Grappling with training knives....almost blinded!

[Ryu]

Hey guys.

Well first and foremost, I'm not blind, and my eye is perfectly fine. I'll get that out of the way first. :)

I was training some more "street" type scenarios tonight, and was practicing a live drill where me and my buddy would grapple like normal but at some point he would pull out a rubber training knife to stab, slash, etc. me all over. My job was to see or feel him go for the knife, see it coming, control the arm that had it while raking, clawing, gouging, his eyes, throat, headbutting, elbowing, etc.
We did this for a couple rounds and both he and I did pretty well at it. (We did get stabbed MUCH MORE than we would have liked, but with the aliveness of the drill we did pretty damm good.) Near the end I was able to really control the knife hand without recieving any real "cuts".

Well we went at it again, and began grappling. He put me in guard, and I suddenly saw him go for the training knife. I controlled his hand, but somehow we stood back to our feet, and continued to "spar" the scenario out on our feet. I took some grazing "cuts" to muscle part of my forearm (tendons and arteries facing towards me and not the knife) And managed to catch his slicing hand, control it, and come in for some knees, headbutts, and finger jabs.
He tried to switch hands and stab my back, but I caught his arm and slammed him down to the ground. I kept control of that arm so he couldn't use it, and mounted like I had done before. I began throwing some elbows and gouges, but made a BIG mistake. :) I got overconfident. I literally let up on the training because I was so pleased with my grappling, and "knife survival" skill on the ground...... and then it happened.

I let go of his hand for a brief half second, and he instinctively, (and by accident of course) stabbed upwards and struck me right in the face!! :eek:
The training knife actually cut my skin a bit, and gave me a slightly bleeding cut just centimeters under my eye. I thought he had poked me right in the eye, but my reaction (which I'm really pleased with I guess) was to simply smother him, control the knife, and finish him off. I only checked my eye after I had complete control of him. So in that respect I didn't freeze at all even though I was unsure how bad my injury was.

My eye is fine. He missed it by literally a centimeter. I do have a small scratch that will heal, but I'm damm lucky it didn't hit my eye, and I'm an absolute idiot for not taking proper precautions. From now on I wear large goggles, or a face mask ALWAYS when I do something like that.

Anyway, learned some cool things about myself tonight. When I get injured and don't know the severity of it, my reaction is to get the guy, not freeze.... and that's great. However, I learned a good lesson about humility. And respecting even a "fake" blade........


Ryu

[Xebsball]

So you kinda "died".
Its cool, huh :D

[Ryu]

Yeah. :D

[TaoBoy]

Thanks Ryu. I think there's something in that for all of us. ;)

[Serpent]

*note to self*

Use gun on Ryu, NOT knife.

[LEGEND]

Ryu...buy this ASAP!!!

http://www.allblackbelt.com/shihancage.html

[Felipe Bido]

*note to self*

"Use BAZOOKA on Ryu"

[Xebsball]

*note to self*

"Use GEISHA on Ryu"

j/k dude :D

[Ryu]

I'm just glad I can still SEE the Geisha..... :D

Ryu

[friday]

Good on you Ryu. :)

i reckon i would have screamed "MY EYEEEEE MY EYEEEEEEEEEE - i'm blindedddddd i can't seeee anymoreeee!!!" :(

and rolled around on the floor crying like a baby...

i really ought to fly to japan and train at your places.

and learn some japanese and mingle with the locals ;)

[Ryu]

Here's a sound clip I recorded of this very training session.

Ryu's knife sparring (http://www.eventsounds.com/wav/invinc.wav)

[Neurotic]

On of those clear goggles you can get at the hardware store with the elastic backs is always good when practicing weapons..

Only costs ya $5.

Interesting story tho!

Neurotic

[Kinjit]

Interesting story... Just wondering, how flexible are those rubber knives? In my historical fencing study group we only spar with wooden daggers so full head protection is a must. In the beginning we didnt have any fencing mask so we were limited to body strikes... When the masks arrived everyone were taking hard shots to the head alot, so that was a bit of a wake-up call.
IMO any weapons sparring without a helmet seems a bit unrealistic to me, but perhaps its not always practical...

[Merryprankster]

Note to self. Use Sevenstar on Ryu...

[bob10]

We don't like using rubber knives for training as they tend to restrict the type of work you can do. I've also found that people react better to metal knives. I had some aluminium training blades made for me, and they work very well.

However you should always start out working slow with knife training. My teacher advises working close range against-the-body stuff to start, as it gets everyone more used to working with the blade.

