Bodyweight vs Weight training

[Ford Prefect]

I used to be a staunch a bodyweight advocate. I though BWE (body weight exercises) were better for functional strength and had a smaller risk of injury, etc etc. I could do one-arm pull-ups/push-ups and pistols AKA one legged squats. I could do these in the truckload too. I used to laugh at the stories of body builders and powerlifters who would struggle with BWE's and also at my friends who lifted weights and couldn't do the BWE's either.

Then, I started lifting weights. After a while of training and being able to see things from both sides of the fence, I came to realize one thing:

Working up to squatting 400 lbs (an unimpressive weight) is a hell of a lot harder than learning to do the pistol.

While there are 300 lbs mountains of men who are the exception, this is generally the rule. In fact, I think that is the reason for the popularity of the whole BWE craze. It took me under a month to be able to do 500 straight Hindu Squats. That was perceived as some milestone; A great thing to build off of. Working up to squatting double my bodyweight on a barbell was a lot harder and more time consuming. Take a powerlifter who can bench 500 lbs and a guy that can do 200 hindu push-ups. I guarantee that the powerlifter will be able to train to do 200 hindu push-ups months or years before the other guy trains to bench 500 lbs.

The average person can reach goals in BWE a lot sooner and easier than with the weights. With weights, you spend time toiling (in public in most cases) under unimpressive poundages. You have to cycle exercises and poundages correctly in order to keep your gains going. You have to diet effectively in order to keep your gains going. Etc. Most of the time it will seem like you are making little or no progress, which is frusterating and leads to most people giving up the weights.

Because of this, I find it entertaining when people criticise weight lifting. It says that they have never weight lifted with any success which was due to either a lack of discipline or knowledge on their part. Oh well. They don't know what they are missing out on.

I am not advocating weight lifting as the be-all end-all. For general fitness, a mix of the two would probably be best. If you don't find weights appealing and have tons of fun doing BWE, then more power to you. I'll assume you won't knock weights though.

[Viper555]

I usually do weight lifting,BWE,WL,BWE,etc. every other day swithching off like that.It seems to be working fairly well but iv'e only beend doing it for about half a month so we'll see how it goes....

[Qi dup]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Take a powerlifter who can bench 500 lbs and a guy that can do 200 hindu push-ups. I guarantee that the powerlifter will be able to train to do 200 hindu push-ups months or years before the other guy trains to bench 500 lbs.


I think your right on FP.

[IronFist]

Ford,

Every once in a while I take a break from the weightlifting thing and go to BW exercises. You know what? Every single time I get weaker. I've tried a bunch of stuff, too... many of the things I did were taken from the manuals of the early 1900 strongmen, etc. While they did not always publish the most effective stuff, some of it is hard ::coughmaxaldocough::. Anyway, things like, as you mentioned, pistols, one armed pushups, sideways one armed pushups (do it except your stomach faces one wall and your back faces the other wall... your shoulder girdle is vertical instead of horizontal and your hand stays under your shoulder... I'm not sure I can explain it that well), one armed pullups, (well, I only worked up to ONE, but still)...

...stone warrior, the list continues. All of these things gave me mad endurance, especially stone warrior in regard to ability to sustain muscular tension, however.

But the strength always drops off. I never lifted weights until after I finished Stone Warrior, so I can't tell exactly how that compares, but I assume it's about the same because there's no maximal load being placed on the muscles.

I've been meaning to get up to the 500 Hindu squats thing, tho.

Dude, you know what's weird? Pistols don't work my quads very much... I can be fatigued from 10 sets of barbell squats to the point where I can't walk very well, and I can still bust out Pistols. Weird, eh? Either they don't work my quads very much, or I must be neurologically wired very effeciently! (funny tho, fresh I can max out at about 5 pistols, and after killing my quads with barbell squats, I can still get about 3). I dunno.

