Knife to the back

[dnc101]

I was working out with someTKDistas last night, and they were trying to work on a self defense for someone holding a knife to your back with his right hand. The technique was to spin on the left foot so you are positioned inside, your right foot steping arround so that it is just in front of his right foot. Adduct your left forearm so that his right wrist is pinned in the fold of your elbow. Your right hand cranes over the back of his right arm just above the tricep. You then step back with your right foot and roll him into an armbar. The general concensus was that this technique was unreliable at best- I thought it just plain sucked. So we worked out some of our own. I won't go into all the details of the moves we used, but I do want to list some of the principles I use when defending against a knife from behind- then see if some of you can add to or comment on them.

1. First priority is to divert/deflect the weapon.

2. Move to angle my body so I'm in a strong position to deal with the weapon and the opponent.

3. Use the back of the arm to deflect- less nerve and tendon dammage if you do get cut.

4. If you were wrong about which hand held the knife, your initial move should still leave you in a strong position and with viable options.

5. Sieze the hand that holds the knife. Get the hand- if you only grab the wrist you can still get cut.

6. Quickly control both the knife and the opponent.

7. Viciously attack the opponent- destroy the man, you've destroyed the weapon.

8. Disarm as soon as possible.

9. Move/stay in close- he's already closed the gap; don't let him move back where you have to bridge the gap against a weapon and regain control.

10. If possible, move outside the knife arm. This neutralizes his left and allows you to better establish control.

11. If you have to move inside, step back into him- don't swing your foot arround in an arc. Steping around takes too much time and has no force. Steping back allows you to...

12. Penetrate and dominate. Move straight back into him. Attack, then check his base. Get and keep him off ballance. Occupy his space, take his spirit.

13. When/if you do have to face your opponent while he still controlls the knife, keep your body at an angle to him to minimize your target area.

14. Most disarming techniques end with the opponent on the ground. Preferably, he should end up on his side. This puts you on top controlling the upper arm, and his other three natural weapons neutralized. On his stomache or back he can still move, may be able to swithc the weapon to his other hand, or you end up grappling with a knife in the mix. (I'm going to defer to the grapplers on this. Maybe some of you mat maniacs could give some pointers if we should find ourselves in this situation.)

15. This all assumes, of course, that you can't just run away and call the police.

So there you have it. Let's here some of the principles, rules, methods or techniques that you use for rear knife attacks. I'd especially like to hear how you internalists, WCers, and grapplers deal with this type situation.

[Former castleva]

How about this kind of an approach?

1.First check out which arm is holding the knife.

2.Pivot on your foot (whatever it is in that point) and deflect/parry knife arm away from your body with side or back of your forearm,turning it towards his "inside".
3.Grab and possibly lock knifehand,simultaneously and immediately,strike his vital point with your free hand (if done correctly,you will now be in a position relatively hard for your opponent to use his hands and feet effectively in a short time) this could include throwing an elbow strike to temple,jaw etc.
To drop him for good.

[dnc101]

That's similar to the first technique we came up with.

One of them asked if going to the outside would be better. Defender (D) pointed to right hip pocket and raised arms and looked over right shoulder, saying "It's in that pocket." The knife was in atttackers (A) right hand, so D continued the turn, steping around and back with left foot so that D was steping into A outside the knife arm, D's anterior right forearm deflecting A's weapon arm. As D did this, D's left arm came down across D's chest and onto the top of A's right arm checking it down and sandwiching it between D's arms. (This was a hidden move- he never saw it coming until my arm already had his checked.) As the turn completed, D's right moved up naturally and A's right hand was guided into D's right for the grab. Now, D continues to move into A by steping his left foot behind A and with his right hand on A's wrist and his left holding A's knife hand, D lifts the weapon hand and pushes it diagonally acfross A's chest. D releases the left hold on A's wrist as the right maintains the hold on the hand and continues to move it above A's right shoulder. Simultaneously step through with your right foot into a transitional twist stance, then pivot ccw. D's right leg trips A and D guides A down his right leg onto A's left side. A is pretty much helpless at this point. D simply exchanges grabing hands then works A over with his right untill A drops the knife.

