the occasional eccentric ...

as it would if no one crosstrained :cool:

[teazer]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Look it up in the Ermei 12 Zhuang

Hendrik etal, perhaps you could help out here. Not knowing more than a hint of Chinese and not having found anything mentioned on the subject online, my understanding of the 12 zhuang is understandably limited to your posts. And I must admit to some considerable confusion!!
There was the picture you posted (& was translated by a helpful person). Gave a bunch of opposites. You've alluded to it being associated with core principles of wing chun. The title of the book you gave implies it was a chi gung method & there was some similarity to how you've said the SLT stance should be performed.
Ok so far?
So, I'm looking for another hint! Very roughly, if someone were to be practicing the 12 Z, how could you tell? For instance, would it look like a specific series of movements or stances, is it either a complete method of fighting, health, both? Is it more of a principal thing like eg yin/yang, 5 elements, Buddhist laws which can be applied to any situation?
That kind of thing.
Thanks

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by teazer



So, I'm looking for another hint! Very roughly, if someone were to be practicing the 12 Z, how could you tell? For instance, would it look like a specific series of movements or stances, is it either a complete method of fighting, health, both? Is it more of a principal thing like eg yin/yang, 5 elements, Buddhist laws which can be applied to any situation?
That kind of thing.
Thanks


If two people doing SLT how could you tell if one has internal components and one doesn't?


There is no Buddhist law.
There is only Buddhist model and Daoist model to model the "reality".
When one "see" the "reality" models are no longer needed.

It is about a journey inward not about an answer. That is the difficult part.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by teazer


my understanding of the 12 zhuang is understandably limited to your posts. And I must admit to some considerable confusion!!



Who will not? 12 zhuang is not everyone's pice of cake.
It tooks alots people for decades to investigate it.


There was the picture you posted (& was translated by a helpful person)


It is a summary of a system.


Gave a bunch of opposites. You've alluded to it being associated with core principles of wing chun.


Reality is what has indeed exist. I just report what has exist.




The title of the book you gave implies it was a chi gung method & there was some similarity to how you've said the SLT stance should be performed.


The title of the book is about Emei 12zhuang.

it was catagorized by Qi Gong Healing under present day catagory.
Qi Gong is a term the chinese use in the past 100year or so. It is a new term after SLT was invented.

I don't said how should the SLT stance should be performed.
It was recorded in Yik Kam lineage that that is what it is.

It is better to find it out for yourself if that is accord to your lineage.

[/B]

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Hendrik,



A few thoughts are bouncing thru my head and a question has come up for you?

Seeing how most Chinese MA are Chi Kung/Spiritual based and the mechanics of the WC body are very similar to most of the internal arts I am starting to believe that perhaps the orignal SLT had these concepts built into it. Now, with that in mind, I would like to ask you this question?

If the art was orignally SLT, and then broken down/modified into the three fist sets by Wong Wah Bo, why do you feel he did not preserve these internal teachings as part of his WC expression? He must have had this knowledge! Could it be that his WC was focusing on the the root boxing versus the spiritual? What are your thoughts?


:confused:


Regards,

[joy chaudhuri]

Cant answer for Hendrik. Internal?<sigh> Its there its there in wc.
Dont care to argue about it.... because we go over same old sameold definitional/word battles. Great kung fu properly taught and faithfully practiced will have both elements synthesized---though the order in the curriculum of learning may vary from art to art.

[reneritchie]

Seeing how most Chinese MA are Chi Kung/Spiritual based

I think they were mostly based on fighting originally. Fighting to defend against wild animals, bandits, and the like. Fighting between two armed forces. Fighting in duels of various kinds.

During periods of relative peace (Sung and Ming in recent times), time and environment allowed other factors to weigh in, and individuals decided to focus on beauty or health or other things. During periods of relative strife (Yuan and Qing in recent times) the focus on fighting became important again.

Wong Wah-Bo was a Martial Lead, traditionally a leadership position aboard the Red Junks. He was active during a very turbulant time, and took part in the Red Turban rebellion in Foshan under Lee Man-Mao. When he taught in Foshan, it was following the Opera's destruction under Yip Ming-Chan. It's not hard to imagine his focus was fighting during this period.

