How can a person train to be a real fighter

[wckf]

This is an offshot from another thread where sparring was being discussed as a form of preparation for the street among other things.

My basic reply was that it was almost impossible to prepare for the streets since there are too many variables to take into account (muti attackers, guns, knifes, bottles, location, ect.., any combination there of).
Bottom line is we can't defend ourselves against most of the scenarios. And I'm talking about life and death survival, not about a situation where you can walk away from.


While sparring is better than not sparring. But..
Just like form isn't sparring or self defense, sparring isn't fighting (fighting for you life).
Sparing can help with conditioning, timing, distance, ect.
but can it really prepare you for a real life and death confrontation ? I'm not sure about this.

Interestingly, someone brought up Mind Intent.
I also think this is key to survival. But I think Mind Intent is more along the lines of someone's personality. So how do you train for this and do you want to train this ?



What do you think ?

[Walter Joyce]

You fight.

This means there is a good chance you get your butt handed to you a few times. There is no getting around it.

If you want to swim, you gotta get wet.

Not trying to be a wiseguy, just getting to the point.

[HispanicPalm]

wckf

Most of what you said makes sense and you are right sparring is not fighting but, it's a really useful tool to develop the things you addressed and more, sparring gives you an idea of what works not only while sparring but also makes you aware of your strong suits and what needs refinement in combat. it also trains the warrior or killer mindset (as my sifu would say) needed in combat and it's really good for breaking the fear barrier that would most likely hurt you more than anything in a real fight.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

In my opinion.. forms link to sparring.. sparring links to fighting.. all of which are dependent upon conditioning body, mind and spirit.. Ultimately, the training, including sparring, trains the mind to stay calm and focused whenever the real deal unfolds.. the more you spar, the more likely you are to maintain composure during a confrontation.. Most of us have had the unfortunate experience early in our training to be overwhelmed by the adrenaline rush, when all of the training seemed to disappear in a haze of rapid, shallow breathing and stiff responses.. finally, after enough experience the sparring ring becomes comfortable..

Mind, intent, Yi, etc.. are abstract concepts whenever violence erupts.. my personal strategy is to empty the mind and go with the flow, with sufficient training and experience the body/spirit already knows what to do, and.. the mind usually gets in the way.. As was mentioned before, somewhere along the way you have probably had your butt handed to you on a platter, but that's how you learn to weather the storm, to stay in there and survive..

Like anything, you learn from experience.. don't go to the game with a book and video under your arm.. invest the time and hard work, collect the scars and lumps and pray you never have to put it all on the line.. but, if you do.. put it ALL on the line..

Be well, train hard.. but train it all.. body, mind and spirit..

[HispanicPalm]

wckf

Most of what you said makes sense and you are right sparring is not fighting but, it's a really useful tool to develop the things you addressed and more, sparring gives you an idea of what works not only while sparring but also makes you aware of your strong suits and what needs refinement in combat. it also trains the warrior or killer mindset (as my sifu would say) needed in combat and it's really good for breaking the fear barrier that would most likely hurt you more than anything in a real fight.

[taijiquan_student]

Of course free-fighting is not a life or death situation. It does help train everything everyone else has mentioned, including what my teacher emphasizes a lot, which is mind-intent (this can also be developed in solo practice as well). While it may not be "real", there's the chance you could get knocked out, get your nose broken, etc. It's real enough, especially if there is no real protective gear or padding on your hands, that to develop the martial skill everyone talks so much about, you gotta do sanshou (full-contact free-fighting, not point-sparring).

[wckf]

Yes, sparring hard full contact is good practice.

But honestly in a life and death encounter, I won't worry about taking a few shots, getting my nose broken, finger broken, knuckle ect... I'll be too busy trying to kill the other guy. (again this is 'one on one no weapons scenario')

But this Mind Intent thing. How do you train this and isn't this really a matter of personality. Some people fold under pressure while other are at their best. Also is this something you want to train if the side effects are extreme aggressiveness or something like that when odds are we will never encounter a this situation.

Food for thought.

