Other Internal Systems

[Walter Joyce]

I'm just curious from the people who visit here: what other systems do you consider to be internal, or an internal external mix? We are all familiar with the big three, taiji, xing I, ba gua, and lo he ba fa, or water boxing, and even cotton boxing. But what other internals is anyone studying?

I'm not looking for "every traditional Chinese martial art is internal at the highest levels" for an answer. Rather, specific examples from your training, and an explanation why you think it is an internal art.

Thanks

[Waidan]

I think you'll see a lot of votes for Bajiquan. I don't practice it, but from what I've seen it has a strong internal component. Oh, and given what I've read of Yi Chuan I think it makes the team also.

[Kumkuat]

As for the comment that all chinese martial arts become internal, that's obviously false. Most people have this notion that when a martial art is internal, it becomes this ultimate art where we can blast people away by tapping them with our fist. I think people get confused and should say that all chinese martial arts become really good at a high level. This means that an high level external martial artists can beat a high level internal artist and vice versa. But an external art cannot become internal just suddenly.

Anyway, to stay on topic, I went to my old teacher a few months back to talk and stuff. My old teacher, at that time, recently trained briefly with Ma XianDa and got to learn his flavor of his tongbei. Well, from his information and also from Yan Gao Fei's article on Ma Family Tong Bei, it does seem that their brach of tong bei is the internal-external mix.

Here is the way Ma's tong bei system generates their power. I'm just gonna copy and paste part of Yan's article.

1. The chest exhibits large open and close movement with breathing synchronized (lungs/breathing and rib cage expansion/contraction are synchronized)

2. The whole spine (neck to tailbone) flexes (convex and concave)

3. Hip to heel rotation increases torque to generate rotating power

4.Body "up and down" movement increases momentum
Non-stop continuous movement corresponds with opponent's power.

Those concept are simliar to internal arts because of the use of whole body power. Also it seems to have some sort of store and relase thing going. But it doesn't seem to incorporate the six-harmonies movement and peng jing. But this is from my limited experience. Also, the article mentions that Ma's tong bei is based on pigua. So pigua can be another external-internal mixed art.

[HuangKaiVun]

I am a sifu in a method called "Seng Men".

Our footwork and mentality retains traces of old school Nei Jia principles.

For example, we have some of the "lost track" footwork of Mizhongquan and a circle walk not unlike Baguazhang and Tzuranmen. But there's more to the system than simple evasive footwork, and we share many traits with other legitimate "Nei Jia" (as opposed to the nominal Sun Lu Tang grouping) combat methods.

The power training of the style is rooted in its hard/soft breath control and fast combat mentality. This is a FIGHTING style, not a demonstration one.

My own "Huang Style", developed as an individualization of that which I've learned over the years, has many of the same combat drills and mentality of the true "Nei Jia" styles (e.g. circlewalk, body beating, etc. . . )

[Lowlynobody]

Yau Kung Mun is considered to be an internal system. It involves external forms that are based on Bak Mei to begin with and then the 3 highest level forms are pure internal. The first of which is Yau Kung Sup Batt Seurng Toi Jeung.

[miscjinx]

I may go back to it at some point, but Ki Aikido (as taught by my sensei) was pretty internal. The internal principles were not consciously understood by the class and not directly taught, but that is what the teacher was conveying none-the-less.

Not all Aikido is internal, most isn't from what I have seen. But Ki Aikido is far "softer" and thus tries more internal for the power than other aikido I've seen. There probably are others, but I haven't seen them yet.

[Walter Joyce]

Good response, thanks. Bak Mei, is that also known as White Eyebrow?

And why do you think these systems that have been mentioned as internal (everyone, not just the bak mei poster) are internal?

Again, thanks for the responses so far.

[Lowlynobody]

Yes Bak Mei is White Eyebrow. I didn't say Bak Mei is an internal system (though some do consider its upper levels to be internal or soft power) I said Yau Kung Mun was an internal system.

Check out http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/chi_kung.htm for some info.

[phantom]

Many people consider Systema an internal art. To learn more about Systema, go to www.russianmartialart.com.

