Fraudulent Martial Arts Teachers

[apeters28]

What are some sure signs that you are learning from a fraud, and what can you ask if you suspect that your teacher is a fake?

[Mojo]

If your belt test takes place nude, in a shower. Then you teacher is probably a fraud.

[apoweyn]

i think you might have more luck if you tell us what makes you think your teacher might be fraudulent in the first place (assuming that this isn't a purely theoretical question).

[KC Elbows]

A closed social circle promoted in the system. Meaning that you are discouraged from hanging out with other martial artists who might be better than you. This is because frauds often make grandiose claims about how much better their system is than all others. Good martial artists just train, not talk.

[Budokan]

LOL @ Mojo! Yes, that would be a dead giveaway! :D

[rubthebuddha]

mojo,

sensei said i didn't pass the sensitivity test, because i told him i didn't feel a thing. :(


the closed-circle part is a good clue, but i think it's more than that. if an instructor prohibits or pressures against, either explicitly or implicitly, checking your stuff against other styles, either in theory or in practice, that's a good clue. open dialogue, either with words or with hands, has a tendency to bring frauds out in the open.

in addition, the whole "we don't do suchandsuch because our techniques are too deadly" is a big one for me. bjj's stuff is deadly -- ever seen a choke that, given 10 more seconds or a bit more pressure on the windpipe, wouldn't kill an oppontent? and bjj folks roll ALL THE TIME. muay thai is quite deadly -- yank someone's head down into your fast-rising knee and tell me that doesn't risk the big sleep, same as a sinking elbow into the back of someone's head (think point of elbow to occiput).

anything can be deadly. you just have to learn control with your techniques.

[SLC]

I would be suspicious about an excessive interest in money, fees, contracts, that type of thing.

There is lot of room between being fraudulent and just being a poor teacher, though.

As Apoweyn asked, what makes you suspicion?

[TaoBoy]

If you've been training your ass off for a year and you still can't fight your way out of a wet paper bag - you're learning from a dodgy operator.

Any 'master' who professes to have created a style out of nowhere or is teaching a style they didn't actually study is a fraud.

All previous points are also dead give-aways.

[Brad]

Being required to wear Karate uniforms is a defenite sign that something MIGHT be wrong. Though not incriminating, of the 6 schools I've come across doing this 5 were defenitely frauds.

[Budokan]

I have to say I don't see anything wrong with having to wear a karate uniform in a dojo. It shows respect and connects the student to the past, albeit maybe in an indefinable way.

Kung fu students who are made to wear gis, now that's a different animal altogether... :D

[kenso]

If your teacher is 24 years old and claims to have multiple high rankings in various arts, or claims that he spent several years as a Navy SEAL and/or Navy SEAL unarmed combat instructor, you can pretty much bet that he's a fraud. Also, I have a hard time respecting anyone who demands to be called "Master" or "GrandMaster". I could demand that everyone call me [insert lofty title here] but it doesn't make it so.

[MonkeySlap Too]

If he's in his late 30's and talks about 'the Nam.'

[LEGEND]

If the school says u'll learn from the World Champion himself but he never teaches!

[SaMantis]

If your teacher keeps telling you, "Sweep the leg, Johnny! No mercy!"

[Stacey]

actually some styles by design are not sports.


I can use 8 step and mold it into a sport like san shou or submission grappling because of the tools and skills that apply, but If I stick directly to the system, Its not designed for anything but killing.


However, I have always been encouraged to go look at other blackbelts and what they learn. I am often encouraged to spar with people of other styles and I think this is normal.

was to spot a fraud is to say that only they have the true history.

another is that they did karate for 15 years and then suddenly saw some kung fu and since all martial arts are basically the same, they now teach wudang and shaolin since shotokan originally came from combining the best of wu dang and shaolin.

[Royal Dragon]

The Kung Fu "Grandmaster" decides to take on a Karate teacher(With no experiance in Kung Fu) as a Kung Fu student, and only two years later makes him a Tenth degree Grandmaster and next inheritor to the lineage.

[jon]

"What are some sure signs that you are learning from a fraud, and what can you ask if you suspect that your teacher is a fake?"

