Chin na: Generally useful?

[Muppet]

This is a question for you guys that have really fought.

I know joint locking has its place, especially if you're a police officer or in a litigious society and can't afford to damage the other person.

Or if you're in a social gathering where someone gets rowdy and you don't want to destroy the person.

But in a fight or competition, do you have the luxury to apply chin na techniques?

I've found that grabbing a punch that is thrown and applying a joint lock is initially difficult in a drill, though I imagine one eventually gets good at it. But drills are artificial and when the opponent is free to strike as they like, the limb may not come out in the way you need.

So I guess what I'm really wondering is, do you guys mainly concentrate on strikes with maybe one or two tried and true chin na techniques, or do you find having a larger repetoire of joint lock techniques to cover more bases helpful in practice?

Thanks.

[Liokault]

This is a stupid question and if your not past the stage of beliving its about catching punches then locking them you need to think more about what your doing!

[Crimson Phoenix]

The body's joints and tendons do not have an infinite range of motions. Hence, there is a limited number of ways to bind, lock and tear.
When people leanr many qinna techniques, they often get caught in the individual technique, trying to learn like a catalog of stuff they would then try to browse and to chose from when in need. But the catalog approach in qinna IMHO doesn't work. What I try to do though, through the study of many qinnas, is get a feeling of how a joint locks or a tendon binds and tears. In other words, forget about the technique of the qinna itself and focus on the principle behind. As I said, there is only a limited number of ways to perform a qinna. Once you have a feeling of the angles that hurt and immobilize, you can forget about the individual techniques and it gives you much better chances to place a qinna: indeed, it doesn't matter how the opponent does his thing, you know the angles and positions, you devise your qinna on the spot to make it work, instead of trying to place a single schoolbook technique.
I don't know if that makes much sense or replies to your question...

Anyway, one last thing, to NEVER forget, coming from a reknowned expert of qinna: it's ALWAYS EASIER to strike than to do a qinna. Hence, the latter should be used only when you are very much superior to your opponent and consecutively when you can afford to be merciful, without risking too much of yourself.

[Muppet]

Actually, that makes a whole lot of sense.

Generalizing and discarding form-particulars is also true for striking, but I can definitely see why that's critical in chin na.

However, given that I only have so much time to practice--especially with a partner--I think you've answered my question.

I'll concentrate on getting good with the striking for now and work on the chin na applications if and when I have time in the future.

Thanks.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Chin Na is at least as useful as punching and kicking.. in the streets you seldom get the luxury of a referee to break the clinches.. Chin Na has concluded more of my street encounters than punching and kicking.. After more than 30 years in this goofy martial arts world, it is one of my prime weapons.. (besides, i love whispering "it gets so much worse than this, wanna quit now")..

Be well...

[I.M. Toast]

it is a reasonable enough one for a beginner (like myself). ;)
I can imagine chin-na to be very useful, in a given situation. A previous poster on the forum said that his teacher, recommended "strike first, and then chin-na". If you have set yourself up into a position, or been placed in a position to use it, it is a very effective weapon.

I.M.T.

[Stacey]

you use hand techniques to set up for them.

You make contact and follow.

[fa_jing]

I think the key point is that you block (redirect) the punch first making contact with the opponent's arm and grab from there, or grab after you have trapped, or grab a stationary hand, or grab a hand that has grabbed you first. You do not grab a punch directly out of thin air. Also from the clinch, your shaui (throw) is more important than a sieze (Qin)

[Walter Joyce]

Good posts, quick reminder from another thread.
Quin-na is a "gift from heaven" as in you use it when the opportunity arises.
Oddly enough, considering the damage one can inflict with it, it also can be merciful. Controlling techiniques give the ability to inflict degrees of damage much easier than striking or kicking.

[Former castleva]

Some points to consider with chin-na:
-In many cases,first strike,then wrap.To avoid arm wrestling.
-If against a strike etc. it may be better to deflect first than try to directly catch a strike.
-Rely on technique,not strength.
-Place pressure on what is weak,with what is relatively strong.
-When locking joints,LOCK joints to make it immovable,therefore easier to direct and harder to resist.
-Chin-na is more than jointlocking.
-A good joint pressure technique does not just put opponent to a disadvantageous position,it is cabable of keeping you safe.
-Just twisting something to a certain direction is not wise,even though it may cause pain,does not control.This will get you punched over and over again while you concentrate on a small area neglecting opponent´s weapons.
-Control the whole opponent by controlling only one part of him,or alternatively,temporarily take opponent away to lead up with a finishing blow etc.