While, in North America, during modern times, its nice to sit and worry about how "complete" or "original" a system is, whether it contains profound Emei or Shaolin spirituality or Nei Gung systems (Hendrik is correct in that Hei Gung is a "newer" thing), these kinds of systems likely prospered in peace and safety, the pet projects of individuals who had the luxury of time to carefully elaborate and systemetize what previous people had used to fight for their very lives.

As Hendrik also pointed out, Emei Shi Er Zhuang is very old - much older than WCK. I'm not sure how fast its depths can be probed or its subtleties mastered, but even if he's correct that it is the other major component alongside Fujian White Crane that led to the development of Siu Lien Tao, during the formation of Wing Chun Kuen on the Red Junks, not everyone may have had the time or the interest to probe those aspects.

RR

[old jong]

The internal thing is a good commercial trap to get all those hippies in martial arts schools....And charge extra for it!
Any physical actions need the internal and the external in order to be possible.Sumo wrestlers use the internal even if they never heard about the term.Tai Chi uses external like it or not.Internal is using the physical force you have in the most economical and effective way possible.
We live in the real world.Not in some star war scenario!
Also, spirituality is another subject.
Real spirituality can be found as much in a boxing club as in any church.The garbage man you see on your street could be more spiritual than the Dalai Lama but nobody would ask him about his wisdom.Beware of school that promote spirituality as much as used cars salesmen!

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Rene & Joy,


Thanks for the insights. I started to think about the body and how other arts from around the same period include the internal practice. There is a reason that all the classics say Tuck the pelvis, straighten the spine, round the back & hollow the chest. Even from the beginning of time when Da Mo was supposed to have taught the 18 Lohan he also taught the Muscle Tendon Change and Bone Marrow Washing to go along with that. Why would WWB's WC's body follow the same structural mechanics but not have the internal teaching? The answer has to be he didnt focus on it. South Mantis, White Eyebrow, White Crane etc. all from the south and all pretty young preserve those teachings and were developed during troubled times? Oh well, no big deal as I believe WWB's teaching is amazing and practical but these are some things that have been going thru my little brain!


Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Old Jong,


I have to agree and disagree with you. While you are correct that you cannot be one without the other one has to be properly aligned internally to have any power when issuing or recieving force but just because someone uses physical force economically it does not make it internal. Someone can use large swinging action and still have solid internal alignments for their methods. When we speak of internal we can talk about Hay (chi) as well as structure. That is the topic of my discussion, and if you believe in it or not, one cannot deny that it is a real thing and not something from a Star Wars movie. Simplicity is a combat principle for fighting and not just an internal component IMO.


Just my thoughts.

[teazer]

Originally posted by Hendrik
It is about a journey inward not about an answer. That is the difficult part.

ain't that the truth. Thanks for sharing though. I'll keep pondering. Your answers ask good questions and for this that's probably better than answers, though it brings to mind a story of the guy hanging off the side of a cliff - on calling for help he hear's a booming voice from the sky saying "this is God. Let go and all will be well". A short pause then he calls out -
"is there any body else up there!?"

[cha kuen]

Old Jong,

I agree about spirituality. It comes from within and it doesn't matter if you sit in your backyard or go to some natural setting in China. The light comes from within and is about being aware and living in the present.

Not so easy.


-cha kuen
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25

[[Censored]]

I think they were mostly based on fighting originally. Fighting to defend against wild animals, bandits, and the like.

We are attacked every day by germs, ignorance, and bad intentions. I don't think this is a new development. ;)

I'm not sure how fast its depths can be probed or its subtleties mastered, but even if he's correct that it is the other major component alongside Fujian White Crane that led to the development of Siu Lien Tao, during the formation of Wing Chun Kuen on the Red Junks, not everyone may have had the time or the interest to probe those aspects.

What would you say to someone who wants to learn WC but doesn't have enough time or interest for "elbows in"? To put it differently, would you call "elbows in" a mere "aspect" of WC? Or is it something so fundamental that if you remove it, everything else falls apart?

