Do Professional Boxers ever use Bilsao?

[Akuma]

I was thinking about this today. I didn't ask anyone in class because I didn't want to come across as disrespectful.

Firstly I'll say that I've never really seen much boxing...but from what I have seen, I don't believe I've ever seen a boxer use bilsao + simultanous punch. Do boxers use this move or do they have some kind of variation of it?

I'm talking about a bilsao to block a round punch..and punching at the same time.

If boxers don't use this move, then why the heck not?--what about in the UFC, has bilsao+punch been used in it?

I've been practicing bilsao+punch quite a bit and think it's pretty cool but I'm just wondering why I've never seen it b4 in stuff like boxing :confused:

[Merryprankster]

what's a bilsao? (I boxed. I might be able to answer the question. Or not.) Yuan Fen is a font of info here too.

[yuanfen]

Very good jabbers can use the equivalence of the biu sao to stop a punch from gaining power. Larry Homes in his prime did that.
(Loose relaxed shooting snapping movement)
Of course the body structure of most wc and most boxing are different...on weighting, role of shoulder, turning the foot etc. Using both hands however are not unknown to some good boxers. The problem is- its easy to cross the line and incur the referees wrath for holding and hitting- more so in the amateurs than in the pros. But then there are tricky ones-again, like Holmes in his prime.... not the current caricature who still fights on occasion.

[Akuma]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
what's a bilsao? (I boxed. I might be able to answer the question. Or not.) Yuan Fen is a font of info here too.

It's sorta hard for me to describe Merry but see this pic and this short clip.

http://www.wckfo.com.au/gallery/index.html
Look for the technique where it says "Defence against a round punch"



http://209.197.240.134/movies/tom/4-bil_sao/
This website is pretty cool and has a bunch of techniques..The way we do bilsao is a bit different from this place because from what I can see, his bilsao is more with his arm straight. The way we do ours is that the arm is a little bit bent with the elbow sticking out a little. (either that I'm doing it wrong in class, lol)

http://www.sifugrados.com/technique.shtml

[Akuma]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Very good jabbers can use the equivalence of the biu sao to stop a punch from gaining power. Larry Homes in his prime did that.
(Loose relaxed shooting snapping movement)
Of course the body structure of most wc and most boxing are different...on weighting, role of shoulder, turning the foot etc. Using both hands however are not unknown to some good boxers. The problem is- its easy to cross the line and incur the referees wrath for holding and hitting- more so in the amateurs than in the pros. But then there are tricky ones-again, like Holmes in his prime.... not the current caricature who still fights on occasion.

Thanks for the explanation yuanfen :)

What about in the UFC and in san shou, has bilsao + punch simultanous strike been used much in it? Because there are less rules and all that, they probably have?

[old jong]

I have seen Trevor Berbick (in his mid fourthys) use moves that looked a lot like bong sau,tan sau ,fak sau to win the canadian heavyweight title against a very much younger,bigger and muscular opponent.
I could swear he was using Wing Chun!

[yenhoi]

bilsao in english?

thanks.:confused:

[Mr. Bao]

It is from my experience that a bil sao (thrusting finger) used in the william cheung manner or similar will not stop a round punch or hook. Here is a test, wear a head gear that would protect your head. Play defensive and don't strike back only "bil sao". Ask your kung fu brother to really hook in your head or perhaps an objective person would do better. Tell him or her to do feints and see what happens. Can the bil sao stand up to real round punch? Test it out for yourself?

When I tried it with a real boxer. I got my head rocked. I tried in different distance and tried it in many angles. When the boxer friend of mine did it in broken time and beat, I was creating openings which wasn't too smart for my defense. I didn't know if it was hooks to my heads or body. Bil sao didn't stop a hook punch for me.

[canglong]

Mr. Bao
Are you sure you were performing the biu sao correctly and did you find something better suited to stop a hook or round punch?

[anerlich]

While I'm not sure the TWC Bil Sao is that good against a short hook as found in boxing, it certainly works against a looping hook or haymaker.

My Sifu often relates a story about a big guy who basically said the same thing to William Cheung as you say now. GM Cheung invited him to try it. The guy let rip; the first time GM Cheung was rocked slightly, and said something like "Ahhh ... OK" and invited him to try again. This time the guy broke his ulna on GM Cheung's bil sao.