[Walter Joyce]

Once again, good points. For those interested, visit this thread on the topic:

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=display;num=1034197116

[Former castleva]

Yeah,good discussion you brought up Walter.

I just wanted to add this view that I´ve seen various times,which goes like chin-na/jointlocks etc. are prime bull and don´t work in a real fight.

What do you think?

[Walter Joyce]

I think that quinna works in real fights, but only if you have spent a fair amount of timne working on it and have develped good skill.

What has my current interest is the use of fa jin and quinna. I had some demostrated on me this summer and it was an eyeopener.

[TaoBoxer]

Physical Therapy

bill

[GeneChing]

..and I should add that I'm not very good at it and that I do volunteer work in intense psychedelic reaction crisis intervention, which means I have to take down intoxicated and belligerent patients on occasion.

I think the factor of chin na that most people overlook is the bridge. Now I've never successfully caught a punch in the field like I can in class practice. It's never that neat and clean. Usually what happens is the punch comes and I deflect it to the best of my ability (which often means I'll eat the strike a little, but not enough to put me down.) Then I close the gap so the patient can't really punch. For there, I scramble to get hold of an arm, and once I seize it, I can apply some chin na. FWIW, I'm usually (but not always) accompanied by team mates. I have secured takedowns by chin na alone, but it's an ugly messy thing, more like wrestling. Still it does work, often quite well.

[GeneChing]

Enter to win KungFuMagazine.com's contest for TAI CHI CHIN NA Autographed by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/sweepstakes-tai-chi-chin-na.php)! Contest ends 6:00 p.m. PST on 2/19/15.

[SPJ]

In response to the first post:

1 Most if not all Qin Na can be countered.

2 Mostly we want to end the fights ASAP. So we either do Qin Da or Qin Shuai.

We end grappling with a strike or a throw.

3. Joint locks are dangerous and banned in all fight tourney. Unless, you set them as end games and the opponent taps out.

Due to possible dislocation of joints, they are not allowed.

:eek:

[GeneChing]

See our TAI-CHI-CHIN-NA-by-Dr-Yang-Jwing-Ming-winners (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?68485-TAI-CHI-CHIN-NA-by-Dr-Yang-Jwing-Ming-winners) thread.

[mawali]

Actually, that makes a whole lot of sense.

Generalizing and discarding form-particulars is also true for striking, but I can definitely see why that's critical in chin na.

However, given that I only have so much time to practice--especially with a partner--I think you've answered my question.

I'll concentrate on getting good with the striking for now and work on the chin na applications if and when I have time in the future.

Thanks.

1. You have setup, followup then application.
2. You should be able to punch/strike and kick
3. Applying chin na from the git go is bad choice on a 'fresh" opponent
4. add throwing (shuai) and they are all equal providing you are adept at usage and you used based on opportunity and conditioning (or lack of) for both parties.

[boxerbilly]

I was going to say, if you guys can catch punches and lock them up, you are far better than anyone I have ever seen. I can't imagine Chin Na-ing any punch ever tossed at me in boxing or on the street, unless you count catching it with your face and locking it with your mouth. Ive done that a lot. I don't recommend it. It's a lousy method really.

But Gene summed up nicely. Very hard to do, in like, probably never going to happen and the finer Chin Na skills will probably not work at all against a resisting opponent. For Gene I suspect even harder because he has to do his best to not only not get hurt but ideally not hurt the person needing to be restrained. Something I would never do. Hats off to you. I worked in a hospital. My only response to anyone going off on me would be to punch the heck out of him. Then I get fired and sued.

Thankfully, my position did not require my having to manhandle patients.

[boxerbilly]

Gene's experience makes one consider. Should you continue learning potentially useless technique or do you learn it as shown and hope you can still apply it under duress? Or, do you totally scrap and or modify the techniques and train those modification only? It is like Frank Trejo talking about the ideal and the real deal. Parkers ideal is the 2 man techniques. The real deal means those techniques will probably look nothing like you practiced them. The basics or individual techniques may still retain the same quality and look as in the 2 man technique.

I was from the school of scrap that crap and train only what will come up and more likely will work. Get it basic. Keep it brutal. Hard and fast. BUT, and in my youth I was stupid. I almost always settled things via left rights. Save a few front kicks. Unlike the it always goes to the ground and grapples. Not a single time did anything I consider a fight ever have that happen. And, I spent years training for the life and death battle that never happened. I look back and thank, what a flocking waste of time. Training combatives crap.

I never gouged an eye. Chopped a throat. Kicked a knee broke. And all those times , I could have walked. I chose not to. The one time I actually needed any of this and I was with 2 guy and one of them was far superior to me at fighting. We got mugged. Out numbers at least 2 to 1. Knives and bats. We did NOTHING. They took what they wanted ( street tax) and split. We went home unharmed.

