Point Sparring is self defeating

[Dedication]

I as a kung fu student have always wished to try out my true skills. However, i have seen nothing but point sparring(light contact) in any tournaments. Now, point sparring teaches techniques that are not good for true fighting, and have no follow up attacks. So i ask, why do martial arts intended for self defense, train students for a situation entirely different? It makes you really wonder why there have not been any kung fu practitioners being successful in K1 or such. I still love kung fu, but i think in order to make people better fighters, point sparring has to go, and full contact needs to be ushered in.

[LEGEND]

Dedication...I guess your skool maybe part of the mcdojo branch. This is quite common since full contact=injuries=less enrollment=no capital gain! U may wish to enroll into a CMA skool that trains for SAN SHOU and SAN DA tourneys...they are all full contact CMA events.

[Dedication]

Nah, i dont think im in a mcdojo, we dont train for tournies, but i meant the only tournies i have ever seen advertised for Karate and kung fu are point sparrign light contact ****. My sifu has taught me pretty good about how to handle a streetfight. Yes i am VERY interested in San Shou ( i wrestled fora year too!) but i dont know of any schools in the area. Do you knw of any in PA (specifically Pittsburgh area), however if i go to VMI for college do you know of any down there?

[lau gar]

yeh i want to do full contact not just point sparring

[SevenStar]

1. point tournies are something that men women and children can participate in

2. if you don't train seriously hard, you will get hurt going full contact. Not everyone wants to take that risk.

3. unless you live in a big MA area, chances are that nobody is promoting full contact there on a regular basis.

4. liability and paperwork issues on the promoter's end.

That being said, take some initiative. travel to full contact events, or if your sifu throws tournies, ask him to do continuous format, where you don't stop for points, and takedowns are allowed.

[LEGEND]

DEDICATION...well the closest are san shou tourneys in NYC and Baltimore, MD. So check those area out on san shou links or ask IFKMD( ??? )...he's an instructor in NYC that promotes san shou. The drive is at least 3 hours i think either way. Don't know if it'll be worth it for u but u'll have fun or get KO. lol.

[TaoBoy]

Point-sparring is just a game of tag - if anyone thinks it is more than that hey are wrong. It's true that it doesn't promote good 'reality' fighting skill, but it is good for developing entry-exit speed and targeting. I'm not a big fan of point sparring, but if you look hard enought (almost) everything has some kind of benefit.

[fa_jing]

In terms of maximum benefit to your learning, I think medium-contact continuous sparring is best. The last CMA tournament I participated in was full-contact, knock'em out, and 4 competitors out of 15 were either knocked out or had the fights stopped due to injury, including me. They didn't even have a first-aid kit, standardized equipment, or a rules sheet which speaks badly of the organization of the tournament.

[Hau Tien]

Originally posted by fa_jing
In terms of maximum benefit to your learning, I think medium-contact continuous sparring is best. The last CMA tournament I participated in was full-contact, knock'em out, and 4 competitors out of 15 were either knocked out or had the fights stopped due to injury, including me. They didn't even have a first-aid kit, standardized equipment, or a rules sheet which speaks badly of the organization of the tournament.

Yup... that's what I was going to suggest... most tournaments I've been to have both point sparring and continuous sparring. If you don't like point sparring, try out the continuous, although a lot of the people entering that section around here aren't kung fu guys, but Muay Thai guys.

[Liokault]

full contact=injuries=less enrollment=no capital gain

We get very few injurys in full contact and we only sparr full contact. What tends to happen is that after sparring full contact for the first time.....finding how scared they are the vast majority of guys just dont come back and train again=no capital gain LOL.





San Shou rules....Its great ...I can not say that strongly enough.

Its full contact...but its safer than boxing or kick boxing because you are not encouraged to stand in front of a guy and trade punches. Ok you can do that in san shou but mostly its a fast exchange of blows then a clinch then a throw.


In about 15 or so san shou fights I have done I can only remembey 1 hard blow to my head!!

[yenhoi]

Dedication:

Important to point out that MA does not prepare you for self-defense. MA trains your mind/body/spirit for combat.

(Real) sparring is only a few steps closer to real fighting then point fighting is. For your time and energy payoff, you get more bang for your buck with regular, full contact sparring then you do with any other sort of combat simulation.

