Very un-PC, offensive, and probably rude topic...

[IronFist]

Would you grapple with a gay guy? A couple scenarios:

1. There's an openly gay guy in your class and he is your partner for the day (or an exercise or whatever).

2. There's an openly gay guy in your class who has a crush on you and he's your partner for the day (or exercise or whatever).

I'm just wondering cuz my friend had scenario 2 occur the other day. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Is it wrong to say "no, I don't want to grapple with you?" Cuz I mean, he has as much right to be there and learn as you do, right? That's what my friend did... he's all "No, I'm going to work with this other guy instead," and walked away.

So I'm going to leave it open. What would you do?

And if this topic is offensive to you, don't read it :D

IronFist

[Merryprankster]

1. Yes. Who cares?

2. I don't want to be that close to anybody who has a crush on me that I'm not interested in. Simply put, I'd say "Here's the deal--I know the scoop, and you do ANYTHING I don't like, we're switching partners. You act like you don't understand what I'm talking about right now, we're switching partners. I'm here to learn, not flirt."

[MonkeySlap Too]

I think the same rules that apply to women apply here - if you do not feel comfortable working out with someone, ask to train with someone else. It is not h)m)phopia to be uncomfortable - especially if the other person expressed interest in you, that you do not reciprocate.

This should be no big deal.

[Sleemie]

Hey MerryPrankster....I see you're from DC, not many people on here from this area. Where do you study? Which School? What style/system?

[GLW]

Sexual orientation does NOT matter.

It is 100% inappropriate for anyone to feel like they may be groped during a normal part of class.

If you were female and had to go with a male classmate who was known to be an octopus, you have a right to NOT do this and a responsibility to make sure the instructor knows WHY.

If you are female and the groper is female - same thing. If you are male and the groper is female - same thing. If you are male and the groper is male - same thing.

If the person working with you is NOT groping but you are just reading in your feelings, get a grip...on yourself.

As for practicing in a class with anyone, if you have a problem with someone, it is YOUR problem as long as they are not behaving inappropriately...and just being openly gay is NOT behaving inappropriately.

Who a person goes out with after class doesn't concern me. Bringing such things into MY class wastes my time and will cause me to isolate a student or ask them to leave.

[IronFist]

So, as a guy, you wouldn't mind being poked during a grappling match?

It CAN happen, so don't say it doesn't.

IronFist

[Badger]

1. Hell No.
2. HELL NO!!!

[Suntzu]

I don’t think gay men are soooo sexually outta control that they couldn't refrain from grouping… I mean do u (or whoever we are talkin bout) feel up on every female partner… yeah, it could happen… someone could get 'poked' or whatever… and if said gay dude gets out of line choke him out!!! but all that other stuff is just fear... "oh nooo, he might feel me up":rolleyes:

[FatherDog]

I've never grappled with a guy that I was aware was gay, so I can't say for sure...

...but I've grappled with women that fall waaaaaaay below my 'minimum standards of attractiveness' (call me shallow) which, in my view, is essentially the same thing; close physical contact with someone who /might/ be attracted to you who you are /definitely/ not attracted to.

It never bothered me, and I doubt grappling with a gay guy would, either.

Now, if it was a gay guy who had a crush on me, I'd probably approach it like MP would. That would probably make me a little uncomfortable, but then, so does being in close contact with a girl who has a crush on me that I'm not interested in.

Bottom line, as long as everyone keeps in mind that they're there to train, not flirt, everything is cool.

[Former castleva]

I´m pretty much along the same lines.
No matter who,what orientation or whatever,that goes beyond what is expected in class.
Your example is one example.

[Odie-wan]

I had the opportunity of working with a couple gay and bi guys in the Navy on my first submarine. Although we didn't grapple (not much room on a sub anyway), I wouldn't hesitate because I knew them and we had a mutual respect. So for scenario #1, yes I would.

They had a flamer for a friend that had a crush on me. I would not even consider grappling with that individual. But, if one of my crew members (whom I trusted) had similar feelings, I would not hesitate to roll in the kwoon with him as long as he understood my feelings on the matter.

Sean

[Ryu]

There was an attractive female in my BJJ school for as long as I was there, and I rolled with her on several occasions. She was very skilled.

I've also taught and grappled with a number of attractive women. Your mind is on training and nothing else. I think it's silly to assume that men (both straight and gay) are so undisciplined and not in control of their own bodies, that "poking" people can become an epidemic :D I've never once thought of anything but training when training was concerned.

The only exception I'd be able to think of is if someone really had strong romantic feelings for someone else ...... but even then training is training. If you think it will be a problem though, who's forcing you?

Ryu

[eulerfan]

This is a great thread because I have a crush on a guy in my kwoon. Every time I consider flirting I give myself a good smack in the face. Singles clubs are the most uncomfortable, tense places on earth and I don't want to turn my kwoon into one.