* Honestly just watch them move...
If there capable of generating obviously strong power and honestly look like they could give someone a serious run for there money then chances are your onto a good thing.
This can sometimes be complicated as many good sifus including mine wont outwardly show off. However even in the small things that they do you should be able to see good results.

One of my favorite little *tests* is to 'accidently' use my opposite hand when there demonstrating an application. A good sifu should not care less and will simply compensate - providing you dont totaly ambush them(remember its not a fight and there not expecting this).
A good example was my old Hung sifu who i did this exact thing to...
" if you jab me with your left..."
I jab with my right - he smacks my arm out the way and punches me strait in the ribs.
"its meant to be your left but whatever"

If you break strait though your sifus defences and they begin to protest your lack of following procedure it would be a good time in my mind to start ringing alarm bells.


You would be ammazed how many times ive seen this happen even in demonstrations.
Some lame wadd 'sifu' pulls a member of the audience up and gives them a fake knife instructing them to attack them like some robotic android using a stupidly unorthadox over the head stab.
Said member of the audience gets confused and simply lunges at the instructor using a compleatly different technique.
The instructor then gets all goaty with the audience member and instructs them to attack 'proparly'.

In my experience you can tell people with real skill just by watching them move and demonstrate application.
If you can easily pass there defences everytime you change something around or do your attack the 'wrong' way then chances are your sifu is not going to have much actual fighting knowledge to impart that will be of an applicable nature.

[jon]

I also think that fee's which become *more* expensive the more you progress are also a dead giveaway.
In my experience most kung fu teachers basicaly hate getting money out of there students and only do it becouse they have to. The senior students in most good schools often pay the least in terms of tuition - they have paid there dues over the time they have been around.
If your fee's seem to go up and up depending on your rank, then i would be *very* suspect.

[Lowlynobody]

Excelent post Jon. You put it exaclty how I feel you can tell the difference betweeen a fraud and the real thing. Though there are other factors that may be involved what Jon said will be a dead give away.

[iron thread]

If you watch king of the hill, there was an episode where bobby was on the high school wrestling team and he was showing this move to his girlfriend. He told her it is impossible to get out, and his girlfriend got out of the lock very easily. Then Bobby said that that's not real wrestling, if you are using real wrestling it would be impossible to get out. If your sifu tells you something similar, haha, obvious fraud.

[rubthebuddha]

jon,

rather stout post.

problem with me? i study wt, so when i mix stuff up with my instructor, his reflex is to just let the force go and hit me.

:(



;)

[MaFuYee]

Originally posted by apeters28
What are some sure signs that you are learning from a fraud, and what can you ask if you suspect that your teacher is a fake?

your teacher could be a fraud, if:

* he routinely gets beaten up in the kids class.

* he comes out of the changing room half dressed, and asks one of the students to show him how the belts are supposed to be tied.

* english is his first and only language, but he speaks with a really bad chinese accent, and encourages his students to do the same.

* he turns deathly pale at the mere mention of the word "sparring".

* he spends more time mimicking animal sounds than speaking.

* he can't demonstrate any techniques because they're all too lethal, dim mak strikes.

* when demonstrating a technique, he is more concerned with making a stupid face and looking towards the camera than what he is doing; even if the camera is just sitting on a table with the lens cap on.

* when you ask what style he teaches, he replies "kung fu", and asks you to call him 'sensei'. - and when you ask, 'but what style of kung fu do you teach?' he says nothing, and only looks at you quizically.

* when you ask about the system's history, he tells you stories that you definitely recognize as the plots to some of your favorite shaw bros movies. - even the names remain the same.

* a typical application sounds like this: strike point G17 with your little knuckle while you press point Q27, on the top of his foot with your big toe, and grab point G12 and G14.

* claims to teach a long lost version of tai chi that looks amazingly like the regular yang style with a few chen style techniques thrown in at random.

* he always dresses like a 12th century buddhist, but has no problem with eating meat, drinking booze, or hitting on your girlfriend.

* the vast majority of your style is only deadly effective against coconuts.

* he goes to a tai chi seminar, and all of a sudden, the next week he is claiming tai chi master in his credentials.

* his name is bob klein.

...

[Brad]

Kung fu students who are made to wear gis, now that's a different animal altogether...

That's what I meant
:D