Maybe you've just seen crap TWC. I invite you to check with GM Cheung personally, just make sure your medical insurance is paid up.

[Whoops ... I edited the post, 'cause I put fibula instead of ulna ... to many kicks to the noggin]

[Merryprankster]

I tend to agree here with Mr. Bao, Anerlich and Yuan Fen.

A good jabber ON THE OUTSIDE, can use his jab in a manner very similarly to this bilsao--he will jab the head or even the shoulder to jam the incoming rearside hook. A pivot jab would also function very similarly.

A good jabber on the inside is likely to get clobbered if he tries that tactic.

I've never seen anything like a bilsao in a UFC or PRIDE.

A short hard hook is unlikely to be stopped by the bilsao as I have seen it in the clips/pictures. I don't see where you have the shoulder stability (reinforced by your body's structure, of course) to stop a hook that far down along the bilsaoing arm.

If you adjust the intercept position slightly outwards and more upright rather than extended and move closer so the lever arm is shorter and more in line with your body you might could get it to work. Essentially, you'd be defusing the power and might take a slapping shot to your shoulder as you move forward while whacking with the other hand. You'd be moving inside the punch as you block and hit back I think. Then maybe it's not a bilsao...
I don't do WC so I'm not really qualified to comment.

I can see that it would be good against the roundhouse swipe. But a hook is a different structure altogether. Or more precisely, the roundhouse swipe has almost no structure and can be blocked easily, whereas a hook comes from the ground up and is reinforced by the big musckles in the torso, so your structure needs to be just as strong.

Can the bilsao do that? I have NO idea, I just don't think the distance is right in the pictures/clip presented. You'll have to ask somebody who knows :)

[yuanfen]

Can the bilsao do that? I have NO idea, I just don't think the distance is right in the pictures/clip presented. You'll have to ask somebody who knows
--------------------------------------
(Good points in your post. From what I have seen...many wing chun folks dont devlop good structure though they talk about it
and can be hurt by short hooks. Bil Sao can be effective when applied properly rather than ina way memorized from the form.)

[old jong]

Biu Sau can be applied inside or outside of a jab effectively or on any thrusting attacks with some practice....As many other Wing Chun motions!
I consider a tight hook as a side attack and treat it as such in practice. Fak Sau as in Biu Gee with a good Wu Sau can effectively deflect a tight hook if you don't want to turn to face the punch.
It is good also to practice deflecting punches with the hook formation but coming from all angles possible.Use Jum,Gan,bong,Gum,Fook.Lan,Jut,all of these can protect you and open good lines for attack.It is more a question of experimenting than theorising because the slightest change in the punch angle will change the defensive action.

Just my two worthless canadians cents.

[canglong]

Good points old jong and if I might add 1 more cent to the equation be mindful when watching videos of the upper torso only that in wing chun for every movement of the hand there is a coresponding movement of the foot (feet) to be emphasized as well.

[anerlich]

Good points yuanfen, MP, OJ.

Bil sao is a pretty versatile technique in that it will work against straight or wide looping attacks. Ir really isn't that good against a hook delivered from close range (which is from where every half decent boxer will throw it. Arguably the jab to the shoulder to jam the hook uses the same principles as bil sao, but that's debatable.

At the risk of being labelled a heretic, I think boxing defenses - bob/weave to evade, or take it on the glove/forearm with the "hair brush" type block, are much higher percentage defenses against the short hook.

In his WWCKFA days, my Sifu was once asked to fly to Melbourne to try out a couple of senior (but his junior) WWCKFA guys who had MMA/UFC ambiitions. My Sifu floored both of them with short hooks. When he got back to the kwoon he made us all practice defense against hooks as the standard teaching methodology seemed to have some problems. I think many are brainwashed by the "straight line is fastest so hooks are useless" propaganda, which ignores the very real efficacy of good hooks, rips, and uppercuts.

[taltos]

anerlich wrote:

I think many are brainwashed by the "straight line is fastest so hooks are useless" propaganda, which ignores the very real efficacy of good hooks, rips, and uppercuts.



I agree. IMO, it seems that people are concerned with "straight line is fastest to opponent" when in some instances (like hooks) it should be "straight line to neutralize the threat." If you hook and I punch, we both get hit. If you hook and I Taan Da (or Biu Da), you get hit and I don't get hit, but only if I properly identified and faced the threat right from the start. Good stucture or not - WC or not - a punch is a threat.