So, if this person let you know about the crush, I would purport that his boundaries are obviously not in check and you have no reason to trust him to behave on the floor.

But, if it's just that he's gay, yeah, I'd have to go with the 'get over yourself' response.

[AndrewS]

1). Yes

2). Yes, but I would go out of my way to clear up the communication and take ten minutes to grab a cup of coffee or a beer and explain that I'm not interested and that over and above that a martial arts class is *not* a pickup joint.

In #2, I think there's a point worth remembering, as I've dealt with way too many women who've decided to come to a class to act cute and flirt rather than train (and *surprise* few people mind). If I'm training, I'm there to train. When I've dated female training partners, the physical interaction in training has been purely non-sexual, I turn the little switch in my head that deals with that to *off*, and work on the skills. Later, it goes back to *on*. This is not difficult to do- even the most aggressively macho guys (and dykes) I knew in med school were **** near completely oblivious to their gyn patients after a while.

A tangent to this topic which someone will probably raise is that of blood-born disease. Speaking as an MD who has taken care of HIV patients, I have *no* problem training with someone with HIV as long as proper precautions are taken- any open wounds either of you have are covered (and at one point volunteer to help one of my si-je teach self-defence to an HIV positive support group). The risk of HIV transmission is low through this type of contact (1 in 200 to 1 in 600 for hollow bore needle stick). A problem much less often associated with the ****sexual community is that of Hepatitis B, which can be very nasty, and has transmission rates under similar circumstances of between 1 in 4 and 1 in 2. A three part vaccine series (now standard for kids shots) is 90-95% effective at blocking this.

In a perfect world, and certainly in any school I eventually wind up running, I would like to see two things-

1). An environment where either gender and any sexual orientation can train comfortably as long as they're willing to work hard, sweat, and sometimes bleed

2). An awareness that the last quality needed to learn, bleeding, has consequences, and as such requires certain measures be taken both for your own good and that of your training partners including- covering all open wounds, HIV, Hep B, and Hep C serologies, and a Hepatitis B vaccine series.

Lecture mode *off*

Andrew

[AndrewS]

I know the word 'h^o^m^o' is viewed as an epithet but the software on this board which decides to censor it whenever it appears as a portion of a word gives things a decidedly Orwellian tone.

Later,

Andrew

[eulerfan]

****geneous

[eulerfan]

:rolleyes:

[Odie-wan]

AndrewS - I hear ya' big brother.

[IronFist]

****geneous :D

IronFist

[TaoBoy]

C'mon people - I'd hope that we can separate desire and training just for the small amount of time we are in the kwoon or on the mat. I've trained with many attractive women - but aside from thinking "My God <insert name here> has a smashing body, I bet she shags like a minx" - I just get on with training. (Sorry I couldn't resist :) )

Now seriously, I don't care about sexual persuasion. If someone - regardless of which team they play for - makes an unwarranted move during training, they will be in a fair deal of trouble. I speak from experience here. I have memories of a psycho chick in a kung fu class - we'll leave it there. :eek:

[yenhoi]

1st - Women and gays do not belong in the kwoon.

All the hot *****es I have rolled with are always belts ahead of me in grapplin skills. I would (and was) afraid to grope. Now If I could only find a hot ass white belt, then I would probably go for it. :cool:

[Royal Dragon]

****ginised milk

****saipian

****erectus?

And my personal favorite from the Simpson's

Homersexual

[Merryprankster]

Sleemie,

I'm a BJJ/Wrestler/did some boxing but had to take a break to focus on my BJJ.

No CMA in my background at all.

[Arioch7]

Well, well... this is a doozie.

I would probably grapple with him for question number one but that brings to mind a question. Why would I even KNOW his sexuality? I have a few gay customers that I have found out about but they did not come out and say "I am gay!".

Anybody that has to be open about thier sexuality to me in a training environment is a headcase. I would feel the same way if some straight guy was telling me about his sexual prowess, it is inappropriate. I am not a ****-phobe or a hetero-phobe... those terms are absurd anyway.

As to question number two... sorry, I would not. As a matter of fact, I would not spar with ANYONE who had a crush on me. Women are included in this... if such conduct is deemed ILLEGAL in the workplace, then it should be not tolerated in the Kwoon. No means no, you know what I mean?

As far as HIV goes... I am sorry, I wont go there either. It is not about ****sexuality, it is about disease. I would not roll on the mat with someone who has the aforementioned Hepatitis. If that makes me "phobic" about drug addicts and ****sexuals so be it.

Here is the bottom line, HUMANS FEAR DISEASE. I do not think this is a bad thing. For the record, I would not grapple a hetero with HIV either.

[Budokan]

Yeah, I'd grapple with the 'mo, as long as he lets me drive.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by IronFist
****geneous :D

IronFist

how'd you do that?