[GeneChing]

Zhong Yun Long breaks Wudang Zhang Sanfeng in to eight gates: taiji, xingyi, bagua, baji, ba shen (8 immortal), xuan gong men, liu he & jiu gong (nine palace.) He says that this is by no means comprehensive, but just how it is classified by his Wudang lineage.

[Hai_To]

Pak Mei is considered an internal/external system. Probably due to the influences of both Shaolin kung fu principles and and Taoist kung fu principles.

Wu Mei is supposed to be an internal/external system as well.

In reference to Waidan's comment, I've also heard the Baji is an internal style.

This is just what I've picked up on doing some online research. So, don't quote me on this.

[Fu-Pow]

I think all real kung fu systems are internal/external.

In "external styles" pung, lu, ji, an = float, swallow, spit, sink.

Or so I've been told.

Not exactly the same but same idea.

[Stacey]

What complete system is not internal?

[Dachengdao]

Hi everyone!
I am the lineage holder of Dachengquan, which was passed on to me from the late Wang Xuanjie, who had inherited it from the founder Wang Xiangzhai (who also founded YiQuan). Dachengquan is characterized by jijizhuang which is standing meditation. These exercises are extremely beneficial to health and can even be done lying down, as in hospitalized or bed-ridden persons. Dachen also has shi li (stregth testing), mocabu (friction step), fali (exerting force), and tuishou (push hands). The push hands are a little different from tai chi tuishou, and looks like dancing almost. In addition to the health benefits, Dachen is extremely effective for self-defense as a stand alone style, or can be used to enhance any other wushu. I originally studied it to internalize my mantis and was really impressed with the excellent results in a short period of time. For more info. please check out my site. (www.dachengdao.com)

PS- Thanks to Monkey Boy who designed this icon for me. I really appreciate it and I love the way it looks! Great job!

[Walter Joyce]

Gene,
Thanks, great info. And thank you to everyone else. To take this thread a step further...what makes martial art internal?

I know this has been asked before, looking for an update.

[fiercest tiger]

check your private message box!:)

FT

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Whew!!, Walter.. Now that's the question!!..

I can only offer my opinion based on "my" experiences.. Whenever the art comes from "within", that is to say whenever there is no thought initiating the movements/responses, then i sense that the art is internalized.. yet, i don't think that, alone, makes an art internal.. I think that internal refers to a comprehensive understanding of "who/what we are".. understanding the mind/body/spirit relationship and drawing our power from each of those aspects.. Internal, to me, is whenever our training leads us to that place where we recognize that the training was just the key that opens the door, we come face to face with the real potential of being "alive".. It's kind of like when the scientisits unlocked the power of the atom.. such a tiny particle, such enormous power..

Not every MA is designed to express internal awareness, but most can be adapted to do so.. Hard, linear, joint-snapping styles break the rythmic flow essential for expressing internal power, but.. with proper attention could probably be adapted to flow and still preserve the signature movements of the style..

What makes the art internal? The dedication, perseverance and quality of instruction of the individual..Internal cannot be confined to an exclusive few secret styles (yet, it is most evident in the few styles that have dedicated their art to fully explore how the body, mind, spirit express "energy") .. Internal, like the Tao that it represents, is a deeper awareness of what it means to "live".. What makes an art "internal"?.. it s observable prowess as a martial art.. its total understanding of life, and the quest of the practicioner to master it.. Mercy and "benevolence" (i like that concept, benevolence)...

What makes an Art "internal"?.. The teacher, the practicioner, the principle of harmony between body, mind and spirit..

Just another perspective fron the Farside.. Be well..

[Muppet]

Imho, any system--health exercise or fighting art--that utilizes an active store and a passive release is internal.

Assuming I've understood things correctly, effort is used to store power (active) in certain muscles but the release of stored power power happens by letting other certain muscles go (passive), sort of like a bow.

Certain muscles/tendons act as the frame whereas other muscles act as the drawstring (and the hand that pulls the drawstring).

I don't remember which book I read it in, but I remember reading that it should feel like there are (springy) steel bands within your body.