Alright, I replied to you. Go give me some help in the Main forum in the "discussion on weightlifting" thread. You know what you're talking about so I'm glad we almost always agree on stuff (at least on theory) :D

Haha.

IronFist

[ElPietro]

Just some honest curiosity here. Why would you want to be able to do 500 squats?

I am not mocking anyone with this, I am genuinely curious why you would want to be able to do this. I am confused, because generally, there is a happy medium between endurance, and strength, and 500 reps of anything seems to be quite an imbalance. Also, I don't see a particular benefit of being able to do 500 reps. I am a firm believer that training regularly is good...but you shouldn't train for 3 or 4 hours straight. Your body needs it's rest. So getting to a level of endurance where you can do 500 reps of anything seems to me somewhat counterproductive.

Maybe I have missed some point and someone can please clarify the premise behind this.

If you only need so much endurance to be able to train for a full session, I would think you would want to maximize strenght most after that. Since in a real fighting situation, if it only lasts for 3 minutes, you don't need to be able to go for an hour. And if you are stronger that will be much more benefit than being weaker but able to go longer.

Hopefully that made some sense...

[IronFist]

Hmm... I just want to be able to do 500 because my leg endurance has always sucked and if I get to that point I'll be able to say "hey, at one point my legs didn't suck quite so bad." I realize that at a number much lower than 500 reps you stop gaining raw strength from it, however.

But also, when all I was doing was Power to the People style lifting I lost so much muscular endurance it wasn't even funny (because I was stupid and didn't train for it).

Maybe I'll lower it to 300 because I'll probably start missing weight lifting if I stay away too long :)

And I try to avoid things like running because my metablism is already fast enough and I don't want to burn any calories I don't have to :)

IronFist

[Ford Prefect]

Hey EP,

It's one hell of a lung workout. I don't think it's too hard to do 500 bw squats from a strength POV. When I was working up to it, most of the times I had to stop were because I was out of breath or about to puke.

[SevenStar]

I think where people start to go wrong is that they don't realize that after so many reps, it becomes more of an endurance exercise rather than a strength exercise. Also, people always rant on about "functional muscle" and how weight training doesn't produce it. muscle is as functional as you make it. look at pavel, or at power lifters. people are too tied up in the myth that having muscle makes you slow and inflexible.

[ElPietro]

I'm not sure if you are doing 500 squats in one set or you mean over a series of sets. I'm assuming you mean over a series...so maybe 10 sets of 50 or 25 sets of 25, I have no clue, but that's what I'll assume.

Why not just use weight and lower the amount. How about 10 sets of 10 squats with say 2 plates. So you are doing 225x10, 10 times. Do this with little breaks in between, so your body can rest a bit and then go again. So now you will be able to go for a pretty long period of time with little rest lifting heavier weight. More of an "anaerobic endurance" rather than what I feel would be aerobic endurance at 500 reps. You will be using oxygen as fuel, not glycogen. I wouldn't consider it remotely anything close to a "strength" type exercise...if anything it may be catabolic in nature.

I am going to start incorporating this form of training soon. Only I won't count a set by reps, I will go by time. I haven't worked it out yet, but may do something like 5-7 sets of 15 seconds with 45 second rests in between. I'll use a moderate weight that I can move continuously for the duration...eventually with little rest between sets the last few I will be going much slower, getting less reps per 15 seconds. I think that this may be an ideal method of training for many martial arts type application. I will probably either cycle this stuff, or include this training at the end of strength lifting in an individual workout.

Just my thoughts.

[Ford Prefect]

EP,

Actuallu, I'm talking about doing all 500 in one long set. It usually took between 12-18 minutes to complete. I've read about the type of training you are talking about in a few periodicals and websites. It was always referred to as "density training". It's supposed to have the same effect as ladders. BTW, I'm pretty much strictly weight training now. I do calesthenics during off days to help recovery since they aren't intense but will pump blood into the previously worked muscle. I use sled pulling for the same effect as well.