Shedding some light on the Hung-Sing controversy

[Fu-Pow]

I just got a hold of the memorial program from the Hung-Sing CLF reunion in Singapore. The history of CLF as Sifu Frank has outlined is in accord with the history that is described in this program. If Frank is wrong. Then you must consider all Hung-Sing wrong on this point. That is a lot of people that are wrong.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Serpent]

If Frank is Hung Sing and there was a Hung Sing memorial, then it's quite likely that they're all going to agree. Who attended this reunion in Singapore? Who arranged it?

There are more than 10,000 people in Chan family CLF, so that's also a lot of people to be wrong.

There seems to be an awful lot of conjecture surrounding this subject and very little verifiable, unbiased proof.

[bean curd]

on the issue of hung sing, there is no issue on this, even chan yong fa is aware of the relation between chan heung and hung sing !!!

yong fa has even changed his wording.

all families and lineages where present except for chan yong fa himself, which i see no point in going into, as it is not required for public forum.

suffice to say that regarding elders ( buk sing and hung sing ) on this issue, the only one on the side line is/was chan yong fa.

over a thousand elders where present at this meeting.

as to credability on the hung sing issue, elders have deep knowledge on the issue and regardig letters which is not my place to expand on and in choi li fut, elders are respected.

elders come from all walks of life and also differing lineages, so it is not a manopoly from only one family !!!

regarding " keeper of the faith" issue,

as kong hing has said " this is martial arts, not a family business, it is different !!!"

if you don't know who kong hing is, then i would suggest you ask a choi li fut player from any lineage, he is extremly well known and an elder of choi li fut.

if they say they don't know who he is,then they either need to get out more or really don't do choi li fut

[nospam]

Who is kong hing, anywho, eh?

Or perhaps just reside in Canada? ;)

nospam.

[CLFNole]

Kong Hing is a well known buk sing CLF sifu who is the si hing of Lai Hung, another well known buk sing sifu both of whom taught the Lacey brothers, Sifu's Vince and Dave.

As far as the person who questioned the Hung Sing Memorial in Singopore. Representatives from various hung sing schools from around the world attended. It was an aniversary celebration for the Singapore Hung Sing Kwoon.

As far as who believes what and who whose what because they are related to so and so. I don't feel that being related to someone means anything. As far as what we Hung Sing practioners believe and what the Chan Family believes, it really doesn't matter. We all practice CLF. If I believe in the Green Grass Monk then thats my business, if you don't I really could care less.

What is important is that CLF is passed on, whether its hung sing, buk sing or Chan family style.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

I just posted this to confirm that what Sifu Frank had posted is the popular history among Hung Sing members. I don't think that the history as it was printed, would have made it into the book if there was disagreement among Hung-Sing members. What each individual believes is of course up to him/her. However, if you don't believe in the Green Grass Monk, realize that you are out of line with popular thought amongst your own branch. That is all.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[premier]

Who gives a ****?

I don't care who's right. It doesn't affect my training in any way.

[yik-wah-tik]

who gives a ****? huh?

well obviously many more of my hung sing brothers do now.!!!!!!!! and i so **** proud of my hung sing brothers who finally stepped forward to stand up for our hung sing history.

most are right, the past is the past. but without knowing our past we will not know our future. the chan family of clf does not look anything like hung sing choy lee fut of buk sing choy lee fut! i know most will say that it is the sifu's influence in the style, more often than not it is the sifu's approach on the applications. personally my sifu fought it out in the streets of san francisco's chinatown, so he definetely knows how to use his gung fu. he has passed that information down to us, and like myself, many of my classmates have had our fare share of street fights. we are defintely not tournament fighters or studio masters.
we in the bay area have to fight to survive. the bay is not always a fun place to live.

for my hung sing brothers, i applaud you for stepping forward. our story needs to be told! i do not blame the chan family students, i blame the chan family elders for not correctly telling our story.

fu-pow is right, the history that the singapore hung sing kwoon has put out is the same that i have recorded, as well as every other hung sing/buk sing kwoon around the world.

so to our hung sing people, spread the word! our time has come, and don't let chan family cloud your research. all you have to do is begin asking questions, you will see that they do not have the answers, but they are there. i will help any who wish to know, just email me from my webpage at:hungsing.com

fran :

[CLFWolf]

New information about the history of lineages in CLF came up in some research in the late Chan Family CLF school travel to China. They visited King Mui Village and all the places in southern China were CLF expanded. There's some new and interesting information concerning the existance of "green grass monk" in the following link from the Chan family's official
website:

http://www.clfma.com/viewtopic.php?topic=80&forum=1

Peace to all CLF brothers.