-Levi

[old jong]

Good point heretich...I mean anerlich! ;)
One thing puzzle me a little bit....Choy Lai Fut is full of hooks and uppercuts! Some are very tight and Wing Chun was it's biggest ennemy in the good old days!...(Well.that's what they say!) ;)

[anerlich]

Originally posted by old jong
Good point heretich...I mean anerlich! ;)
One thing puzzle me a little bit....Choy Lai Fut is full of hooks and uppercuts! Some are very tight and Wing Chun was it's biggest ennemy in the good old days!...(Well.that's what they say!) ;)

heretich ... good one! :p

One of my teachers learned both CLF and WC. The CLF guys say that a lot of what they do was designed to snake in, around over and under WC structure.

On here we hear a lot about how WC guys in HK kept besting CLF guys in rooftop fights. The CLF guys tell the stories rather differently ... both sides have their own myths and propaganda ... the real truth is probably in the middle somewhere.

[Merryprankster]

canglond--I don't really care what the lower body is doing. WHERE the bilsao contacts the hook is the problem. If it hits, as in the picture, below the elbow on the forearm, while the arm is straight the lever length is too long. The shoulder isn't stable enough at this angle and distance to effectively stop a hook unless there is a severe strength/mass disparity. You're probably going to have to intercept the hook above the bilsaoing elbow and move forward and actually make contact with the persons body, like in the jabbing example, to stop the hook.

These are just my observations. I could be wrong, and if I am, I'm sure somebody will tell me.

Shorten the lever arm by moving in, or bending the forearm up and outward slightly, to change the angle and increase stability and you've got something.

[Akuma]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Shorten the lever arm by moving in, or bending the forearm up and outward slightly, to change the angle and increase stability and you've got something.

Question for anerlich: In that pic, is that the only way to do bilsao or can there be variations like with what merry is describing here in quotes??? Like would what merry is describing be just a variation of bilsao and not a different technique??

btw thanx for the replies people :)

Cheers :)

[TwoManSaw]

Being a TWC Practitioner, we constantly drill and train the Bil sao as a main defence against hooks and we also use it against jabs and crosses depending on how your facing the opponent. I disagree with Mr Bao, because in my experience it works fantastic against circular attacks on the outside gate, I do agree with its limitations against short hooks and the tendency for them to wrap around your arm and smack you in the head. Given the luxury of a well timed response to a short hook I find that the bil sao can still be effective but you must turn with the punch and face your point of contact. That being said i often prefer to make contact with the punch and smother it whilst launching a simultaneous attack of my own.

[anerlich]

That pic is from my si-hing's website. That's Rachel Del-Brocco, 2 time winner of the Australian KF championships, defending against her husband Alfredo's round punch.

It's a textbook bil sao, but it's NOT a textbook boxing hook by any stretch (hopefully sibak Alfredo won't hurt me for saying that .:eek: ).

If bil sao is meant to contact the inside of the forearm, a good boxer's hook won't show you that much of the forearm. A boxing hook is closer to an elbow strike than a haymaker, indeed Jack Dempsey teaches it that way in his book.

Bil sao is thrusting energy, directed at the point of contact so as to occupy the path of the incoming blow. It's too close a semantic call for me to agree categorically whther MP's suggestions are really "Bil Sao" energy or not - though they are practical.

[vingtsunstudent]

for this technique to have a chance of working against a hook you are definitly going to have to adjust your facing and waist to greet the force, just as you would with tan for the same thing.
i'm really sorry and i know a lot of you aren't going to like this but i think that funamentally a lot of people here have not learnt the slightest bit about making these techniques work for themselves.
it's all about understanding and then using the ideas(concepts) and learning to adjust them slightly on every different situation, as no 2 will more than likely ever be the same. learning to use feeling through chi sau will be a big help here.
i understand that merryprankster may not believe this and i have no doubt that after seeing the things referenced that he should but i don't think i've really seen one post here yet that has let him know that much about the fact that anybody who really knows wing chun is not going to be just standing still and making themselves a target for a hook, before you get to that range i to just like a boxer will be using footwork, feet for kicks and my hands both at the same time.
unlike anerlich with whom i pretty much agree, i don't bob and weave but i am always moving to not let my opponent get into his rhythm, i like to play my game not theirs, i always have to laugh when people show there tolat lack of fighting and wing chun experience by the way they seem to make out that wing chun doesn't move around, not unlike a boxer to a degree when fighting- although people should not all get upset because i think that alot of this is probably due to their teachers never having fought for real that much, if at all.
remember simultaneous attack and defence, the other thing to remember here is that you have odviously already made a mistake or just didn't think(for what ever reason) and the opponent is to close.
can this technique completely stop the punch completely? maybe, maybe not.
are you still going to get hit? more than likely
did it stop you from gettin' knocked out and havin' your a$$ handed to you? hopefully
people who think that they will never be hit or hurt in a fight are delusional.
also rember you should also be countering at exactly the same time, so more than likely your opponent will also be hit(maybe and hopefully hurt to) and hopefully this is enough time to recover from your mistake and maybe even if your lucky make your opponent think twice about that using that technique again.
wing chun is not fool proof, as is any art.
just my 2 cents
vts

