Wing Chun hard sparring ideas. [Archive]

Mr. Bao

10-29-2002, 12:56 PM

red,

I don't know how to describe power drill with words but I will do my best. Duncan Leung and my teacher Alan Lee, we have certain exercises which we called power training, which usually means building up explosive strength.

For example, there is something which call "shock ups", which is a plyometric push up that you shock yourself up and landing with your arm straight and pushing your shoulders out and your hands are in sun fist position; the pressure is on the last three knuckles. This requires powerful shoulder power, not so much with your chest. You always have to keep your core strong for this one. Usually, after this, we punch x ray paper for speed for about a min.

There is more, but here is one power training drill. I hope this answered your question.

Chuk Hung

10-29-2002, 02:17 PM

Mr. Bao,

From your post, I see you follow a different methodology of Wing Chun. The exercise you call "shock ups" may be detrimental to the health of your shoulder joints. They may not have any negative effect on you now, but what about the long term after-effects? The shoulder joint is fragile enough, constant impact to that joint is not good in my opinion. You should check with your physician.

Power drills creates and trains tension. Which contradicts the basic tenet of Wing Chun, which is relaxation in movement. It conditions the body to be in a constant state of tension. I spar on a regular basis, but I adhere to the principles of the system. Power generation is from the ground via rooting. Along with development of proper body mechanics.

Power drills may fall into the realm of boxing and karate. Just my opinion.

CH

anerlich

10-29-2002, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
What are some good training practices in terms of hard sparring that can be done to train wing chun?

Wallbags and the heavy bag are meant to simulate hitting a human body hard. The dummy can also be used this way.

I on occasion like to do focus pad training or proper sparring at all ranges (although this can get violent).

I like thai pads and mitts as well. As for sparring getting violent, that's a tautology at some level at least. You need protective gear to reduce injury risk, but at some time you have to expose yourself to hard contact for physiological and psycological tempering.

posted by chuk hung:

The exercise you call "shock ups" may be detrimental to the health of your shoulder joints.

Yeah, and doing too much walking hurts your feet.

Presumably Mr Bao's teachers have been doing this for some time without detrimental effects, and they regard the practice as beneficial.

I've been told by various internet WC experts that my lineage's version of the basic stance will result in major knee problems. I've been doing it for 13 years, my Sifu for 28, my Sigung for about 45. I've yet to come across any student with knee problems in which this is a contributing factor.

Suffice to say, "where's your proof?"

It conditions the body to be in a constant state of tension.

I strongly doubt that the plyometric exercise described will have this result. Rather it teaches one recruit maximum tension in a short space of time.

Power training and the ability to relax do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Mr. Bao

10-29-2002, 03:13 PM

CK,

Meet up with me and I will show you that doing shock up isn't so bad as you describe. I think it isn't so bad and have increase my punching power is much success from this exercise. I am not a big body builder type dude and this kind of power trainer doesn't build up muscles like some exercises. By the way, Anerich has a point about exercises and the Ma.

[Censored]

10-29-2002, 04:33 PM

You should check with your physician.

Don't bother. No doctor in the US will tell you that this is safe. That's OK though, because they are only ignorant doctors, and not martial arts experts. ;)

wingchunalex

10-29-2002, 04:47 PM

do lots of conditioning (ie running, sprinting, weight lifting). practice footwork in all directions. with drills you wouldn't really change them because your sparring should reflect your drilling. you should be able to do everything that you do in drills in hard sparring with practice. working the heavy bag is one of the best things you can do. it works well for conditioning, footwork, and power.

10-29-2002, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Chuk Hung
From your post, I see you follow a different methodology of Wing Chun. The exercise you call "shock ups" may be detrimental to the health of your shoulder joints. They may not have any negative effect on you now, but what about the long term after-effects? The shoulder joint is fragile enough, constant impact to that joint is not good in my opinion. You should check with your physician.

My orthopedic surgeon and physical therapists would have a cow if I did that. Bursitis is flaring up just thinking about it.

Shoulders and knees are fragile joints even for those without inherent problems, let alone the orthopedically challenged (like me).

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

yenhoi

10-29-2002, 05:03 PM

Quote Chuk Hung:

Power drills creates and trains tension. Which contradicts the basic tenet of Wing Chun, which is relaxation in movement. It conditions the body to be in a constant state of tension.

--

Silly, silly, silly, silly-talk.

Quote Chuk Hung:

I spar on a regular basis, but I adhere to the principles of the system.

--

What does this mean?

Quote Chuk Hung:

Power drills may fall into the realm of boxing and karate. Just my opinion.

--

Odd.
Obviously, I agree with anerlich, I just wanted to flame.

UltimateFighter:

I cant really think of anything better for a MAist then hard sparring. Bloody noses, broken ribs, bruises, bleh, are all part of the game. The less padding the better.