[extrajoseph]

Fu-Pow,

You left Sydney Hung Sing Gwoon Forum with bad feelings. Now you are trying to stir up more bad feelings here amongst the CLF brothers. That's a cheap shot, we can see right through you!

JoesphX

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Hi extrajoseph

Why do you view fu-pow's post in a bad light? Isn't Fu-pow only raising a point of view?

[extrajoseph]

Ego,

That point of view has been done to death if you look back to the old postings. We all know what each others points of view are, now is the time for some hard evidence. Go and check out webposting as suggested by CLFWolf and find me equivalent primary source to say otherwise.

Also, if you can get hold of a copy of the Inaugural Jounal of the Association in Memory of Chan Heung 30 years ago in Hong Kong you will find the elders of that time have already agreed on what is the official version of the CLF history. No one raised any objections then, why now? What is the hidden agenda? Read what Bruce has to say in the same posting refered to earlier:

"What a discovery! I myself were engaged in a fierce debate with another fellow Choyleefut guy from Cheung Yim's lineage from HK in a kungfu forum in Chinese. JosephX is right, they just want to hear what they want to hear. When questioned about the fictitious dates about when Cheung existed and when he followed Chan Heung, he just became rude and started being sarcastic.

I anticipate they will say Chan, Yiu Chi is making up the stories as they already said he changed the birthday of Chan, Heung.

In my opinion, these people just want to make Cheung Yim 's status to be the same level of Chan Heung, and in doing so, their lineage 's Choyleefut seems to be equal to, if not higher , than the Chan's lineage."

Fu pow's remark, "I just posted this to confirm that what Sifu Frank had posted is the popular history among Hung Sing members." is just a wolf in sheep's skin. He knows from the past how easy is to get me and Frank and the rest going again.

"Who gives a ****? I don't care who's right. It doesn't affect my training in any way." is not an answer either. History is not a belief system, history is a social science. Let us look at the evidence and not the rhetorics.

Lets cut this crap and go on to the chase, where is the evidence for the existence of Ching Cho Wo-Sherng and where is the evidence that Cheung Yim co-founded CLF or being the "Father of CLF"?

Let us be more objective, what is the point of getting into emotional arguments without hard evidence? That is exactly what Fu Pow wants us to do when he says one person's point of view is more popular than another.

JosephX

[extrajoseph]

you have painted kong hing as a hot shot and the meeting in singapore as a choi li fut "summit" meeting. perhaps it is only an exaggeration on your part as CLFNoble has said he is only a sihing of lai hung and the meeting was just an anniversary celebration for the singapore hung sing kwoon.

many choi li fut practitioners don't know kong hing and according to you they should not be doing choi li fut, right? well, perhaps they should do another form of martial art called choy lee fut instead!

if you know your choi li fut personalities well, then you would know kong hing is the son of kong on, and if not for his father's reputation kong hing would not be in his position today. isn't it ironic that he would say (according to you), " this is martial arts, not a family business, it is different !!!",especially when they used the singapore occasion to mourn the passing of tarm fei-pan, the son of tarm sarm. who said martial arts business is not a family business.

as to choi li fut being monopolized by the chen family, where is your evidence for that? are you saying maintaining chan heung as the founder is a monopoly?

josephx

[bean curd]

extrajoseph,

you like to talk way after the converstion is finished. what you write about of kong hing is pure fantasy on your part. the only truth in your words is that kong hing is the son of kong Oon, and is si-hing to lai hung, so you point is ????