The internal thing is a good commercial trap to get all those hippies in martial arts schools....And charge extra for it!

Does this sound familiar?

* Meet somebody with high level of ability
* Hear them talk about "internal"
* Theorize the secret of their ability is "internal"
* Observe your own ability is higher then some others
* Conclude you must therefore have "internal"
* Know your ability is limited to structure and sensitivity
* Conclude "internal" is structure and sensitivity
* Classify yourself as "internal martial artist" and lecture others about the true meaning of "internal"

This is not the path of a sane person. Here comes the funny part:

* Dismiss the original "internal" ability as a fairytale
* Unable to get the original "internal" ability? :)

Here is the sad and tragic part:

* Everyody believes you and kung fu is lost :(

[reneritchie]

We are attacked every day by germs, ignorance, and bad intentions. I don't think this is a new development.

Didn't that all start in the 60s??


To put it differently, would you call "elbows in" a mere "aspect" of WC? Or is it something so fundamental that if you remove it, everything else falls apart?

Apples and orchards.

RR

[[Censored]]

Apples and orchards.

Hendrik's statements are addressing the core of SLT and IMO the core of Wing Chun. Compared to these issues, I think "elbows in" is a trivial detail.

[teazer]

[What would you say to someone who wants to learn WC but doesn't have enough time or interest for "elbows in"? To put it differently, would you call "elbows in" a mere "aspect" of WC? Or is it something so fundamental that if you remove it, everything else falls apart?

Never let it be said even the most trivial detail goes unnoticed! IMO for all but the rarest occasions, "elbows down" with good sensitivitiy & a little more body movement would be a reasonable option for "elbows ins". If someone had some funky arm issue that require elbows to be someplace stranger than that, they could still conform to the principal by bringing their arm as close as possible & making up for it with other measures. So long as they recognize the consequences of leaving their elbow out there, more power to them.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello Hendrik,

Now, with that in mind, I would like to ask you this question?

If the art was orignally SLT, and then broken down/modified into the three fist sets by Wong Wah Bo, why do you feel he did not preserve these internal teachings as part of his WC expression? He must have had this knowledge! Could it be that his WC was focusing on the the root boxing versus the spiritual? What are your thoughts?


:confused:


Regards,

I think :


1, Somethings had happen in 1850's era.
The opera was destroy and the TaiPing battle were lost.
So, Alots of good WCK people certainly Sacrified and things changed.

2, That is a time of trubulance, within the siheng-Dai of Wong Wah bo or his students must have the art.
since they are classical chinese, They will only teach to the inner family.
But then, within the inner family, how many really is literated and have the insigth ?
expecially in the time of big depression that China lost in opium war and chinese are confused about their art themself;, how many will seriously preserve or investigate the art, beside the one who really know what happen and have deep belive in Buddhism.

3, After the 1850 wars era, my sifu has told me Fire arms were popular. Martial art were no longer the greatest. At least, in the curriculam of the Cho family martial art school while my sifu is in China. Hand Gun were practiced.

4, How many real buddhist are there? not too many. Every one will claim shaolin this shaolin that as today. Chan or Zen this Zen that but how many really real and know ? not to mention master the buddhism teaching ?


5, the term SLT itself indicate it is more then just Kuen or martial art. See, the ancestor didn't call it SLT Kuen. but just SLT.
and the core of WCK is SLT.. and the naming of SLT is close to 12 Zhuang.
See, 12 Zhuang has the martial capabilities but it is more then fighting....

6, check from any lineage, how many of the followers heard about Surangama sutra, the Ganges mahamudra, TCM, Daoist meditation training..Kundalini..... Without those back ground how will one understand the 12 zhuang type of writing?
Also ask how many of the Chinese today can comprehen the clasical Chinese written in Qing Dynasty?

In additional, if we didn't find the 12 zhuang writing. Yik Kam writing will also gone for a big part due to no one knows what is what but words. words which no one comprehend. such as...Ying Yang... what the heck are those?

[Hendrik]

I agree about spirituality. It comes from within and it doesn't matter if you sit in your backyard or go to some natural setting in China. The light comes from within and is about being aware and living in the present.