Also, for some reason beyond McDojos even, people seem to like point fighting - cause they do it in large numbers, and that is not 100% because of the instructors and schools and insurance and other such randomness. Not everyone does MAs to learn how to fight better, there is a giagantic host of motivations - you might be more focused on reality based training, but not everyone else (really the majority) is :eek:

[TenTigers]

I spent the first ten years of my training sparring in point tournaments-and the next twenty years trying to break out of bad habits. Fighting range, continuation, etc all bad habits-"The techniques that will win you a plastic trophy will get you killed in the street"
I train my students in this way-so far I am pleased with the results:
sam jien kuen-teaches the student to take strikes-'getting hit doesn't mean getting hurt" this way, the fear is eliminated first thing. Contact is taught the first day.
reaction drills utilzing pak,tan, gong with multiple continuous striking. Similar drills done with extreme contact.
specific attack sequences-i.e. front thrust kick,chain punches, cup choy-we teach in the beginning just five sequences which are non-stop combos using entries kicks, and punches from our style-meaning not kickboxing, but gung-fu.
controlled sparring-continuous-using only the techniques allowed from the drills, both with gear and bare knuckle, with different levels of contact.
leading to free-sparring. various levels of contact-with and without gear.

[TenTigers]

as stated before, I am pleased with the results-so far most students can spar freely using their gung-fu. Some students who have had experience (I have many Black Belts from other schools training here) sometimes when under the gun, revert back to what has worked for them in the past-old habits are hard to break. In this case, we take a step back in the training, perhaps more drills, or slow it down, or limit their attacks and counters to specific techniques.
"If you joined a Kung-Fu school, then you should be fighting with Kung-Fu, otherwise go down the block to the American Karate school." um...I seem to say that alot on the floor.

[Dedication]

Ten Tigers , you read my mind. What style do you teach? My sifu never really seemed concerned about the tournies in the area, but he does a good job of teaching me self defense, however i want to compete :(.

[Tai-Jutsuka]

Yes, point sparring is a bunch of crap. Seeing this topic reminded me of a tournament earlier this year. I had to fight a guy who was bigger then me in a point fight. His basic fighting strategy was just to fall on me flailing his arms to make sure he always gets the first hit though none of his hits ever hurt me. I was only able to hit him twice because of it, but both my hits struck him pretty deep. With 5 seconds left in the fight I was furious. I decided that since I wasn't going to continue in the tournament I was going to hurt him very badly. The ref counted down to 1 second, he dropped his guard since it was over, I decided to use a big uppercut to the chin knocking him on his ass, delaying his next fight about 10 minutes, and banning me from any more tournaments sponsored by whatever-that-guys-name-was. And I'm usually such a nice guy too.

[myosimka]

Taijutsuka, actually you sound like an ass. To deliberately try to hurt someone in a venue that doesn't call for it when they haven't hurt you...that's malicious and uncalled for. The reason that people do pointsparring is to minimize injury. It's not full contact competition. It may be stupid (I agree that it is) but you are the one who entered the tourney. If you don't like the rules you can either lobby to change them or you can decide not to participate. But to take out your frustrations against a feloow competitor is just wrong. I haven't done point sparring in 10 years because I didn't like the rules of the local tourneys. But even when poor fighters exploited rules for the purpose of winning, I never retaliated by endeavoring to hurt someone with a cheap shot. And you actually seem proud of it. You may think you are a nice guy but somehow I doubt it.

[Budokan]

"Point sparring is self defeating"

I couldn't agree more...as long as you're talking about the experienced martial artist. But it's okay for beginners, children and women who don't want to get tagged really hard with a hammerfist to the heart.

[Tai-Jutsuka]

That was actually the first and last time I have ever hit someone without being provoked. I've learned to control my temper since then.

[Shadow Dragon]

I would say the following:

Point sparring if done correctly and used properly is ok.
I see it as useful as standing mediation, Drills, 2 man drills, form work and Push hands.

It all depends on why, when and how you are doing it and what you expect to get out of it.

If you play it as a game of tag, than you will get the benefits of "playing tag".

But than I have learned that there are always people knocking a training method, rather than asking themselves is my understanding of it flawed.