i suggest you go to hong kong for yourself, to get the story straight !! as to many not knowing who he is, your circle of choi li fut players must stay within the walls of chen village, i suppose you will also say they don't know who lun gee is too!!

you bring up dirt that has landed on you and you are trying to throw it in another direction, you use tam fai pans name as if you know him, if you don't know the father then there is know way you would know the son, so don't talk like you know what was going on in singapore.

if you wont to play that game then tell me why chan yong fa didn't go to singapore, and don't tell me he was busy.

this crap has gone on enough, if you want to bring it back up, your choice. i did not dissparage chan heung, if you read what i said he was a great scholar to choi li fut, if you read i have said tam sam did choi li fut, not his own creation.

if you want to say that i don't look to chan yong fa being the inheritor of choi li fut then you are correct, however chan heung is a large part of choi li fut and so is hung sing, but some make it to be less than what it actually was.

go ask him ( yong fa ) how he got the family scrolls!!

don't through **** in my face it'll come straight back, and one more thing, still on choi li fut, you should know this saying pretty well then " if you talk, your fists better follow"

like i said there is no need for this it has been gone for sometime now, but if you want to bring it up, your call

[extrajoseph]

you like to talk way after the converstion is finished. what you write about of kong hing is pure fantasy on your part. the only truth in your words is that kong hing is the son of kong Oon, and is si-hing to lai hung, so you point is ????

A. My point is that you have made a mountain out of a mole hill out of Kong Hing. Myself is a generation older than he is, so I should be an elder as well. So how about some respect for your elder?

i suggest you go to hong kong for yourself, to get the story straight !! as to many not knowing who he is, your circle of choi li fut players must stay within the walls of chen village, i suppose you will also say they don't know who lun gee is too!!

A. What story you want me to get it straight? I go to Hong Kong 2 or 3 times a year. Does it make me special just to say that I have heard of Kong Hing and Lun Gee?

you bring up dirt that has landed on you and you are trying to throw it in another direction, you use tam fai pans name as if you know him, if you don't know the father then there is know way you would know the son, so don't talk like you know what was going on in singapore.

A. Did I say I know Tarm Fei-Pang? All I said was that they mourned him in Singapore, wasn't it true? I have no idea what goes on your part of the world and I don't care.

if you wont to play that game then tell me why chan yong fa didn't go to singapore, and don't tell me he was busy.

A. What game are you referring to? Why should I know why Chan Yong Fa didn't go to Singapore? May be he has not been asked? May be he didn't want to go? May be he was too busy, why can't he say that? Why don't you ask him yourself direct? So your point is???

this crap has gone on enough, if you want to bring it back up, your choice. i did not dissparage chan heung, if you read what i said he was a great scholar to choi li fut, if you read i have said tam sam did choi li fut, not his own creation.

A. Then there is no crap to talk about then. Why are you so upset? Why carry on?

if you want to say that i don't look to chan yong fa being the inheritor of choi li fut then you are correct, however chan heung is a large part of choi li fut and so is hung sing, but some make it to be less than what it actually was.

A. Did I say you should look to Chan Yon-Fa being the inheritor of CLF? So your point is???

go ask him ( yong fa ) how he got the family scrolls!!

A. Why me? Why don't you do it yourself? Are you implying he got it in a funny way? Who is talking crap now?

don't through **** in my face it'll come straight back, and one more thing, still on choi li fut, you should know this saying pretty well then " if you talk, your fists better follow"

A. So where do we meet? Which part of the cyberspace? All you know is how to solve a problem with a punch up. Will you wipe that **** off you face and grow up!

like i said there is no need for this it has been gone for sometime now, but if you want to bring it up, your call

A. It seems you have made you call already which does not leave me with much room. I expect another raving from you soon, no doubt. If you want to waste your time, go ahead, make my day!:mad:

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Surely making up a kwoon's history is no good for the credibility of the style? Insn't there other ways to gauge the authenticity other then when a master lived or died?

[k-no]

You guys are effing hilarious.

