5 ancestors

[Arhat of Fury]

Can someone describe this art. There is a school in my area and I am curious what the trademark moves are, how it became and what part of china it is from.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.


Arhat of Fury

"Im goin back to my car"
"Get my gun"
"Shoot Everybody"

[dezhen2001]

wow deja vu... theres another thread on the next couple of pages about 5 ancestors im sure! :eek:

dawood

[Arhat of Fury]

i did look it up, but there was no real information listed, just opinions and OT questions.

Any takers.

[HuangKaiVun]

Ngo Cho Kun - a powerful fighting art and a huge influence on karate.

They generate power via their twisting of their hips and their toe-in stance tendencies. This is a very powerful muscle contraction method.

The "sam chiem" ("sanchin" in Japanese) is their primary method. However, their footwork and mentality is completely different from that of Japanese karate's sanchin set. All moves of ngo cho kun are basically situational adaptions of the moves in the sam chiem set.

At first glance, ngo cho kun appears to be strictly a stationary style. However, their advanced sets introduce methods of movement that allow the practitioner to cover great distances and groundfight when needed. Of course, everything is based on the fundamentals learned in the sam chiem set.

There's a book by Alexander Co that's extremely good. There's a huge amount of information there that can be gleaned via the practice of the material that book presents.

Like many other kung fu manuals, the true combat teaching is hidden out in the open for all to see - but only practice can make things become REAL.

[Arhat of Fury]

Excellent HKV,

Thank you for the info.(I always enjoy your posts, I like the more factual and less emotional approach)
Thanks again


Any other input?


AOF

[joedoe]

I practice Ngor Chor - great art. The flavour of the art varies from lineage to lineage (as is to be expected) but the similarities are definitely there.

Ngor Chor is an amalgamation of techniques from 5 foundation arts (the 5 Ancestors) of Tai Tzu, White Crane, Monkey, Lohan, and Ta Mo (some people include Tiger instead of Ta Mo). The difference in flavours of each lineage usually stems from a difference in emphasis on one of the foundation arts. Most lineages seem to favour the Tai Tzu. The lineage I have learned under favours the White Crane.

The style was summed up to me by my sihings as monkey legs, white crane hands, Tai Tzu strength, Lohan posture, Ta Mo's energy.

My sigung once said that there are 75 forms in Ngor Chor, covering open hand technique and weapons. From what I have seen of the art, every fighting range is covered (except shooting range - firearms are not part of the curriculum ;)).

Hope that helps. Feel free to PM me if you have more detailed questions.

[pitbull]

good for defeating multiple opponents....can make ur body strong and almost invulnerable to punches and kicks(but it still is painful....sometimes LOL) :-)

our sifu is now adding kicks to our training program....ngo cho kun isnt known for good kicking ;-) although the hand tekniks and parries are quite devastating

[joedoe]

Interesting, because the Lohan component of Ngor Chor provides a wide variety of kicks. But you are right, the strength of Ngor Chor is definitely in the hands :)

[Guile]

Is there Iron Body training involved for the "invulnerability" aspect?

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

It seems like a very interesting & effective style. It comes from Fujian, it spread to Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore & then Australia, UK, US. Unfortunataly u don't hear much about it. Go to the southern styles section of this forum there's a thread there about Ngo Chor that has some links to some sites. AOF where in Arizona is the school?

joedoe & pitbull,

have u guys heard of the Nam Yang Association in Singapore? & there founder Master Ang? I can't remember his full name I will find the site & put it here.
Are they well known for their Ngo Chor & does this school have a good reputation?
On the site they called there style Tai Chor (tiger) style. Is this another dialect/name for ngo chor? & why the tiger?
Is there a lot of tiger style/techniques in ngo chor? I read somewhere that Bak Yuk Fang was a Master in Tiger style?
Sorry for so many questions it seems like a great fighting art.

[Royal Dragon]

I think Tai Chor is another spelling of Taizu.

[pitbull]

nope...i dont know of any other ngo cho stable outside manila :-) joedoe may help u on this :-) i know that there are some in the us,uk,malaysia,indonesia,etc...but i dont know them personally or know about their organization..sorry :-(

ps: i observe that we(kong han) guys make our punches more solid and put more strength into our strikes when performing at the 2000 shaolin meet...while the malaysian,indonesian,singaporean,english and american congregation prefer less hard approach...this may be one proof of variation on the master's teachings...hmmm...i read somewhere in this board that ngo cho shouldnt be performed w strength...is this the other philisophy that other ngo cho practitioners practice? please educate me on this matter since i dare not ask my seniors about this

when i say less hard approach..i mean that the hands shake when striking as opposed to the hand is still after the strike...more rigid in some senses...

joedoe: yes,we do have some kicking :-) but our kicks are more of fakes and defensive purposes than to attack...must be another ngo cho variety :-)

another note,beng kiam's grand master tan ka hong and our 2nd generation master lo king hui are friends and they visit each other when they have the time...from what i ahd heard from our most senior member,mr chua(in his late 80's)beng kiam is more inclined in the performance aspect where as kong han concentrated in the fighting aspect of ngo cho(as i was told)...this old man is amazing...he is the only person who can perform the 12ft long pole...nobody has the size and strength(and i suppose ineterest as well) to perform it in our stable...he doesnt perform the pole right now bec we are afraid he might break his bones....this man is my hero :-)

hmm...ill ask my master if i can build a website for him...

