other linerages of Hung Gar

[DF]

Is there any other Hung people out there beside the Wong Fai Hung linerage at this forum?
Such as Tik Kiu Sam, Village Hung etc.
I am doing a historic research on the development of Hung GA, any info will be greatly appreciated.

peace

[Kung Lek]

Hello-

I am a practitioner of Hak Fu Pai (Black Tiger school).

Our school website has an article on the system.
There is a relation to Hung Gar but it is said the Hak Fu Pai predates Hung Gar.

here's the address : www.mts.net/~jamieson (http://www.mts.net/~jamieson)

it is under the black tiger article link on page 2.

Peace

------------------
Kung Lek

[CantoneseJoe]

Hak Fu Pai / Fu-Jow Pai have many many similarities with Hung Ga. I think there were Hung Ga roots.

[nospam]

Try this: European Hung Gar Association (http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/9148/eng/masters.html)

[TigerFist]

There's Ha Say Fu and Toisan Village lineage also.

Hey Tigerfist isnt ha say fu a toisan village style?

[Kung Lek]

The current Hak Fu Pai system that I practice is of the Toisan (pronounced Hoy San) district of Canton.

peace

------------------
Kung Lek

[TigerFist]

I dont know if its the same

[hasayfu]

I practice Ha Say Fu and my ancestors are from ToiSan but Ha Say Fu is not from Toi San. That said, I've heard of a village style hung gar practiced by a Sifu from Toi San. I've never seen it so I can't say if it's similar to Ha Say Fu or if he even calls it a ToiSan Hung Gar.

I've never been there but my relatives who have say it's a very tiny and poor village. As the saying goes, there are more Toisanese outside of Toisan than in it. They were the majority of the people that left China in the late 1800's.

What info do you want about Hung Gar? It's a special interest of mine too.

[DF]

Thank you for all the responses.
My interest in this post is to find the historic developments of Hung Ga without the legends and folk tales. I have this belive that Hung Ga development is very similar to that of Wing Chun as stated in Robert Chu's book "Complete Wing Chun". Is it possible that Hung Ga was developed by many different martial artists in the past and not directly came from Gee Sim? That it was a pooling of knowledges by the different masters of the Red Boat or the Hung Moon.
I do not want to raise any controversy with any of our Hung Ga brothers and sisters. What I am doing is just to satisfy my own curiosity.
Can any of the non Wong Fai Hung linerage practioner tell us a little bit of the history of your linerage. I think this can help in my research.
Thank you

[hasayfu]

Hi DF,

You have quite a job in front of you. I agree that Hung Gar history is not very well known. I've spoken to Lum Jo and he says that anything before Luk Ah Choy is sketchy. (my words) Your theory is probably closer to reality.

You have to remember that Hung Gar is a "revolutionary" art. It was forged from the Qing's take over of the Ming's. The Kiu Sau is from that era and why there is so much symbolism to it. Many of it's members where very secretive. We use the kiu sau all over now but in the early days, it was not a well known symbol. Much like LA gang members with their hand signs, it was a way to show membership and loyalty.

That said, the art took the best of all around and condensed it to quickly train fighters. Of the 5 families, Hung was the most used of the time.

Wong Fei Hong's line had educated people. Most of the other lines didn't. That's why there is so much tradition. With Ha say Fu, little is known past Si-Gung. For good reason, he was a triad enforcer.

I have seen books from China and Taiwan called "Hung Family Fist" and have seen styles that are different but more similar to Ha Say Fu then Canton Hung Gar.

Any specific questions. I could go on. I have a bunch of these little tidbits.

[illusionfist]

I have heard of a Wubei style of Hung Gar, and it's roots come from the first emperor of the Song dynasty. I think these are it's major sets:

Gold general's hand (Gum Gong Sao)
Jamming Hand (Fung Sao)
Big Combination hand (Dai Jung Sao)
Gold Splitting Fist (sorry dont know the chinese name for the form)

On a side note for hasayfu, Is Lam sifu the only person that knows Ha Say Fu Hung Gar, or are there other masters around the world that know it. Is there somebody out there that actually knows the whole system, like somebody who inherited the style. Just wondering because i would like to know.

Peace out guys and gals /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Kung Lek]

Hello-

My Si Fu teaches Hay Say Fu Hong Pai.
It is also known as "Original Five Animals" and contains the complete sets of each individual animal from the original five.

Si Fu Kwon (Kwon Wing Lam) is the only person I've heard of that offers video tape lessons from the system, but there are many who practice this system.

Peace

------------------
Kung Lek

[illusionfist]

Kung Lek, does your sifu know the whole system? I read in an article that Wing Lam didn't get a chance to learn the whole system, so does your sifu know more? I am not trying to make it seem like i am highlighting Lam sifu's shortcomings, but i am just wondering because ha say fu has a mysterious past. And from what i have been exposed to, Lam sifu is the only one that knows the system, so it's cool that your sifu learned it too.