Let's not get worked up over formalities. At first, I was a little annoyed at what "Chan Family supporters" had to say regarding the "history announcements". I was also most peeved at the belittling of Kong Hing Sigung, by people who don't know any better. But our mere words cannot change the minds of people who refuse to accept any other possibilities.

For the record, I understand how Sifu Frank's statements may have raised some concerns, but the retaliatory and defamatory statements by the "opposition" was 10 times worse! And now we stoop to the same level.

I agree with a previous poster, time is better spent in training, not bickering. Preach to those who will listen. I understand there is a big calling to unite CLF. It's a long time coming my friends. I speak to everyone, Chan family and Hung Sing/Buk Sing...let's quit all the BS and follow what we believe in. Like I have told my classmates in the past, when intimidation and harrassment was abundant, "Let them throw their insults, let them slander our name, meanwhile train hard and often, and when we get our shot for one on one in that ring in front of all those people, then the whole world will see who has been doing their homework."

K

[yik-wah-tik]

for a picture of master kong hing, pls refer to my website at : hungsing.com and go to photo album and choose pictures from oct trip to china. master kong hing as well as master poon sing are on my website.

man, i can't believe this is still going on. i was reading thru some threads especially in clfma and i can't believe my ears. now they claim that monk ching cho is in fact choy fook. wow, didn't they always claim that monk ching cho never existed? but hey he does now!!!!!!!

everyone here needs to show respect to all elders, especially kong hing, he reputation precedes him, and for those who don't know, get your nose out of chan heungs ass and pay attention to the current elders who are propagation clf today.

history was never recorded as it happened, even howard choy can be quoted on this, and who says that a 3rd generation master couldn't change the history to bend in their favor.

regardless, in choy lee fut alone, chan heung is recognized as the root to choy lee fut, but jeong hung sing was the most famous choy lee fut master of his time. chan heung has never been mentioned in the past or about his deeds, but jeong hung sing IS recognized as an accomplished master as well as fighter. it is well known about his fights. even wing chun, our immortal enemy mentions jeong yim, not chan heung.

just because chan heung created to original base to clf doesn't make him a fighter or invincible, or his family of clf the best, top notch, or unbeatable. this history thing was fun, but ****, we need to come together and agree on our history, or we will always have guys like me who will stir up some **** and be heard.

we will never know the truth. and people are always changing. look at what the chans did, now there are four branches to clf, hell professor lau bun developed his clf to fit his needs and to adapting to living in america, hell he is the 5th branch of choy lee fut with roots to fut san hung sing kwoon. Professor lee koon hung is another creator and should be recognized as such!

as i have stated before, "you can't stop it"

frank-yik-wah-tik:eek:

[Fu-Pow]

Joseph-

No disrespect. But if you look at the date on my original post this is from way back in September. CLF Wolf pulled this thread up to the top.

Since then I have had a change of heart. Mainly because of a private discussion with Seng Au in Hawaii.

CLF is all one family and I hope we can all learn from each other. I hope to learn some of the internal sets from the Chan Family some day.

History is interesting but it is in the past and the people who created it are dead. What are people going to say about us when we are dead and gone? That we sat around bickering on a stupid internet forum? When we had the opportunity to share information and spread our art?

I can't believe people are rehashing this, this stupid history thing.

Peace and Yau Sam to all my CLF brothers, Chan Family, Hung Sing Gwoon and everyone else.

Let's turn this post around on a positive bent. When can we have a big Southern Style only tournament where all the CLF schools can compete and share info?

Let's put the politics aside, even if it is only the younger generation that shows up to the tournament.

[extrajoseph]

"man, i can't believe this is still going on. i was reading thru some threads especially in clfma and i can't believe my ears. now they claim that monk ching cho is in fact choy fook. wow, didn't they always claim that monk ching cho never existed? but hey he does now!!!!!!!"



Frank my funny man,

Where is your logic? If Ching Cho is in fact Choy Fook then he never existed because they are the same person. Have you seen the evidence for their claim? At least check it out before you dismiss them.

Happy New Year! You are killing me with laughter!