Critical points:
*The initial turn and grab- it was pretty natural and worked well for everyone. If A doesn't move, you have a stationary target. If he stabs forward, he moves right into your technique. Even if A tried to withdraw the knife, since you are moving that way nay how just follow and complete the move.
*After the grab, A will probably resist. Since D has position and leverage at this point, no matter what A did he ended up helping D complete the move. If he pulls up or back, that's where you want him to go any how, so just help him out. If he tries to go forward and down, just rotate your hips so that your left knee buckleshis right knee and your shoulders press into his right upper arm/shoulder. This will destroy his ballance, causing him to want to pull back (see previous note).
*The step through to a twist must be very close so that when you pivot to drop A he is guided down your leg onto his shoulder. This points all his natural weapons away from you and traps the knife under and behind him. If you let him twist, even a little bit, he has the ability to move and thus he has options. You still have the superior position, but even a small opportunity is a chance you will get hurt.
*If A's left hand ends up out/above his head when he comes down, watch that he doesn't switch the knife.
*This sequence has to flow, and you have to keep positive forward pressure once you start moving into him.

Trust me, it was a lot easier to do than to describe it. Now you know why I didn't write out all the moves we tried. Any others?

[yenhoi]

Invest in loss. You will get cut if you try to get out of this situation.

Most likely, he has you at the tip of his knife, GIVING him your balance because you are naturally straining to stay away from the tip and not be cut. If he is behind you then he has also grabbed you, so when you goto move (wheter it be to grab/deflect his knife hand/arm/shoulder or simple to spin and turn) he will feel it and will react, probably by cutting you, or stealing what is left of your balance.

Possibly one of the worst positions you can be in.

1) you need to break contact and get your balance and take the game away from the knifer.

2) now your not in such a bad position, try and get away, or this becomes a 1 sided knife fight.

I have not real suggestions for disarm, the gist of my post is ' to get out of that scenario.'

[Thor317]

If you are there with a fat, out of shape person just run. Other wise use your skills.

[Budokan]

Urinate on yourself like a frightened puppy. That usually works for me.

[Former castleva]

Budokan etc.,
Yeah.You can also breakfall on your back with your legs at sides,and cover your stomach with your tail...
Besides what´s already done.
This is a very strong defense,unless you are not facing a dominating dog.
:)

BTW,I remember reading this real life self-defense story of a woman walking in a park who was followed by an offender from the rear.
When he approached her,she jumped down the ground on four limbs and started barking like a dog etc.
Her attacker said something like "You´re grazy!!" and got away quickly.

:D

[jointlock]

DNC101,
I agree that the initial technique you mentioned is unreliable. A guy I train with mentioned that if you get a knife-hand or gun-hand in the fold of your elbow, it would be pretty easy for the opponent to slip out of it and cut you, or shoot you.
In a situation where someone has a knife or gun to your back and they have not grabbed you, but rather are extending one hand (the weapon hand) toward your back, my friend recommeneded what "Former castleva" said. It takes you to the inside where you have swung around with your hand still in the air, and check the weapon hand for just a moment as you slide your inner wrist toward his weapon hand then grab it. Then with your opposite arm you elbow him in the neck, jaw, or whatever is available. Also from there it would be easy to execute a throw.
This is simple:

1. You are already in position, so just step behind his right foot with your right foot (or left foot with left foot, depending on which side you're on) allowing about 16 inches or more space between the back of your foot and the back of his. Then sweep back with your foot striking his heel with yours with enough force to sweep his leg forward.

2. As you do that, simultaneously grab him by the throat and pivot your body at the waist, pushing him backwards by the throat, while still holding his weapon hand with your other hand. He will fall back like a sack of potatoes while you still have control of his weapon hand.

