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IRONMONK
10-29-2002, 12:21 PM
I have seen some senior students & instructors have bigger guys push on their double lan sao in C2 stance.
I have been trying to figure out how they do this-now from my knowledge of physics for the body to stay at rest- the person in the stance must exert a force equal and opposite direction to the force exerted on them.But i dont understand how they equalize the force of a bigger and stronger person?Can anyone shed some light on this?
And how is this done?i had played around with this but kept losing balance to just a little force-what is the secret behind this?

regards,

Faze.

Atleastimnotyou
10-29-2002, 01:24 PM
sounds like the person in the stance is matching the force with their root and structure.. and also at the same time redirecting the opponents forcre into the ground. This comes from TRAINING... and lots of it. Train your forms

taltos
10-29-2002, 03:07 PM
When you have proper balance and the right skeletal/structural alignment, any force applied to your balance or center of gravity can be redirected into the ground. As atleastimnotyou said, this comes from training, A LOT. When you are able to do this (to have your sihingdai push on your stance without moving you), then you truly have ROOT. A lot of newbies see the stance and see that there is very little movement in the first form (legwise) and assume that there must not be any trainging going on legwise. Wrong. You are building a strong and stable platform from which to launch your upper-body attacks.

Happy training! Once it starts to "click" you will be amazed at how rooted you can become.

-Levi

AndrewS
10-29-2002, 03:26 PM
Faze,

check a very nice article by Robert Chu at <www.chusauli.com> regarding structure.

No amount of intellectual knowlege will replace training these skills, slowly root will 'grow' if you work dilligently on it, practice well, and condition your body properly.

IMHO, this ability is part of the 'little idea' of the first form.

Don't worry about heavy pressures at first- work light, and get someone who can do this to help you out. Fix the feeling of getting it right in your memory and return to that kinesthetic awareness each time you work with direct 'rooting' drills.

The best way I know to start showing someone this stuff is to start with light pressures at the hips and just above the pelvis, then moving up around the body to the chest, neck, and head, letting off to let the person being trained feel the difference between leaning and developing this structure.

You can replicate this process without a partner by giving yourself these pressures with the mind while standing, moving your intent around your body.

A good teacher should be able to pass the basics of this along in a few hours, and from then on it's a whole lot of refinement.

With 2-3 years of dedicated work you should have the rough cut of decent structure and structure in motion.

Good luck.

Andrew

wingchunalex
10-29-2002, 04:58 PM
is a immovable stance even needed. from my expereince not moving will get you killed in a fight. plus having a immovable stance goes against wing chun and kung fu principles of not meeting force with force. in wing chun you are supposed to shift and turn. use the turning stance instead of trying to learn how to support a big guy pushing on you. then they fall offbalance, wouldn't it be better to be good at that then learning how to push (support them) back.

Atleastimnotyou
10-29-2002, 06:48 PM
duh you don't just stand there and resist, you absorb what you can and then shift before it becomes to much. that example he gave is just an exercise to test your root. you wouldnt do that in a real fight

kungfu cowboy
10-29-2002, 07:09 PM
from my expereince not moving will get you killed in a fight. So that means either you are dead or you killed someone in a fight?:p

Mckind13
10-30-2002, 09:25 AM
Hi,

Forve vs force is not against Kung Fu.

Standing in one spot will not get you killed.

Both have a proper plave in Wing Chun Strategy!

Check this out...

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_root.html

David McKinnon :D

Mckind13
10-30-2002, 09:26 AM
mE Not Typpping Vell Eh...

I'll run the spell check next time

:p

David

S.Teebas
11-01-2002, 07:10 AM
.But I don’t understand how they equalize the force of a bigger and stronger person? Can anyone shed some light on this?

Look at the size of your arms, and look at the size of your body. It’s your choice as to which one you want to use.

If the bigger guy is using his body also, you wont be able to stop him (providing skill level is the same). As he will be projecting a greater mass at you than you are at him. If he is only using localised muscle then you will be able to walk straight through him (while punching of course, if a real encounter).

To do this effectively you’ll need a well aligned structure, linked body to your COG and focus this at your opponents unbalancing point inside his body. Easier said than done, lots of SLT required before you can accomplish this! Good luck in your training.

IRONMONK
11-03-2002, 04:08 PM
thanx guys for the replies!!!I really enjoyed that article on rooting/structure-never realised that the stance was so important!!!
As for being able to do this -i think it will take quite a while so i think i need to practise,practise,practise.......

regards,

Faze.

AndrewS
11-04-2002, 12:25 PM
Faze,

NO!!!

Mistake!!!

DANGER!!!

I've done that one!

Don't!

Look, most raw beginners I can show the basics of this too, and someone with a year on the form and footwork of Wing Chun should have the choreography enough that the stance won't confuse them while they work on this torso stuff.

Get some physical sense of this, feel what someone decent feels like when they do that, get a training partner to be able to feel that, get them to help you execute the basic, then memorize how it feels and have the partner feel what it feels like when the guy you think is pretty good thinks you have something half-right, *then* go work.

If you just work and hope you'll get it, you're gonna spend a bunch of time practicing the wrong way. Perfection ain't coming fast, nor is competence, it'll take years, but take a minute and make sure you're on the right road before setting off on something.

Later,

Andrew

IRONMONK
11-09-2002, 01:48 PM
hey Andrew,

I fully understand ur point and i will take ur advice coz it makes sense to train correctly.Thank you very much for the warning!

Laterz,


Faze.

AndrewS
11-09-2002, 01:53 PM
Faze,

you're welcome. Trust me it's a warning fraught with the frustration of have run down blind alleys for years, before starting to feel like I'm getting the beginning of being right.

Later,

Andrew