JosephX

[extrajoseph]

Fu Pow,

Happy New Year to you too! My best wishes to you and your family. Let us start a new page for the new year.

Cheers,

JosephX

[iron_silk]

Fu-Pow I am really impressed with your words! Good going!

But I don't know why you must insult people who haven't heard of Kong Hing...I mean geez...I would like to hear more about Kong Hing if you don't mind telling me but must you insult others like "get your nose out of " someone's ass? hmmm?

Now I am not saying I am pro any side...but as a note...a little over a decade ago a TV show of CLF was made by TVB called "Nan Kuen Choy Lay Fut" with the English name "The Rise of a Kung Fu master"

Now in this series there were some elements that weren't clearly from actual history and some even very ridiculous BUT it was a great show dispite the one bad element because of bulk of story, kung fu, and characters.

It showed Chan Heung as a thinker...always thinking in ways of learning and using kung fu. But my point is the quote him once saying to another practicioner "Just because you lost to me today doesn't mean you can't beat me tomorrow...we are all still young and can learn..."

I won't use this as a proof of anything because it wasn't, but it was a great show with great characters which we all can learn from. Also the kung fu choreography displayed showed true elements of CLF in it.

So is it necessary to prove one to be invincible in order for their history to be true or whatever?
You know what I haven't heard much in regards to jeong yims history or stories...but I am interested in learning and listening. Now saying that I don't want a repeat of ...water dispute and Green Grass Monk...

I mean about him after being a master.

Thanks!

[Fu-Pow]

But I don't know why you must insult people who haven't heard of Kong Hing...I mean geez...I would like to hear more about Kong Hing if you don't mind telling me but must you insult others like "get your nose out of " someone's ass? hmmm?


I didn't write the post you are mentioning, Yik-Wak-Tik (aka Frank McCarthy) wrote it. Look back over the post and you will see your error. I barely know who Kong Hing is.

Peace out

[JAZA]

FU Pow:

I am wonder of your last post, I always think that you were a reasonable person, thats why I tried to reply some of your post and you think that I was attacking you.

For The Hung SIng people:

In the history side, what Sisuk Howard Choy publish in the Sydney HSg site is an investigation of documents of Chan Yiu Chi in King Mui. In no place is said that is the truth for everyone, just historical documents of Chan family.
You can go there and see that in no place is disrespectful to Yeong Yim and there he is recognized as foundeer of a branch.
Is Frank publish his branch history, I will be glad to read in his site. It will be his branch true, and I will respect it, but you can think that it must change the views of the others branchs.
Let´s stop this, this discussion is old in this forum and was very negative. Don´t throw oil to the fire again.

[bean curd]

joseph, joseph, joseph,

what thats it, that was the reply.

one thing though, and i'll para-phrase, on your first post addressed to me, when you said " they should do another art choy lee fut "

laughed my ass off, choi li fut to choy lee fut, man what quick witt, no flies on you eh, must have taken you hours to think of that come back. i know, what about they do tsai li fo, or choy lay fut, that could help too.

why you brought this all back up again makes no sense, you must have been bored, all broad based no specifics, waste of my time

[CLFWolf]

OK. This has gone too far. I'm calling for a cease-fire here. There WILL be a chance for us all to meet and share our knowledge on CLF no matter what branch of CLF we belong to. I'm talking about the 2nd Choy Lee (Li, Lay, whatever...) Fut World Championship which will be held in Santiago, Chile in 2004. I welcome everyone who has somethiing to do with CLF to come to my country so that we can meet and learn from each other. Elders from all over the world will be here. It is a family (CLF family) meeting. When we go to family meetings we don't start discussing on who was the best grandfather, uncle, cousin or anything. We go because we all come from the same lineage and there is a part of us in each one. Same blood. In CLF it is the same. We share the same origins and we must realize that. Chan Heung said in his ten behaviour rules of CLF that when we start practising we become brothers and that we must treat each other like that. We must help our younger brothers and respect our elder brothers. Never fight each other and stand together to help each other in, let's say, an "evil ninja killers school" that may be bothering our brothers. That's for sure brothers. Amen!!
(Besides, we all know what the best and most complete martial art is... :D ) Long live CLF!!!

