I'd like to share an experience

[ewallace]

About a month ago, something truely great happened to me. Here is some background:

About 2 months ago, my marraige started going downhill. Stuff happened and my wife took her things, and my daughter, and went to live with her mom (who lives here too). Things just kept getting worse and worse. I started drinking very heavily. It got to the point where everyday after work I'd pop open a beer or start hitting the liquor. I would drink by myself at home, with my friends at the bar, and even by myself at the bar. To me it was acceptable because even if for only a few hours, the pain was gone. Eventually I was drunk every single night. I would even drive home drunk (I know it's stupid, but I really didn't care at that point).

Then one morning, October 1st to be exact, I woke up at 3 in the morning, and was still kind of drunk from the night before. I realized right then that if I kept up my behavior I would most likely be dead in a few days. I started reflecting on who I was as a person, and I did not like what I saw. I made a list of all the things I did not like about my personallity. Believe me that list pretty much ruled out the qualities of a good person. I was pretty much emotionally dead. I made fun of everything and everyone. My attitude was purely negative, and I hated the idea of trying anything new, or meeting anyone new.

For some reason, the only place to go that popped in my mind was the church that we had been to a few times. It's a non-dominational church that teaches standard Christian values. They have great programs such as support groups, softball and volleyball teams, marraige counseling and groups, divorce care groups, a Harley-Davidson group, and many more programs that are totally free of charge. They are very accepting of people from all walks of life. It's no rock-and-roll type of church, but you won't get any funny looks if you come in with jeans and a t-shirt on.

It had been a few months since we had went to church. Anyways, I walked into the assistance Pastor's office. I sat down, looked him right in the eye, and said "Man, I'm in big trouble. I need help". Then the tears started to roll. I had not cried like that since I was like 5 years old.

It was then that I decided I was really going to devote myself and my time to studying the bible and living by it's teachings. I have not had a drop of alcohol since the night before I went into the church, nor do I have the urge. Since then I have found out some pretty awful things that have gone on during the last couple months in regards to my marraige. I will not go into the details but it's pretty easy to guess what happened.

The point to all this rambling is that I would have never, ever been able to handle everything that has happened in the last 30 days if it were not for my decision to walk into that church that morning. Everything has changed. From the music I listen to, to the way I think, to my entire outlook on life and it's purpose/meaning. I cuss very rarely, and that is a major improvement from my steady repetition of the "F" word every 4-5 words in a conversation.

Regardless of your opinion on religion, it is not a bad way to live (except if your an Islamic extremist...like dezhen2001:)). If you ever hit rock bottom like I did, and don't know where to turn, hopefully this story may provide you with an answer.

[Serpent]

Inspirational. Please don't take this the wrong way, but in my opinion you still have one more step to make.

You were low, then you leaned on a crutch which helped to bring you back up.

Throw away the crutch of religion now and you're really free. You're certainly intelligent enough to know how to be a good person without the lead weights of religious dogma.

Just my opinion. Whatever works, man. Good for you, for looking after yourself and for sharing.

[ewallace]

You're certainly intelligent enough to know how to be a good person without the lead weights of religious dogma.
That's just the thing. I did not know how to be a good person. I really thought I was a good person before because I have always been an honest person. Sometimes brutally honest. I cannot begin to explain the anger and rage that I have had to deal with my entire life. I struggled with it when I was in grade school, and still do today. Only when I started to use the bible as a guide to living did that rage subside greatly. It's not so much a crutch as it is a manual to me. I am more happy and free then I have been in a very, very long time. I grew up going to church until I was about 11 or 12. I had a bad experience with the church and never went back. So it's not like I have found something entirely new. I just see it in a whole new light. I think one of the most difficult things about Christianity is reading INTO the scriptures, and applying the teachings to modern day life.

[ewallace]

And it's not like I have all of a sudden turned into a saint. I have a long way to go. I never look down on others who do not believe. Just a month ago I was one of the not so nice folks walking the earth. In fact, the bible teaches that to condemn a person and say their faith is wrong, is wrong in itself. A lot of people either forget this, or do not realize or practice it.

Regardless of your (anyone's) beliefs on this subject, it's not a bad way to go, unless you misconstrue the teachings. I do not want this thread to turn into a debate about religion. I simply wanted to share my experience.

[joedoe]

Firstly, I am really sorry to hear about your family problems. I hope things work out for you, your wife and your child.

To address the point of religion - I try to keep the view that it is horses for courses. I was brought up as a strict Roman Catholic and even though I do not consider myself to be a practicing Catholic, my upbringing stays with me. There is a good side to this and a bad side.

The bad side is that to a certain degree I still have a lot of the hang-ups that go with being a strict Catholic. And I can't help thinking that I have been brainwashed - when I go to church for weddings etc. I am still able to make the right responses at the right times etc. etc. etc. No wonder my best friend calls himself a recovering Catholic :D

The good side is that it gave me a really good moral foundation during my formative years, and a deep spiritual side that I am not so sure I would have had without a strict religious upbringing.

Now I do not follow any formalised religion - I have a set of beliefs that are drawn primarily from Christianity and Buddhism (some say they are pretty similar anyway). However I can still see the value in a life where religion is a central pillar. It is not the life for me, but it can be valuable nontheless.

Serpent - I don't think religious belief has anything to do with intelligence. What religion can offer to people touches something within people that is beyond intellect, and goes all the way into the core of a person's being.

[Serpent]

Sure, I don't want to start a religious debate either. It certainly sounds like you have a very healthy attitude to what you're doing and that's a good thing. And, although this may seem contradictory, I don't like to put down people's faith. If it works for you, go for it. What I don't like is people that get "born again" and suddenly find all the answers from religion. That's usually very dangerous ground as religion, more often than not IMO, is used by people to control others.

Hmmm... this is going to be a religious debate if I continue. ;)

Whatever works for you, buddy. Just don't put a monkey on your back.

Even a midget one.

(What is this obsession I have with you and midgets!? :confused: )

[Leonidas]

Congrats Ewallace :D Hope your happy man.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by joedoe
Serpent - I don't think religious belief has anything to do with intelligence. What religion can offer to people touches something within people that is beyond intellect, and goes all the way into the core of a person's being.

I didn't mean to imply that religion and intelligence are mutually exclusive! :eek:

What I meant was that ewallace is an intelligent guy and can be a good person without the need for any third party to point the way. He can be a good guy with or without religion.

Some people are weaker in mind and/or spirit and need to be told what to do. That's why religion is so successful and so often abused.

But here I go again.... sorry!

I'll try to step away from this now. It's something of a pet subject with me, so please don't tempt me!

EWallace, I want to reiterate. Good for you on taking control of your life, in whatever way you choose, and I hope your family and your life become pleasures again.

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by Serpent



Some people are weaker in mind and/or spirit and need to be told what to do. That's why religion is so successful and so often abused.



Are you serious.

[Serpent]

Yes.

[Xebsball]

I am very glad it is working out for you, regardless of wich religious path you take for that :)

[Leonidas]

So basically every religious person in the world, say about 4+ Billion people are all weaker than you?

You just called about 80% of the worlds population mindless retards for believing in something.


I admit people in general can be stupid but thats pretty arrogant. For an 'intelligent' person like yourself......

:rolleyes:

[ewallace]

What I don't like is people that get "born again" and suddenly find all the answers from religion.
I think the key words in this statement are suddenly and all. I have to agree with that as well. I have only begun to find answers, and they are not so much answers as they are pointers. It will take many, many years to turn myself into the person I want to be. It's not like my prior characteristics just magically disappeared. My pastor had a really good analagy for this. It's like you are walking around while "piggy-backing" your "old self".

And thanks everyone for the words of encouragement. This is truely a trying time for me. As for the family situation, it is only going to intensify over the next few months or years.

[Shadow Dragon]

Ewallace.

I hope you get back on track and all the best for the future.

Serpent.

I agree with you to acertain degree, everybody needs a steady pole in their lives to which they can cling to during times of hardships.

It may be religion or work, KF, friends, hobbies whatever.

Take that away and most people will struggle to go on with their daily lifes.

Cheers.

[Serpent]

Leonidas. Why don't you read more carefully before leaping to conclusions. I said:



Some people are weaker in mind and/or spirit and need to be told what to do. That's why religion is so successful and so often abused.


Notice the word "some". If you're insecure in your religious beliefs and want to put yourself and every other religious person into that category, then fine, but don't b!tch at me. Are you belittling my beliefs!? :rolleyes:

I'm not going to respond to this any more on ewallace's thread. It's not the place for it. If you want to discuss this more, then that's fine by me but start a new thread for it. Leave this thread for its intended purpose of ewallace sharing his experience.

[ewallace]

Originally posted by Serpent
EWallace, I want to reiterate. Good for you on taking control of your life, in whatever way you choose, and I hope your family and your life become pleasures again.
Thanks bro. That means a lot coming from a midget fondler.

[Serpent]

What!? You can see me from there!?

:eek:

[ewallace]

The internet has eyes my friend...the internet has eyes.

[Serpent]

Dayum, I'm going to have to be more careful!

Just as well no one will be able to recognise me thanks to my gimp mask.

[TaoBoy]

I'm agreeing with Serpent here (this is becoming a scary trend.)

Religion is cool by me as long as the followers maintain their individuality and a sense of self. They are still whole even without their church or their God.

Well done EW and thanks for sharing.

Amen!

[FatherDog]

I'm an agnostic, myself. I've never seen any convincing proof that any particular God or gods exist. So since they're all (or mostly) about equally likely, it seems a bit foolish to pick one blindly. When some God or gods speaks to me, then I'll start being religious. In the meantime, I just try to act in a way that I think is decent. What I consider decent is purely personal to me, and I wouldn't try to impose it on anyone else.

I think a lot of the teachings in the Bible are very valuable, particularly a lot of the parables and sayings attributed directly to Jesus. I also think there's a lot of things in the bible (the Old Testament and most of Paul's gospels, for example) that are really questionable and possibly even dangerous to take at face value. That's why particularly devout and (especially) literalist/fundamentalist Christians worry me a bit.

All of which is just me narcissistically nattering on about myself and my beliefs, and has nothing really to do with the thread, of course. What's important is that you found the teachings in the Bible helpful, ewallace, and were able to use them to guide yourself out of a bad period in your life. As long as you stay tolerant and openminded, there's nothing wrong with that; quite the opposite. I'm glad you were able to help yourself, and I sincerely hope that your life continues to improve. Good luck!

[Leonidas]

as long as you cleared that up.

my mistake then.

[ewallace]

Good post FatherDog. Any kind of extremism is a dangerous thing. Forcing others to agree with your opinions or religion is not right in my book. I do see speaking to and/or teaching others about the word of God as a responsibility, but far too many see this as a duty to convert the "non-believers", and sometimes condemning them for their beliefs. I believe that is wrong. A paraphrase of a scripture states "Judge others and you will surely be judged" pretty much tells me what I need to know on that subject. Who am I to say anyone is wrong? I disagree with your opinion but I also respect it. And my disagreement is simply an opinion of my own. When people take it upon themselves to force their beliefs upon others instead of speaking to them about their beliefs is where a lot of problems begin.

[Serpent]

Quite right, ewallace. And they are usually the first to shout and holler about people oppressing their beliefs! ;)

If you haven't come across it already, I would suggest you do a net search for the Gospel of Thomas.

[Ryu]

Wow. Ewallace, I would never have expected that you were at rock bottom. In fact, I was under the impression that you were very happy and content. Just goes to show you about reality vs. the net. :)

Religion is a wonderful thing. Really. I applaude you, and I think you will start putting everything back in focus now. :) I'm happy for you. Good luck, and remember that beliefs mean little without actions to back em up. ;)

:D Oh yeah, and make sure not to take the "who am I to say who's wrong" stuff to the extreme..... it can become EXTREMELY dangerous and apathetic. :D ;)

But we all know that now anyway. :p

Good luck, and good life, my friend.

Ryu

[Serpent]

Actually, Ryu, you're totally wrong.

































:)

[Ryu]

Who are YOU to say that??

:D
:D
;)

[Serpent]

I am the bearer of the only pure and total truth.


Yours for only $99.99 plus s&h. ;)

[ewallace]

Thanks Ryu. I appreciate that.

[Ryu]

No prob. Meant every word of it.

Ryu

[rogue]

Good for you EWallace. I'm a frequently Lasped Catholic but over the last months we've been more involved in church than before.


You skeptics ever read any C.S. Lewis?

[KC Elbows]

eWallace,
Just saw this thread. I had no clue you were going through so much, so sorry if I ribbed you on some bad days, it was all because I think you're a stand up guy.:)

I'm a skeptic, but in the context of my own beliefs, I guess. My parents are very good catholics, I've got cousins who are very good lutherans, I had a teacher who's a very good taoist, and I believe those are the right systems FOR THOSE PEOPLE, just as mine is good for me. I'm glad that you have something as well.

[SLC]

Whether religion is a crutch or not is nonsense. That it helps is all that matters. Who among us lives without help from some source? The ability to accept the help we need is hardly a weakness.

Got chemo?
How about a cast for a broken leg?
Need a ride when the car broke down?
Use a teacher and a school to learn MA?

Is a broken spirit any different from a broken arm? No.

Finding the right help to make yourself better is wonderful.

The tragedy is to die without, afraid of being weak.

[SaMantis]

ewallace, good for you!

While I haven't been to church in years -- I'm more in an "ask questions, search for truth everywhere" phase, I don't knock anyone who's trying to regain a sense of spirit no matter what religion they choose.

'Crutch,' 'weakness,' whatever people call it, everyone gets weak sometimes, and everyone needs a crutch at some point. How else are you gonna heal?

[Braden]

Telling someone they're smart enough not to need religion would have been lilke telling Einstein he's smart enough he shouldn't bother with this math nonsense.

It's completely missing the point.

One of the great and unique advances of the Christian faith was to put God beyond judgements of right or wrong, to trash the notion of having to pick the right guy out of a bunch of candidates.

Scripture is revelatory. It's less about what it tells you and more about it enabling you to understanding something on your own terms. It's alchemical. For a reaction to occur, you don't just need reactants and products, you need the right conditions. Being revelatory means setting the right conditions.

Compassion means feeling a spark of joy over the shelter someone has found while lamenting the storm that drove them there.

You'll be in my prayers; and what good fortune may come to you, in my hopes.

[guohuen]

:) :) :)
Glad your doing better Eric. Use what works, discard what doesn't.


This thread has taken on a scholarly tone so I'll cheapen it for ya.
"Any time you see four priests you'll always see a fifth." Father Mike

[Cipher]

That's great. It's nice to see you found help when your going through rough times.

I can relate to your situation, different problems but similar mayhem.

[Stacey]

Just remember, think like christ, do like christ and ignore everyone else who says, "jesus would have done this or he really meant this" This includes the apostle Paul.

Otherwise its just the blind leading the blind. Focus on love and the symbolism of the bible. The enlightenment in the abyss, the act of sacrifice. don't just live vicariously via Jesus, feed yourself to others. Give of yourself. in order to enli Your energy, your time, your thoughts. If Jesus can allow himself to be strapped to a cross, then we can learn to live selflessly. This is the same lesson as the native american sun dance.

Don't get caught up in all that lent crap either. Jesus didn't. He went to the temple as a child, but as an adult, he took off for the mountains and did a serious vision quest in the dessert, where he recieved his vision and brought it back to the people.

What did he mean when he said "I and the father are one" Your pastor will say, "He meant he was God"

of course he also could have meant, we are all one entity and that is God. I and I to use the Jamaican phrase.

Bottom line....frut and tree. Are the people at your church plasticly happy, driven by fear of hell, or opiated by having everything answered, or are they genuinely enlightened folks with a profound sense of mystery and surrender.

[sweaty_dog]

Whether or not you have faith in God it is good to be a part of a community of people that are focused on helping each other and having some standards of behaviour. Even though I don't share all their beliefs it is hard to deny that Christians do a lot of good for the world. Good luck ewallace, you are brave to write this post.

[Stacey]

yeah, thanx for sharing, although we are annonymouse, it is still hard to write something like that. It did take courage and thats good to see that your are starting by sharing your experience.

[Badger]

That's awesome E!

I will keep you & your family in my prayers.


Now go eat a bacon sammich Bro.;)


Badger

[fa_jing]

Religions are generally currents of thought that span over thousands of years, including the heartfelt contributions of many wise and good people. Religious communities such as to one Ewallace is a part of often consist of people that are willing to help each other "for goodness' sake". It's amazing how many people, so caught up in their individualism, can't see the beauty and benefit of such a reciprocal arrangement. To be a part of or benefit from such a movement is a very worthwhile and rewarding aspiration. You are no less of an individual because you freely choose to participate in a movement that goes beyond you own self.

[Ford Prefect]

Ewallace,

I'm not a believer in God or Christ, but I have read the bible a couple times and went to Catholic high school. I think the lessons of the Bible are wonderful and full of interesting parables that can help one through hard times and self discovery. My best friend recently went through a spiritual change himself, and it really is inspiring how quickly one can change their life with the right guidance. A great book that helps keep things in perspective is by a man named Krishnamurti entitled Freedom from the Known

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by rogue
You skeptics ever read any C.S. Lewis?

Read the whole Narnia series in junior high. One of my favorite ironies is that they're on the list of banned books by many fundamentalist Christian organizations because they depict magic... despite the fact that they're a fairly blatant Biblical allegory. Ah, fundamentalists...

[Nevermind]

Hey, EWallace! I commend you on the path you have chosen to take. I wish you and your family much success and happiness. Stay true to yourself and your new found faith. Everything else will fall into place for you, I'm sure. God bless!

[ewallace]

Thanks to all for your kind words. And to you too Stacey, I have not been all that kind to you in the past.


I had no clue you were going through so much, so sorry if I ribbed you on some bad days, it was all because I think you're a stand up guy.
Didn't happen. If anything it would have brought a smile to my face on a day without many smiles. And it's not like I lost my sense of humor either. It has just been cleaned up a little:)

[Azure]

Just remember, think like christ, do like christ and ignore everyone else who says, "jesus would have done this or he really meant this" This includes the apostle Paul.

Stacey,

I find it hypocritical that you would say this, only to go on tell us what your interpretation of one of Jesus statements is:


What did he mean when he said "I and the father are one" Your pastor will say, "He meant he was God" of course he also could have meant, we are all one entity and that is God. I and I to use the Jamaican phrase.

Also I would be curious as to know how you would suggest we know how Christ acted and taught without the disciples account of his life? Regardless of whether or not you think the bible is the word of God (which I do). Also since you are talking about the Christian Faith: by definition one cannot call himself a Christian unless he accepts Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior who died on the cross for our sins and was ressurected. I am curious therefore, since you seem to have such an open minded aproach to peoples beliefs, how you propose we think like the Son of God? Unless we use the bible as a guide, which would be granting it authenticity by default.

I would also be interested to know why you seem to Single out Paul? I would have thought that he would be particularly comforting in ewallace's situation, Paul after all persecuted and killed a great many Christians before he came to Know Christ. He then went on to became one of the greatest Evangelists in the new testiment. I find it encouraging that anyone, no matter what thier past can come to know and love God and be fruitful.

I read someone mentioning the Gospel of Thomas, To give a full account would be giving a history of the bible. So i'll be brief: There were a lot of Manuscripts and letters written during the time of Jesus and reletivly shortly thereafter. Basically people wanted to be able to sort out genuine teaching from forgeries (there were people writting letters in Pauls name for example). After much Pray, the letters and other written documents that make up our New Testimate were revealed by God to be cannon (the word of God). The Gosple of Thomas was not.

The Catholic Church, however adopted some of these into thier Bible to justify some of there practises during the reform period. These books are called Apocrypha. If your interested in this period I suggest you read 'The Bondage of the Will' by Martin Luther.

[Stacey]

I havent been deserving of kindness, don't worry, I'm nearly a troll, besides, I find it funny when people make fun of me, it let me let go of the internet ego and is good practice for letting to of the other one I have in daily life.
I say stuff to disillusion people and make them think of things in another way.


One of my favorite thoughts is from a persian poet. Maybe it was Haffiz. Anyways it goes something like this

How can the iron upon the forge complain when the Master Blacksmith forges it in hot fire and strikes it with a hammer? It is in this way that masterfull objects are made.




I think the CS Lewis reference was to "Mere Christianity" a rational argument for Christianity. A good read, no fully rational, but well worth the read. A series of essays, a quick read.

One image I liked was that when people say that they can't trust Jesus because the only reason he didn't sin was because he was a demigod and had an unfair advantage. Lewis compares this to somone drowning in a river not taking a branch from a friend because they have an unfair advantage of footing.

.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Azure
Also since you are talking about the Christian Faith: by definition one cannot call himself a Christian unless he accepts Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior who died on the cross for our sins and was ressurected.


Actually, the definition of Christian is

n.

1.One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2.One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

Taking definition 2, anyone who felt that Christ's teachings (love thy neighbor as thyself, etc) were a good way to live their life and thus lived according to them could call themselves a Christian, regardless of whether or not they believed he was the Son of God.



I would also be interested to know why you seem to Single out Paul?


Sigh... I was hoping this thread wouldn't turn into a religious argument...

I think Stacey probably singled out Paul because he's the originator of verses like

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men....(Eph. 6:5-7)."

"As in all the churches of God's holy people, women are to remain quiet in the assemblies, since they have no permission to speak: theirs is a subordinate part. If there is anything they want to know, they should ask their husbands at home: it is shameful for a woman to speak in the assembly.(1 Co 14:34-35)"

"During instruction, a woman should be quiet and respectful. I give no permission for a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. A woman ought to be quiet. (1 Tm 2:11-12)"

None of these are part of the apocrypha or Gospel of Thomas, they're all parts of the Bible that you note as revealed to be canon.

I'm all for following the teachings of Christ, but the teachings of Paul leave something to be desired. Which is probably what Stacey was referring to.

I'm sure you mean well, but your response sounds a lot like you're trying to tell ewallace and Stacey how they can and can't be Christians, and that's not really a good way to come across.

Granted, I'm probably coming across like a pedantic, argumentative ******* myself. Can we all just get back to wishing ewallace well? Or at least, if we're going to hijack the thread, get bacon sandwiches and porn involved somehow? :D

[Stacey]

by defenition I can call myself a Christian because I follow in the path of Jesus. Jesus is the son of God.

NEWSFLASH, SO AM I.

Was what I said blasphemous. It was when Jesus said it too, but you missed the point then and you miss the point now.


Many Sufi mystics have said this too and were put to death,


Everything Jesus was against was formed in the Cannon. Jesus wasn't Christian, he was Jewish. And now he is neither, Heaven has no religion. religion is for men.


After much prayer, I just invented the new Cannon. It involves, poems by Haffiz and Rumi, the Tao Te Ching, Tibettan Book of the Dead, The Torah, Revelations, Psalms, BlackElk Speaks. The Koran, the Vedas. Instead of lent, I think people should be sundancers and women should cut pieces of their shoulder off to symbolize the unity and giving of ourselves for the people. I think people should fast in the desert instead of avoiding fish on a given day. The only priests should still be Jewish and they'll still do animal sacrifices.


This compilation holy books and traditions are no less christianity than the ones commonly refered to as christianity. In fact, I would venture to say that they are more christian.

I am more Christian now than when I attended church 5 times a week and did bible study. Before I was studying to be a Pharisee. Thats what happens when the blind lead the blind. Go into the desert and have your own vision, let God be your teacher.


Fatherdog, You nailed why I think Paul is a loser. He took a Shamanic (Understanding the basics and having a personal experience that you can bring back to the peopel and heal them with)view of Judaism and fuct it up.

[dezhen2001]

ewallace: glad to see that ur better buddy :) although im muslim and your christian, we follow the same God, so its a great thing :) for me too, slowly i am starting to see how i can reorganise my life and actions to do something better... its an amazing thing and somethign realy unexpected!

also - why does religion have to be a crutch? why can't it be a strength?

dawood

[Stacey]

It is your strength if it is out of submission (lit Islam)

As Jesus said, "My strength is made perfect in weakness"


If its you pocket book for all the answers, I think its a crutch, but sometimes we need a crutch in order to heal.

[dezhen2001]

to me the qur'an al kareem is a book that we have to understand WHY things should be done a certain way, as well as how to grow as people and help others... remember Islam also recognises the other Messengers and Prophets of God (including Jesus), but lets not go there (as idon't know enough about it yet :)).

thats why i say religion is a strength, as it develops intelligence and understanding of human nature, as well as a strong relationship with God. it gives you a guide to follow the right path, but its up to you to learn and follow that path...

dawood

[Azure]

Stacey, Fatherdog,

We obviously have differnt definitions a being a Christian, the way I have been taught, studied and accept is that Jesus is the Son of God, he came to earth as a man (John 1:14, Phil 2:5-8) to die for our sins (Isa 53:5, John 1:29, Rom 5:8), he was ressurected (John 20:19-29, 1 Cor 15:1-8) and all that belive in him may have eternal life (John 3:16, Rom 3:23-25, 1 Peter 1:3-5).

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus" Seems to come up as inadiquate and personally I would take the word of God over a dictionary defintion of what a 'Christian' is. Taken as a whole that statement could be considered a true definition of a Christian as Jesus taught all that I have said so far. However when you start to pick only select teaching such as 'love thy neighbor as thyself' and disposing of the rest it comes up as wanting.

Fatherdog:
One issue when talking about the Bible is that it is very easy to take a verse out of context, as you have done with Paul. For example, while you quoted Ephesians 6:5-7, you failed to continue on, here is a larger portion of the verse:

"1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might." Ephesians 6:1-10

This deals with the whole issue of authority, from both sides. Parents and children, slaves and masters. Slaves were a reality of the time, not only does he tell them to be obidient, he also tells there Masters to treat them well. You'll notice he doesn't actually condone Slavery.

Stacey I find it strange that you would profess belife in Christ and indeed call yourself a Christian, yet many of the Teachings on the list of 'Holy' Books you mention are not compatable with Christian belifs or indeed the very concept of Jesus Christ. The Koran, for example, teaches that: God has no Son, Jesus did not die on the Cross, he was only a prophet etc. Most profound of all Salvation in Islam is only achived if a Martyr in Jihad (Even Muhammed was not sure of his own salvation on his death bed as he did not Die in a Jihad), Salvation is Christianity is achived by repentace of sin and acceptance of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.


I'm sure you mean well, but your response sounds a lot like you're trying to tell ewallace and Stacey how they can and can't be Christians, and that's not really a good way to come across.

I am not trying to tell how to generally live there life as a Christian. I am however absolutly, with no hestation and absolute conviction telling them how to be a Christian in the first place. There is no other way and anything else is Blasphemy.

Thats not to say it's wrong to be at a stage where you are still deciding whether to accept Jesus. However once you call yourself a Christian the above applies.

"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me."" John 14:6

[dezhen2001]

azure: not wanting to start a religious argument on these fine pages :)

But Jihad means a struggle in the name of Allah swt... getting up early enough to do the morning prayer and the other 5 each day is hard for some people - this is Jihad... not drinking alcohol or doing other bad things when the temptation is all around is jihad... not the common image of some crazy ass terrorists blowing themselves up and killing themselves. Being a martyr sure, it means dying in the name of Allah swt but NOT taking your own life... big difference.

the Quran has many verses that explain this and also why, but i dont wanna bore u guys with it :)

Also the most profound of all salvation is NOT Jihad, but something called Dawah, which is showing others the beauty of Islam and helping them grow... thats the best way :)

dawood

edit: bad terminology - no such thing as the 'most', it depends on Allah swt :) But there are better things to be doing than others... mas genocide and other things are NOT on the list ;)

[Stacey]

give me any dogma, any philosophy and I will find biblical backing for it.


Your doing the same thing. Pick and choose your verses, pick your interpretation.

At Lutheran school I had to do a report on the Trininty. I found more references to reincarnation, a Christian beleive until the church found that they would get more money and converts if people didn't just think "I'll be good next life" Same with priest marriage.

The bible isn't so solid, its more like a politically involved game of telephone.

[dezhen2001]

everyone has thei rown interpretation - even happens in martial arts - look at all the WC 'lineages' for example - all from yip man but some differences (the core is the same though)

dawood

[Ryu]

:(
Jesus, everyone's fighting and bickering over your words again. Tell them to stop.

[Ryu]

". The Koran, for example, teaches that: God has no Son, Jesus did not die on the Cross, he was only a prophet etc. Most profound of all Salvation in Islam is only achived if a Martyr in Jihad (Even Muhammed was not sure of his own salvation on his death bed as he did not Die in a Jihad)"

I enjoy when people don't know the reality of a subject, and begin explaining that subject as if they know something about it.
Then use incorrect information as a basis for an argument about that subject.

Ryu

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Ryu
I enjoy when people don't know the reality of a subject, and begin explaining that subject as if they know something about it.
Then use incorrect information as a basis for an argument about that subject.


I enjoy bacon sandwiches.

....but seriously... Azure, you're just about entirely incorrect in your assessment of Islam. I mean, seriously misinformed. You should try reading the Quran before you go making statements about it.

I consider a lot of Paul's statements entirely indefensible... even with context, it's hard to see how 'Slaves, obey your masters' doesn't condone slavery... or how his other remarks don't demean women.

But I'm an agnostic, so it makes little sense for me to debate the details of Christian religion with you... and more to the point, I think hijacking this thread into a religious argument is kind of demeaning to ewallace... since he started this as a frank confession of things that had happened to him and steps he'd taken. We should concentrate on supporting him in his endeavors and helping him to live his life in a manner that's good for him, not argue about whose imaginary friend has the bigger dick.

That's pretty much all I have to say about that... lets keep this thread positive, folks. It brought forth a lot of community support for ewallace, and some of the most serious, thought provoking, non-trolling posts I've seen from Stacey, ever. Let's try and continue in that vein.

[dezhen2001]

exactly ryu and fatherdog :) i was just chipping in coz i didnt want people to have the wrong idea... but whats up with the bacon sammiches? :(

ewallace: smile and take it easy bro :)

dawood

[Azure]

". The Koran, for example, teaches that: God has no Son, Jesus did not die on the Cross, he was only a prophet etc. Most profound of all Salvation in Islam is only achived if a Martyr in Jihad (Even Muhammed was not sure of his own salvation on his death bed as he did not Die in a Jihad)"

I enjoy when people don't know the reality of a subject, and begin explaining that subject as if they know something about it.
Then use incorrect information as a basis for an argument about that subject.

When I said 'Most profound of all' I meant it in terms of the incompatability of the Islamic and Christian faith, not that statement being the most profound in Islam.

I would like to if you disagree with any other statements about Islam, here are a few verses from the Koran to back up my statements.

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah.s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" Sura 9:30

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters [Jews and Christians] wherever ye find them, and take them [captive], and besige them, and prepare for them an ambush" Sura 9:5

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."
Sura 5: 51

[dezhen2001]

Azure: funny how u can take a few lines out of context from the chapter yet u urself called Stacey up on it before :)

As i said I DON'T WANNA START A RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION ON THIS THREAD as it should be a happy thread, that someone who was lost has found their direction again, and a kfo friend is getting better :)

BUT i feel i have to explain my beliefs, so that people dont judge on what you have said alone...

Surat al-taubah (chapter 9) was revealed when the prophet (pbuh) and his followers were in the middle of defending themselves from many people. If you read up on the life of the prophet (pbuh) u will understand this...

9.5 uses the word Mushrikun, which is NOT jews and christians... it means disbelievers in the Oneness of God and disbelievers in His prophets (pbu them all). ie. the people he was fighting and defending against!

9.30 is out of context... lets look at the preceeding verse like u did with Stacey: [9.29]: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

That makes reference to Jews and Christians who are 'subdued' - even that is a bad translation... it basically means more those who are living in an Islamic state... so 9:30 basically explains the difference between Muslims, and the Jews and Christians that may be living in the Islamic state.

as for your reference to 5:51, u really have to look at the preceeding verses and whole capter (surat)... but i wont add more words here (sorry if this is too long ryu, just defending myself ;))... also it can depend on the translation from arabic, which is why i used the arabic words...

i think my point is clear enough :)

my last post on this thread arguing about religion...
dawood

[Stacey]

None of those holy books are incompatable with the teachings of Jesus. Not one.


Christianity is good, I just wasted a lot of my Christian life in idol worship of an idea that was created by men about God. It might as well be made out of wood because it is man's creation. Now I have no pretense about God except that through my own visions I can tell you that its all a unified bliss. Perhaps Nirvana as the Hindu say it. And we are all apart of it.

God doesn't deal in sins and heaven. That is for spiritual/moral infarnts to keep them in fear of the law and help them fit in society. Your sins bounce off the wall and hurt you NOW. The only reality is Love, the rest is a smoking mirror. Don't believe me? Good, go up on a hill and experience it yourself.

Jesus did, Mohomed did, Buddah did. How about we stop making poetry about people who eat from the tree of life and have a taste for ourselves. Not for you, not for me, for US.

[Azure]

dezhen2001,

The point I was making is that Christianity and Islam have fundamentaly differnt belifes... which often means they oppose each other. I fail to see how you can take:


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

or


9.5 uses the word Mushrikun, which is NOT jews and christians... it means disbelievers in the Oneness of God and disbelievers in His prophets (pbu them all). ie. the people he was fighting and defending against!

And disagree with this. The belife in Jesus as The son of God goes agisnt the principal of the 'Oneness of God' that you talk about. 'Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day' seems quite strongly worded, etc. I was merly trying to demonstrate incompatability.

I aplogise if you considered the verses out of context, however given that there are over 200 passages in the Koran that call upon Muslems to fight Christians and Jew in particular and as well as other unbelivers I would have though there meaning would be hard to deny, regardless of context.

Given the sheer volume of these passages I would find it odd that you deny this. Since you suggested going back to the Arabic: the very word Islam means not only deviton to Allah, but also subjection of the world to his will...

[Ryu]

"sorry if this is too long ryu."

Not a problem, Dezhen, I study religion with a lot of passion so I actually enjoyed the passeges very much. No trouble at all.

Stacey,
While I agree with you to a certain extent, remember that a religion or life-philosophy of any kind is BUNK without moral action and thought.
So "God" very much does deal in sin and the like, however it becomes a much harder concept to grasp then the likes of an evangelist running around telling everyone they're evil. ;)

This post is going to degenerate into an ugly battle of religion..... I can feel it coming. So before it does, I'ld like to say to ewallace, that despite any garbage getting written here... you made a great choice, and I hope you'll get to enjoy the benefits and peace it brings for years to come. :)

Take care,
Ryu

[eulerfan]

a smoking mirror?

[dezhen2001]

ryu: ur a gentleman and a scholar sir :)

ewallace: sorry that ur thread has come to this :( i know that for example both of us have slightly different beliefs, but i respect you (and others) as good people, and wish u luck in whatever u do :) glad that u have found some peace after such turbulence :)

azure: well saying as you still didn't heed either ryu's or my own suggestion to stat a new thread on this, and still insist on attacking my own beliefs (it seems me and tae li are the only active Muslims on this board?), what am i supposed to do? Just let you do this? :rolleyes:

The passages in the Qur'an al-kareem were revealed during certain stages of the Propher Muhammads life (pbuh), when certain things were happening. Surat 8 and 9 were revealed when there were many people attacking the 'new' Muslims, so they had to defend themselves. From studying the history and background of the time, as well as the prophets life i can clearly see this...

You say Jews and Christians, and i explained the word meant ALL 'disbelievers', so why just pick those 2? Fight does not have to mean a physical struggle or battle - it can be fighting to follow your beliefs when other people (like you are now) are putting down Islam and looking down on me because i am Muslim and don't follow what you believe. Sometimes the translation can affect things, and also sometimes it's not so literal.

the main part of that Ayat (verse) is: until they pay the Jizya with willing submission which you TOTALLY overlooked...

Remember they were trying to create an Islamic state, and accomodated christians as well as jews even up until the Islamic state collapsed... they paid some 'tax' (dont know the exact translation) because they were living in an islamic state and were not Muslim.

i agree there is some incompatibility regading Jesus and recognising Muhammed as a messenger of God etc. but really why does it have to turn in to an argument? i'm happy for you to have a belief system that can enrich and help u grow in life... likewise i hope you are for me. Hopefully both of them will bring us closer to God and we can do many good things to help other people.

Islam means living our life submitting to the will of God and following the path he has laid out for us through the Scriptures and the Messengers... not submit THE WORLD to the will of God. Where did you learn this if you dont mind me asking? It immediately contradicts with one of the key sayings in Islam: "there is no compulsion in religion", which means that eeman (faith) cannot be forced upon anyone as God can see inside the heart.

Don't really wanna quote anything religious or argue like i said, but 2:213: "For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight." so why argue and let God decide... as he already will and has :)

to all the rest for reading this: i apologize for drawing this out, and just hope we can agree to disagree and get back to tlaking Kung Fu - which seems to be a rarity nowadays ;):D

dawood

[dezhen2001]

:( i said the second last post would be my last one... bowing out of this whole thing now. i hope people can look for themselves and not judge others based on their beliefs... :)

thanks

dawood

[eulerfan]

http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/prod.aspx?p=landover.3682427

[dezhen2001]

lol :D

dawood

[rogue]

Personally I found it offensive, but then I'm just a Christian and my faith is allowed to be ****ed on. I'll withhold my views of Islam out of respect for you dawood.:mad:

[dezhen2001]

i wasnt laughing at the pics :( just the attempt at humor at that specific moment in the thread...

sorry that it wasnt clear :(

dawood

[rogue]

How would you feel if it was a picture of Mohammed? I believe that Jesus was more than a prophet and find what eurlerfan posted offensive. But hey it's America and people can say what they want, and I can respond like I want. And Jesus was forgiving and so am I. What else could I expect from someone who watched all the American Ninja movies back to back. :)

If you want to laught then laugh at this (http://www.numchucks.com/)

[rogue]

Dawood, as long as this thread is about conversions what attracted you to Islam?


And no I'm setting you up I'm sincerly interested.:)

[Stacey]

That thong is cool


As for the incongruency of those holy books, that further exemplifies the mess people get into with the bible, which is no more or less random. Their are striking incongruencies and philisophical differences from book to book, But when you see them for what they are and what they are not, it doesn't matter.

These books and others give us wisdom and our bodies know them the way we can feel better after a archetypal dream. Jonah was swallowed by a big fish, Fin mac Cumail also recieved wisdom from a fish in the deep, the wisdom from the subcontious. All of these stories are good, whether your wisdom comes from an apple in eden or the golden apples in Asgard, it is the same,

The tree of life wasn't in Persia, its here, now. Eat of it, its Taoist endorsed, Life or knowlege of good an evil? When you let go of good and evil....yin/yang, you arrive at Tai Chi which is a blissfull nirvanic paradise. To get caught up in good and evil is to be expelled from paradise and to know shame.

Smoking Mirror means not seeing clearly.

[dezhen2001]

rogue: im truly sorry if u thought i would be so low as to laugh at something like that :( but i agree we do need some humor now...

american ninja: how did u know i watched them all back to back? :eek:
also the numchuk guy looks like one of my uni lecturers! kinda scary! :D

As for what attracted me: i was protestant as a kid, until i started to really think about things and realise that none of my RE (religious education) teachers were really teaching us anything about how to live our life and be good people. When i started MA at age 8, as i grew up i began to read more about the history and philosophy etc. That lead me to kinda Chan and Taoism i guess... as much as i could get from books anyway.

Then when i came ot university these last 2 years i made a good friend from saudi arabia. Hes a very intelligent guy (now doing a phd in biomedical science in oxford!) and we spent many late nights just talking baout what we think and believe. i found some of what he thinks is very similar with what i already think, and of course he is talking from the Islam perspective... so slowly i began to look more in to this. After 9/11 i decided to find out more about islam as i knew that it's definately NOT what the media showed or what the terrorists followed, as i had 5 or so good friends who were Muslim.

then came one miss tae li in to the picture ;) She basically kicked me up the arse and we talked a lot about what we think and believe. Our 'friendship' developed form there.

Really after i had one of the hardest 6 months of my life, things just clicked in to place, and i understood that Islam (the belief in the oneness of God as the creator of all things) was basically what i believed... also that islam includes all the other prophets as well as Muhammad, and the old testament etc. SO it was just a logical step.

thats it really :p

But i respect all things and all points of view, even if i dont neccessarily agree with them. Even what everyone says here, it makes me look to islam and find out the truth or how to apply it to my life in a better way.. :)

hey if u can get thru a firewall, some of us are in wens chatroom now...

http://pub7.ezboard.com/bshaolinnorthwestforum

if you have an ezboard login anyway, and its at the top left of the page...

thanks rogue,
dawood

[eulerfan]

Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to actually offend. I figured it was over the top enough not to.

dezhen hit the nail on the head. It was the timing that was meant to be funny. I've been saving that for when the thread got its heaviest possible.

Do you see what I mean? Posting something that overly tactless at such a heavy moment? It's funny, don't you think?

I'm the brunt of that joke. Not Jesus.

That's how I meant it, anyway.

[dezhen2001]

eulerfan: don't worry, these things happen... i often put my foot in my mouth :)

but yup, things definately needed to lighten up lol

dawood

[Stacey]

There was nothing inapropriate about that. It was perfect. Perfectly timed, a great gift. I think I'm gonna buy it as a present. Well, first I need to screw her, then I'll give her a pair.

Besides, Jesus was always ****ing off religious nuts. He was quite the Heyoka.

Heyoka is a Lakota clown. They used humor as spiritual medecine to help people lose their attatchments.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by rogue
What else could I expect from someone who watched all the American Ninja movies back to back. :)

Hey, I can give you WAAAAY more embarassing reason to ignore me than that.

Here's a good one:

And, this isn't something that I did once in an especially distracted moment. I do this on a regular basis. I'll be in my car and I'll start feeling cold. So I turn down the radio. Then, I kid you not, minutes will pass before I realize that what I did didn't work.

I'm still cold and, NOW, I can't hear the music.

[Ryu]

Hey Stace,
I'm usually pretty interested and open-minded to religions of the world, and I'm thoroughly interested in the philosophies and moralities behind them.

Usually I'm like that.

Your "religion" blows......


Ryu

[cha kuen]

Great story Ryu.

-cha kuen
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25

[Ryu]

Glad it could be an inspiration.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by Stacey
Smoking Mirror means not seeing clearly.

Like when a magician uses smoke and mirrors to obfuscate his true actions?

[Tae Li]

Just dropping in a smile for all u boys, especially Ewallace:)

And a special wink for Dawood;) lol

Tae Li;)

[Stacey]

Its a Mayan phrase. It mean that looking in a mirror we see clearly, but with smoke in the way or milky/smokey class, our view is distorted.

Our thoughts are said to be the smokey mirror inhibiting us from seeing the tao.

[straight blast]

Congratulations brother! I will keep you in my prayers. It's always an inspiration for me when I see people speak with love for the Lord. These days I see too much love for the LAW...

e.g.

I am however absolutly, with no hestation and absolute conviction telling them how to be a Christian in the first place. There is no other way and anything else is Blasphemy.

as opposed to love for the Lord. Beware the modern-day Pharisees and walk in the light of love.

Peace!

P.s. Hope it all works out marriage wise...if it doesn't, keep trusting in the Lord. He does indeed have a plan! :)

[Serpent]

Azure
I read someone mentioning the Gospel of Thomas, To give a full account would be giving a history of the bible. So i'll be brief: There were a lot of Manuscripts and letters written during the time of Jesus and reletivly shortly thereafter. Basically people wanted to be able to sort out genuine teaching from forgeries (there were people writting letters in Pauls name for example). After much Pray, the letters and other written documents that make up our New Testimate were revealed by God to be cannon (the word of God). The Gosple of Thomas was not.


:rolleyes:

“Religion is the opiate of the masses.”



dezhen
also - why does religion have to be a crutch? why can't it be a strength?


Because you lean on it. It also tends (read can, not always) to preclude your exposure to the remarkable teachings of people from other denominations, thereby narrowing your world view.



Azure
I am not trying to tell how to generally live there life as a Christian. I am however absolutly, with no hestation and absolute conviction telling them how to be a Christian in the first place. There is no other way and anything else is Blasphemy.


Egotistical, fundamentalist bollocks.



Ryu
Hey Stace,
I'm usually pretty interested and open-minded to religions of the world, and I'm thoroughly interested in the philosophies and moralities behind them.

Usually I'm like that.

Your "religion" blows......


Why? It’s the least blinded and passive so far.


There's more indoctrinated ignorance and blind following of faith on this thread than I thought possible. People should think for themselves. That doesn't mean read up on all the religions and choose one. It means think for yourself. You don't need anybody else's flawed human logic to further cloud your own mind. Dogma itself is a smoky mirror.

[rogue]

There's more indoctrinated ignorance and blind following of faith on this thread than I thought possible. People should think for themselves. That doesn't mean read up on all the religions and choose one. It means think for yourself. You don't need anybody else's flawed human logic to further cloud your own mind. Dogma itself is a smoky mirror. So you're saying that we should follow what you say? But if I do as you say then I'm not thinking for myself, but if I decide to follow what I believe to be the right path then I am. But according to you I'm not, but if I ... Ohh my head hurts and things are so smokey. :p

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

Even the atheist has faith and dogma that is no different than someone who believes in God.

"Have you ever seen the wind? I've never seen the wind, but I've seen the effects of the wind." Billy Graham

[rogue]

“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”
— 1 Corinthians 13:12

[Serpent]

Originally posted by rogue
So you're saying that we should follow what you say? But if I do as you say then I'm not thinking for myself, but if I decide to follow what I believe to be the right path then I am. But according to you I'm not, but if I ... Ohh my head hurts and things are so smokey. :p


:D

Hey, at least you're thinking, not following!

:p

[Ryu]

Religion, life-philosophy, belief-system, etc. is all horse chips to me if intense personal development, ethical understanding and humility don't find their ways into the equation.

Plain and simple.

I'm buddies with Kant, don't forget...
Ryu

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by rogue
Even the atheist has faith and dogma that is no different than someone who believes in God.

"Have you ever seen the wind? I've never seen the wind, but I've seen the effects of the wind." Billy Graham

I completely agree with the first part. I stopped going to atheist meetings because of that. It's just a bunch of bitter pedants who sit around bashing Christians. They'd go on and on about thinking for themselves. Then you ask what they are thinking for themselves and they start telling you what Ayn Rand said you should do.:rolleyes:

"Fu(k Ayn Rand, she was a **** poor writerer with no original ideas," I'm just contrary like that.

"You just don't understand her." People, just because the woman was a free thinker doesn't make you a free thinker for following her. By that logic, Christians are free thinkers, too. Can I get an independent thought?

So annoying and hypocritical. Not that all atheists are like that. Just the ones in my area.

Turned out the Humanists here are more my type of people.

HOWEVER, belief in the wind is not faith. As Billy Graham points out, there is logical proof that the wind exists. Faith is believing in something without logical proof, not believing in something you can't see.

[FatherDog]

Many atheists are, indeed, quite dogmatic. Some are very dogmatic about science, some very dogmatic about their personal philosophies. And some aren't, at all. Just like some Christians are dogmatic, and some aren't.

For that matter, anyone who believes anything can be dogmatic.

dogmatic:
adj.
1.Relating to, characteristic of, or resulting from dogma.
2.Characterized by an authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles.

The existence of JHVH, Allah, Jesus as a currently existing divinity, Zeus, Xipe Toltec, Amaterasu, Czernabog, Odin, The Great Spirit, Ja, Enki, Anansi, Papa Legba, or any other deity is unproved, and unprovable.

The non-existence of any of the above is also unproved, and unprovable.

The axioms of Objectivism are unproved, and unprovable, regardless of what Ayn Rand's cult of personality claims.

The axioms of humanism are unproved, and unprovable.

Anyone who chooses to believe any of the above is making a personal life choice. Anyone who insists on the truth of any of the above, and attempts to force those beliefs on others, is being dogmatic.

And, of course, the unprovability of any of the above is also unproved, and unprovable...

It's an uncertain world, innit? :confused: ;)

-FatherDogma

[fa_jing]

All you've shown is that proveability is a very inefficient way to make decisions.

I mean, if you had to "prove" which toothpaste you should buy, no matter what basis and framework you use to do this, chances are you'll still be in the supermarket aisle 5 years from now.

Proveability is just for fun. A useless passion.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by fa_jing
All you've shown is that proveability is a very inefficient way to make decisions.


I wasn't really trying to show anything about proveability, just noting that dogmatics exist in all belief systems. The only reason proveability even entered into it was that it's part of the definition of dogmatic.

[eulerfan]

Fatherdog,

The axioms of humanism ARE proveable. I think that a lot of the basic tenets of Christianity are AS proveable.

I think you consider something proven to be an unarguable, absolute truth. That's not necessarily true. To prove something, you just come up with a convincing argument. Every proof I've ever seen was just a convincing argument.

I mean, I don't think I know anything with absolute certainty. Except that I exist, cogito ergo sum.

I just find it disingenuous to say that you have faith in something because you've seen evidence that it exists.

[fa_jing]

"I think, therefore I am" But is the "I" that thinks the same as the "I" that is?

[eulerfan]

Who cares?

When I wonder if I exist, something exists that is questioning its existence. For want of a better word, I'll call that thing me.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by eulerfan
The axioms of humanism ARE proveable. I think that a lot of the basic tenets of Christianity are AS proveable.


If you think so, you're using 'prove' in a different sense of the word than I am...



I think you consider something proven to be an unarguable, absolute truth. That's not necessarily true. To prove something, you just come up with a convincing argument. Every proof I've ever seen was just a convincing argument.


Ah, so you are. I'm using 'prove' in the logical or (closely related) mathematical sense. So, no, the axioms of humanism, or Christianity, aren't proveable, in the sense I'm discussing. And, for that matter, most things aren't. Which is why almost any belief system can and does have dogmatics; because many things can't be proved one way or the other, you'll always have people on either side stridently proclaiming that their counterparts are wrongheaded, blasphemers, pinko commie lunatics, etc. Most of us sensible people, on the other hand, just let the other folks go about their business, since whether or not our neighbor's unproven assumptions match ours isn't really a valid daily concern.



I mean, I don't think I know anything with absolute certainty. Except that I exist, cogito ergo sum.

Nor do I. Which is why I'm an agnostic. ;)



I just find it disingenuous to say that you have faith in something because you've seen evidence that it exists.

I agree. I was just responding to the part about atheists faith and dogma.

Aside from a minor semantical quibble, I don't think we're really disagreeing here. Can we go back to bashing Ayn Rand? :D

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by FatherDog
Can we go back to bashing Ayn Rand? :D

....uh, that is, 'supporting ewallace'. :D

[rogue]

I think Eric said his church has volley ball. I like volley ball. Did Ayn Rand play volley ball?:confused:

[Ryu]

No. Volleyball implies the existence of God.


Ryu

[Serpent]

No, volleyball only implies the existence of a ball and the ability to volley it. To consider god in the context of volleyball is an unprovable act of blind faith and therefore nothing more than a trap of dogma.

(Ayn Rand sucks).

:)

[Shisio]

As posted within this thread is a device by which to undo men. Simply put one part of open heart, two parts of religion, stir and let sit. If you find some to be resistant to the brew, induce them to the hypocrisy of justifying the integrity of their beliefs. This way they will forget to support their initial intent. Ha, this was a humorous thread and the prefect example of pride leading just people to be quite inconsiderate.

It is unfortunate that Ewallace got away, it seems he may be stronger then he suspected...

P.S. for those who truly have pride in there beliefs, slip them a copy of "Conciseness explained" and "The Consumer" to dilute there conviction.

[dezhen2001]

hi rogue, i posted my reasons for becoming muslim before - dunno if u read it? :)

just letting u know
dawood

[Shisio]

Just above this I was mimicking C.S. Lewis's demons. I thought it might be a treat for some.

Ewallace, if your still reading this thread (it is insanely long...I cant believe I read it all, wait, how on earth did anybody else read this far...), I say- Good for you man. If I were under your stress I'd hope to stay so strong. I thought some of the responses on this thread where hilarious, and others insightful, though this threads subjects may not have been what you intended. Thanx for starting it, I got a lot out of it.

[dezhen2001]

i find threads amazing when they take on a life of their own :) human nature is amazing...

dawood

[ewallace]

Thanks Shisio. Yeah I have been reading this thread. Although I did not intend it to turn into a religous debate thread, it has remained quite civil and very informative, as this subject can very easily get heated. But mentioning religion and not having a debate is like mentioning bacon and expecting no one to mention how tasty bacon is on a sammich. Besides, I didn't want it to turn into a touchy-feelie-poor-me thread. I got some great words of encouragement and some laughs. What more could you ask for?

:)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by ewallace
I got some great words of encouragement and some laughs. What more could you ask for?

:)

Sounds like my sex life!

[ewallace]

Girl To Serpent: "Please take off your pants....please...please...it will be a lot of fun".

Serpent takes of pants.

Girl starts laughing.



Kind of like that?

[Serpent]

yeah.... kinda... :(

Actually, no. More along the lines of:

"Bit more to the left... that's the way... don't worry, you can do it... ha ha ha, ooh that tickles... yeah that's more like....oh, that's it?... ha ha, yeah, that was great..."

:)

[rogue]

hi rogue, i posted my reasons for becoming muslim before - dunno if u read it? Yup I did, thanks David. I guess my reply didn't make it. I'll figure out how to work this internet thing one day.;)

Too bad you converted before tasting a bacon sammich. Now you'll never know what you're missing! :D

[Arioch7]

I am not the most religious person in the world. I was raised strict Catholic Othodox, and then Protestent when my parents divorced.

I think of myself as a Buddhist now but DO NOT let peoples negative views affect your experience. IMHO, devout followers of Christianity are the most well-balanced, succesful folks I know.

Personally, I appreciate your story and admire what you have done. I dont see why you would ask your INternet buddies that will be relevant.

Some of them hate organized religion, some are of Eastern Religion and some are Atheists.

All of these things are worthy of debate but if you feel you have found peace, why ask others what they think? Especially if they disagree with you.

You do not need a philisophical debate, you need what you can believe in. It sounds like you have found it.

It seems like you come here for affirmation for an experience you have already had. Do not pay any mind to the posts that mock you or tell you to reach for something "Further"

It seems to me that you were content before someone told you that you were not. It may sound trite, but I think you have already found what you seek.

I have slightly different views but I will not take it upon mysle to lecture you... as a matter of fact, perhaps you could lecture ME!

[Arioch7]

Pardon the typos... of course, I worship nothing

[dezhen2001]

hey rogue: u know sometimes i DO miss pork - especially when im in chinatown and see or smell some char siu roast pork :(

its actually pretty funny - the city (at uni) is known for its roast pork - and we also have a pretty big Muslim community here so go figure... :D

actually even though i have had to change my lifestyle a little, its definately worth it for the clarity and purpose i now have :) plenty more interesting things to eat than pork and blood ;)

Arioch7: sometimes its worth talking with others to see a different viewpoint on things. Then u can look back at your own faith and apply or understand it better :) For example: the quotes i posted earlier i found after some people told me that Muslims hate all Christians and Jews... i investigated under the surface and found that not to be true.

ewallace: keep smiling :)

dawood

[Ryu]

Hey Ewallace,
have you seen "Jesus Christ Superstar?" It's probably one of my favorite musicals, and really enjoy the humanity that the film placed on Christ's emotions.
Some disliked it because it seemed to hint at a possible historical romance with Mary Magdilyn, but I was wondering if you've seen it, and what you thought? :)

Ryu

[Serpent]

Arioch, he wasn't seeking approval. He was just sharing and the rest of us started the debate.

Ryu, apparently there's a lot of evidence to suggest that the real person that the historical Jesus probably was (how's that for vague!) DID have a romantic involvement(s). A British geneaologist claims to have traced his line from his children right down to the modern day. Take it or leave it, it's interesting reading! ;)

And that "What's the buzz?" song in the Superstar rocks! :)

[Ryu]

Originally posted by Serpent
Arioch, he wasn't seeking approval. He was just sharing and the rest of us started the debate.

Ryu, apparently there's a lot of evidence to suggest that the real person that the historical Jesus probably was (how's that for vague!) DID have a romantic involvement(s). A British geneaologist claims to have traced his line from his children right down to the modern day. Take it or leave it, it's interesting reading! ;)

And that "What's the buzz?" song in the Superstar rocks! :)

Well Jewish tradition required Christ to take up the trade of his father, and marry.... so in a historical context you won't really hear any disagreements from me. I'm very into finding out about the historical Christ. (In all honesty, Jesus Christ is probably one of the most interesting and inspiring historical figures to me... so I study him a lot.)

Christ's song on the Mountain top.... "All I have to say" is one of my favorite songs period. It's just amazing. :)

"What's the buzz" rocks too. The whole score in that movie/play was great.

Ryu

[Arioch7]

Serpent, I hear you.

I admit I did not read the whole thread, so perhaps I was premature.

As for Muslims... I am versed in the Koran and know a smattering of Middle Eastern Language.

I have read the Koran since I was 15(Two Decades ago.) and travelled to every country you (Not you Serpent, but DNZ123, whatever... my apoligies.), might imagine.

With the exception of Turkey, they are all religous dictatorships. Turkey has now(As of last Dunday.) chosen to be a theocracy. It is a shame. Democracy has been voted out.

They are all living hell-holes now and if that is not Politically correct, sorry. It is nevertheless true. The funny part is that expatriates from the countries in question would agree with me.

By the way, US "IMperialism" has attempted to make them see that a free market where people are not beaten into submision is a good thing.

Hey, I advocate complete withdrawal from the region. The region WILL go t war, but I want to be exempt from thier psychosis. You might also look at the EU which is the left wing model of economic progress. Why dont you ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, they are there for you to see.

Ten years before the EU Psychos are at each others throats, I for one emphasize PEACE and NON-INVOLVEMENT. It should be amusing.

[Arioch7]

Ooops...

My bad!

[Braden]

Did the religion-as-crutch-ists miss my Einstein and math allegory, or ignore it?

Mr. Graham's parable about the wind isn't that the core of faith is in believing unseen things, but rather the absurdity, in general, of being asked to show the things you believe in.

As it's an interesting story, and pertinent at a number of tangents here: a Canadian neuropsychologist discovered some time ago that stimulation of an area on the temporal lobe elicited overt religious experience akin to mystical ecstasy/perception of god. This was taken by many as the ultimate scientific proof that religion was fraudulent, god a cultural artifact.

[Kay k]

"religion is the opium of the people" -Karl Marx

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by Braden
Did the religion-as-crutch-ists miss my Einstein and math allegory, or ignore it?

Mr. Graham's parable about the wind isn't that the core of faith is in believing unseen things, but rather the absurdity, in general, of being asked to show the things you believe in.


Using Einstein of all people to make this point is a little hard to swallow given that the man was one of the biggest religion-as-a-crutchists out there. But I agree with you. I, personally, find religion to be more of a tool than a crutch as well.

I can't personally convince myself that a god exists. That doesn't mean I rely on nothing but myself. I use philosophers and psychologists to the same end. I guess I could do it on my own but why would I? It's more expedient this way.

Whatever Graham meant is irrelevant to me. Rogue's juxtaposition of the quote and his own comment about faith made HIS intentioned point fairly clear, I think.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by FatherDog
[BAh, so you are. I'm using 'prove' in the logical or (closely related) mathematical sense. So, no, the axioms of humanism, or Christianity, aren't proveable, in the sense I'm discussing. And, for that matter, most things aren't. Which is why almost any belief system can and does have dogmatics; because many things can't be proved one way or the other, you'll always have people on either side stridently proclaiming that their counterparts are wrongheaded, blasphemers, pinko commie lunatics, etc.

Can we go back to bashing Ayn Rand? :D [/B]

Well, mathematics is a human construct. Everybody just agrees on the field. You can't argue with the assumptions because we originate the assumptions. If somebody looks at my proof and asks how I know that, for every x there exists a -x such that x + (-x) = 0, I'd have it easy. I'd just say, "That's how we define the field."

But even in a lot of mathematical proofs it does just come down to how convincing your argument is.

But, yes, Ayn Rand. What a tart.

[fa_jing]

Reminds me of my Abstract Algebra course. Instead of starting with +, -, *,/, we started with abstract symbols that exhibited various properties: Commutitivity, associativity, etc. Then we proved a bunch of math stuff in the abstract, considering the normal operators afterwards it was just a matter of which class they belonged to. Overall, a reduction of starting principles compared to what you normally study in Mathematics, yet many of the same conclusions were reachable without getting specific about the operators.

[ewallace]

Lewis: There's 6,127 students at Adams, 58% of which are girls.
Gilbert: So?
Lewis: So, that's 7,107.32 boobs.

[eulerfan]

ewallace has officially put to rest the age old freshman algebra question, "When am I going to need this in real life?"

"Do you really want to walk around the rest of your life not knowing how many boobs there are?"

:D

[Braden]

eulerfan

"Using Einstein of all people to make this point is a little hard to swallow given that the man was one of the biggest religion-as-a-crutchists out there."

Whether or not he was is irrelevant. This is the nature of metaphors. If someone tells you cyanide smells like almonds, you don't tell them they're being absurd, since almonds make you healthy and cyanide kills you.

As an aside, I don't agree whatsoever with your assessment of Einstein. I'm not sure how to reply to it, since you gave no explanation; and certainly, on the face of it, it doesn't seem to be true - as even a cursory glance at Einstein's writing shows constant reference to God, faith, miracles, etc.

"Whatever Graham meant is irrelevant to me. Rogue's juxtaposition of the quote and his own comment about faith made HIS intentioned point fairly clear, I think."

Are you sure?

Rogue used the quote to support: "Even the atheist has faith and dogma that is no different than someone who believes in God."

Are you sure it follows from this that rogue meant 'faith is believing in things you can't see', as you maintain? Or is a better interpretation, in light of rogue's juxtapostions and presumed intentions, that the relational essense of knowledge in general makes this line of questioning equally absurd for everyone, as I suggested?

[JusticeZero]

There is another concern:

I have seen many a person introspectively discover their faults, break down, and find religion... AND THE FAULTS REMAIN. Sometimes, they even become more monstrous than before, under the denial.
"I was once a lousy thief before I found Jesus!" "That's great man, but dude, give me my wallet back! ****, man, you even charged stuff to my credit cards, what is this?"
"I used to be a pervert before the Eye of Gawd shined down on me!" "Right.. Look, dude, you borrow my computer for one day and I find two megs of kiddy porn in the cache! What the hell happenned to the 'used to'?"

Religion will not magically remove your human faults. It can give you a support group to turn to. It can give you some philosophical counsel. But to change yourself and make yourself into the person you want to be will still require hard work, perseverence, and constant examination. This effort is the same for everyone, atheist, christian, or buddhist alike.

[ewallace]

Religion will not magically remove your human faults.
Exactly. It can help you overcome them. It's not like I don't get the urge to tell the driver who just cut me off that he's number one in my book. It's how you deal with that urge that you can use as a gauge to see how much you've really changed.

[rogue]

I really like volleyball.

I believe that Rev Graham was talking about while not being able to see God we can still see the effects of God.



actually even though i have had to change my lifestyle a little, its definately worth it for the clarity and purpose i now have plenty more interesting things to eat than pork and blood Oh yeah? Name one! :p And to call bacon pork is just an injustice that will have to be avenged. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :confused: :eek:


have you seen "Jesus Christ Superstar?" It's probably one of my favorite musicals, Ryu, I am so disappointed in you. :( I disliked it because it stinks. Beauty and the Beast is a much better musical and so is Meet Me in St Louis.:p

[Ryu]

"Ryu, I am so disappointed in you. I disliked it because it stinks. Beauty and the Beast is a much better musical and so is Meet Me in St Louis."


Jeez...... I'm really on your bad guys list lately.....


;)
Ryu

[dezhen2001]

rogue: chickens feet, octopus... thats 2 ;)


Religion will not magically remove your human faults. It can give you a support group to turn to. It can give you some philosophical counsel. But to change yourself and make yourself into the person you want to be will still require hard work, perseverence, and constant examination. This effort is the same for everyone, atheist, christian, or buddhist alike.

one of the best quotes in the thread imo :) Religion can give u a direction and possibly some clarity - but its up to u to act on it and change yourself :) I have met people from every major religion and talked with them and seen what kind of people they are... some get too concerned with changing others without understanding and changing themselves... for me its a sad thing :(

dawood

[Ryu]

"one of the best quotes in the thread imo "

Hey, I said the same thing with my "horse chips" comment, .... it was just a little condescending is all :D

Ryu

[dezhen2001]

hey ryu i said ONE of the best not THE best ;):D

dawood

[ewallace]

Believe me, I need everyone's prayers, blessings, candles lit, incense burnings, goat sacrifices...whatever to keep me from committing multiple felonies in response to some of the things I have found out the last few days. It seems the harder I try to do right, the worse things get.

[Serpent]

Can you hear that screaming goat, ewallace? That's for you, buddy. All for you.

Hope it helps.

Now I gotta wash all this blood off my face.

[guohuen]

Welcome to the path. Remember. This too shall change.

[dezhen2001]

eric: for me also although somtimes things are happy and clear, others its very dark, depressing and frustrating... this is the real test of ur metal. things always change as thats the nature of things, just keep going as best u can and be true to what you believe in. i know u can do it buddy :)

dawood

[fa_jing]

Ewallace - Why become a conduit of this bad experience, why pass it on to someone else? on the contrary - somewhere out there, there is someone that needs you, or will need you.

[straight blast]

There's more indoctrinated ignorance and blind following of faith on this thread than I thought possible. People should think for themselves. That doesn't mean read up on all the religions and choose one. It means think for yourself. You don't need anybody else's flawed human logic to further cloud your own mind. Dogma itself is a smoky mirror

If that isn't the most dogmatic piece of tripe I've ever read. If people are going to bash religion as being a sign of ignorance and blind following then could you please at least come up with something original yourself? Man if I had a dollar for every time I heard that phrase (or variations) I'd be able to afford to buy my own ranking in a system far, far away.

If only...:rolleyes:

But both Jesus and I still love ya!

[ewallace]

there is someone that needs you, or will need you.
Yup. I just put her to bed too.

[dezhen2001]

:)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by straight blast


If that isn't the most dogmatic piece of tripe I've ever read. If people are going to bash religion as being a sign of ignorance and blind following then could you please at least come up with something original yourself? Man if I had a dollar for every time I heard that phrase (or variations) I'd be able to afford to buy my own ranking in a system far, far away.

If only...:rolleyes:

But both Jesus and I still love ya!

Come up with something original myself? So you can follow that instead? Talk about missing the bloody point! :rolleyes:

And Jesus doesn't love me. He's a long dead political activist that has been mythically blown out of all proportion (at best!). How could he love me? As for you, way too arrogant for my liking. Why do you think I need your love?

[Ryu]

I love you, Serpent.... in THAT way.... you know it...

Ryu

[Serpent]

:eek: Mummy! :eek:








:D

[eulerfan]

Braden,

I'm going to hit you with some Einstein quotes in a second but let me address your other points.

I just said it was a little hard to swallow that you used him to make that point. I didn't suggest that it disproved your point. I, in fact, agreed with you. I just thought it unfitting to choose him for the metaphor.

I'm not sure that was what rogue meant. Hence the qualifiers. I THINK it's FAIRLY clear......I'm not maintaining that rogue was saying 'faith is believing in things you can't see'. If Graham meant that it's absurd to always ask for visible proof, he was right to do so. But I don't think that was rogue's point. Apparently, that isn't what you are saying and, frankly, I don't know what this means....."the relational essense of knowledge in general makes this line of questioning equally absurd for everyone"

My point went something like this, if you think you have evidence that god exists, don't call it faith and make with the evidence. If not, call it faith and say, 'I don't have proof, I have faith.' Becasue I think most atheists would insist that their beliefs are supportable with logic and evidence. To call that faith is a bit disingenuous. That's what I think.

As for Al........
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press


It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
-- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930

I could go on and on but you get the idea. Religion is a crutch and, if we can't walk without it, we're a pretty sad lot. You'll see him say that over and over, in many different ways. The man made reference to God. I'm sure everybody knows the one about dice and the universe. "Quit telling god what to do!" I think he meant it rhetorically when he did that.

[Serpent]

Dayum, I think I just fell in love with Eulerfan! :eek:

:)

[eulerfan]

Well thank you but, let me make it clear that I'm not agreeing with you that religion is a crutch. I'm just saying that Einstein thought that. I agree with Braden that it's a tool, not a crutch.

Als opinions probably hold a bit more weight than mine and Braden's put together, though. So, I'm making a stronger case for what I don't believe than for what I do believe. Why did I do that? That doesn't make any sense.

[Serpent]

Well, to clarify, you backed up a large part of my argument whether you meant to or not, which was great. (Perhaps you secretly love me too and this is your subconscious trying to let you know that. But again, we sail too close to Freud! ;) )

However, more to the point, Braden is infamous around here for his ability to debate the last banana off an enraged gorilla, and you just took it to him. That's why I fell in love more than anything!

And besides that, it was a passing, fatuous comment.

But I'll take Einstein's opinion over either of you two, just for the hell of it apart from his well documented intellect.

:)

[Braden]

eulerfan

"I just said it was a little hard to swallow that you used him to make that point."

I guess we have very different ideas as to the usage of metaphor. Perhaps you do think saying cyanide smells like almonds is absurd. Perhaps you find some reason why the example was inappropriate. Perhaps you didn't grasp it's relevance. Since you give no reasoning nor reply, I'm left only guessing.

I'll grant you that, presuming your assertions about Einstein are correct, the choice of example would be ironic; just like cyanide and almonds (or any of countless others). Ironic, but certainly no harder to swallow, which is the phrasing you've consistently used. Would it be ironic for me to point out the irony of using the metaphor 'hard to swallow' with cyanide and almonds, or would this belabor the point? That was a joke, albeit a very bad one. :D

"...frankly, I don't know what this means."

It was a clumsy shorthand for what I said in the first place the quote meant. I assumed it would be clear, and wouldn't have had such clumsy phrasing if I was introducing a new concept.

"My point went something like this..."

What you said specifically was "Faith is believing in something without logical proof, not believing in something you can't see", as a disagreement of the quote, or at least, as you have suggested, rogue's usage of it. My reply was only that that was inappropriate. If in fact you meant something entirely different, you'll have to excuse me for taking you for only what you say.

"if you think you have evidence that god exists, don't call it faith and make with the evidence. If not, call it faith and say, 'I don't have proof, I have faith.' Becasue I think most atheists would insist that their beliefs are supportable with logic and evidence. To call that faith is a bit disingenuous. That's what I think."

Sounds interesting. And entirely not what I disagreed with, nor even commented upon.

Regarding Einstein's quotes, you are confusing a certain kind of religious outlook with religious outlook in general. Religious outlook in general does not require a personal god (we can only guess the consistent usage of this phrase, which has a specific meaning beyond the phrase 'god', is non accidental), nor an excuse, based on punishment, for moral behavior.

Here, for example, are some other Einstein quotes: "It is not good when one's daily break is tied to God's special blessing.", "It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure.", "God doesn't play dice with the universe.", "God may be subtle, but He isn't plain mean.", "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish.", ""There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.", "What really interests me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the world.", "We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality.", "The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge.", "It is only to the individual that a soul is given.", "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.", "I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details."...

I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Not being [your conception of] Christian doesn't mean not being religious. The above, and literally hundreds of others (including those you supplied), clearly describe a sophisticated religious thinking in Einstein's mind.

"Religion is a crutch and, if we can't walk without it, we're a pretty sad lot."

It's a pity you considered the weaknesses of my argument longer than you considered it's strengths, or you may have discovered exactly the flaw in your thinking here. Einstein was capable of mathematical functioning with utter ease at a level far greater than most. So do we conclude he should not bother with math, has he outgrown it? Of course not. Because math is an endeavor, it's something to work upon, and something which works upon you. It's a process, not a position. From his genius for it, we must only conclude we are all better off for the time he devotes to it. This same argument is made for all the sciences, math, philosophy, all the humanities, but not religion. Why? Religion is only different in the prejudices of people uneducated on the topic. Religion is not a crutch exactly because it is process and not position. We, if we are so inclined, should devote ourselves to it, for the same reasons we, if so inclined, should devote ourselves to math, poetry, or any other human work.

"You'll see him say that over and over, in many different ways."

I've yet to see him say it even once, in any way. Show me.

His disbelief in a personal God? How many religions maintain this?

His remark about ethics? Even the bulk of contemporary Christian thinkers agree with this.

"I think he meant it rhetorically when he did that."

Yes, he could be rhetorical when he struggles, on countless recorded occassions, in classic religious languge, with classic religious problems. But, ask yourself, at what point would you have decided that his rhetorical nature stems more from you and less from him?

That you see him struggling as proof he is non-religious seems to me clear evidence that you fail to realize the point of my original argument, that to be religious is to struggle. Every religious person on this thread has said so, and it is only the atheists who claim religiousness to mean dogmatism. I'm pretty sure there's a clever word for that phenomenon. :)

P.S. Read your second post later. Obviously, like Serpent I confused, on occasion, your meaning for your interpretation of Einstein's meaning. I'm too lazy to rewrite everything; I'll just hope we know what we mean in these cases, and acknowledge the distinction you made.

[Serpent]

Eulerfan, I guess Braden's last post has kinda confirmed my point! ;)

Braden, I think you're interpretation of "personal god" is assuming a lot.

[ewallace]

Would it be possible for me to add Braden to my Ignore list only after 5:00 P.M. Central Standard Time? After looking at code all day the last thing my brain wants to do is to think more or look up words in a dictionary. :)

[rubthebuddha]

all in favor of letting ewallace take any negative emotions built up in the last couple months out on braden for that last post, say aye.

aye.

[Braden]

Oops... I thought it was funny. Maybe he's serious though! :eek:

[ewallace]

I am serious. And don't call me Shirley. :)

[eulerfan]

Braden,

If my assertions about Einstien are correct, using him in the metaphor would be ironic. But saying cyanide smells like almonds is not even similar to this situation. You used the man to support a case he disagreed with. It would be like if you used a metaphor about Ghandi to make a point about why we should go to war. The metaphor may work in a void but it will be hard to swallow.

"Sounds interesting. And entirely not what I disagreed with, nor even commented upon."

PLEASE tell me clearly what you meant. What line of questioning is absurd? That's what I was trying to tell you before. I don't think I do understand what you are saying. I swear I won't do what you did to me and throw your words back in your face in an attempt to discredit you. Just say, this is what my point is.......and make it again. I'll just listen to that. I'm not trying to win anything or come out the smartest person on the board. I want us to get somewhere here and I think moving forward is the way to do it.

You are right. I said that faith is beleiving in something without logical proof, not believing in something you can't see. I'm not absolutely certain that that is what rogue meant by that. I'm not going to insist that he did or maintain that he did. I will maintain that it seemed that way to me.

I clarified later by tlaking about the nature of 'proof' and saying, "I just find it disingenuous to say that you have faith in something because you've seen evidence that it exists."

If you are going to take me for what I say, please try to take it all together. That last post of mine was the third time I told you that I agreed with you about the nature of religion.

Eistein's quotes. He didn't just say that he didn't believe in a personal god. He said he couldn't imagine a will or goal outside the human sphere.

I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature.
-- Albert Einstein

The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion. Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning.
-- Albert Einstein

Albert Einstein's references to god are generally rhetorical. Generally, I think he means that god is the universe itself. It's a sort of pantheistic remark. You are right to say that the man was incredibly spiritual and I won't argue with you for calling that religious. That seems fair to me. I don't think the two are mutually inclusive. I do not consider myself the least bit religious but I do consider myself spiritual. But I really think I did before and continue to show you that he considered religion a crutch. If he has his own highly sophisticated religion, he still clearly considers other religions necessitated by weakness.

In this way I think I can grant you that he was religious and still say that he considered religion a crutch.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by Serpent
Well, to clarify, you backed up a large part of my argument whether you meant to or not, which was great. (Perhaps you secretly love me too and this is your subconscious trying to let you know that. But again, we sail too close to Freud! ;) )
:)

If I start dreaming that we get married, I'll let you know.;)

[fa_jing]

I like the Einstein quotes. I think the way that you would label him belies your own prejudices. This could lead to an argument about semantics - which seems to be 90% of most arguments. Allez-on!

[Serpent]

Originally posted by eulerfan


If I start dreaming that we get married, I'll let you know.;)

Right-o. Seems quite reasonable. :)

Although I had a dream last night and that monkey from ewallace's avatar (the one with the glasses on) featured in it very briefly. Bit of a cameo role really. So I hope that doesn't mean anything! :eek:

Back on topic, I'm going to get a case of beer and some chips and just kick back to watch this one pan out. I reckon Braden's got his hands full here.

Anyone want a brew?

[rubthebuddha]

sure, i'll take one. but beware, you know darn well braden's gonna write a novel. ;)

[Xebsball]

Man, check out Serpent and eulerfan, getting it ON! :D

(LOL Serpent i owed you this one from the got qi girls thread :D )

[Serpent]

LOL! Fair call, Xebsball, I did deserve that one. Here, have a beer. Now we're even. ;)

RTB, he writes a novel, I buy a case. Next case is on you.

*pops brew, sits back in comfy deck chair*

:cool:

[eulerfan]

Well, if you guys would QUIT egging him on.......

[Serpent]

Oh, bugger! I think she's rumbled us!

*moves deck chair back a bit to appear slightly less obvious*

[Xebsball]

I dunno,

Im just taking my cold beer and getting the hell outa here :cool:
Thanx, Serpent :D

[Serpent]

Chicken!

:)

[Xebsball]

What, if i stick around im gonna steal her from you... look at this seductive stare: ;)

[eulerfan]

Hey, I'm woman enough for the both of you.

Hell, a Brazilian on one arm and an Aussie on the other?

I'd be STYLIN'!!!!

:D

[Serpent]

*counts through loose change jar*

How much is an airfare to Texas!?

;)

[Xebsball]

I too wanna fly

I'm already putting up tactics to blackmail my parents for money :D

[Serpent]

She's my girl, Xebs. I don't wanna have to hurt you!

[rubthebuddha]

serpent -- airfare to texas is too **** much. trust me. i'm in washington state, and my girlfriend is in austin. i go broke each time i see her. :(

[eulerfan]

RTB, shush. I'm trying to get a fight started here.

[rubthebuddha]

well, you have two options:

either your hoping to take the winner, or you're just being a ********.

if you're being a ********, then we'll just have none of that.

and if you're hoping for a winner for your own exploits, that's not the best way to do it. both xebby and serpie have skills, and both will be damaged in an altercation. a fight will only leave you with damaged goods.

kinda like your purple nurple.

[TaoBoy]

Okay look gents - I didn't want to have to tell you this but eulerfan and I have already been talking about buttons - and you know what that means...





(If you know, ah, er, can you tell me?)

[rubthebuddha]

okay, that word was bûtthead.

[Shadow Dragon]

Ok, that's it.

NO more radio button turning on the young lady.

Everybody back to their respective corners.

[Xebsball]

**** :( i really thought i had gotten lucky this time...

[eulerfan]

rtb,

Damaged goods? There's nothing wrong with an injured man. Besides, I'm a woman so I'm like, all nurturing and cr@p. I could nurse him back to health.

[rubthebuddha]

fo sho.

and tune in tokyo has been taken offline.

and xebby, don't fret. all in due time.

and back to euler -- you still icing your sore nurple, or is it getting better?

[eulerfan]

it's right as rain, my boy!

[ewallace]

Hey eulerfan, where abouts are you from in this great state of ours?

[eulerfan]

I'm in Houston. I guess you could call me a Houston euler.

[TaoBoy]

You KFO girls get all the attention.

Even Serpent is making intelligent, rational statements. :D

[rubthebuddha]

it's all a ruse, taoboy.

[Serpent]

Yeah it is. Come on Xebs, let's go get a beer. She only wants us to fight over her.

*rubs hands gleefully, talking to self in classic movie supervillain style*

Heh heh! And while Xebs heads off to the pub, I'll fly into Houston and claim the damsel! The art of fighting without fighting!

[dezhen2001]

oh well at least this has taken the heat off mine :D:cool:

dawood

[rogue]

After reading this whole thread over again I believe we're all ADD. Anybody here know the meaning of focus?:D

[Serpent]

What's ADD?

All Donkey Donged?

All Dead Dogs?

Alive Deadhead Dudes?

[rogue]

It stands for Attention Deficit Disorder. It's something the drug companies made up so they could sell kids ridilin which is like cocain for kids. For some reason it only happens to American kids, especially boys.

Here's a link to the supposed signs (http://www.post-trauma.com/Quiz.html)

[Serpent]

Oh right! Actually, I've heard of that. I think the drug is actually called Ritalin.

In the great Australian tradition of following America down the toilet, kids here are being diagnosed with it too. Funny how it always seems to affect kids from f*cked up families the most.....

Hmmmm....

:rolleyes:

[Serpent]

Hey Rogue, this is a list of signs form that link. I think they got it mixed up with "Top Signs That You've Smoked One Joint Too Many Tonight"!

Often fidgets or squirms in seat.
Has difficulty remaining in seat.
Is easily distracted.
Has difficulty awaiting turn in groups.
Often blurts out answers to questions.
Has difficulty following instructions.
Has difficulty sustaining attention to tasks.
Often shifts from one uncompleted activity to another.
Has difficulty playing quietly.
Often talks excessively.
Often interrupts or intrudes on others.
Often does not seem to listen.
Often loses things necessary for tasks.
Often engages in physically dangerous activities without considering consequences.
Forgetful.
Present but not there.
Leaves articles around without picking up before starting new task.
Gets lost.


:D

[TaoBoy]

lol @ Serpent. :D

Why shouldn't the kids get Ritalin (sp?), the adults have Prozac and Valium!! :D

[Serpent]

Why don't we cut out the middle man and just shoot the mothers in the head before they get a chance to reproduce?

Or is that a little harsh?

[eulerfan]

No, that is not a little harsh. In the words of Bill Hicks, "Can we quit with the rutting for a minute until we figure out this food/air deal?"

[rogue]

Often fidgets or squirms in seat.
Has difficulty remaining in seat.
Is easily distracted.
Has difficulty awaiting turn in groups.
Often blurts out answers to questions.
Has difficulty following instructions.
Has difficulty sustaining attention to tasks.
Often shifts from one uncompleted activity to another.
Has difficulty playing quietly.
Often talks excessively.
Often interrupts or intrudes on others.
Often does not seem to listen.
Often loses things necessary for tasks.
Often engages in physically dangerous activities without considering consequences.
Forgetful.
Present but not there.
Leaves articles around without picking up before starting new task.
Gets lost.

I know another name for ADD, it's called being a little boy.

"Why don't we cut out the middle man and just shoot the mothers in the head before they get a chance to reproduce?"

I support retro-active abortion. I've seen very few teenagers that can live on their own and are not yet a viable life. But what would you call your solution serpant pre-abortion?





Note: I don't really support the abortion of teenagers except in the most dire of circumstances. Such as when one tries to touch my daughter, wrecks my car, gets my order wrong at Wendy's or calls my house 3 times at 2 in the morning asking for his friend Chuck!:p

[Serpent]

What would I call it?

Common sense.

[tnwingtsun]

Good for you,been there done that,talk later..............

[dezhen2001]

rogue: LOL! at the moment i feel like one of those unlucky teenagers and it sux :(:mad:

it does sound awfully like just being a kid - thats what we all did - we were all indestructible and crazy once lol

this thread has gone from subject to subject lol

dawood

[Serpent]

I'm still indestructible and crazy!

[dezhen2001]

i am sometimes but not right now :p
im huuungry and i have to start fasting (ramadan) in 10mins :(

dawood

[Serpent]

Don't worry, mate. It'll be dark soon.

Make sure you don't look at any women with the sex look! ;)

[dezhen2001]

its 5.30am and i have to wait till 4.30pm :eek: lol
hey, my eyes are glued to the floor more for the sake of not getting an ass kicking from my other 1/2 (so to speak) than anything else :D

dawood

[rubthebuddha]

it's an interesting thing when your girl will boot your ass for looking at her. most women like that behavior in their boys. it implies that their boys don't find them hideous and gainly.

regardless, good luck this month. and IM me on aim if you get cravings. i'll talk you down.

[straight blast]

And Jesus doesn't love me. He's a long dead political activist that has been mythically blown out of all proportion (at best!). How could he love me? As for you, way too arrogant for my liking. Why do you think I need your love?

Serpent...:D :D :D

Umm...sorry to deflate your ideas of self-importance but...the love comment wasn't directed solely at you. But the offer still stands! I don't hold your beliefs against you...if you refuse to be loved for who you are then that's your deal.

You may not need my love...I just choose to give it.

My opinion of you comes from reading many of your posts, especially the ones where you were arguing with Abel. I just so happen to agree with a lot of what you said.

But, whatever works for you...;)

[dezhen2001]

RTB: its interesting coz shes in australia :D But im sure things will get saved up till i can see her then WHAM!!! gonna really feel it :eek: lol why not ask her urself...? go to the li lian jie thread and im sure u will find her lurking around ;)

thx for the offer but dont need talking down - just food :D
also dont have aim only icq, msn and yahoo... pm me if u want details :)

dawood

[ewallace]

I was once diagnosed with Attention Defiman these peanuts are good.

[FatherDog]

Attention, parents: ADD is an abbreviation for "Your children are stupid and undisciplined, and could use a belt 'round the ear."

And Ritalin's withdrawal symptoms have been rated on par with heroin. Yikes.

Also, ttt for a mention of Bill Hicks :D

[eulerfan]

If you like Bill Hicks, keep an eye out for when the comedian Doug Stanhope comes to your area. Definitely check him out.

[guohuen]

I could kiss you FatherDog!:eek: :D

[ewallace]

Yeah really. It's funny how when you were little the sound of your father's belt being unbuckled could grab your attention for hours an hours.

[eulerfan]

Heh, I'm trying to imagine if I had a son and he was all calm and focused. I think that would freak me out.

[rubthebuddha]

just bite the rope and thing of merry old england, and it'll be over soon.

[Serpent]

Is that what you say to your woman, RTB?

[rubthebuddha]

seven -- not quite. besides, she's irish anyway.

but that was a line told to women to think of on their wedding night. a woman's pleasures weren't thought of that much a few hundred years back, so women needed something useful to think about during the act. since there wasn't, they thought of the next best thing -- merry old england.

;)

[dezhen2001]

NOTHING pleasurable about England... but if it was Scotland... ;)

dawood

[Serpent]

Hey RTB. You call me Seven again and I'm gonna hafta kick your ass! You think I look likea baboon or something?!

;) :D

[dezhen2001]

:D

dawood

[rubthebuddha]

sorry seve ... i mean, serpent. my bad.

now about that baboonness ...

;)

[Serpent]

Well, OK. Not quite so baboonish as Seven*, at least.

:)

[rubthebuddha]

ah yes. not quite as much baboonicity. sure, your butt is bald and red, but that's only from the friction burns. :eek:







:D

[Serpent]

Sliding down the stairs on your but is good fun. What's wrong with that?! ;)

Hmmm, degrees of baboonicity. A new study in anatomical tendencies. Are you more baboon, chimp, gorilla, urang utan, marmoset?

[rubthebuddha]

depends. which one has big calves?

[Serpent]

Well, it wasn't on the list, but I would imagine that would be big cows. ;)

[rubthebuddha]

fair enough.

i find this interesting. we started out with ewallace's personal note, and somewhere the thread got jacked, then jacked again, then jacked some more, then eventually seve... serpent and i stole it, and now we're on the topic of cows.

i wonder how many other long threads eventually migrate to the topic of bovines. surely not enough of them.

[Serpent]

Perhaps if we continue with this thread for long enough we'll eventually reduce it back to the first single celled ameoba and unlock the secrets of the universe?

Worth a try.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
depends...

This would officially make this the third ultra-long, hijacked thread that made reference to adult undergarments.

[Serpent]

If we keep this thread alive we'll end up with a reference to everything. It will become the great KFO encyclopeadia!

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by eulerfan


This would officially make this the third ultra-long, hijacked thread that made reference to adult undergarments.

all threads reference adult undergarments. you just have to look hard enough for the connection.



serpent -- we'll kick britannica's dead ass.

[Serpent]

D@mn straight!