[Waidan]

Sparring, drilling, and even forms-work done with dilligence and intent all contribute to better performance in real-world fight situations. None of them bear resemblance to a real fight, but if the movements and "combat mentality" are trained to an instinctive level, they'll be there for you. Mind you, intent is the key...going through the motions and giggling while you dance around the kwoon will get you nowhere, there should be a certain amount of despiration in your practice.

That's my no-nonsense, toughguy post for the day. :)

[HuangKaiVun]

If you train PROPERLY, you'll be shown methods of reflex training that prepare you to respond naturally in the right way.

Not only that, you'll train methods that teach you how to take a hit without going down - or at least avoid the really lethal stuff without getting killed in the process. These methods are often the same as the one in the previous paragraph.

However, very few people are willing to go through the trouble to train this way. Most folks see it, try it for a while, and then dismiss it as "fake" because they never really even stepped up to the plate. Even Siu Lum Tao of Wing Chun gets dissed this way, especially by some that dare call themselves "sifus" of Wing Chun!

The reality of violent combat is that no person can anticipate every scenario that arises. One has to be able to adjust spontaneously on the fly. Good kung fu trains that adjustment reaction, bad kung fu does not.

For generations, real kung fu has kept hordes of practitioners from getting killed by their opponents. Darn straight it works.

[taijiquan_student]

"But honestly in a life and death encounter, I won't worry about taking a few shots, getting my nose broken, finger broken, knuckle ect... I'll be too busy trying to kill the other guy. (again this is 'one on one no weapons scenario')"

I agree. But, sanshou (sparring/free-hands/whatever) will get you used to being hit. Being hit in the head or face is a big shock.

"But this Mind Intent thing. How do you train this and isn't this really a matter of personality. Some people fold under pressure while other are at their best."

It's really something I can't describe--partly because you have to feel it and not talk about it, and partly because I'm not very good and just beginning to work on intent. It is a certain EXTREMELY intense quality of mind you develop in the form and solo training, then can bring into sanshou. It's the difference between just doing the form and visualizing the opponent in front of you, and really really knowing that in your form, your hand is going through the duifang's face, hitting through to the wall behind them (duifang is the other person). It's truly feeling that you're deflecting their strike, that in the form you could go into any other movement at any time. This is getting way too hard to explain.
People have different personalities, but I think strong mind-intent can be developed by anyone who wants it--keep in mind I don't really know what I'm talking about here.

"Also is this something you want to train if the side effects are extreme aggressiveness or something like that when odds are we will never encounter a this situation."

My teacher's said many times that the people that do sanshou and train in this more serious martial manner are much LESS violent and likely to get into a fight than someone who hasn't, because they know what fighting is about and how people can get seriously hurt.
The mind-intent you want to develop is intense but it doesn't make you violent or extremely aggressive. My teacher's teacher (he's about 90 now, from Shanxi) once told my teacher (he's from New Jersey)that you should practice as if there was hate in your hate, but there shouldn't be true violence or hate present.

Real mind-intent and martial spirit is probably the hardest stuff to talk about over the net. Sorry if my post makes no sense at all.

[HuangKaiVun]

One more thing:

A practitioner who has been properly trained is far less likely to fold under pressure because he knows what to expect and has practiced 1000000 times the proper responses successfully.

Those who fold under pressure usually have very good reason to fold.

I as a performing concert violinist tell people that 99 times out of 100, the reason people fold onstage (or in the ring) is because of inadequate pre-fight preparation.

[Empty Fist]

Each posture of a Tai Chi Chuan form has a martial application. When you do the form, visualize yourself fighting an opponent. When you learn the whole form, breakdown 4 or 5 postures that you feel that you are good at (e.g. single whip) and repeat 1,000 times until you can do those postures without thinking. . When I took judo and jujitsu, I was told that many jujitsu masters would only focus on 4 or 5 techniques (the bread and butter techniques as they were called) which they felt comfortable in applying in a self defense situation.

Push hands training will help you understand some of the martial applications and principles of the form in a friendly competitive situation. In San Shou training, you will learn how to apply the form in a fighting situation. Your body will also get use to taking blows and hits in San Shou training.