[Walter Joyce]

So it seems we have a metaphysical theory and a physical theory going so far...I know you want to contribute out there, so step up.
:cool:

[fiercest tiger]

What makes an art internal is herbs, meditations, chi kung the fast forms is to release the ging that comes from internally outwards for fighting and help with fitness that internal wont give. So i believe all arts must have YAU KUNG, soft and hard powers, training of the body to keep it balanced.

Hope this was any help!

:(

FT

[miscjinx]

Good answers, but I find a defining characteristic is how they move and generate power.

Taiji is an internal martial art, but I have seen many people practice it externally - basically they don't move right. Too much tension, too much local muscle, not really using the center, disconnections in the body so it is not moving as a unit, etc, etc.

I was once told of this guy giving a lecture on internal strength concepts that while at the blackboard and writing, he turned around to find much of the class looking at him very strangely. He asked what was up, and they said they could see his whole body was even behind writing on the chalkboard - it was not just his arm moving, as most do.

This is a defining characteristic of what is internal. How you move. Externalists move differently than internalists. Most external martial arts styles incorporate internal ideas at higher levels - I remember my karate teacher telling me things he just discovered that I had learned in tai chi. Eventhough an externalists may become more internal, most of the time it is still a far cry from what an internalist does.

What it means to be internal is a packaged set of various characteristics/ideas/techniques - but the "are you moving right" portion is usually skipped; particularly by tai chi people. If you are not moving right - you do not have an internal martial art, it is dancing, perhaps a chi gung for health, etc. but not an internal martial art.

[Walter Joyce]

Before this thread slips off the page I want to thank you all for your response. They were all helpful.

I look at internal arts first as a separate paradigm of movement and strength, with specific physical attributes involving whole body power, the six harmonies, moving from the dan tien, and the use of relaxed yet ready body structure allowing the power to travel through our physical structure uninhibited by muscular tension. This list of attributes is not exclusive or exhaustive.

Its not that I disagree with the metaphysical explanations, but in many ways these ideas can also apply to wai jia as well, so I see this more as shared ground between wai jia nd nei jia.

Obviously I don't have this all figured out, or I wouldn't have asked.

Thanks again for your input.

[cha kuen]

Waterboxing is another internal style. check it out.

www.hsing-i.com there are mpeg video clips on it!

kung fu books (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Most of my posts include some metaphysical reference because too often Tai Chi is reduced to physical (bio-chemical) operations.. I have been taught to train the entire being, the body, mind and spirit.. Equal attention to each, at least for me, raises the whole being in a balanced approach to life..

I agree that the field of combat is the ultimate test of Tai Chi's potential.. particularly when one is so well trained that they can exhibit compassion and mercy while controlling an opponent.. Other internal systems such as QiGong cultivate and refine the energy we use in our Tai Chi.. Meditation, an internal system, prepares the mind to maintain focus during conflict and expand awareness of the energies involved in the dynamic experience of combat.. Chin Na, as taught to me, utilizes internal principles to put an opponent in a negotiating state of mind..

Iron Palm, Iron shirt, Iron Fist training are also largely internal, training the body to express internal principles at extreme limits.. As always, from my own perspective, we seek to enhance the internal systems with tried and proven techniques from whatever sources are available.. that is not to say we indiscriminately modify traditional systems, "tried and proven" is an daunting process of evaluation and consensus by others that a method or technique serves the internal systems in a complimentary manner. A revision or newly developed system should be evaluated and accepted as valid in principle and in practical application, in short, as HuangKaiVun says "does it work".. and, is it based on traditional "Internal" principles..

Internal principles are often difficult to observe, the coiling and rotating of the DanTien is not easily seen, but the resulting posture and power is quite evident.. The movement of the individual is smooth, flowing and graceful.. yet, somehow we sense the potential for devastating power..

Okay, so i ramble from time to time.. the point is that i don't limit "other internal systems" to only those "labeled" as such.. I look for the qualities that make any movement internal.. Sorry for the departure from topic, but.. true to form, i just follow my inclinations..

Be well..

[omarthefish]

Hello Walter.