3. Follow him to the ground kneeling on his chest with the same leg you used to sweep his, and place your other foot on the weapon hand pinning it. Stand up (with other foot on his chest) and stand (or stomp) his hand with your foot until lets go of the weapon.

4. If you want you can finish it with a kick to his jaw.

[jointlock]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Most likely, he has you at the tip of his knife, GIVING him your balance because you are naturally straining to stay away from the tip and not be cut. If he is behind you then he has also grabbed you, so when you goto move (wheter it be to grab/deflect his knife hand/arm/shoulder or simple to spin and turn) he will feel it and will react, probably by cutting you, or stealing what is left of your balance.

Possibly one of the worst positions you can be in.

1) you need to break contact and get your balance and take the game away from the knifer.

2) now your not in such a bad position, try and get away, or this becomes a 1 sided knife fight.[/QUOTE]

Good post. I agree, if the opponent grabs you from behind, possibly with arm around neck, etc. and is up close to you with weapon in back, if the weapon is a knife it's best to get out of that situation and try attacking from a different angle. If the weapon is a gun you can still execute a similar technique to the one "Former castleva" mentioned. It must be done immediately as soon as you feel the weapon in your back, so as not to give the opponent a chance to think or to feel like he has procured any platform of control whatsoever. In this way you can still control the weapon hand and turn sideways. Elbow opponent in stomach or side of of rib cage, he should let go or your neck. Then you are in a position to execute the same technique "Former Castleva" mentioned, followed by the finish-off I added to it:
Originally posted by Former castleva
Here it is again How about this kind of an approach?

1.First check out which arm is holding the knife.

2.Pivot on your foot (whatever it is in that point) and deflect/parry knife arm away from your body with side or back of your forearm,turning it towards his "inside".

3.Grab and possibly lock knifehand,simultaneously and immediately,strike his vital point with your free hand (if done correctly,you will now be in a position relatively hard for your opponent to use his hands and feet effectively in a short time) this could include throwing an elbow strike to temple,jaw etc.
To drop him for good.[/QUOTE]

And here is a possible follow-up:
Originally posted by jointlock
This is simple:

1. You are already in position, so just step behind his right foot with your right foot (or left foot with left foot, depending on which side you're on) allowing about 16 inches or more space between the back of your foot and the back of his. Then sweep back with your foot striking his heel with yours with enough force to sweep his leg forward.

2. As you do that, simultaneously grab him by the throat and pivot your body at the waist, pushing him backwards by the throat, while still holding his weapon hand with your other hand. He will fall back like a sack of potatoes while you still have control of his weapon hand.

3. Follow him to the ground kneeling on his chest with the same leg you used to sweep his, and place your other foot on the weapon hand pinning it. Stand up (with other foot on his chest) and stand (or stomp) his hand with your foot until lets go of the weapon.

4. If you want you can finish it with a kick to his jaw.[/QUOTE]

[dnc101]

Yenhoi,

True, if he grabs you you are in a worse position. Odds are extremely good that you will get cut if you resist. The grab indicates that he is trying to control you, so I guess your real question at this point is what he wants- abduction, rape, robery, dominance? A likely scenario is that, whatever his motive, he wants to remove you to a secluded spot to carry out his plan. Sooner or later he will have to let go of the grab to accomplish anything. At what point do you want to resist? Depending on how he grabed me/how much control he has, I might opt to risk the cut before he gets me isolated. Tough call.

If it is just a shoulder grab, I think I migt attack the grab while moving for position and either escaping or moving in to attack. That might be worth playing around with a little.

If his arm is around your neck and the knife at your back, you are in trouble. As you said, he has your ballance, as well as a deadly hold and a weapon. Unless you think he's going to kill you any way, it may be best to wait until he lets go or makes a mistake.

[Former castleva]

Yeah,I agree with this grab issue.
Of course I could say "just don´t get grabbed" which would be a bit naiive but generally speaking if you are surprised from the rear you already had your awareness level down too much,a horrible position it is.
I think the worst case scenario would involve opponent grabbing one by the face possibly closing eyes and mouth,twisting head backwards and slashing across the neck.
Military&probably your average assasin or even street punk might come up with this kind of an attack which is nearly impossible to defend against.
I sound pretty positive...