Just my Opinion

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Dedication
Nah, i dont think im in a mcdojo, we dont train for tournies, but i meant the only tournies i have ever seen advertised for Karate and kung fu are point sparrign light contact ****.

AAU and USKA sponsored tourneys allow punches to the face, sweeps/takedowns and hard contact. Some USKA tourneys allow sweeps and leg kicks now, as well as face contact with a straight punch. You can find some rougher venues, but you better know your game for the full-contact stuff. There usually is no weight class, especially in AAU. It goes by rank.

You are right though. Even those comps don't allow for real, effective use of all your fighting options. Sparring is a game and fighting is often life-or- death.

[CD Lee]

I cannot imagine why I would ever want a point sparring habit stuck in my head. I don't even want the thought. I mean, have these guys ever been in a REAL fight with a p1ssed off person? ONe punch just does not usually do it, unless you catch them unexpectedly. I have seen guys take five hard head shots, and not even get hurt, just madder and madder. Scary.

[Tai-Jutsuka]

Five hard hits to the head eh? How do you think that must have felt about 20 minutes after the fight?

[CD Lee]

Well, which guy? The one that got hit, or the one that hit him? I have had both happen to me, and they both can hurt. It all depends.

The point of course is: Who cares about 20 minutes later in a real fight? You better fight right now to win. Of course it will hurt later. But if people are 'counting' on one or two shots to win a real fight against a anger crazed bubba, they should inveset in a better strategy. Point sparring is actually dangerous and trains your mind and body to hold back, and pause. Under stress, you will perform as you practice, and rely on basic rudimentary skills. If they don't flow freely, you don't have them yet.

[Dedication]

Dunno if i mentioned this before, but it teaches you to stay at range, and makes your defense range based. I personally like to circle an opponent with ranged kicks trying to disrupt their balance and/or create and opening so i can then get in close working the crosses, hooks knees and elbows. CHain punching works well once you get in close but point sparring tournies dont allow for that. Round kicks to the ribs are also good at range or in close, but usually they are "too Powerful" in a point tournie.

[hatebreed]

ok dude you make some sensen but you must under stand if we train in a harmful way than we in a harmful way even the monk of the shaolin temple trian with ligth sparring realy you think you can handle a kick coming at full speed all the time no you be hurt or dead so spare me the bull about it not like the street no we are warrior we are stamter than the street thugs

[Dedication]

Thats what gear is for..... full contact but you wear gear so you can go all out...

Some people forsake gear too even, i do occasionly (but not too much i do value some health)

[hatebreed]

ok so there gear than what you full contact and get a rib or two broken cause you wanna see how good you are than you can't train for six mounth come on think be fore you talk

[hatebreed]

point sparring has gear to and poeple still get hurt but it less of the chance in point sparring than full contact

[SevenStar]

1. Sparring gear is really not sufficient to protect you from full contact hits.

2. gloves aren't meant to protect your opponent's head - they are to prevent you from breaking your knuckles if you punch wrong.

3. mouth pieces do protect teeth, but the main function is to keep the jawline open - it reduces the chance of knockouts.

From the standpoint of learning to fight, point sparring is self defeating. there are many positives to point fighting, as I mentioned way back at the start of this thread, but for fighting, you would do better by doing full contact. Full contact teaches alot of valuable lessons:

1. How to absorb a blow - this can be crucial in a confrontation. When people take a hard shot, they tend to lose focus and forget their training. you have to know how to deal with this.

2. timing
3. distancing
4. simplicity/efficiency

Point sparring will develop 2 and 3, but will not develop 4, if your point sparring is done in the manner you see in tourneys. Not only that, but the timing and distancing you develop will be based on those techs you are using in the sparring tourneys, which throws you out of whack with full contact.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with light contact fighting - I would actually advocate it, as it's not healthy to go full contact more than a few times per month. BUT, when you do light contact, keep it clean, like you would full contact. let full contact rules apply, not point fighting rules.