[/QUOTE]

May be a genious comes out of a billion people and within x000 years. Some one similar to Hui Neng. But not the 99999999....


What is within? if that is about logical or wise thoughts or wise words that is not it. everything changing.....

The past mind will not come back. the present mind cannot be preserve. The future mind is not here yet. So which "present"?



Again, Dalai lama or .... name ... or title or the oldest..... doesn't mean a thing for me. Were is the beef , the principle , the technology....and the mechanics..... that makes a different.

As it was said in the Six patriach sutra.
"......There are only words without substance."

As also saying in the Chan that " don't be a parrot."

[cha kuen]

The present as in the present. Now. Being able to open your senses to notice and see everything around you. To be in this spiritual realm that seems so unreal, but is So real.

I don't need any daila lama, any pasture or readings. I only need to look within.

[Hendrik]

I don't need any daila lama, any pasture or readings. I only need to look within. [/QUOTE]

That is an accaptable personal choice. Nothing Wrong.







Speaking of "Fault " to contrast the "Truth".
Both "Fault" and "Truth" are illusive in nature.
The reality is beyond the paradigm of "Fault and Truth".
How can one makes a conclusion on
How the way one "sees" and the object that being "see" it the "reality"?
---- Surangama Sutra volume 5





"Contemplating the Heaven and earth,
Balance and Acceptiveness ( sunyata) give birth to dharmas,
Big pitures and Details specification, Open and Close,
The wonderfulness is within the heart

Thus ,as it is, the characteristic of balance and stillness.
That is the "real " Ying Yang,
When the Jewel is in balance and stillness,
Executing and applications is then a matter of natural continousity. ..... ----- Emei 12 Zhuang.

See, SLT don't need to import...



For me,


Confusius said: if one don't know it is better to learn.
Heaven is High and Earth is vast. There are many many things....
How much have one comprehended? Life is short.

[S.Teebas]

Posted by Hendrik
Yik Kam writing will also gone for a big part due to no one knows what is what but words. words which no one comprehend. such as...Ying Yang... what the heck are those?



Thus ,as it is, the characteristic of balance and stillness.
That is the "real " Ying Yang,

I think you answered your own question.. I believe comprehending stillness helps understand movement a whole lot better.

I agree that SLT is the core of WC. But are you saying that at one time SLT was all 3 hand forms linked together and was, for some reason, separated into what we have today?

[Hendrik]

I think you answered your own question.. I believe comprehending stillness helps understand movement a whole lot better.



My answer might not be the answer.
Let the ancestors answer the questions they created. LOL


How can one makes a conclusion on
How the way one "sees" and the object that being "see" is the "reality"? " --- Surangama






I agree that SLT is the core of WC. But are you saying that at one time SLT was all 3 hand forms linked together and was, for some reason, separated into what we have today?


The essense of the art are those components which were the essense of the big picture and the Detail specification.

The essense of the art cannot be limited to just forward facing. it has to incoorporate different angles and ....

when both essense of the the body and applications...the big picture and the detail specifications are united.
Then, the art is completed.

Who have lost it?
Who has ignorance enought to keeping add stuffs and distorted things?
Lets the next genaration to be the critics.. LOL.



Mention "one" to contrast "three."
Both "three" and "one" are illusive in nature.
The One is beyond "three" or "one"........




Speaking of "Fault " to contrast the "Truth".
Both "Fault" and "Truth" are illusive in nature.
The reality is beyond the paradigm of "Fault and Truth".---- Surangama Sutra volume 5

[cha kuen]

Speaking of how the three forms of wing chun used to be one form...you can also say that in the beginning chinese martial arts had no forms-it was only fighting.

-Cha Kuen

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[Hendrik]

Originally posted by cha kuen
Speaking of how the three forms of wing chun used to be one form...you can also say that in the beginning chinese martial arts had no forms-it was only fighting.

-Cha Kuen

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Then you don't understand Chinese people.

[cha kuen]

Hendrik,

Explain to me what you meant by your statement. I'd like to learn a little.


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