plum blossom?

[bglenn]

Most Ving Tsun Kuen use the plum blossom(mui fa) as there emblem or crest. The question is why that particular symbol.I have heard various reasons why. I am posing that question to anyone who has any insight.

[yuanfen]

It is a common wing chun symbol. Several other arts use it also.
The plum blossom is a flower for all seasons- it blooms in tough terrain and even in cold weather. Ng Mui the assumed name of the legendary founder also means plum blossom. It is also Taiwan's national flower...the PRC missed out.
The five petaled flower cuts accross many symbols...poles, elements, footwork and styles. Lots of lineages including mine use the symbol. Red flower or red border of the flower or red
leetering is a frequent part of the symbol. Red is often found in
Chinese symbols and there are esoteric meanings to some also.

[John D]

My Hong Hong friend, Biuck Yip, a student under Choi Shun Tin back in the 60's recalls when Moy Yat first opened his school in Hong Kong, everybody asked him about the Plum Flower used on his sign. Moy Yat was the first used the Plum Blossom among the first group of WC teachers from YM. I do not believe that the plum flower is used in other WC lineages.

The question is the "Mui" Chinese character....is it Mui for "Plum" (Ng Mui=five plum) or "Mui" for pieces (Ng Mui=five peices)?????? Look carefully at the Chinese character........ I believe the Nun's Buddhist name is FIVE PIECES.

[Mr. Bao]

The Blossom has five petals. Wing chun has five palms strikes which Ng Moy is credited. Please don't get so mystical about the symbol. Moy Yat using the blossom sign is nice, but what does it matter. I am sure he didn't up with the ideas himself.

[yuanfen]

John D- Ho Kam Ming started teaching in Macao in the late fifties...
the plum blossom symbol is very much part of the lineage that flows from him. Details of coloration or drawing can vary bit the plum blossom
appears in many parts of wing chun-even early on in plum blossom footwork

Mr. Bao- there are more than 5 palms in wing chun- but perspectives can vary in different families..

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by John D
My Hong Hong friend, Biuck Yip, a student under Choi Shun Tin back in the 60's recalls when Moy Yat first opened his school in Hong Kong, everybody asked him about the Plum Flower used on his sign. Moy Yat was the first used the Plum Blossom among the first group of WC teachers from YM. I do not believe that the plum flower is used in other WC lineages.

The question is the "Mui" Chinese character....is it Mui for "Plum" (Ng Mui=five plum) or "Mui" for pieces (Ng Mui=five peices)?????? Look carefully at the Chinese character........ I believe the Nun's Buddhist name is FIVE PIECES.


I think the Plum Blossom symbol is invented by YM lineage's people.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Mr. Bao
The Blossom has five petals. Wing chun has five palms strikes which Ng Moy is credited


Don't think so. This is Foo Hui (madarin)

[yuanfen]

I think the Plum Blossom symbol is invented by YM lineage's people.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik-
There are lots of unique name giving in the Ip Man line...
61/2 points name for the kwan, the bot jam do name for the knives-IMO
joy

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by yuanfen
I think the Plum Blossom symbol is invented by YM lineage's people.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik-
There are lots of unique name giving in the Ip Man line...
61/2 points name for the kwan, the bot jam do name for the knives-IMO
joy

Joy,


Great to know that. Thanks.

Hendrik

[dfl]

The plum blossom is used mainly by the YM branch because it's the main supporter of the Ng Mui-Yim Wing Chun legend (it's even in YM's own write up of WC history).
While it's true in some stories the "mui" in Ng Mui means "pieces", the 2 words were quite often used interchangeably, especially in old texts. It is also not beyond the Chinese to have a little language fun with the puns.
While it's true the plum blossom is traditionally the Chinese national flower, I think it has little relevance in this particular instance.
As for Moy Yat using it for his own school, the answer is obvious: it's his family name. (Tom Kagan, where are you?)

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by dfl
[As for Moy Yat using it for his own school, the answer is obvious: it's his family name. (Tom Kagan, where are you?)

Right here. I don't feel a need to give obvious answers publicly because the person receiving it usually expresses an embarrasing feeling akin to Homer Simpson's "DOH!"