Waidan,

BAJI ! ROCKS ! It's still an external style. I am as unrelenting as the spear of Li Shuwen on this point . (uh... I think that was 2 points :confused: . . . er . a spear has onyl one point, . . o.k as the spear of Li Shuwen AND the sword of Zhang Xiangwu. HAH ! 2 points!)

Fu-pow, you are wrong! Sorry I can't prove it. I just believe that qi is real and good body mechanics have been masquerading as internal power for too long.

Taijbob, Don't be shy about the metaphisics. Don't be fooled by my strident BAJI ! manner. ( I probably spend more time circle walking than training BAJI ! but don't tell Sifu. :( )

To reduce the concept of an internal art to gross physiology (not disgusting, the other 'gross') is to miss the point. Pinning down what makes an art internal is as hard as pinning down Yin-fu's centerline. The power is invisible. Felt but not seen. Even felt only when desired. Getting hit by an internal strike should be a bit like banging your head in the dark. That **** cross beam just plain didn't exist until it split your skull open.

The power appears out of the void and vanishes without a trace.

[Walter Joyce]

TaiChiBob,

Ramble on, please.

Omar,
Thats the spirit.

Everyone else...there is no RIGHT answer here, I am looking for OPINIONS.

Thanks,
Walter

p.s. do put thought into your response though.
:cool:

[RAF]

My apologiies to you Omarthefish, I missed the frowning face set before External in your post. My post is now simply a info commercial post advertising Baji as both internal/external.

[Sorry Omarthefish]

To reinforce Omarthefish's point, I don't think I would ever classify bajiquan as "external" or as "internal". Baji is about as external as is Chen's taijiquan, especially pao chuei.

Baji neigong, eating the sun, exercise is all internal and teaches reverse breathing. It is a form of hun yuan qi gong. The one baji pole shaking exercise incorporates heng haah breathing. Xiao baji is relaxed upper body with deep breathing to 8 structural points and fajing.

Baji's punching power can be conceptualized under the wu xing or five elements framework.

Interestingly, like Chen's taiji there seems to be some distant linkage to xing yi.

We have yet to even discuss the pigua training with emphasis on deep breathing and dog skin hand training. Liu Da Kai (six big opeinings) are the jiben gong form of the system and later integrates baji and pigua techniques in the execution of its applications.

Intent and mind are very, very critical for the upper levels of baji.

I think I would say that one either has complete or incomplete training in a system. Just like Yin and Yang, external and internal cannot be separated.

Even elementary spear training, da qiang, turning the spear over, can be co-ordinated with breathing and exemplifies complete chan si jing from the feet throught the waist out to the tip of the spear.

http://www.wutangcenter.com/bajipigua.htm

BTW, my teacher has a couple of Aunts from Xi'an and we visited in 1998. We did get to meet and dine with Ma Xian (Shan?) Da.

Who do you train under in Xi'an?

[Waidan]

Omar, I can't say I agree with you totally (though I'm hardly an expert on Baji...I just know what I see), but I dig your post. Some very good points and I love the crossbeam analogy.:)

[Stranger]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=10383

This thread contains some excellent posts by RAF on the subject of baji and piqua and their internal nature.

[omarthefish]

Thank you RAF. What I relly want is a scowling smiley with fire coming out of his eyes. :mad:

four classic 'levels' of Tajiquan energy:

gang - hard, rou - soft, you - rounded, hua - slippery

BAJI ! = gang !

So you get 'hard' power in it's purest form. My Sifu said if I learn BAJI ! well I've already learned 1/4 of taijiquan. No small achievement. I believe it is not internal because:

1. Sifu said so. :p
2. It's power is too apparant.
3. The 'I am training an internal martial art' mindset tends to turn folks into wimps who are afraid of sweating and feeling pain.

Back on topic, I think one of the keys to a true internal art is that the power is utterly invisible.


p.s.
Ma Xianda (in chinese his given name sounds like 'first strike':eek:) teaches not far from where I live. Next time you guys make it out here I'd love to meet with you.

There is also Ma Zhenbang (no relation) of that generation and my Sifu who is a lineage holder directly from Zhang Xiangwu but prefers to remain nameless untill such time as I am deemed worthy (read skilled enough) to act as his emmisary. That doesn't mean you couldn't meet with him though if you came through Xi'an.