1. Do NOT stop after scoring.
2. Do NOT do any of the wild techniques that are effective in point sparring but will get you killed in full contact or on the street:
- multiple roundhouses on the same leg
- jumping in the air to backfist someone on top of the head
- etc.
3. Allow leg kicks and takedowns

Light contact can be very beneficial to your training if you go about it properly.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by hatebreed
ok so there gear than what you full contact and get a rib or two broken cause you wanna see how good you are than you can't train for six mounth come on think be fore you talk

That sounds more like you're scared of full contact. Just because you spar full doesn't mean you'll break something. and actually, I've assisted in breaking someone's toe in a point fighting tourney. he was kicking and I stepped in to close the distance. His balance broke and he fell. He fell in a funny way though, and broke a toe on his supporting leg. Injuries can happen anywhere.

[hatebreed]

ok dude i thnk you got hit in the head one to many time's look poeple get hurt every day train in the arts but they are some bad and some times light you can be a fool and go full contact and get your sh!t rock but here in new york we do point sparring and it dose work it work on timing power speed the needs of witch maker a god fighter so don't go there a bout begin a fool boy you will just get hurt stay in white boy land cause i live in the real world and point sparring is real

[hatebreed]

come down and prove your point at the warrior's quest it my event there will be a san shao divison to but to be champ you will go with the point figther and gappler

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by hatebreed
ok dude i thnk you got hit in the head one to many time's look poeple get hurt every day train in the arts but they are some bad and some times light you can be a fool and go full contact and get your sh!t rock but here in new york we do point sparring and it dose work it work on timing power speed the needs of witch maker a god fighter so don't go there a bout begin a fool boy you will just get hurt stay in white boy land cause i live in the real world and point sparring is real

ROFLMAO!!

First off, go to school. Second, I agree, point fighting can help those attributes, but there are things, like I mentioned that point fighting simply cannot do. Third, my white boy land has the third highest crime rate in the country, but that's irrelevant. So is the fact that you are in the bronx. It means jack. Third - point sparring is real? LOL, that oughtta be my new sig. You sound like a troll now. When Tyson comes here for his next fight, I'll let him know that if he really wants to learn how to hit, he should point spar.

I am interested in your event, however. Will you send me a tape after it happens?

[dnc101]

Originally posted by Dedication
So i ask, why do martial arts intended for self defense, train students for a situation entirely different?

I don't think most reality based schools do train this way. At least, the only schools I've seen train point sparing are the tournament/competition based schools. Granted, some of these delude themselves that what they are learning will be street effective. But many are honest about what they do.

I work out regularly with a bunch of tournament oriented martial artists, and they do point spar. When I engage in that, I still limmit myself to realistic moves. I lose more than my share of these 'fights'. But when it comes to continuous sparing, I almost allways come out on top with them. A couple have complained that some of my moves wouldn't be legal in a tournament. I simply say that I train for the street, and if they aren't comfortable with what I'm throwing at them it is ok not to spar with me- I don't disrespect them. (Privately, I may feel a little superior. ;) ) Not to worry, though. I also work out with some reality based guys that are happy to help me keep my ego in check.

[FatherDog]

I don't really have much to say about the point, since SevenStar has already done a pretty good job of pointing out the fallacies in the argument.

I just thought I'd mention that Hatebreed is absolutely one of the worst bands I have ever heard.

[Dedication]

now i see where hatebreed is coming from.......hes a sport karate fighter...

seriously dude, growing up in the bronx doesnt mean ****.

And youre probably from a suburb 12 miles away from it anyways.

[hatebreed]

hey why not just come down to the event tell your friends to
check out the warrior quest post it has all the info you need
by the way we will have this event video tape so if you want the fame than come on down your friend hatebreed

[hatebreed]

hey why not just come down to the event tell your friends to
check out the warrior quest post it has all the info you need
by the way we will have this event video tape so if you want the fame than come on down your friend hatebreed

[Machimurasan]

Originally posted by Dedication
I as a kung fu student have always wished to try out my true skills. However, i have seen nothing but point sparring(light contact) in any tournaments. Now, point sparring teaches techniques that are not good for true fighting, and have no follow up attacks. So i ask, why do martial arts intended for self defense, train students for a situation entirely different? It makes you really wonder why there have not been any kung fu practitioners being successful in K1 or such. I still love kung fu, but i think in order to make people better fighters, point sparring has to go, and full contact needs to be ushered in.

Self-defeating? You are very correct, literally and figuratively. It can be fun and a good way to build false confidence, though, haha.