It's also good to use butter knives sometimes, they give you a different feel again, with not too much risk of injury.

At an advanced level we do use live blades - I think you have to at some point if you are truly serious about knife work

[ewallace]

We use "Oakley" style glasses/goggles in class. They keep you safe and you don't feel like a doof like you did wearing those mammoth saftey gogglers in 8th grade shop class.

[Shisio]

What a great training story! Except for the eye part ;) I think just for fun I'm gonna get drunk with my friends, give them fake (hopefully...) knives, put on blind folds, and start knife fighting while grappling!

[Stacey]

that live knife training is fun.

Wear some crappy good will "White" coloured clothes, then get a wood tanto and coat the bottom with lip stick.

Then do your live training. Look at yourself when your done. Its scary.

What even scarrier, is when you adjust the knife attacker so that he's not doing aikido overextenda stabs. Have him keep it at the hip and snap cut.

Suddenly it gets harder. Ground grappling with knives is even scarrier. Suddenly it doesn't mean ****e that you are about to sink a perfect choke. Its all about an arm joint lock. You can even forget about leg locks. j

You have to be tai chi smoothe and spontaneous with the chin na.

[psycho monk]

Well Ryu ,
You have just proven how limited and defenseless grappling is how hope you can now see the light for if that were real we would of heard about it in the paper.

As far as myself i use live blades in training because it truly teaches you how to respect the knife.

[Stacey]

"Respect the C-o-c-k-" Tom Cruise in that one movie.

[Ryu]

Originally posted by psycho monk
Well Ryu ,
You have just proven how limited and defenseless grappling is how hope you can now see the light for if that were real we would of heard about it in the paper.

As far as myself i use live blades in training because it truly teaches you how to respect the knife.


Actually, what I found was that fighting against a knife is much easier in the grappling range if you know what to train for. The ground aids you in pinning the person and his knife hand so that it is much more difficult for him to cut you.
During our practice session, it was the "on foot" defense against the knife that was the hardest to defend against. We don't thrust knives, we slash and fake, and whip it at each other. While it's possible to catch the attacking arm, and follow with eye jabs, rakes, headbutts, etc. It's almost impossible to do so without getting cut..... and most of the time bad.

I felt much more comfortable taking him down, and actually did quite better once on the ground because he had no footwork to cut and stab with as much ferocity as he did when he was on his feet.
Remember that we did a lot of rounds of this, and I faired QUITE well in that range.
The reason I got "cut" (and now have one of those movie-ish little "scars" down my brow and cheek :D ) is because I got c0cky and lost respect of the knife for a split second down there.
That's all it takes to make a fatal mistake. Standing OR on the ground.

Ryu

[Xebsball]

If i had a knife id put some nasty poision on it

[psycho monk]

Ryu

If you found it difficult to control him toe to toe then by the time you got him down , you would have already been stabbed to death. So just because u did a few rounds dont act like your the only one who knows the knife i train with live knives and we also do fakes and slashing as a matter of fact the knives i train with are 2 long 8 inch butcher knives which once belonged to a late sensei who unfortunately passed away from the nisei goju Ryu karate system. I train in Southern Shaolin Kung Fu and am very comfortable at stand up knife defense. Oh yes and before anyone asks I have been in real confrontations with the knife because I am a professional bodyguard (not a bouncer) and once myself and another bodyguard got into and the coward who was a 3rd dan in Japanese Karate(im not exactly sure what style karate he did) Pulled out a boot knife on me. So I understand Ryu that u feel comfortable on the ground but if you can not take him toe to toe , by the time you get down on the floor you will stay on the floor

[KC Elbows]

He didn't act like he was the only one who knew anything about knife, he was just relating his experiences in an honest fashion. God forbid we allow that, other people might start doing it, then it could become epidemic and spread to other forums.

[psycho monk]

Had to be from Kansas KC elbows I feel Ryu can talk for himself. Ryu knows what i am telling him and fully understands whether he admits it or not that grappling can not and will never be a complete martial art becuase it is to limited. And one must be able to com****ably handle themselves toe to toe especially with a knife

[KC Elbows]

Well, that really had nothing to do with what he was discussing. However, if that is what you wish to talk about, hey, whatever makes you "com****able".:D

Have you ever seen **** Apache: The Bronxe?