10-29-2002, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by yenhoi
I cant really think of anything better for a MAist then hard sparring. Bloody noses, broken ribs, bruises, bleh, are all part of the game. The less padding the better.

Yes, the most effective state to be in for fighting, self-defense, or continued practice is injured. :rolleyes:

We obviously live on different planets.

TTFN,
- kj

yenhoi

10-29-2002, 05:18 PM

I didnt mean being injured was good, but one shouldent shy from sparring simply because there is a chance of being hurt. I rarely have more then a bruise or two from my weekly training, and I sparr regularly.

:D

10-29-2002, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by yenhoi
I didnt mean being injured was good, but one shouldent shy from sparring simply because there is a chance of being hurt. I rarely have more then a bruise or two from my weekly training, and I sparr regularly.

:D

Thanks for clarifying. Perhaps our planets are in the same solar system. ;)

Regards,
- kj

yenhoi

10-29-2002, 05:24 PM

On being hurt and hard sparring:

Dit da jow.

1 sip will make you a WC master in seconds. :D

Chuk Hung

10-29-2002, 05:44 PM

KJ,

It seems we are both on the same planet. I have read many of your postings within this forum, you are the voice of reason. I have been training in martial arts for a great length of time. There were periods of inactivity due to injuries from improper training. From that, and physical therapy, I learned the limitations of my body. Train smart, and you will continue training to a ripe old age.

As a side note, I agree with your interpretation of the Wing Chun system. It seems we follow a similar methodology. I have met people, and touched hands, who have trained with your sifu, Kenneth Chung. I would enjoy an opportunity to meet you if I am ever up in your area.

CH

Chuk Hung

10-29-2002, 05:52 PM

Yenhoi,

I spar regularly, light to full contact. I do not shy away from it for fear of injury. Injuries are part of the game. That is not the issue of my posting. My primary inquiry was the danger of doing "shock ups" on the shoulder joint. It may work for others, but not for me.
The years I put in, and the injuries (tendinitis in my joints and rotator cuff are some of them) taught me how to train properly.

That was over five years ago, and I have not had any since that time.

CH

Chuk Hung

10-29-2002, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by anerlich

Yeah, and doing too much walking hurts your feet.

Presumably Mr Bao's teachers have been doing this for some time without detrimental effects, and they regard the practice as beneficial.

Walking is natural for human beings. We do not do "shock ups" as part of our daily life. Unless you would like to try it.

Originally posted by anerlich

I've been told by various internet WC experts that my lineage's version of the basic stance will result in major knee problems. I've been doing it for 13 years, my Sifu for 28, my Sigung for about 45. I've yet to come across any student with knee problems in which this is a contributing factor.

Suffice to say, "where's your proof?"

What does your version of the basic stance have to do with my initial inquiry? I do not know how you sit in your basic stance. I am not an internet WC expert. There is no right or wrong way.

anerlich

10-29-2002, 07:00 PM

Walking is natural for human beings. We do not do "shock ups" as part of our daily life.

There are plenty of things in WC we do not do as part of daily life. I do a number of plyometric and tendon strengthening drills as part of my training. No damage as yet.

What does your version of the basic stance have to do with my initial inquiry?

Iy wasn't an inquiry, it was a statement of opinion that Mr Bao's Sifu's training was unhealthy.

My point was that some people (look in the mirror) take it upon themselves to tell other people what training practices are good or bad, whereas in truth as long as one is careful and keeps an eye on their goals,

There is no right or wrong way.

You have elucidated my point. Thank you.

Mr. Bao

10-29-2002, 11:49 PM

CK:

You have to develop some joint strength to really punch. I mean your wrist, elbow, and shoulders should have the strength to support yourself and then some. If you want to play wing chun with me since you are in my neck of wood. You will see that I am not tensed up or muscle headed person. However, after doing some shock ups tonight. My sifu commented to my sidai that before I met him I had forearms thin as a girl and couldn't do one shock ups. lol.

Oh well, if we practice too soft or too hard, we are ignorant of
wing chun totally. I believe we need to be relax first then blow up like a bomb when the time is right in doing wing chun techniques. Not necessary in chi sao, because chi sao isn't fighting but a drill for refinement of our structure and basic concepts of wing chun and etc.

If you want to meet up and I am free after 4pm on the weekend,
that is after class in flushing, we can meet up in chinatown in nyc for some food. I know I am always hungry after a wing chun class.

churn-ging

10-30-2002, 12:48 AM

I am having a hard time pictureing your "shock ups." Are they like knuckle push ups? When you do them, do you push up off the ground so that your fists are off the ground and then you land on them with your arm straight and elbows locked?

Also, do you know any exercises to help develop power in the wrist?