There are AAU and USKA tournaments which are full-contact with only hand pads. Sweeps, punches to the face and head, throws and sometimes low-kicks are allowed. They're in every state so look for one. At the last one I attended (AAU) in Corpus Christi, Texas there were several Chuan Fa (Kung Fu) schools entered. They didn't do so hot, but they got a taste of some sparring beyond light contact or point tourneys. Point tourneys are outdated. There are real bogu-gear tourneys which allow full-on hard contact and grappling too (sometimes). They are usually associated with Okinawan styles. Look for one of those if you think you got what it takes.

If you spar it should include some realism. Even the full-contact tourneys operate on the controlled technique and point system. There will be no ref in the street. The only techs that count in the street are the ones that allow you to win decisively, effectively and STANDING. Still, you should understand some groundfighting just in case.

BTW, some gurus on this board can only tell you what they know. Most stuff nowadays is half-ass ed, half-hearted, half-stepping commercialized fluff. This is the base they come from. Take what others say with a grain of salt. Research stuff yourself. Experience is the best teacher.

[hatebreed]

oy dude i do live in the bronx and i do do sport karate because it has the safe and usefull way to learn figthing skills even in kung fu they teach you to point sparrr first "you must crawl before you walk"

[[Censored]]

even in kung fu they teach you to point sparrr first "you must crawl before you walk"

More like "you must run before you jump". Does that make sense to you? Don't answer.

Actually, point sparring is closer to reality than full-contact. You train for points, and points are exactly what you get. Not like training to kill, and then stopping at a TKO. :p

Point sparring is self-reinforcing. Fighting is self-defeating. Pick up a dictionary, folks. :rolleyes:

Happy New Year! :)

[KenWingJitsu]

TenTigers!

Great post. Sounds like you teach your students how to FIGHT! which is what it should be about. Can you talk more about how you train them to spar. I'm assuming you teach wing chun right?


As for point sparring. Its isn't all bad, but it isn't all good either. It teaches you as many bad things as it does good things. BUT.....you can take the good stuff (speed, good footwork & timing) & leave out the bad (one strike only, bad hands positon etc). the good you can take to full contact & do well with.

[scotty1]

"As for point sparring. Its isn't all bad, but it isn't all good either. It teaches you as many bad things as it does good things. BUT.....you can take the good stuff (speed, good footwork & timing) & leave out the bad (one strike only, bad hands positon etc). the good you can take to full contact & do well with."

Good post. There's a time and a place for most training methods.

If you're aware of the limitations of point fighting, you can still take the good things (speed, timing, feints etc) without thinking you're the don and learning bad habits.

[scotty1]

Without meaning to cause offence to anyone in particular, (just everyone in general:)) I think some guys on the forum are too obsessed with being totally hardcore, all of the time.

Like Seven* says, sparring full contact too often is bad for your brain. What do you do the rest of the time?

LOL @ Hatebreed.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by scotty1
Like Seven* says, sparring full contact too often is bad for your brain. What do you do the rest of the time?

Drills, forms, hitting the bag. Stuff that builds good habits.

[scotty1]

Fatherdog - I agree that all those need to be worked.

And I would also agree that rules such as stopping after the point is scored encourage people to do things such as flying backfists, and that could be habit forming, as well as a complete waste of time.

So yeah, in that sense point sparring is pretty, er, pointless.

But I do think that medium and light continuous sparring are useful tools for training bridging techs, rhythm, timing, and just trying out new things, without the threat of a broken nose or something. Following successful application in this "safe" arena they can then be tried in an "unsafe" arena ie. full contact sparring.

I think I misunderstand people's dislike of point sparring as a dislike of any non- full contact sparring, and that is the context in which my previous comments were made.

Shouldn't assume such things really.

[Machimurasan]

Originally posted by [Censored]
even in kung fu they teach you to point sparrr first "you must crawl before you walk"

More like "you must run before you jump". Does that make sense to you? Don't answer.