Oh and kung lek, who did your sifu learn from? Did he learn the system from Leung Wah Chew or did he learn it from somebody else?

Peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[nospam]

Try this: Nam Siu Lam Hung Ga Kuen Lineage (http://home.worldonline.nl/~hgkweito/rootpage.htm)

[hasayfu]

FYI, there are few people in Hong Kong and Macau that still train Ha Say Fu. I know that Lam Sifu learned the dragon set from a SiHing. I don't know much more about that.

For Kung Lek, may I ask who is your teacher and where are you located? I too would like to know what history you have of the system.

[Kung Lek]

Hello-

All the information I have to offer at this time is on our website.

You can get it by going through my profile or... just click... http://www.mts.net/~jamieson

my Si Fu' lineage is with three different Si Fu' as far as his Shaolin training goes and that consists of Black Tiger System, North Shaolin and The Original Five Animals system and also Shaolin Kempo.

He had other Si Fu who taught him 8 immortals (ba Sien) Tai Chi Chuan and ching Lung Hsing Pa Kua Chang.

I'm not sure where he learned the Hsing I.

I'm afraid you will not find much information on lineage at the site.
But in due course it will be added to the site.
I've personally never put a lot of interest into lineage but it is recognized that some consider this to be very important information.

I only know of three of my Si Fu' teachers dating back to the early 70's

Lu Han Wen Si Gung was Si Fu' North Shaolin Teacher
The late Moi Lin Shin Si Gung was Si Fu' Tai Chi Teacher
Richard Kudding Si Gung was Si Fu first Shaolin Kempo Teacher.
I am not sure of the others as I never really pursued it.

There is a short bio of Si Fu at the site as well as other information on the school location and curicullum.

Peace


[This message has been edited by Kung Lek (edited 03-29-2000).]

[hasayfu]

Hi Kung Lek,

thanks for your link. It's very informative. I also liked the lion dance pictures. Does your school teach lion dance? The site made it sound like it was part of the Lee association but I saw your Sifu in the Hoi Gong. Maybe we can start a lion dance thread.

As far as lineages, they don't mean anything in quality but they do say where the source is from. I've seen schools claim northen shaolin but is really japanese kempo. You look at the lineage and you see the instructor never learned shaolin or only took seminars, etc.

Have you seen Wing Lam's tapes and your Sifu's Ha Say Fu? Are they similar? I don't know of any teachers of the style outside of Wing Lam in the US though I know a few people who learned in Hong Kong on the east coast and who's to say they did not have private students.

Also, I've never heard anyone outside of WLE calling it the original 5 animal style. Just gathering data because it interests me.

Thanks again for the info.

[Kung Lek]

Hello-

I haven't seen the wing lam material but I have seen Si Fu performing a set or two out of the system.

I believe it was the Tiger set and the Snake set that I saw him do.
A rose is a Rose so to speak, especially in reference to specialized or so alled "rare" systems so i can make a fairly safe assumption that the two are the same in essence although my Si Fu or Wing Lam Si Fu may have either more or less detail and application in the system.

It is a good system and it moves a student through multiple elements of Kung fu training.

For instance:
When learning Hay say fu, the student starts with Tiger.
Tiger sets build strong muscles and bone as well as fortifying the kidneys.
From there one would learn Crane. Crane stretches tendons and sinews and gives equilibrium.
From there to the Leopard set which develops speed and fortifies the heart and blood.

Then to snake which starts the teaching of Fa Jing and better fluidity as well as deceptive footwork and quick hands.

And finally the Dragon which incorporates all of the above with great Fa Jing skills.

these sets are the core of the system. There are weapons and two man drills associated but much has been contributed to this aspect of Hay say Fu by different Masters.

The Core sets are the Pure Kung fu associated with the system and many augmentation sets can be just that, augmentation sets to further the students understanding of the core five animals.

Peace

------------------
Kung Lek

[Paul Skrypichayko]

DF- you might want to research information about "Dong Guen", a city in Guangdong province. There is a pretty famous sifu there who wrote a book on the short version of Tit Sin Kuen, aka "Dong Guen Tit Sin Kuen". Sorry, but I have no info on the man's lineage or name.

I have met a few people from Singapore, Brunei, and Malaysia, all claiming to practice Hung style. When I ask them about their martial arts, they change the subject. When I ask about their lineage, they usually claim to have learned it from their grandpa, uncle, etc, who of course was a monk.

Also, check out www.shaolin.org (http://www.shaolin.org) The sifu there is Wong Kiew Kit, he claims to teach hung gar, and his lineage is also on his site.

[DF]

Thank you Paul for the info.

[SimonM]

I am the threadsorcist!

Discuss. :D

[David Jamieson]

necrothread? is that you?

