pushhands?

[ZhouJiaQuan]

can someone explain to me the principles behind push hands? really any info would be great, im fairly limited in my expeirence and knowledge of this practice. from my understanding it is practiced to develop senistivity? much like chi sao would be for wing chun?

thank you

[HuangKaiVun]

yes

[ZhouJiaQuan]

ok with that how would it devlop fighting skills. i mean i havent seen anything that teaches you to cover distance, and even so once you are in range your(im going to at least but i dont really practice taiji) hit the person not shove him.. am i missing something?

thanks

[Shaolin Master]

Push Hands at a 'fundamental' level teaches you to understand people and their equilibrium, their intentions become clear.
By understanding your opponent completely how can he match you.

Distance of course is dealt with 'huo bu' means living stance and it trancends all directions distances and positions. How can you strike what is no longer there, how can you sustain what will react whilst you feel your strike striking in a way that only flings you like a light paper doll. The harder faster your strike the further more suddenly you are thrown into emptiness.

Lastly, there is more to taiji than just push hands. Just as there should be more to wing chun than just Chi Sao.

[Kumkuat]

Push hands are excercises to help in developing jin. Students first get the bodily requirements (being sung, six harmoines movement, etc.,)down doing the form and such using well, air, as the resistance. Now they have to try to use the same principles touching someone. Of course people wonder why they make us do form and just go straight to push hands and learn to be sung, etc., using resistance? Well, I guess traditional teacher go for that, "crawl before you walk" philosophy. And I read somwhere (sorry for the lack of references) students who learn the form and body requirements first progress faster in push hands. Anyway, push hands teaches people to use proper jin in four directions (peng lu ji an) and it's variants (cai, lieh, zhou, kao) against someone resisting. So it starts out using patterns, then fixed step, then moving step, then finally to free sparring.

[taijiquan_student]

"So it starts out using patterns, then fixed step, then moving step, then finally to free sparring."

Something interesting I read that my teacher's teacher said is that sanshou (free-fighting) comes directly from the form, and not from tuishou (push-hands).

[wiz cool c]

when you say sanshou (free Fighting) is that the wrestling type stuff its kinda like judo randori ?

[taijiquan_student]

Not really. It's free sparring. Sanshou is the chinese term, not to be confused with the modern sport of sanshou/sanda. The way we practice, it includes everything--strikes, kicks, throws and takedowns, and we continue fighting on the ground if it goes there. We go until someone taps out, or is clearly about to be seriously hurt. In the beginning sanshou is fairly light and slow, but after that is full-contact. We do not use protective gear except for mouthguards (and sometimes headgear, without that stupid face-cage, for "heavier" full-contact practice).

Different schools will practice free-fighting differently. Actually, most taiji schools don't do it at all. Not to be arrogant, but ours is probably one of the very, very few in the country that practices in this way. There are only a few.

[chief108]

taught some basic pushhands and Sanshou to bouncers of nightclubs in LA and Chicago.
They were not allowed (by law) to use violence directly to nasty clients and this stuff was great for them to "accidently" get somebody out of the way and/ or make sure that the person can't do any harm anymore (if you catch my drift :D ).....

When I wanted to learn taijiquan, my instructor first taught me kung fu. It prepared my body and mind for it very well.
We started taijiquan as a fighting skill and the forms were easily learnt later, because I was used to learning new forms and allready experienced the "feel" of the use of power etc. from the pushing hands applications. Also truly knowing what every move does in combat situations made the learning of the form more fun (you're not just "Waving Hands Like Clouds", you're doing some serious damage there...) and gave it more depth....

There will be more of that stuff on my site (http://www.selini108.com) soon...

If you want to learn more about using taijiquan for fighting, then http://www.taijiworld.com/ (by Earl Montaigue) and http://pressurepointfighting.com/public_html/dim_mak_taiji_video.htm are also worth a visit...

Have fun, train hard...

Chief108

[wiz cool c]

how is san shou done in chen village by chen stylist ?

[Tiger_Beach]

In Chen Village, push-hands (or tuishou) means 'san shou' in which everything goes (elbow strikes, shoulder strikes or take-downs etc. ), normanlly done in such a way not intended to hurt anyone (like using flat part of arm instead of edge of an elbow).

In Chen Village, they call what we refer to as 'tuishou' as 'huaquan' (drawing circles).

So if you go there and intend to tuishou as it is meant here, please make sure to say 'hua hua quan'. :)

[taijiquan_student]

That sounds like it could be some rough tuishou, but not sanshou. San shou means "free hands", and traditionally does not start from tuishou distance, touching the other person. In sparring you are not touching at the outset. Also, in sanshou, there are strikes to the head and face, and any where else (generally not to the groin for obvious reasons), and kicks, and everything else you mentioned. It also, depending on the school, involves not stopping with a takedown and continuing the fight on the ground.

Question: Is the sanshou I just described what they call tuishou, and do they actually palm-strike each other (not simply on the chest) in Chen village tuishou? Do they practice sanshou/free-fighting there? Thanks.

[MaFuYee]

ZJQ;

my understanding of push hands is this:
- it's a good exercise for your health. first and foremost.
- it'll teach you to relax, if you practice properly. (as an exercise, not as a competition)
- it'll show you who has the really big egos.
- hopefully, with regular correct practice, you'll learn to gently yield to attacks in fighting situations. (which is contrary to a person's natural reflexes.)

keeping in mind:
- it is only one aspect.
- it will NOT teach you how to fight.
- fighting will not look like push hands.
- it's nice and SAFE (low insurance premiums) but should not be a substitute for sparring.
- push hands is next to useless in a fighting situation if you don't know the martial applications. (no the push hands applications)

[Nexus]

One of the key concepts of push hands is to become comfortable and relaxed in intimate relationships with others.

[ZhouJiaQuan]

thanks for the info everyone. my questions have been answered.

[wiz cool c]

there seems to be diffrent kinds of push hands at my school it looks like upper body wrestling or judo nage randori. they throw each other trip and shove each other its pritty ruff. then i have been to two groups in ny. one practice pushing and pulling each other off ballance at a moderate speed i belive this is fixed step? then the other group do this but at a much faster aggressive pace. And then there is the get the guy out of the circle type that they also do at my school which is kinda like sumo but you can allso trip or throw the guy.

[taijiquan_student]

"there seems to be diffrent kinds of push hands at my school it looks like upper body wrestling"

"the guy out of the circle type that they also do at my school which is kinda like sumo"

Is this a taiji school???

[wiz cool c]

yes chen style compation not that i know much at all about it.

[taijiquan_student]

I hope I don't come across as a jerk, saying "YOU MUST PRACTICE THIS WAY, AND IF YOU DON'T, THEN YOU ARE A FRAUD AND ARE NOT DOING TAIJI", but "upper body wrestling" and "sumo" are two things that should never be associated with this art. I've seen and done some **** rough push hands (especially with this one crazy russian guy), but it was never like sumo or grabbing and wrestling with the upper body.

Disclaimer: I prbably use upper body strength in taiji more than I even know, and not everything I post is a reflection of my actual abilities.

[wiz cool c]

i know the other group i have practiced with are against the aggressive type. but that is how it is done in chen style compation where it all started and i study chen style so. Agian i have only been doing tai chi for 3 mounths.