Actually, point sparring is closer to reality than full-contact. You train for points, and points are exactly what you get. Not like training to kill, and then stopping at a TKO. :p

Point sparring is self-reinforcing. Fighting is self-defeating. Pick up a dictionary, folks. :rolleyes:

Happy New Year! :)

With the exception of techs, the strategy, entropy and unscripted nature of fighting is nothing like either. If you do MAs then you are training to fight first and foremost. All the esoteric BS is relative, and many never, ever gain anything but some sense of understanding their physicality as it applies to a limited format--- like sparring. Sparring is for beginners and grappling arts where you need the feel of your opponent. Sparring in the striking arts is for gaining Ma-ai (combat distance), and becoming acclimated to getting hit. it is self-defeating at the higher levels and trains many, many bad habits. Self-preservation has nothing to do with sparring at the higher levels.

Sparring in tournaments is very self-defeating, but if you think that point-sparring is more real than full-contact then you have only point-sparred. Even the greats like Joe Lewis and Bill wallace stated the fact that when full-contact came about, only a few point-guys could make the transition. Different animal. Still fighting is a starving, maniacal grizzly, nhb is a gloved and muzzled black bear, full-contact is a mean chihuahua and sparring is a cute little kitty!

Wow, there are a lot of folks on this forum who are young, inexperienced or just none-too-swift. Just b/c you say it or want it to be true doesn't make it so. So oh-fuc k your o-pinions if they are based on feelings vs. reality and no-how.

Go train smart and properly and don't think that sparring is even the beginning of the remedy for wimpitis! It's one very limited tool. Research, diligence and work, these are the keys. Lates...

[hatebreed]

ok so you do all this traing for one fight then you get badly hurt and can't train no more something that you love to do is now gone

[hatebreed]

Originally posted by Machimurasan


With the exception of techs, the strategy, entropy and unscripted nature of fighting is nothing like either. If you do MAs then you are training to fight first and foremost. All the esoteric BS is relative, and many never, ever gain anything but some sense of understanding their physicality as it applies to a limited format--- like sparring. Sparring is for beginners and grappling arts where you need the feel of your opponent. Sparring in the striking arts is for gaining Ma-ai (combat distance), and becoming acclimated to getting hit. it is self-defeating at the higher levels and trains many, many bad habits. Self-preservation has nothing to do with sparring at the higher levels.

Sparring in tournaments is very self-defeating, but if you think that point-sparring is more real than full-contact then you have only point-sparred. Even the greats like Joe Lewis and Bill wallace stated the fact that when full-contact came about, only a few point-guys could make the transition. Different animal. Still fighting is a starving, maniacal grizzly, nhb is a gloved and muzzled black bear, full-contact is a mean chihuahua and sparring is a cute little kitty!

Wow, there are a lot of folks on this forum who are young, inexperienced or just none-too-swift. Just b/c you say it or want it to be true doesn't make it so. So oh-fuc k your o-pinions if they are based on feelings vs. reality and no-how.

Go train smart and properly and don't think that sparring is even the beginning of the remedy for wimpitis! It's one very limited tool. Research, diligence and work, these are the keys. Lates...




this is what you above rigth well let look at a great figther like ali he was the best boxer of all time look at the price he paid for it he can hardly talk so if you want full contact than go right on
to ouote you on this "Go train smart and properly and don't think that sparring is even the beginning of the remedy for wimpitis! It's one very limited tool. Research, diligence and work, these are the keys. Lates..." but you forgot one thing that make a figther a figther it the mind all this train with out a focus mind your training is bs

[hatebreed]

Originally posted by FatherDog
I don't really have much to say about the point, since SevenStar has already done a pretty good job of pointing out the fallacies in the argument.

I just thought I'd mention that Hatebreed is absolutely one of the worst bands I have ever heard. hatebreed is one of the best underground bands around

[SevenStar]

A focused mind and a good flying backfist will make you a good fighter?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by hatebreed
oy dude i do live in the bronx and i do do sport karate because it has the safe and usefull way to learn figthing skills even in kung fu they teach you to point sparrr first "you must crawl before you walk"

So, you point spar FIRST, because you have to crawl, right? first implies a basic - a beginning. From there you move on to more advanced things. But, yet and still, point sparring is THE way to train, right? :rolleyes: you're contradicting yourself

[hatebreed]

ok i learn that to be the best one must train hard right no that not it you must train right to be the best point sparring is good for street figthing do to one thing timing it teachs timing if you use a back fits and it no good it the timing in full contact you hit hit hit and hit untill someone fall this is real fullcontact figthing what you call ful contact is heavy point sparring:mad:

[SevenStar]

:rolleyes: