are non-chinese people legit sijos?

[rubthebuddha]

the topic has been touched on in a couple threads, but i want to ask more pointedly -- are non-chinese people legit sijos?

the term sijo means founder, so can non-chinese people found a real chinese art?

[old jong]

No!...How could me, a french canadian guy found a ''chinese'' art?....Ridiculous!
Why is that need to reinvent the wheel in the first place?....

[KC Elbows]

Old Jong, you could be the sijo of kung feaux.:D

Forgive me if I spelled that wrong.

However, going along with old jong's comments, could a chinese person be a legitemate sijo these days? If so, then I'd say that any ethnic group could be a sijo, as long as what they came up with is still kung fu. After all, there's nothing genetic about the styles.

Of course, there's no legitemate parallels to work with(bjj).;)

[TaoBoy]

If someone wants to call themselves Sijo, let them.

But grabbing techniques from various styles and moulding them together doesn't create a 'new' style, therefore the term Sijo is unwarranted.

I'm just over titles.

[Former castleva]

Are chinese ppl qualified to teach western boxing?



:)

[old jong]

Yeah! I could call it ''Cogne Fou''...(Could translate as: Hit like crasy!) ;) :D

[KC Elbows]

:D

I wish my art were called "Hit like crazy".:)

[rubthebuddha]

IMO, it's a semantic impossibility. if you base the founding on current chinese arts, then it's nothing new. if you base it on the person's ethnicity, then non-chinese people calling themselves "sijo" are poseurs.

[David Jamieson]

Not to mention, the term for "founder" is Cho si or JoSi.

Is it called "Si Jo" cause we read english left to right?

peace

[SaMantis]

No, like rubthebuddha says. If an American guy invents a martial art in the U.S., well then its an American martial art, not a Chinese one. The guy should just call himself "founder" or "president" of his new style.

Then again -- Japanese martial arts drew from Okinawan martial arts, Okinawan martial arts were developed from Chinese Shaolin, Shaolin learned its initial methods from an Indian.

So, is every single "founder" outside of India for real?

[David Jamieson]

Not to mention... Bodhidharma was likely a Persian and not an Indian.

:D

peace

[Former castleva]

Yeah.
And you can still possibly gain a tap on the back relying on bodhidharma/damo theory,even though it is often accepted.
:)

[MightyB]

Nowadays,

Anybody with 6 months or less in three different styles claims to be the creator of an ultimate hybrid style.

What people are missing is the fact that legitimate "founders" did adapt and combine various arts AFTER THEY HAVE MASTERED AT LEAST ONE. This takes time and effort. The modern "equivalents" are lazy wannabees who haven't put forth the effort to have enough real insight to create a style.

Aikido-- combination of Aikijujitsu, Kendo, and Jojitsu.
Karate-- Southern White Crane and indiginous Okinawan fighting arts.
Kempo-- Shaolin and Indiginous Japanese Atemi arts.
Jeet Kune Do-- Wing Chun, Boxing, Western Fencing, and Philosophies of combat. Heavy on Wing Chun.
Praying Mantis-- 17 styles of kung fu.
Eagle Claw-- Eagle Claw and Muslim Fan Ze kicking arts.
Judo-- Multiple styles of Jujitsu
BJJ-- further refinement of Judo (by a master Judoka).

Also combinations created by MASTERS of multiple styles but I don't know the root styles:
Hung Gar
Jow Gar
Choy Li Fut
Krav Magda
Sambo

Get the point. Besides, the Si Jo never recognized themselve as such. It was their followers who gave them that title usually after their death.

[TkdWarrior]

Not to mention... Bodhidharma was likely a Persian and not an Indian
IMO i think bodhidharma was Indian who belongs to Southern India n belongs to warrior family. he later look into Buddists philosophy beacuase his own religion(Hindu) was being abused too much, they were just too much hatred, so he went on to look something from which he can find his inner...


Okinawan martial arts were developed from Chinese Shaolin, Shaolin learned its initial methods from an Indian.

now i hav one question doesn't it is foolish to say that shaolin learned its intial styles from India? cuz it would be easy to understand that China was almost under attack in his histories...
thats why they built Great Wall?? so they didn't hav any kind of MA?? i don't think so... if u say that only monk learn that?
then why they had this sudden urge to learn MA or their basics??
i think Da moa(bodhidharma) found them quite weak n teach them 18 postures which gave them lots of strength...n i heard someone made a MA out of that(Lohan Fist or 18 arhat fist)
if anyone made lohan style then he must hav grounding in MA watsoever... wat u guys say?

anyway coming back to thread... i agree with most of u guys...a indian(non chinese) can't found an art which is chinese... :D :p
-TkdWarrior-

[KC Elbows]

I was thinking about this on my way in to work this morning, and the 'semantic impossibility' that the question seems to hold.

Now, if you look at kung fu as a cultural practice of the chinese people, then I doubt a non chinese could create a style of cultural practice unless that non-chinese were part of the chinese culture, if not race(after all, we're not talking genetics, we're talking culture).

Which raises the question for the people who don't think a white guy could be a sijo(josi for kung lek): What if that white guy were raised by a chinese family in the chinese culture without the influence of the 'western culture' in his family life?

Could he be a josi, or is this a discussion of race?

Now, the flip side, and the side I favor, is the one that, aside from kung fu styles being a cultural practice, they are also a variety of fighting methods based off of common principles that give a practitioner a set of advantages in a set of circumstances. On this side, kung fu is not a cultural practice as much as a technology, albeit an abstract one. And like any technology, it can be tweaked in order to change the overall effect.

In that model, a change in kung fu can be performed by a white guy. Perhaps it ceases to be chinese kung fu culturally, but it is still kung fu as long as it is made up of the common principles.

As for hybrids not being new styles, I'm with the poster who said that's not true. Otherwise, would choy li fut be a separate style? I think so, but it's mainly a hybrid.





So, is champagne in no ways a part of US culture? Cause I keep running into it at weddings, yet I never run into any French there. Perhaps Old Jong's work?:D

[KC Elbows]

TKD warrior, I just read the end of your post. Classic.

I wish the chinese would quit making themselves founders of Indian arts. Or was it persian?

God**** plagiarists.

[SaMantis]

Plagiarists! :D


So, is champagne in no ways a part of US culture?

Well, they make champagne, esp. in California, but they have to call it "sparkling wine" because the Champagne region of France owns the name.

So would U.S. kung fu be the "sparkling wine" of the martial arts world, or an entirely new flavor?

[lkfmdc]

For argument's sake, I"m white like a sheet, I teach my art, making changes in it, to like 4000 people in my life time. My changes become significant, my students become successful, a distinct "lineage" is started out of my school. Once I'm dead, after like 3 generations of my "method" have existed, someone can start calling me Si Jo and it MIGHT be legit

If I go out and put it on my business card and introduce myself as "Si Jo" I'm a clown

[MightyB]

I did a little research on the topic for a Chinese History class I had in college.

Kung Fu was always kung fu... It originated way before Da Mo.

It originated even before the Warring States period (which is way before Da Mo) where a lot of styles and martial patriarchs got their start. (think three kindgoms and you get the point).

Before Da Mo and Shaolin, there was war in China. The Shaolin temple and all temples-- Buddhist, Daoist, were refuges for all types of people. Masterless Warriors, thugs, bandits, political exiles, you name it, they were there. So the temples became a melting pot of several indiginous village fighting arts. These were practiced before Da Mo. They combined and refined their skills, gained followers, and started rebellions.

Da Mo added the spirituality element to the martial arts through meditation, breathing methods, and yoga postures. These were adapted into the various fighting arts and all became Shaolin. That is how Shaolin Kung Fu started.

[MightyB]

lkfmdc nailed it. That's how a Si Jo is made.

[guohuen]

Ever meet a world class chef of chinese cuisine that wasn't chinese? Neither have I.

[lkfmdc]

Actually, the ICA rcognizes three non-Chinese as master chef's of that cuisine style... wonders never cease

[KC Elbows]

Guohuen, nice of you to allow us to answer.

Frankly, I haven't met any world class chefs to my knowledge.

However, I have seen world class italian chefs who are japanese. And world class japanese chefs who are american.

What you are suggesting is that westerners could not be taught to cook and present chinese food properly, and, by relation, do kung fu properly. I cannot imagine that you actually believe that.

[guohuen]

Your welcome. Welcome to my racism. Excuse me while I go hit myself with something to get the idea of Japanese chefs of Italian cuisine out of my head. Good yes, the same no.

[KC Elbows]

"Your welcome. Welcome to my racism. Excuse me while I go hit myself with something to get the idea of Japanese chefs of Italian cuisine out of my head. Good yes, the same no."

So you've eaten their food?

[kenso]

Originally posted by MightyB
Nowadays,

Anybody with 6 months or less in three different styles claims to be the creator of an ultimate hybrid style.

What people are missing is the fact that legitimate "founders" did adapt and combine various arts AFTER THEY HAVE MASTERED AT LEAST ONE. This takes time and effort. The modern "equivalents" are lazy wannabees who haven't put forth the effort to have enough real insight to create a style.

Aikido-- combination of Aikijujitsu, Kendo, and Jojitsu.
Karate-- Southern White Crane and indiginous Okinawan fighting arts.
Kempo-- Shaolin and Indiginous Japanese Atemi arts.
Jeet Kune Do-- Wing Chun, Boxing, Western Fencing, and Philosophies of combat. Heavy on Wing Chun.
Praying Mantis-- 17 styles of kung fu.
Eagle Claw-- Eagle Claw and Muslim Fan Ze kicking arts.
Judo-- Multiple styles of Jujitsu
BJJ-- further refinement of Judo (by a master Judoka).

Also combinations created by MASTERS of multiple styles but I don't know the root styles:
Hung Gar
Jow Gar
Choy Li Fut
Krav Magda
Sambo

Get the point. Besides, the Si Jo never recognized themselve as such. It was their followers who gave them that title usually after their death.
Sorry to pick nits here, but I have a couple of quick corrections to make here.
Aikido: although sword techniques are used, they are not kendo techniques; nor are they techniques from any recognized school. They are uniquely aiki sword. Same with jo.
BJJ: Carlos Gracie was nobody's master Judoka. One of the reasons they got so good at groundfighting was that they hadn't learned the entire Judo curriculum from Maeda. If you only have a few things to work on, then you can work the crap out of them.
On the subject of sijo (or josi), I think anyone who bestows lofty titles on themselves are just asking for ridicule. You get recognized as the founder of an art by the students who revere you and try to emulate you; and most likely you're recognized after you're dead. If you have the arrogance to think that your agglomeration of techniques cherry picked from various arts that you studied for a couple years each represents deep learning, or that you have found a truly unique way to move a human body, you're deluded and deserving of ridicule.

[David Jamieson]

like in cooking -

the ingredients do not recognize the ethnicity of the cook.

same rings true of kungfu. if you have the wrong ingredients, you've had the wrong instructions.

peace

[dezhen2001]

for me this whole sijo and titles thing is real strange... ive met people who call themselves sigong or whatever but to me thats bs.

if im part of your lineage, and you are my teachers teacher, then ur my sigung - not to everyone, ur just mr. smith or whatever - maybe smith sifu to be polite.

the same for sijo... if ur the founder of what i study then ur my Sijo. BUT thats just speaking using the words - there is imo a LOT more to it than that...

for Aikido, O-Sensei Morihei Usheiba is said to have spent 20 years + working on his kokyu nage technique until it was refined and understood enough to become part of Aikido... has any one of these other modern 'sijo' EVER done something like that?

Aikido (something i have studied for a while and respect a lot) has a very clear and consice syllabus, the method of progression is natural but also adaptable to the person. They all follow the same principles and method of using energy/moving the body.

This is what i class as a complete skill - not a hodge podge mix of a few styles that all move and use energy differently...

Shorinji Kempo created by Kaiso Doshin So is another good example of a complete skill that is based on knoweledge of many others.

i think to really create something, it would take a LOT of thought, experimentation and understanding of the skills involved. Also a long period of time...

i just cant see how many people nowadays have this... and it doesnt matter where you are from imo - if u understand the skill the right way then u understand it.

just my ramblings :)
dawood

[KC Elbows]

'the ingredients do not recognize the ethnicity of the cook.'

Thank you, Kung Lek.

I've purposefully not commented further on that whole can of worms. I've been taught crappily by chinese who didn't think americans could do good kung fu. My experience was that they never attracted good american students because of THEIR attitude, not the american's, and I certainly never stuck around for it. I had wasted enough training time already, why waste your traininng time with someone who doesn't believe your entire race can hack it? And why would they waste their teaching time(money)?

On one side, this discussion borders on the topic of fraud in the martial arts, but on the side that deals with the concept of legitimate josi, there is entirely different resistance, and less reasonable.

[dezhen2001]

**** KC just saw how many posts you have!!!!!! :eek:

dawood

[KC Elbows]

Yes, I need to get a real job. This is the most boring job ever, at this point. If it were not for forums and writing my own stuff, I would fall asleep.

[dezhen2001]

im just addicted to the internet, never sleep and cant be bothered studying... typical student huh? :D

do u ever go to a chatroom? have u tried wens? I think it works thru firewalls...

dawood

[KC Elbows]

Actually, most of the time people bring up chatting is after I get off of work, and, what's really sad, is I almost never come on here at home. That's right, just about every insane post I have was paid for. What's really sad is that I'd kill for more projects, they know that there's nothing to do, but they just want to keep me.

When I was younger, this would probably have been my dream job. Now, it's tedious.

Haven't tried wens. The one they used to have here didn't work through the firewall, though.

[dezhen2001]

yup know what u mean... everyone is on US time while im in the uK and usually in bed when everyone is chatting :(

try: http://pub7.ezboard.com/bshaolinnorthwestforum.communityChat

if that doesnt work try going to:
http://pub7.ezboard.com/bshaolinnorthwestforum and click on join chat at the top of the page (small writing!)

hope it does then we can argue about jet li in real time ;)
dawood

[dezhen2001]

forgot to say u have to have an ezboard account and log in to get in :)

dawood

[KC Elbows]

I set up an account, and now it doesn't recognize that account. Let me try this again.

[KC Elbows]

Sorry, the firewall wins again.

[dezhen2001]

d@mn firewalls :mad:
there must be a way round it...

dawood