[wushu chik]

Originally posted by yenhoi
1st - Women and gays do not belong in the kwoon.

This had SOO better be a joke!

~Wen~

[Serpent]

eulerfan:

****genous

****sexual

**** sapien

**** etc.

*coughviewsourcecough*

;)

[rubthebuddha]

this should not be an issue unless someone MAKES it a problem. if you don't care who you work with, but they are overstepping their limits, let them know and don't pull any punches (figuratively).

if you are uncomfortable around it, then it's your discomfort that's making the interaction problematic. i suggest accepting your discomfort as a challenge and getting over it. any situation of self defense is by definition is uncomfortable. if you can look past that discomfort and deal with the task at hand with a clear head, you are one notch higher in your skill.

and if you think a roll with a hottie is a grope session, just try it with agirl or boy with a few tricks up her or his sleeve. the second you go for rack or package and they should fold your uniform up like clean laundry -- with you still in it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ryu
There was an attractive female in my BJJ school for as long as I was there, and I rolled with her on several occasions. She was very skilled.

I've also taught and grappled with a number of attractive women. Your mind is on training and nothing else. I think it's silly to assume that men (both straight and gay) are so undisciplined and not in control of their own bodies, that "poking" people can become an epidemic :D I've never once thought of anything but training when training was concerned.

The only exception I'd be able to think of is if someone really had strong romantic feelings for someone else ...... but even then training is training. If you think it will be a problem though, who's forcing you?

Ryu

When I was in high school a friend of mine (an attractive female) was on the wrestling team. one of the guys liked her, and while they were rolling, he poked her with something other than his fingers. Both were embarrassed, and they didn't roll anymore.

[Merryprankster]

LOL at Seven.

We had some girls that tried out for our wrestling team. Our coach--much as I respect the man--was very clearly of the mindset they didn't belong there. So they didn't stick around long. One of them had just done it to **** off her ex-boyfriend (a wrestler) anyway.

However, don't get me started on title IX. Grumble.

[Ish]

i would try to do whatever i would do if it was an ugly lass instead of a gay guy.

[Sharky]

you wouldn't say "would you grapple a girl?" would you?

just because he fancies the same sex as you, it doesn't mean he will fancy you.

but i'd probably still kick his lil ***got pixie ass back to the flower shop.

or something.

[Ford Prefect]

If it bothers your friend that much, he's most likely insecure about his own sexuality. I would imagine that girls who grapple have to tend to this issue all the time. For God's sake, be a man instead of a ****phobic little child.

[Stacey]

Grappling can be like a hug sometimes, except that you are both hitting each other in the head.

Don't think gay men are timid, many have been great warriors in history. Eunechs too. So sexualiy or even lack of it doesn't translate into violence.

Serioulsy. You probably have. That quiet guy in class.

On a real level, who gives a ****. I have grappled with women and it wasn't sexy. It was interesting, my attentioin was on balance and getting a decent lock....and of course, not getting beaten by a woman.

I used to take suai chiao and I would go through throws. At first, as she would hold my arm against her chest, I would chub up a little and her nipples would poke out. More mutual attraction than a one way thing. Anyways, as we started hitting the mats real time, it went away and our focus was more one. "How can we practice this so I don't almost break your leg when I step out. You need to get me off balance before you rotate" Etc.

No worries. If they guy gets off getting hit in the head, then you have just found a cheap punching bag, and he has found a cheap dominator. Good luck to you both.

[myosimka]

1) Who cares?

2) Who cares?


Even if they are attracted to you so what? I am willing to bet that many guys here have worked with a woman they were attracted to (at least in some small way) over the years. Don't act on it. Actions matter. Fellings(like attraction) don't. As to the concern about being poked. Yeah that'd probably freak me out too and I'd never work with the person again but most people after they pass through the other side of puberty have enough control that's not an issue. Like I said, the action matters, the potential doesn't. Also unlike many h0m0phobic males, I have never been so possessed of vanity that I believe myself attractive to the point that gay men will be unable to control themselves around me.

What bothers me about this discussion was the number of people that brought in HIV. It wasn't the subject matter. Sure an additional health risk is a consideration. I don't blame any boxer who wouldn't fight Morrison. (On the other hand, most of you probably wouldn't have the nerve to tell him that his name came up in a discussion of sparring with gays.) And that there is an automatic link between the 2 is exemplary of the narrowminded thinking on both subjects.

MerryP, I am with you on Title IX but I am a bit torn on the subject. I don't want to see it abolished until someone comes up with an alternate solution(Yes, it sucks) because it worked. Women are far more engaged in athletic programs now than they were 30 years ago and anything that keeps people active in a country with an obesity rate of 30% has some merit. But don't get me wrong, I agree it sucks and the implementation of it has created problems galore.