Now, if I was in Genes position, I would highly consider training grappling more heavily. Many hospital do give basic classes in restraint techniques but the classes are few and far between and I expect not real intensive.

Anyway, I no longer care to much about self defense and fighting in general. I did me time with the gloves on. Looking back not sure if that was a waste of my time too? I liked it then even if a lot of times I was scared. At almost 50 I have no desire to get punched in the head a couple of hundred times a week.

The choices we make.......ask yourself why and go from there. I really think I wasted a huge amount of time in many ways.

[Jimbo]

Chin na in CMA is part of the potential force continuum. Not every situation requires a full-out response. Sure, it can be devastating if applied to its logical end. But IMO, it's mostly practical in circumstances where the other person is not an overly great threat, i.e., an unarmed, aged professor who gets drunk and starts running amok at a faculty party. Or in instances, such as in law enforcement, etc., where it's necessary to try to control a suspect rather than to break his head open, and usually involving multiple officers on one suspect. Some simple, basic chin na could work well in such situations.

It would be *very* difficult if not impossible to apply in the heat of a fight with a determined, aggressive attacker. The idea of catching a (real) punch is pretty much a fantasy.

[Fa Xing]

Tim Cartmell has mentioned to me on many occasions of knowing a lot of Chin Na techniques (somewhere around the 300 area) but said he has only found about 6 to be actually useful. I've only really gotten a chin na technique after punching them in the face, or taking them down and slapping it on there which is referred to as submission grappling. :rolleyes::cool:

[boxerbilly]

I am very impressed with Cartmell. He is also a San Soo guy. Has made some great books and videos. Kudos to that guy!

[ShaolinDan]

Some good answers from way back at the beginning of this thread...

Basically, "chin na" as a collection of hundreds of locks--not so useful. "Chin na" as an intimate understanding of how the body's skeleton and tissue connect, and move--extremely useful. :cool:

[Subitai]

Thing about this is most people think of Chin Na as joint locks and for all intents and purposes: some variety of standing chin na at that....NOT ALL YOU GUYS OF COURSE. :) I'm speaking of the proverbial "THEY".

But it's not really that of course...I was taught that it's anytime you're seizing and holding someone = usually in a vulnerable or compromised position. Can it be literal joint locks? Yes but not always. For example, you hold a guys arm behind his back to control him, yet you're not actually applying pain towards a joint.

Looking at it in that regard, more people (especially grapplers) are able to pull off some useful Chin Na far more often than they realize.


I think Jim and anyone else that mentioned or alluded to the problem of catching a punch is "spot on". That is however always the critical point or crux of the matter isn't it? Entry if you're offensive or reactionary if you like to counter...but either way, it works best if you know how to set the guy up and he gives it to you. For a Tai Chi guy or any style that relys on establishing a "Stick point" or "Bridge"....their bane is literally Mohamed Ali i.e. "Float like a butterfly sting like a bee". Meaning if you cannot establish the necessary contact, it's very difficult to get started.

From my own experience it always works better if you know how to set it up such that the person GIVES you the energy, then it's quite easy to do. I cannot say GIVE enough because if you work these things as much as I do you start to realize when the right times are to apply it and then it becomes easier at that point. Not full proof because nothing ever is, but a much better chance yes.

Often most people sense that you're about to do some sort of Chin Na and then Stiffen up or become strong to counter it...and it almost always works in defeating the chin na attempt. (at least for that particular window) However if you're good, you know what to do when they become "IRON MAN STIFF" and you take advantage of that. Either that, or just accept that it won't work and keep fighting until the next opportunity presents itself....which it always does. Just like a good boxer, who keeps setting up his combinations...eventually they can work for him.


Dos pesos, "O"

[MarathonTmatt]

some guy tried to sucker punch me from behind once, while we were both walking away in opposite directions. i sort of got in his face and "danced" around him originally because he wasn't giving anybody else any space to walk around him which i thought was quite rude. i used a chin na technique to catch his punch, take him down and get him in a joint lock (using control not to break anything because in this case, thank god, it wasn't necesary)- but given the long-range distance of his sucker-punch it was easy to grab him off balance. A matter of not taking my eyes off this one. control the elbow and the wrist- one of the technique's from chen style tai chi i used early on in my push hands training taught by my teacher Dr. Aihan Kuhn and her students.

Looking back I realize I should have practice self control and not get agitated when people act like king-sht punks.

Push hands is a wonderful compliment to sparring- an extra sensitivity training.