PQS

10-30-2002, 01:28 AM

One of the drills that we have started recently is you have 3 people, 2 holding pads and one attacking the pads, the guys with the pads move towards you at 45 or 90 degrees angles and you attack the pads using proper footwork and stances for a minute then swop over,
U.F. you may be doing this already, there are also mini circuit type drills incorporating pads and blitz defence, which originate from W.T. in Denmark.
regards
Peter

Merryprankster

10-30-2002, 03:33 AM

Power drills creates and trains tension. Which contradicts the basic tenet of Wing Chun, which is relaxation in movement. It conditions the body to be in a constant state of tension. I spar on a regular basis, but I adhere to the principles of the system. Power generation is from the ground via rooting. Along with development of proper body mechanics.

You've clearly never done plyometrics of any sort, thrown an implement (track and field) of any kind or done any sort of explosive (olympic) style weight training ever. Relaxation is key to proper execution in all three of these endeavors.

You've also VERY CLEARLY, never boxed. A tight boxer is a slow and tired boxer and a slow and tired boxer loses. Badly.

10-30-2002, 06:27 AM

Originally posted by Chuk Hung
Train smart, and you will continue training to a ripe old age.

At my age, that's the only valid option. ;)

I would enjoy an opportunity to meet you if I am ever up in your area.

It would be a pleasure to meet you. Please do let me know if you're ever up and over this way . You can reach me via email any time; PM's don't work as well since I rarely check for them.

Thanks for your kind words.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Mr. Bao

10-30-2002, 01:34 PM

Churn:

There are many ways to develop your wrist. You can get a rolling pin. The width should be thick as someone's arm and attach it to a bleach bottle and do wrist extension and flexion.

You can also get an iron bar and do some figure eight movements this should develop your wrist some.

Good luck

Merryprankster

10-31-2002, 03:17 AM

A little off topic maybe, I don't know.

Could somebody please tell me why UF asked for "hard sparring," ideas and got padwork or limited two man drills?

YungChun

10-31-2002, 05:53 AM

Put on the gear (minimal on hands forearms - try NHB gloves - use the headgear), and have partners that studied other arts attack you using their experience from the other systems, boxing, wrestling, etc. - no Wing Chun.

This can be done progressively, having them start out with simple direct attacks and leading up to more complex fake/combo type attacks as you get more comfortable.

This will work well if you can find or have good people from whatever art they studied and better still if they have little or no Wing Chun. The latter will provide a more natural reaction from them as you work on your attack/counter attack.

PQS

10-31-2002, 06:38 AM

For U.F.
Have you been to Fight Club? Theres one on Sunday in Wimbledon.
Regards
Peter

UltimateFighter

10-31-2002, 07:40 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr. Bao
[B]CK:

You have to develop some joint strength to really punch. I mean your wrist, elbow, and shoulders should have the strength to support yourself and then some. [b][quote]

If you want wrist strenght. try practicing hook punches (yes, the wing chun hook) on a boxing bag rather than just chainpunches.

Avoid elbow strikes on a heavy punchbag however as the shock can danage the spine.

yenhoi

10-31-2002, 08:06 AM

MP: you troll. ;)

Sihing Tom

10-31-2002, 12:55 PM

Ultimate Fighter,

First, you must have a steady practice of focus mitt work to train distance awareness, footwork and hand cooperation / speed. Train kicking a shield to develop kicking power and balance. Have the person holding the kicking shield to mover around. Heavy bag work develops punching power.

Second, you must spar. I mean spar with people who are better than you. Find the best non-Wing Chun people to spar with. Karate, other Kung Fu styles, Boxing, Muy Thai, Grapplers, etc.
They are non-predictable, giving you totally different variables to work against. This will really test your Wing Chun capabilities.

And do not forgot cardiovascular training.

Good luck!

Sihing Tom

mun hung

11-04-2002, 12:25 PM

Shock-ups are not as dangerous as one might think. You do need a certain amount of conditioning and training before you're able to execute them correctly without any injury.

They help to build explosive power in punches, short range power generation, they build and test your punching structure from your fists and wrists all the way up to your shoulders and back, and the conditioning of knuckles depending on what surface you're using. (hardwood floor, marble, even concrete) Not for the faint-hearted and like everything else - there's a hundred and one ways to do it wrong. But when you do it right - watch out!

tiger_1

11-04-2002, 12:45 PM

my friends im thinks must important about sparing idea its like first: wingchunger must have some level for start to sparing , im have many sparings and im thinks good sparing its not only with wingchungers but with onthers fighters too if you have opportunity with mens of kung fu , mens of derivates , good sparing with people tho its not from world of m.a. its good too ( but road its not to make of wingchuner good fighter or somting naber) - just friendly tiger_1:)