[SimonM]

This thread is back from the dead.

So, lineages of Hung Gar. My old school tracks back through the Wong Fei Hong lineage so I guess that makes me part of the mainstream. So hipster Hung Gar players shout out and tell us about what makes your art special!

[Brule]

These guys are non-wfh although they now teach taming tiger/tiger crane/and 10 elements, so i don't know what's happened.

http://www.quocwaikungfu.com/

[Snipsky]

Ha Say Fu.....is that the same as Mr T's "I Say Fool? just askin :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

This thread is back from the dead.

So, lineages of Hung Gar. My old school tracks back through the Wong Fei Hong lineage so I guess that makes me part of the mainstream. So hipster Hung Gar players shout out and tell us about what makes your art special!

Mine traces back to the Hung Kuen in Macao.

[diego]

Kung Lek how does the tiger work the kidney and then leopard works the heart and blood?.

[David Jamieson]

Kung Lek how does the tiger work the kidney and then leopard works the heart and blood?.

That's a bunch of cosmological mumbo jumbo bull**** to me now.
exercises is exercise. If done properly with good structure and efficient training methods, your body will benefit in all ways.

kidney health attributed to tiger movement or ideas is nonsense.

It was an old ignorant way of describing the process of attribute development.

[diego]

Bak Mei tiger works the Lat muscles with the tight twisting movements I was thinking you meant low back..Leopard is some super fast cardio drills like Shaolin tae bo lol. Dragon creates fajing makes sence when comparing bak mei and lung ying to kenpo or karate styles.

[SimonM]

So David, you practised some Hung Gar IIRC - were you from a WFH lineage or one of the others?

[David Jamieson]

So David, you practised some Hung Gar IIRC - were you from a WFH lineage or one of the others?

Not WFH. Not Chiu either and not TF.

Just some toisan version of hung that was called black tiger.

I didn't even recognize it as Hung Kuen until later, by comparison and by query.

there is heaps of styles that are "Hung" that have nothing to do with any big lineages, are just as legit in practice and method and share the basic same roots.

For all the same reasons that lady gaga is on the radio and is popular, but you have a CD of who you think are the best musicians in the world and they've never once gotten any air play.

Ultimately, all the martial arts I practice now are a congealed mas of "Mine". I do give a nod to where it comes from though.

:)

[SimonM]

For all the same reasons that lady gaga is on the radio and is popular, but you have a CD of who you think are the best musicians in the world and they've never once gotten any air play.



Since I'm from a Hung lineage that is, well, Lady Gaga to continue your analogy I'm interested in hearing about your Metronomy Hung. Tell us about it, how does it differ from the WFH Hung lineage?

[LaterthanNever]

Where did "DF" go? His book ambition sounds cool.

Illusionfist,

"splitting cold first"= Fun Gum Kuen. Master John Leong of Seattle, WA teaches the set. His lineage is..I believe under GM Wong Lee.

[CLFNole]

Wouldn't "fun gum kuen" be "gold splitting fist"? Gum - Gold.

[Golden Arms]

Gold Splitting Fist/Fun Gum Kuen is correct for the name of the set John Leong teaches. It is a shorter set, about the same length as Plum Flower Fist/Mui Fa Kuen taught in many Hung Gar lineages. I can't speak as to its original source, but it contains primarily movements found in Taming the Tiger and Tiger and Crane.

[David Jamieson]

Since I'm from a Hung lineage that is, well, Lady Gaga to continue your analogy I'm interested in hearing about your Metronomy Hung. Tell us about it, how does it differ from the WFH Hung lineage?

Biggest immediate difference is the reorganization of the material in the sets.
The weapons are individual and seeable as shaolin in execution and style.

There are core sets and all of them are the same techs as you would find in larger Hung lineages, but rearranged.

So, one set contains elements of Gung Gi Fook Fu + Fu Hok + Tid Sen
One contains elements of Fu Hok and Ng Ying
and so on it goes through this style.

One day, we'll meet and I'll show you. :)

[LaterthanNever]

CLFNole,

sorry..typo there. I meant "gold", not "cold".

But I am also the only man on earth to learn the ACTUAL "splitting COLD fist". I wait till a blast of air from Antarctica comes across the terrestrial plain..

and then?

S-P-L-I-T!!

It was taught to be the great and one and only Ashida Kims' friend who was also a student of Paulie Zink and Simon Olaf..

[YouKnowWho]

Does Hung Gar have any connection to Hung Chuan (one of the longfist branches)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KoTRv_sesM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZyWA0PKfCM

[David Jamieson]

Does Hung Gar have any connection to Hung Chuan (one of the longfist branches)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KoTRv_sesM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZyWA0PKfCM

I believe the characters used are different?

One is Red and the other is Flood.

In the big 5 families of the south, it's a surname.
In the big 5 of the north, the names are not surnames.