[Merryprankster]

easy there big guy--I know you're not going to stand there and wait for a hook!

And yes, that's exactly it--you have to turn to meet the force or the shoulder structure isn't going to be stable enough, or you can try to get inside the hook, and use a more outward type of blocking movement. I'm not sure that's a good idea. I wouldn't want to move into a hook without evading. Too much risk involved.

[vingtsunstudent]

hi MP
''and use a more outward type of blocking movement''
i know you don't really know or understand wing chun, so all i attempted was to give just this wing chun practitioners point of view.
i like the way you make people have a look at the way they are doing their art and it should be helping them to understand how to make what they do work for them.
as to the above quote, i just thought that you may like to know that i personally would never allow my blocks to move outward(however not being a perfect specimen it has and probably will again unfortunately, all you can do is try and continue to improve these things) as that allows for an opponent to take advantage of your movements should they miss or if the guy is feinting/faking.
the movement should always be moving straight foward to the appex of force so as not to become a strength issue if a block is needed. this also allows for the fact that if you think they are going to strike but don't and you start to move, you don't have to waste that movement by pulling it back, you can just keep it moving foward into a strike.(there aren't and should not be any wasted movements in wing chun)
one of the reasons the elbows are kept in and move straight foward from the centre so much in wing chun is that this allows for the block to not greet force on force whilst maintaing your whole body weight behind the block/strike and thus allows a much smaller person to handle the power of what may be a larger opponent.
naturally 90 percent of this perfect talk goes out the window when $hit actually goes down but with constant training, enough fighting and the brain to go back and learn how to use your experiences to make your wing chun and it's techniques work for you, these things are possible, it's like i said you just have to think.
well i guess that's 4 cents worth now.
vts

[Merryprankster]

Then it would seem to me, VTS, that you are left with moving in, or rotating as you suggested.

Is that accurate? Just asking! :)

[vingtsunstudent]

hi MP
like i said i have no problems with your questions, concerns or critisisms, they all add to better understanding from both of us, well hopefully that is;)
and yes you are correct on the moving forward part, however i could also be moving back.
now the tricky part to explain, as to the rotating we don't learn to turn like many others. we learn to use our waist to pivot with a straight and forward movement rather than a circular one.
this has to be seen to be understood and again then has to be felt to be even further appreciated, seeing the movemnt will give the illusion of of it being no different to simply turning however it is quite different.
when the waist is used in a circluar turning/pivoting fashion it is quite easy to either roll or flow with to take alot of the power away but when you can use it with a foward motion this becomes a very different fish.
here's a little trick to try and impress your friends with, if i can manage to impart it well enough.
get someone to hold a phone book or kick shield to their chest making sure their hands are at the top and bottom so as to be well clear of the strike and that they are standing close enough that it only requires movement from your waste/turn to be able to make contact as you won't be moving your arm.
hold your forearm horizontal to the ground at about chest/sternaum level(your upper arm should be at about 45 degrees down from your shoulder)
turn slightly off(again about 45 to your partner) and turn your waist in the cirlular motion you normally would and elbow stike the bag/book. don't move your arm though, use nothing but the power generated from your waist.
feel how heavy that is.
now, do it again but instead keep your waist locked as a single unit and pivot, try to visualize your waist driving in a straight line from that angle to a position straight through the person.(again don't move the arm at all, it is all done with the movement of the waist)
if i have explained this well enough for you to understand and you can do this, you should feel it is a lot heavier.
vts