Hopefully by the time you are done learning the form you will be more focused and relaxed (a key in being able to react quickly, both in mind as well as body). Keeping a cool head during a violent situation in my opinion is half the battle.
;)

[Internal Boxer]

"My basic reply was that it was almost impossible to prepare for the streets since there are too many variables to take into account (muti attackers, guns, knifes, bottles, location, ect.., any combination there of).
Bottom line is we can't defend ourselves against most of the scenarios. "

Good observation, although systema does all this and more such as getting attacked in a car on a chair etc etc. Check out the link and speak to Rob Poynton or Dave Nicholson if you want further info.

www.systemauk.com

[wckf]

So sparring gives you :
1. timing
2. conditioning
3. strength
4. proper technical response
5. grace under pressure
6. ability to absorb/roll away the punch


But I ask if these are any of the quality you need in a real fight.
From personal experience, I know that when I'm mad and scared, I get an incredible rush where most punches if they don't knock me out /kill me won't matter much, won't feel much and won't stop me from going after him.

I'll be willing to take two to give one. It wont' be fancy or pretty.
I'll be so scared and angry the techniques will be bare and raw (won't be too concerned about proper body alignment or maximizing my punches, punch thru the target et al!).
Punch with which ever hand is free and however I can get it to him. If the hand isn't free then the elbow, knee, teeth... (point being, I won't care about the type of attack as long as it is an attack).

I'd be going on pure adrenaline(?) so that conditioning wouldn't play a big role (I know this is debatable). But my best fighting performance was when I was angry and not when I was in best condition.

[TkdWarrior]

"But I ask if these are any of the quality you need in a real fight."

will to survive... simple...
adding to ur list wat sparring give u
7. Idea about Range...
-TkdWarrior-

[taijiquan_student]

Well, doing sanshou doesn't necessarily mean you won't get an adrenaline rush or be pi.ssed off, but if you don't train to develop those skills you mentioned, then of course you won't worry about them in a real fight--you won't have them.

That's my complaint with saying that sanshou isn't very important because you won't think about using those skills (distance, timing, etc.) in a real confrontation. If you don't practice those skills in sanshou, d a m n straight you won't be thinking about them in a real fight.

[wckf]

taijiquan_student,

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. I am questioning how important the skills gained from sparring practice would be in a real confrontation (same scenario).

Let me put it in another way. Mike Tyson is feared by many but is he feared for his
a) boxing skills - conditioning, timing, range, speed ect, ect, ect...
b) punching power
c) viciousness, savageness, badassness (you know what I mean).

Of course it is all of the above but if any one thing stands out about him it is his c).
He seems to want to hurt people genuinely.

How confident would you feel going up against another Mike Tyson without any boxing skills and without much punching power but stilled had the c) aspect to his fight.

Ofcourse this assumes that his weight and height is exactly same as yours.

[taijiquan_student]

Hmmm. A giant of a man, who ain't so bright, intent on ripping me apart. I'd either try to put him down, or run like h e l l. Most likely run...fast.

Oh wait, you said same heigth and weight. So basically, a 145 lb. madman intent on ripping me apart. If I couldn't run, I would try my best keep my cool and hope that his wildness would leave holes and openings. If you can't run away, and they're trying to kill you, you have to put them down hard and fast--deal with their strike (if they throw the first strike), mow them down, get their throat, stop their heart, stomp on their knees, etc. Now, if they were as big and strong and Mike Tyson, I'd probably just die.

I can see what you're getting at. That is why I am starting to see why developing your own intent is so important, not just being able to do the techniques.

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by wckf

c) viciousness, savageness, badassness (you know what I mean).

Personally, I think that wording is inaccurate.
I see it as "doing what needs to be done to win/survive."

One of my Sifu once told me the wise thing to do in a fight:

"If you got a half-brick at hand, throw it at the guy and/or try to knock him out using it."
If you succeed, you have done good Kung Fu.
He said in the Kwoon we train attributes/abilities that we can use in a fight.

Cheers.