[joedoe]

Guile - yes there is iron body training in Ngor Chor.

Golden Armor - I have heard of a Ngor Chor school in Singapore but not much else. Tai Chor is in fact another spelling for Tai Tzu (I think Tai Chor is the phonetic spelling for the way it is pronounced in Hokkien). Tai Chor is one of the foundation arts of Ngor Chor. Tiger style is not one of the foundation arts but Ngor Chor does have a few tiger forms and techniques in it.

pitbull - as far as I know there are several lineages of Ngor Chor in existence today. China, Malaysia, Phillipines, Singapore, and Indonesia. Most of the other schools that I know of in other parts of the world are of these lineages. As far as our lineage goes, I know we have schools in Australia, USA, UK, Europe, and New Zealand.

I haven't seen much footage from the conferences but from what I have been told the Phillipines lineage seems to emphasize the Tai Chor element of Ngor Chor. Whether this is why you appear to use more strength or not I am not sure.

I know that our lineage is more heavily influenced by the white crane. The other interesting point is that Grandmaster Chee Kim Thong had learned several different arts prior to settling on Ngor Chor, so there may be influences from other arts there as well.

My opinion is that ultimately Ngor Chor is like Xingyi in that it looks hard/external but is a soft/internal style. In my experience, people start out training hard but as they advance in skill their technique becomes softer. However I do not think that you should be afraid to ask your seniors about this as it is an important aspect of the art.

[pitbull]

thank u for enlightening me...ill ask later.

[Shaolin Master]

Of the singapore branches there are four that I am aware of :

Cao Biao's
Gan De Guan's
Lin Jiu Ru's
Wu Cong Ming's

Both Cao Biao's and Wu Cong Ming's are associated with the NanYangShaolin Wushu Hui. They have the luohan influence as many of the schools were interwoven with that of Gao Can Luohan master. Wu Cong Ming was also a practitioner of other fujian arts of the Zhou Zi He lineage (Tiger, dog, chicken, duck etc..). They are represented in Australia, South America and Singapore/Malaysia/Indonesia.

liu Jin Ru's is referred to as Yu Ming Pai (After Cai Yu Ming)

and Gan De Guan's is also practised in malaysia (Commonly referred to as Sarawak Association)

In terms of the hard or soft approach ....well we all have that shake ....I am surprised at those that don't irrespective of the influence....it is a common fujian trait in fact. It is not a shake but the terms of release of power...if it doesn't then it may be constrained not released.

regards
Wu Chan Long

[dezhen2001]

is the Nam Yang pugilistic association (based in UK) in any way influenced by 5 ancestors? Or is it a different skill?

thanks :)
dawood

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Shaolin Master
Of the singapore branches there are four that I am aware of :

Cao Biao's
Gan De Guan's
Lin Jiu Ru's
Wu Cong Ming's

Both Cao Biao's and Wu Cong Ming's are associated with the NanYangShaolin Wushu Hui. They have the luohan influence as many of the schools were interwoven with that of Gao Can Luohan master. Wu Cong Ming was also a practitioner of other fujian arts of the Zhou Zi He lineage (Tiger, dog, chicken, duck etc..). They are represented in Australia, South America and Singapore/Malaysia/Indonesia.

liu Jin Ru's is referred to as Yu Ming Pai (After Cai Yu Ming)

and Gan De Guan's is also practised in malaysia (Commonly referred to as Sarawak Association)

In terms of the hard or soft approach ....well we all have that shake ....I am surprised at those that don't irrespective of the influence....it is a common fujian trait in fact. It is not a shake but the terms of release of power...if it doesn't then it may be constrained not released.

regards
Wu Chan Long

Do you have any details of where they are in Australia? I have always wondered if there are any other Ngor Chor schools in Australia and to date I have not found any other than ours. I would love to try and link up with any others.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
is the Nam Yang pugilistic association (based in UK) in any way influenced by 5 ancestors? Or is it a different skill?

thanks :)
dawood

Looking at their website it doesn't look like they have anything to do with Ngor Chor. I don't know for sure though.

[pitbull]

lets just say that the shake isnt THAT prevalent......i shake a littkle when i dissipate my strike back to the stance but not after a strike is thrown....

[joedoe]

Well then your Ngor Chor must suck. Just kidding :D

I have found that it takes a few years of training for people to develop 'the shake'. It really comes from learning to relax when you strike.

[dezhen2001]

thanks joedoe, i know they have a sam chien set as well so was just wondering :)

dawood

[joedoe]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
thanks joedoe, i know they have a sam chien set as well so was just wondering :)

dawood

Many Fukkien arts have a Sam Chien form. They say they train Tai Chor (but call it tiger style) and I know for a fact Tai Chor/Tai Tzu has a Sam Chien set.