[fa_jing]

To me, jabbing the shoulder is more like our wu sao (buddha hand) than our bil sao. And wu sao can be used against the shoulder or bicep to stop a hook. With gloves on, I think the best way to stop a short hook is to move away from it or try to beat it with a stiff jab. A hook against the body can be stopped with a gan sao. But, the hook is a hard punch to deal with in general if your opponent is in range. The best defense I know of against the hook to the head is from Northern Mantis, your forearm is placed about parallel to his and you grab the crook of his elbow as you make a lifting motion with your arm. It's kind of a cross between a bil sao and a lan sao, although my description is clearly inadequate. Finally, one that I used alot in sparring with gloves on is a vertical forearm against the opponent's bicep, this gives a greater margin of error than the wu sao, but brings you into the body to body range and often leads to a clinch.

[Akuma]

thanks again for the info ppl. :cool:

[Merryprankster]

VTS, the body motion you describe is very familiar to me, I think. It was the way I was taught to throw elbows in MT and also similar to the way I was taught to throw a hook, I think.

It's precisely what I had in mind when you said turn to face it somewhat. I think. After all, this is the internet :D

[YungChun]

The Biu Sao has a multitude of applications. I am not really sure if 'blocking a round punch' is one of its main purposes, although it can and does happen in practice. As far as Hooks, Shovel Hooks, Upper Cuts, I don't know if range is comparable, these (to me) being more inside moves where other tools/actions may come into play like elbows into armpits. Biu Sao in this application of round punch defense may be a slight stretch from pure WC theory and may not be ideal. The Biu is in part used to bridge; in part used to regain a lost centerline; in part used to close a gate; and in part used as an attack, etc.

Against a round punch, Cross, Ridge Hand, etc., the Biu Sao can be used to neutralize the energy of an outside circular or semi-circular attack. Biu does this by use of its shape and forward energy, which is generated by facing and stepping into the Center with the same side foot, this also creates a small angle off which moves you a bit further away from the outside attack and generates more forward power. When the circular attack comes in the Biu's energy is directed not sideways against the circular incoming energy:

==>><<==

But is directed at the base of the tool issuing the energy:

^
>>\\

Similar to the 'bicep stuff' where your punch is stopped by the defender thrusting a palm into the bicep or shoulder area of the attacking arm, which stuffs the incoming energy before it really gets going - if anyone has seen that.

In the case of the Biu this is similar in energy but the shape and structure allows the entire arm to fit into the curved tool of the opponent via use of the 'elbow out' position, when used this way - like a triangle placed inside a curved line with sheering energy - it can absorb or break a lot of energy. In any case this may not be the best use of the Biu.

Against a high gate outside curved or downright circular attack Wing Chun offers a couple of other options that may be more aligned with the basic theory of ‘The attacking hand defends.’

If we look at the Biu again we can see it closes the high outside gate - that's good. We can make it better by letting the Biu Sao close off the outside line but also hit the opponent, with primary import in the hitting of the opponent.

This can be done by using the tip of the Biu as a strike to the eyes, throat or the Biu can become a Deem (palm) and attack the high gate Center (head) while simultaneously closing off the outside gate. Against a circular attack this is often done with a cover on the far outside with the other hand as well as the lead step into the Center. But this structure is just as useful against a straight line attack that is still an outside gate attack. In this case the shape of the Biu (elbow out) will deflect the straight outside attack just slightly with the use of forward energy but without interrupting much of the opponent’s momentum. When this structure is used with an inside step and Centerline attack all the forward energy generated may be combined with the opponent’s momentum doubling up the energy that can be focused into his Center (head). This is ultimately done in one fluid movement using numerous Wing Chun concepts/tools in one move – that’s what WC is all about.

[Neurotic]

One way my Sifu will often explain that Bil Soa is often used as a 'feeler', rather than a way to neccessarily STOP an attack.

Primary example is a short, tight, hook which is very hard to get to the inside of.

Utilising the Bil Soa should give you the contact you need to determine that you cannot simply stop the incoming hook, and therefore should use footwork etc to let the hook pass.

Becuase Bil Soa is faily well extended, it should give you the range for this sort of reaction to be practical.

- Hope that made sense :o)

Neurotic

[S.Teebas]

...As far as Hooks, Shovel Hooks, Upper Cuts...


What's a Shovel Hook?