However, since I now feel compelled to up my post count, I might as well not let it go to waste.

John D,

Side stepping your amusing 1st paragraph, I'll bite on the 2nd: "Five pieces" of what? ;)

yuanfen,

I mean no offence to contradict you. But, any plum tree which blooms in the "tough terrain and even in cold weather" is either a hybrid or grafted onto hardy rootstock. A true plum tree requires careful tending by a gardener to bloom in bad soil and needs to be brought indoors for it to bloom in colder climates. And though a good gardener can "force" a bloom in other seasons, the plum flower naturally only blooms around the time of the vernal equinox, frequently while there is still frost.

"Plum blossum" is a way to refer to woman with five maids. I'll leave this part of the metaphor as an exercise for the reader. Enjoy the fruit. :)

[yuanfen]

The plum flower symbol is quite extensively used. Yip Man's usage is related to Ng Mui- independent of Moy yat's usage.
The plum flower as a symbol of strength through adversity is quite well known and is deeply imbedded in some Buddhist as well as Taoist circles- the latter linked to the symbol of 5 elements and five petals. The former because of its hardiness. There are differnt varieities of plums... some hardier than others. Miniataure ones requiring great care. Some hardy ones can bloom in winter without leaves. In Plum Blossom mountain near Ming tombs some
plums require careful gardening... but there are 10,000 trees there many basically on their own.
Some of Thich Nhat Hanh's buddhist students use the plum blossom symbol, Taiwan's national flower became the plum blossom- symbol survving in adversity. Apart from Yip Man many other styles claim symbolic connections to Ng Mui.
Also, there is the Mei Hua -plum blossom kung fu style, the Wu Mei folks
also claim that they have the original Ng Mui style. Praying Mantis uses the plum symbol at times. Doc Fai Wong of califo uses it.
Its hardiness causes some people to regard the plum blossom asa friend of winter and a precursor of spring. Again, together with the Lotus, the plum blossom flower symbol is used by some Buddhists in several different countries. The symbol is extensive.

[Tom Kagan]

Sorry, I wasn't quite clear before. I think I understand where we misconnected.

Yes, the plum tree is hardy. However, its bloom and fruit, don't really share this trait. And, while many varieties of plum trees (and some other plants) will bloom while the tree itself has yet to sprout leaves, that's just the nature of the plum tree. Such a trait doesn't have much correlation to a level of hardiness for a given plant, bloom, and/or fruit.

If a plum tree blooms while the weather is still cold, the weather must warm up soon or the flower and subsequent fruit will be lost. The plum flower doesn't share the same traits of some other winter flowering plants whose bloom can take cold and snow without withering (e.g. winter crocus varieties) .

I've never seen the "ten thousand trees on plum flower mountain" (interestingly, an ancient metaphor in some parts of southern China refering to what I'd call a "red-light district"). However, I'll hazzard a guess and say the growing conditions there are probably pretty good for plum trees to flower. :)

The use and spread of the plum flower's symbolism I've left largely unexplored in my previous post - I'm just talking horticulture. Symbolism's relation to reality is a tricky subject I tend to stay away from. I suppose a dragon might have a better answer on the subject :)

[Vyvial]

Here's another one I heard from Moy Sigung.

Ving Tsun was one the first Kung Fu to be based on the human body and how it worked... Others were bases on animal, bug, mystical creatures, etc.

The Plum Blossom is in the shape of a man. A head two arms and two legs.

My idea of the Plum Blossom from growing up in the Richmond school is that the bruises I got on my chest from Chi Sao with my sihings and Sifu always looked like big purple plum blossoms (The punch's knuckles make the points)

just a few different thoughts

[yuanfen]

Vyvial- goodluck with your Austin school. I am glad that you are keeping up your sigung's legacy after he is gone.
Regarding the plum blossom being the figure of a man:
The analogy that I understand well is a little different but you touched on it in describing your bruises...thats where the plum blossom in wc anatomy lives- around the heart!

[Vyvial]

Thanks, yuanfen, if we teach pure VT from the heart and don't worry about what the other martial arts in Austin are doing then I think we'll be ok.

Honestly, I've never heard the analogy that the Plum Blossom lives around the heart. But as you could probably guess, I like it.