Don't get me started on Sam Chien - I could talk for hours about it. :D

[dezhen2001]

a tlak about sam chien - could be interesting dude - not like u have "work" to do huh? :D

yeah, as far as i know they are a tiger and crane "combination", and i know from karate history that both fukkien tiger and crane has sam chien.

dawood

[joedoe]

Well I will post a few tidbits now and then. How's that? :D

Wing Chun has Sil Lum Tao, many Fukkien arts have the Sam Chien. It is like a basic form that embodies a large part of the style's philosophy and technique. It is said that 40% of Ngor Chor is embodied in Sam Chien. It is also said that every Ngor Chor practitioner starts with Sam Chien and finishes with Sam Chien.

[dezhen2001]

interesting... goju karate has 2 katas called "sanchin" and "tensho" which seem to be part of the same family... they too say that you begin and end with sanchin :)

dawood

[joedoe]

Yet another thing they stole from the Chinese!!!! :D

Sam Chien enforces the 4 principles of float (pu), sink (tim), swallow (toon) & spit (toh), as well as introducing the basic fighting stance of Ngor Chor called, funnily enough, the Sam Chien stance. It also trains iron shirt techniques and power generation through posture and timing of breathing.

[dezhen2001]

hmmm... never come across those terms when i did sanchin, but i do understand roughly what they are and can see it to a degree in the sanchin i learned.

hey man - the okinawans didnt steal it - they just propogated it... it was the japanese who "japanified" it :D

dawood

[joedoe]

Sam Chien also contains the basic blocks and counters in Ngor Chor, as well as the basic stepping technique.

Ngor Chor also has several different Sam Chiens each one emphasizing different or more advanced skills. But the basic Sam Chien is the one most practised and the one that many practitioners (in our lineage anyway) find they get the most benefit from.

[pitbull]

i love sam chien :-) specialy the 2nd sam chien after u learned the first 5 basic katas...it can cover a lot of ground :-) from what i observed,sam chien is usually performed(on ceremonies) by masters and advanced students...i was also told that if i suck in sam chien then i would suck in almost everything...since sam chien is almost like the alphabet of ngo cho...

joedoe: my ngo cho doesnt suck....it stinks lol

PS: i chose this style over others bec ngo doesnt jump too much :-) and im short and stocky so it fits my physique :-) lol

[joedoe]

Sam Chien is also my favourite form (the basic Sam Chien that is). There are several different Sam Chien forms in Ngor Chor - Tai Tzu Sam Chien, White crane Sam Chien, big Sam Chien ... Anyway, if I only have a small amount of time to practise Sam Chien is always in the workout. Such an important form.

[prana]

always found it kinda bizarre samchien wasnt the first set practised in the Australian school. There is also the "Dai Sam Chuen" (the 12th or 13th set ?). That was my favourite set as it really works your waist.

Alas, I forgotten it years ago.

[dezhen2001]

i know what you mean mate... i have pretty much forgotten all the karate i did before too as well as other things. heck even the wing chun thing si am taught now usually go in one ear and out the other :p

dawood

[joedoe]

Originally posted by prana
always found it kinda bizarre samchien wasnt the first set practised in the Australian school. There is also the "Dai Sam Chuen" (the 12th or 13th set ?). That was my favourite set as it really works your waist.

Alas, I forgotten it years ago.

That was a decision James made in his teaching order - I guess most people found 20 punches more interesting because there was punching and turning involved :). Nowadays Sam Chien is taught first I think.

I think I started learning Dai Sam Chien but haven't really practised.

[dezhen2001]

joedoe: i know what u mean buddy - i need to start doing my siu lim tao again - its been too long :(

dawood

[pitbull]

sam chien rules!! wooooo!! :-)

ps: yup sam chien should always be the first...di sip kun in also my favorite :-) ill perform di sip kun and samchien sip di in may4 when we change our assn president :-)

samchien really works the waist <- yup :-) i feel thinner already :-) all that waist twisting slimmed my waist down

[joedoe]

di sip kun - is that 20 punches?

[dezhen2001]

samchien really works the waist <- yup :-) i feel thinner already :-) all that waist twisting slimmed my waist down so what happened with u joedoe? :p

dawood

[prana]

well there is no such thing as spot weight reduction, perhaps toning.

I always seen kf ppl have big waists....

[dezhen2001]

thats coz most KF peeps like to EAT a lot too :D How can you not when theres all this nice chinese food around?

dawood

[pitbull]

lol! hehehe

di sip kun-20 punches
er shi kwoon-mandarin

if anybody here will be going to the november shaolin meet this year...please tell us so that we can meet there :-)

[joedoe]

I won't be able to go this year. Maybe next year. :(

[joedoe]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
so what happened with u joedoe? :p

dawood

Told you before - our lineage does things differently :D

[pitbull]

joedoe: be seeing u then :-) next yr that is :-)

anyone went to the event last yr in malaysia? and in 2000 in shaolin in qunzhou?

[guanyu]

Originally posted by joedoe
Interesting, because the Lohan component of Ngor Chor provides a wide variety of kicks. But you are right, the strength of Ngor Chor is definitely in the hands :)

There is a lot of kicks in the advance forms. Like scissor kick.