[Merryprankster]

I was taught a shovel hook as being a punch that is halfway between a hook and uppercut, with the palm down. You aim it upwards a little bit and you use the lower body movement sort of between a hook and uppercut. It's a very good punch for me.

[yuanfen]

YungChun and neurotic: A biu sao is a motion and not a limited technique- it can be used for many quite different things.

MP and Teebas: A shovel hook is a very useful weapon. Wing chun has an equivalent froma wing chun structure and dynamics.

[Akuma]

Originally posted by yuanfen

MP and Teebas: A shovel hook is a very useful weapon. Wing chun has an equivalent froma wing chun structure and dynamics.

what is the equivalent of a shovel hook in wing chun called?

[YungChun]

Originally posted by yuanfen
YungChun and neurotic: A biu sao is a motion and not a limited technique- it can be used for many quite different things.


Who said Biu Sao was limited??? I stated quite the opposite:



I wrote:

The Biu Sao has a multitude of applications.....The Biu is in part used to bridge; in part used to regain a lost centerline; in part used to close a gate; and in part used as an attack, etc.



Do people read and type or just type?

[YungChun]

Originally posted by Akuma


what is the equivalent of a shovel hook in wing chun called?

Hmmm, I would guess it would be called 'a mistake.' ;) But seriously, I am not aware of an equivilant movement in the system.

[canglong]

"I don't really care what the lower body is doing."

Mp ok now I can better understand where you are coming from.

[Merryprankster]

Canglong, had to read my post again--couldn't remember what came after that. :D

VTS had an answer I liked as well--you change the angle of the force by turning your body slightly. This means the weak angle of the shoulder no longer comes into play.

What I mean by "I don't care what the lower body is doing," is that as in the pictures, the bilsao is hitting the round punch as an inherently weak angle. Stick your arm straight out and have somebody push your fist across your body while you try to resist. It's hard, and it doesn't matter where your feet are or what they are doing--your structure is only as strong as your ability to keep your arm from collapsing. By adjusting the angle at which the force is intercepted--or the length of the lever arm, you reduce the stress on your deltoid and increase the overall effectiveness. I think. Just a body mechanics observation. Somebody is bound to tell me that you aren't just standing there, you're moving forward to or something like that--but that's my point--by moving forward you are decreasing the lever arm length and changing the need of the deltoid to do so much dang work.

[canglong]

MP -- once again I would differ with you in that I believe your ability to intercept an incoming force is dependent upon how true your structure is and not the reverse.

[Merryprankster]

canglong--I just said the same thing. We might disagree on how the structure is best set up, but we're agreeing, fundamentally, on the point.

I believe the lever arm is too long, as pictured. You don't. No big deal.

[yuanfen]

Yung chun : before getting huffy read your own tentative statement on biu sau, to wit:


I am not really sure if 'blocking a round punch' is one of its main purposes, although it can and does happen in practice.

[yuanfen]

Hmmm, I would guess it would be called 'a mistake.' But seriously, I am not aware of an equivilant movement in the system.
-------------------------------------
Of course that means it doesnt exist.

[yuanfen]

what is the equivalent of a shovel hook in wing chun called?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
It can and in some circles is called "hoi faan kuen"...but I pay more attention to wing chun trajectories, structures and dynamics than to names. I dont use it with a western boxing structure but a wing chun structure. Hope that helps.

[AndrewS]

Merry,

in my experience/understanding, you're dead-on right. If you let someone throw a good tight hook on you, and you let them get the line through their shoulders significantly off parallel to the line through your shoulders, the hook is gonna blow through an extended arm structure for precisely the reasons you mentioned, overloading the rear deltoid. There are some freaky body methods which *very* good people in various arts display for which this may not be the case, but those seem the exception more than the rule, and would probably not be advocated as decent fighting methods by anyone good enough to pull them off (if that makes sense).

That same biomechanic can be used against a hook if you're able to get the inside contact that folks are describing here. Make the contact from appropriate facing (i.e. readjusting to the guy as a he steps out to hook so those lines through each set of shoulders are closer to parallel- not the only play you can move to readjust, fwiw) and pull down with your lat, serratus, and tricep- or if you're really slick, sink your whole body weight. This should pretty easily overpower the shoulder apparatus connecting up the hook, displace it vertically off its arc, and hook your arm up to your own body so that the incoming force from the body behind the hook moves you.