[omarthefish]

p.s. just got started reading your posts on the other threads. Really good stuff.

[RAF]

Omarthefish:

I wish I would have known that when we were in Xi'an.

BTW, I love the dumpling houses and the Yang rou Pao mo--a great muslim/Chinese dish.

Please keep in contact. I also am trying to learn as much as I can about Zhang Xiang-Wu. I have learned a couple of levels of the Yang style taiji taught by Liu Yun Qiao and its decent but nothing radical at this stage.

Later.

[omarthefish]

no worries.

besides, I've only been in Xi'an since 2000, known my Sifu for a year and been a disciple for barely 6 months.

[Souljah]

what about liuhapafa ?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I learned the LiuHaBaFa Dragon set from WeiLun Choi.. quite the impressive form.. but only a fraction of the whole system.. It is demanding, dynamic and effective.. i would definately attempt the whole system if there was a qualified local master.. Check out the credentials of any teachers, there seems to be quite a few "misinformed" teachers out there..

Be well...

[Souljah]

the only guy I've been told is in the lineage and is supposed to be any good is some guy in Chicago.

[count]

Choi would be the "some guy" you're thinking of. ;)

Lucky for you to have gotten that from him TaiChiBob.

No one has mentioned Zimen (Word Gate Boxing) as an internal system:confused:

[Souljah]

erm, never heard of Zimen (where is it from? etc)

I didnt get the second sentance you wrote

Lucky for you to have gotten that from him TaiChiBob.
Is taichibob this choi from chicago>?
soul

[Walter Joyce]

Is that ziranmen? There was discuyssion of that months back on EF.
Thanks count for bringing it to the discussion.

[count]

No Souljah,

But TaiChiBob mentioned in his post to have learned some Liu Ho Ba Fa From Grand Master Choi. According to his profile TaiChiBob is from Florida. Florida is quite far from Chicago so it is lucky for TCB to have had the opportunity to learn anything from Wai Lun Choi.

Walter,

I was not refering to Ziranmen (Natural Boxing) which I believe has been mentioned in this thread already. I definately meant Zimen (Word Gate Boxing) which no one has mentioned. Funny you should make that mistake though. The teacher who has demonstrated word gate boxing to me was also a Ziranmen teacher. Both systems could be considered "internal martial arts" if you make such distinctions. Personally, I think it is the process and not the system.

[count]

You wanted a discription of Zimen, I don't really know much about it except, it was told to me that the system is 18 words that disolve into 2 in a fight. It reminded me of Peng, Lu, Ji, Ahn in Tai Chi Chuan. Each word takes more than a year to learn. It had a more distinct Shaolin flavor. I have a copy of the Masters personal book but it is in Chinese and my grasp is minimal. The diagrams show some interesting exercises though. I would only make the distinction between external and internal because the man who showed me was very old, (70's or 80) and he moved like a feather and hit like a ton of bricks. For an old man to perform like that he must have some excellent method of living.;)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Learned is perhaps too broad a statement.. i was fortunate to have spent 4 hours with him at a seminar during Tournament 2000 here in Orlando.. then, later several of us were even more fortunate to catch him in a vacant ballroom and get even more instruction.. i have retained the sequence but need much work on the "internal expression" of energies to get the flavor of what he was demonstrating...

Yes, i was quite fortunate.. and grateful for the experience..

Be well...

[count]

4 Hours with Choi is like 4 months with most others.;)

[cachao]

Hi everyone!

I Currently study with Sifu Choi and agree with the previous post that four hours with him is like four months with someone else, if not more. LIU HOP BA FA has a lot of great stuff to study. The best part about him is not only his martial ability, but his ability to teach martial arts. He's very inspiring. I know he still travels for demonstrations in the US and Europe from time to time so if you can catch him it would be worth your while. His web site usually posts any demonstration dates. For those that don't know the website is http:\\www.liuhopafa.com :D

[cha kuen]

waterboxing site.. www.sojournpast.com

kung fu books (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25)