And I'll talk for Ryu whenever I want to. I'm not worried. After all, have you seen his crappy website?:D

[Ryu]

LOL, calm down, Psycho! :D

I'm not saying (and never have) that grappling is an ultimate complete martial art. :) I simply stated that as a good grappler I was far from "helpless" in my range against a knife. Also, I never said it was impossible to go toe to toe against a knife, just very difficult. I WAS able to capture and control the knife hand toe to toe, but took some cuts here and there.
The only time I didn't get "cut" was when I took the fight to the ground. I was able to clinch him though ONLY because I was able to grab the knife hand during our toe to toe session.
So I in no way "ran in for the tackle" :D I agree that such a tactic against a knife would be possibly the stupidist thing to do.

But, once I had control of that arm...... taking him down WITHOUT recieving cuts was quite easy....
Once on the ground, it was indeed easier to "follow" where that knife was going.

I'm definitily not the only person who knows about knives! :eek: I don't know where you got that. I'm rather ignorant compared to some of the really good knife fighters out there. I'm the first to admit that.

Remember please that my "style" is really JKD.... and not strictly "grappling" or "bjj". Though I enjoy the range very much and have done a lot to familiarize myself with that range.

Ryu

[David Jamieson]

ever tried using a felt marker pen? leaves marks where you would be cut.

rubber knives are good training tools just for the safety factor alone. recognition that real cuts cause pain that in turn imobilizes in some cases is key to training with rubber knives.

Training with real steel is pretty hard core psycho. Takes a long time to be able to do that safely. not the solo stuff so much as the two man free style attack/defend scenarios.

how long you been doing that?

peace

[Stacey]

xesball, you are one of my favorite psyco's.


Poison? I think it would be more dangerous to your self. Besides, what about when you forget about the poison and use the knife to cut your steak? HMMM. What then?

A kunoici ring, with poison well would be good. Or a little syringe. How much would that freak someone out. They with a knife and you with a syringe full of godknowswhat.

[psycho monk]

hey Ryu ,

no offense man its just i get tired of these fruity grapplers thinking there better than kung fu , when they never really fought kung fu. I was also ticked off by lil KC who for a second thought he was your barbie doll (or maybe still thinks).

HEY my buddy Kung lek,
whats up dave, your right it is pretty difficult doing it with live blades, I have been doing the live blade training for about 6 years but i have had my injuries with it once , I took on 3 guys using blades and attempted to use one as my shield and when i grabbed him and controlled his body i had control of the blade but then my hand slid from his hand onto the blade and cut my hand which in turn led to him dropping the blade to see if i was ok and dropping it on my foot , still got the scar OUCH!

Hey KC,
Please dont call your mom and tell on me I promise i wont make fun of you. (YOUR NOT IN KANSAS ANYMORE)

[Ryu]

Not a prob. I'm a guy who tries hard to "find the cause of his own ignorance." ;) So that usually means I'm too busy trying to make myself strong and keep guys from knocking or choking me out, than to worry too much about who I'm "better" than. I want to be better than myself yesterday. :)

KC's a cool guy, and a long time poster.
He's as much of a smartass as I am, but has a vehement jealosy about me and my Asian groupies.... :D

Ryu

[KC Elbows]

"I was also ticked off by lil KC"

Cut back on the coffee.:D

If I have spoken enough with someone to know that they aren't walking around trying to come off as the highest source of knowledge in the land, and someone acts like they are, then I'm gonna disagree, especially if the person being discussed has done absolutely everything he can to be good to those around him. If that makes me a "barbie doll", then fine. There was a time that was called being a stand up guy.

BTW, never heard the Wizard of Oz quotes before. I'll have to share that one with some other Kansas residents. They're always looking for fresh new humor.:rolleyes: :p :D

Ryu,
Thanks for the kind words, but be careful. You don't want to be a "barbie doll".:rolleyes:

And yes, I am jealous of your asian groupies. I attempted to have a harem of kansas groupies, but the dental bills were too high, and they kept getting mad when I'd discuss evolution. Plus my wife got sick of cleaning up after them, so we had to let them go.:D

[TaoBoxer]

I like this thread for a lot of reasons...

About 7 years ago when I was in SA I had a cop buddy who was obsessive about training. All he cared about was the realism factor. We started doing knife defense with packs of 5 felt tip markers.....

Round 1, we both had Green, round 2 we both had Red, etc, etc. Then, we would go Emptyhand VS Knife, Baton VS Knife, Knife Vs Handgun (BB gun of course) etc, etc, etc. It taught me a lot about the reality of the blade.

I also make rubber and aluminum training knives at a machine shop. I have been selling them for about 6 years.... They are machine-made, very accurate copies of live steel knives....