Personally, I think the hardest part of dealing with hooks, uppercuts, overhand rights, etc. is visually recognizing that they're coming once you're inside the range where they can be easily landed (the guy I always think of when throwing this way is Joe Frazier). The tactile component of Wing Chun is a great strategy for dealing with this problem (and I view Couture's solution to Belfort to be an excellent example of this fighting strategy for beating faster hands), but handling someone once they're in close on you and not under decent control is very difficult.

Hooks, as I understand them, are lousy openers, and the best way I know to mess up someone's hook or uppercut is take over somehow on their setup.

Sleep-deprived and rambling. . .

Andrew
Later,

Andrew

[canglong]

MP I don't think we said the same thing. --"your structure is only as strong as your ability to keep your arm from collapsing." Again I disagree. It would be your structure that keeps your arm from collapsing under all conditions.

AndrewS are you calling me a freak, no seriously, if anyone or their lineage disagree with the concept and principles of Biu sao could you please give the chinese name for that method which you do advocate and the concept and priciples behind it.

[Merryprankster]

canglong--utter semantics.

shall I rephrase?

Your structure is as strong as the weakest link. AS PICTURED, the lever arm is too long to use the bilsao against a tight hook. The rear deltoid will be overloaded, the arm will collapse and you'll get hit.

Your structure SHOULD keep the shoulder from collapsing. The structure of the bilsaos I saw, provided to me, done in the way it was being done, I personally do not believe is going to cut it. Now, as VTS pointed out, if you turn into it slightly, or a lot, whatever, you're changing the force into something more like doing a push-up, which is very stable, biomechanically.

So, yeah, your structure should keep your shoulder stable, but the rear deltoids are the weak link in the pictures and use that I saw. Consequently, the structure is only as strong as your ability to stabilize your shoulder.

I'm 100% certain I'll be told that I don't know what I'm talking about. But hey, I've only grappled for almost 6 years. I have no clue about how the joints work and can be manipulated, and no concept of biomechanical structural overload.

I'm seeing what I'm seeing. If you disagree, fine, but it's a minor point--the structure SHOULD keep everything stable, but in what I HAVE BEEN SHOWN, it clearly won't.

[canglong]

MP ok I see what happened I was focused on the videos and you the picture. I was saying the principle in the videos could not be identified without seeing the movement of the feet to determine proper structure and you were saying the structure in the picture is just shot and so yes I agree with you in your assesment of the picture. Additionally I would like to add that the concepts and principles of biu sao like all others in WCK can only work when applied correctly.

[Merryprankster]

Actually, I was watching the video too and slowed it down frame by frame and it didn't convince me. That's what I meant by I don't care what the lower body is doing. It's the angle of the arm that concerns me because of the deltoid overload and potential collapse.

I do agree that with the "right structure," you'll stop a hook. I'm just not sold on Bilsao as it was being demonstrated is the right structure! :D

No hard feelings I hope!

[canglong]

Yes, yes as it was being demonstrated some of the key principles were not evident that need to be there in order for the biu sao to work correctly with that I couldn't agree more. No hard feelings taken.

[Merryprankster]

Cang,

Educate me--what needs/needed to be done. What would you recommend?

[canglong]

MP in the picture I didn't consider that biu sao as I know it so I would not comment on that but as for the videos I just could not see if the leg stance was wide enough to create the proper structure (meaning elbow on yin line) to support the arm. Other than that I thought the video was good just that it could have been better if they would have shown the entire body and not just the upper torso.

[Merryprankster]

Canglong,

How does a wider stance reinforce the elbow/arm at that angle? :confused:

Also, what do you see as a bilsao? How do you use it?

[canglong]

Mp I know biu sao as seen in the video as an intercepting arm. Not sure what angle you mean but there is no angle of the arm because it is alligned with the yin line for support provided you have a proper stance meaning your knee doesn't line up under your elbow but outside of it.

[YungChun]

Critical to making the Biu Sao, or any other movement in the system work is the position of the arm-elbow supported by the horse etc but this alone is not enough.

What allows the Biu Sao to stop-diffuse-redirect, a round punch or any other punch is the energy being released in the arm. The Biu-Sao like any other Wing Chun movement is not static it is moving it is releasing energy. The Biu-Sao means 'shooting hand' and the hand does just this - it shoots forward into the Centerline. The Biu is not simply placed there like a guard but is fired into the target. If no 'target' is found the Biu would fire and the arm would shoot out completely straight and then snap back. Normally the target of Biu would be the Centerline but some choose to shoot it into a round punch - fine. In the case of stopping a round punch it shoots forward into the incoming punch, potentially with the whole body moving forward as well - this cuts off the energy of the incoming at the source with proper contact. The dynamic is not just an arm out there in a particular shape supported by the body, instead the dynamic in Wing Chun is forward energy that is constantly issued into the opponent via strikes and/or 'bridges' which affords among other things the ability to steal balance.

At ranges where short hooks/upper cuts come into play the Wing Chun man should have already unleashed a barrage of straight line attacks to fill the 'emptiness' of an open center if there was one - if the Centerline was filled then energy issuing continues with that contact.

Those who have not even experienced the system can debate its validity with others until the end of time - but there will be no resolution. One would be better advised to actually try Wing Chun first hand before attempting to quantify its merits - to do otherwise seems to result in a waste of time and/or turns into just plain trolling after a while. It is quite difficult to translate energy into words - even pictures cannot relate the energy used in Wing Chun - it must be felt to be understood - preferably with someone who is actually good.

[Merryprankster]

Don't get touchy. I'm not debating WC effectiveness. It'd be like if you asked me to describe a sweep single. I'd try really hard to describe it, maybe throw out some vids or pictures, and then I'm sure you'd have some questions about what you're seeing/potential vulnerabilities/proper timing and use.

You answered the question quite well, I thought. The key for me was the forward movement. That makes sense, and provides the reinforcement necessary--you're jamming his punch, pure and simple, while moving forward prevents interception at a crappy angle.

Works for me.

Of course, if you'd rather take offense, no skin off my back.

[canglong]

My thinking is energy is implied in all these discussions but point well taken. As far as attacking centerline that is a constant for wing chun kuen but performing a single biu sao is not an invitation to someon's centerline. Which is a good segway back to the original question of do professional boxers ever use biu sao and my answer is yes.

[planetwc]

Probably that movement in Chum Kiu is what Joy is referring to.
I'd give you a reference around the other hands performed during the set right up to it, but for some reason I'm drawing a blank :(

Must be too early. Suffice it to say it comes fairly late into the movements and essentially the arm transforms into a shape that ends up being what you would start a shovel hook from.

Rotate the elbow down, Elbow pointing down, palm into fist, palm is "facing" your body. Now if the movement WAS (it doesn't in the set) to continue into a shovel hook you would just launch that fist upward into say underneath someone's jaw.


Originally posted by YungChun


Hmmm, I would guess it would be called 'a mistake.' ;) But seriously, I am not aware of an equivilant movement in the system.

[Akuma]

This pretty much illustrates the particular technique I'm talking about....see the video here (http://209.197.240.134/movies/tom/20-bil_Hook/) or the link below...


http://209.197.240.134/movies/tom/20-bil_Hook/

I thought I'd bump this thread up again becuase the technique shown here is very close to the one I was talking about initially.(It is the same infact although we were doing it more from a front stance and we had a little more foward momentum in our push but this is the same basic technique as far as I'm aware)

Cheers :)

The source of the video can be found on this website here (http://www.sifugrados.com/technique.shtml) :)

http://www.sifugrados.com/technique.shtml

[yuanfen]

Akuma- Boxers can throw one kind of a jab from their structure
which can be a functional equivaemt of biu sao-
can use it defensively or offensively.

Grados has done some boxing- so obviously he is adapting things.

[Akuma]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Akuma- Boxers can throw one kind of a jab from their structure
which can be a functional equivaemt of biu sao-
can use it defensively or offensively.

Grados has done some boxing- so obviously he is adapting things.

Do you personally think though, that(in the vid) would be an effective technique for protecting against a hook?

Or what would you do differently?

What do ordinary boxers do to prevent a hook? (Do they jab like a biusao as I think you were implying in your last post?)

Also, two other questions. When is it best to throw a hook?
Is it better to throw a hook only in combinations or just whenever I think there is a gap?

Sorry for all the newbie questions here. I've just started sparring last week so I'm trying to work out some strategies :)

At the moment in sparring we're throwing one or two punches that the opponent knows is coming, and then we throw a random punch. It's going good so far but I'm just thinking of ways to improve at the moment. Hmmm...