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by CLFWolf

"OK. This has gone too far. I'm calling for a cease-fire here. There WILL be a chance for us all to meet and share our knowledge on CLF no matter what branch of CLF we belong to. I'm talking about the 2nd Choy Lee (Li, Lay, whatever...) Fut World Championship which will be held in Santiago, Chile in 2004. I welcome everyone who has something to do with CLF to come to my country so that we can meet and learn from each other."

"I hope one day some of the different branches of CLF can get together and maybe do a day or so of small seminars to exchange forms and ideas, I think it would be interesting and step in a positive direction." - Sifu Joe Kiet to JosephX

"Send your message of working together out into the universe and you will be rewarded. I am certain of that." - JosephX's reply.

Never underestimate the power of a wish!

I hope you can all go. You too, Frank and bean curd and all those I have been "acidic" to. Hey, may be we can get to take a picture with the great Kong Hing and Chen Yong-Fa together! Even though we fought like dogs and cats, in the end we are family and family always make up. See you in Chile in 2004 if we don't fall out again before then!;)

[Fu-Pow]

Jaza-

I'm not sure what you are talking about :confused: . My last post was a response to iron_silk.

Maybe it is because of the language barrier.


EVERYONE-

Where can I get more information about this Choy Lay Fut event?

Who is hosting it?

This is the first I've heard of this event, and I think it would be really fun to go. But I've got to start training and saving up money now if I want to go. I'm sure the airfare to Chile is not cheap and the sooner I can make a reservation the cheaper it will be.

Just don't count on me wearing around a badge that says Fu-Pow on it!!!!hehehehe

But I guarantee that I'll be the tallest person there.

Thanks in advance.


Peace

[JAZA]

I post a reply in the clfma forum before you abandone it.
I wrote about the kind of language you used there like "stupid book".
But even we don´t believe in the same I'm glad you talk with sifu Seng Au.
We are not talibans fundamentalists, we can respect and tolerate the other believes not just in CLF, we must take a look to the newspapers and see how the world is.

[iron_silk]

I actually meant the first line in my message to refer to you...the other part is refer to others and Frank in general.

Sorry again for the confusion.

[CLFWolf]

Since this meeting is going to be held in 2004 is not fully organized yet. All I can tell you is that in www.clfma.com there is a schedule on some of the following activities of the Chan Family CLF School. There they mention the 2nd trip and 3rd trips to China to be held in 2002 and 2003 respectively and the Championship to be held in Chile in 2004.

[alecM]

Fu-Pow will you be coming back to the clfma forum.

[Fu-Pow]

I already have under another name.

You can probably figure it out because I usually end my messages in the same way.

Peace

[CLFNole]

Fu Pow:

I knew it. As soon as you started using the new name I knew it was you. You starting talking about yourself and I knew you changed your name.

I won't let the new name out to keep your idenity secret.

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

Fu-Pow,

Is it true in CLF that when a person became less Noble (like a Nole) he tends to look more like a Fu (tiger) or a Pow (leopard)? To b or not to b is the question. Yes/No?

JosephX

[Vman]

Greetings board members,

My name is Vernon and I'm Frank's classmate from the Hung-Sing kwoon in San Francisco. I was authorized by Grandmaster Salvatera to clarify some things in regards to the discussions concerning Hung-Sing Choy-Lee-Fut and its lineage/founders.

Sefu Frank is a recognized teacher on his own and is the current branch historian. This forum is a excellent place to trade ideas/facts/disputes in regards to the lineage/founders of both sides. My Sefu would like to make it clear that the tone of conversation that my Sehing Frank uses is not reflective of the Hung-Sing kwoon and its teacher.

Grandmaster Salavatera extends his respects to all Choy-Lee-Fut styles and their practioners.

Peace,
Vman:cool:

[iron_silk]

The truth is the truth...no matter how many people either believe it or not...size do not matter. So if a huge group of people so happen to be wrong then so be it...then again they could be right...so size is never a factor!