It´s a bit like forearm choke from the rear,can be defeated without too much trouble on it´s own but with additional help from distraction or grab it becomes considerably tough.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by jointlock
In a situation where someone has a knife or gun to your back and they have not grabbed you, but rather are extending one hand (the weapon hand) toward your back, my friend recommeneded ... to the inside where you have swung around with your hand still in the air, and check the weapon hand for just a moment as you slide your inner wrist toward his weapon hand then grab it.

Jointlock,

You had some good points in your post, but the momentary check and exposing your inner wrist to a possible withdrawing slice bothers me. I want to establish control of the weapon, not just a momentary check. I also want to minimize the risk of serious dammage while establishing that control. The inner/anterior wrist and forearm have a lot of unprotected nerves, tendons and arteries. When at all possible, I prefer to deflect the weapon hand with the back/posterior side of my forearm so that those vital areas are protected.

The first phase of the techniqe I described earlier still works well going to the inside:

* "A" has a knife in his right hand, held to "D's" back.

*D steps back with his left foot as he turns inside, D's left posterior forearm deflects the knife hand. D's right hand reaches across D's body to grab the knife hand.
*This is all one move, done quickly.
*The knife hand is traped and guided into A's right hand grab.

*Without loss of momentum, continue to move into A as D's right foot steps forward. D shoulder jams A to disrupt his ballance. D's left hand simultaneously comes up for a finger thrust to A's eyes. D's right hand continues to control the weapon hand.
*D keeps his right arm bent, close and strong.
* Keep A's right arm extended and weak.

*From this point, you have several options, depending on A's foot position, what A is trying to do with his left hand, and of course your personal style and preferences. You are in a strong position and can follow up with strikes, kicks to his base, takedowns or joint locks.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by Budokan
Urinate on yourself like a frightened puppy. That usually works for me.

Interesting approach. I once had a friend that recomended this same technique to defend against being called for jury duty- stand before the judge, raise your right hand, and wet yourself. I like techniques with numerous applications :) .

[dnc101]

Originally posted by Former castleva
I think the worst case scenario would involve opponent grabbing one by the face possibly closing eyes and mouth,twisting head backwards and slashing across the neck.


True. At this point I suppose the best you can hope to do is to ruin his suit by bleeding profusely:eek: .

[jointlock]

Originally posted by dnc101
Jointlock,

You had some good points in your post, but the momentary check and exposing your inner wrist to a possible withdrawing slice bothers me.
Good point, I don't know why I said "inner wrist" except I was trying to recall in my mind how the technique went. I suppose it would be possible to go from an outer/posterior check to a hand grab without exposing the wrist. In fact that's probably how the technique went.

The thing I like about the technique is that if you properly grab the weapon hand you can immediately swing around with your opposite arm and elbow the attacker in the jaw/neck so that there is an instant blow to stun the attacker while you execute a follow up technique. However it seems that if you don't get it just right in the beginning, there's a chance the wrist could be exposed to the knife. Wheras your technique leaves room for error, which is always better for these types of situations. I like the sound of your technique and I think I'll give it a try, to see what I think of it.

Originally posted by dnc101
I want to establish control of the weapon, not just a momentary check.I agree with you. In the technique I described, the check AND grabbing the weapon hand are actually one movement.

Originally posted by dnc101
*Without loss of momentum, continue to move into A as D's right foot steps forward. D shoulder jams A to disrupt his ballance. D's left hand simultaneously comes up for a finger thrust to A's eyes. D's right hand continues to control the weapon hand.
*D keeps his right arm bent, close and strong.
* Keep A's right arm extended and weak.

*From this point, you have several options, depending on A's foot position, what A is trying to do with his left hand, and of course your personal style and preferences. You are in a strong position and can follow up with strikes, kicks to his base, takedowns or joint locks.
I would have to try this out but I'm thinking at this point, if you have A's right [weapon] hand in your right hand holding it close, wouldn't it be possible to step behind "A"'s right foot with your left foot and sweep it forward, and at the same time, elbow "A" in the jaw or under the jaw, or otherwise push "A" backward with your left arm? If so, you could again stand on A's weapon wrist with your right foot, and kick him in the temple or jaw with your left foot.

[Shisio]

If your attacker isn't holding you why not just bolt? Or am I to assume that this situation is occuring in closed quarters?

[yenhoi]

dnc101 and others:

on "..A likely scenario is that, whatever his motive, he wants to remove you to a secluded spot to carry out his plan. Sooner or later he will have to let go of the grab to accomplish anything. At what point do you want to resist? Depending on how he grabed me/how much control he has, I might opt to risk the cut before he gets me isolated. Tough call.

If it is just a shoulder grab, I think I migt attack the grab while moving for position and either escaping or moving in to attack. That might be worth playing around with a little.

If his arm is around your neck and the knife at your back, you are in trouble. As you said, he has your ballance, as well as a deadly hold and a weapon. Unless you think he's going to kill you any way, it may be best to wait until he lets go or makes a mistake."


former castleva mentions reacting instantly, that is a skillful and good idea -- to the knife and the grab, either or could also be being used or present to gain reaction, to either the grab or the knife - also something we cant really fathom, because it depends on who is trying to grab you and threaten you with a knife...

dnc101 goes to the root, which more impacts this scenario since we are really speaking about on the street self-defense: the guy is grabbing you and threatening you with a knife from behind, he is not trying to kill you (yet?!?). This aspect alone could give you the time you need to take in the situation, figure out what to do, and then execute against your attacker. If you and him have to move - go somewhere, whatnot, then there is a whole new set of things for you to work with to forge your escape - once the move is on he most likely** must give you most of your balance, allowing that he maintains his hold (which is really what you must defeat) he can still monitior you, but you can still monitor him.

**it is very possible to move someone who has no balance. Pain compliance is one, pure strength is another, Im sure there are other just as obvious ways - however, moving someone without balance might not be so easy if you dont want other people around you noticing you doing this, or your knife....

So not only do you get some of your balance back, both yours and his are now moving, shifting, slopping around, and you have some new windows to defeat your mans hold (or use it against him - read: depending on the hold, throw), defeat your mans knife, and possible even defeat your man. This is something we can maybe play around with, dnc101, concerning your attacking the grab.

Someone has already introduced the absolute worst case - your attacked from behind, grabbed, your balance stolen, your senses somehow otherwise attacked (hand over eyes, slap to ears, blow kidneys...), head twisted, even possibly a choke applied, and worst of all, a very sharp knife pressed through your clothing far enough you can feel the cold (or warmth) of the blade on your skin, just about the right positioning to be shoved into your kidneys, lungs, or bladder...... If this man knows to do this much, and has the will to kill you if you resist, then you will die.

There is also the possibility that he doesnt want to move you somewhere, he only wants to keep you where you are for the time being, alive, seemingly.

[dnc101]

Shisio, see #15 in my original post.

Jointlock, like I said, you have a lot of options inside. The bad thing about being inside is you have to deal with his other hand. I don't worry too much about a punch since I'm taking his ballance. But if he grabs me he is working on my ballance and it gives him leverage to do something with the knife hand. If I screw it up and end up inside the technique still works. But I definately prefer outside.

Yenhoi, good points.

One of the guys I was working on this with is going to use it as one of his 5 self defense techniques for his black belt test.

[jointlock]

Originally posted by dnc101
Jointlock, like I said, you have a lot of options inside. The bad thing about being inside is you have to deal with his other hand.
Good point, I also prefer to operate on the outside for the same reason.

[Shisio]

I always liked the idea of attacking your knifer in mid sentence- "You can ha-" then spinning around, trapping the knife and hitting from the outside (if your lucky and don't mess up). Then pummeling the crap outgha him while disarming or controlling the blade.