San Shou=BAd Reffing?

[jimmy23]

I went to see my first San Shou event this weekend called Art of War . There were some pretty good fighters there, some very close fights, and CungLe made an appearence and did a little demo. Overall, I had fun, but...
The reffing was atrocious. ONe ref was an older caucasian guy with a kung fu beard who didnt seem to know the first thing about how to protect the fighters. In the very first match one fighterkicked another square in the cup , it was unintentional but very obvious. THE ref not only didnt see what everyonein the stands did, he asked the judges at ringside if they ahd seen afoul, and only did that because a few people in the crowd were very vocal about calling him out on missing such an obvious foul.

When he called for breaks, he wasnt loud at all, and didnt get in between the fighters to pull them apart. Fighters would be falling throuhg the ropes and he would be meekly saying "break". Ive been to many full contact and MMA matches, and this was the second sorst job by a ref that Ive ever seen.

The second ref was a little better, but there were some very questionable calls made by him also. During John Dixsons fight, they called a throw for Dixsons opponant ( a big fella with very fast hands, scary dude) when dixosns knee never went down , and he was always incontrol of his balance.

OVerall, a good event, San Shou is exciting to watch and the fighters were all in shape and skilled. BUt, thew organizers of this event should appoint refs on ring experience , not on kung fu rank, becuase the fighters, and the fans, deserve better than what we saw Saturday night.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Jimmy,

while you certainly are entitled to an opinion, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents.

From your description, I'll make the assumption that the referee was Mike Barry.
BUt, thew organizers of this event should appoint refs on ring experience , not on kung fu rank,

Mike has been refereeing in the sanshou scene since the very beginning in the U.S. and full contact fighting before that. Everyone in sanshou knows Mike's credentials and there was a reason he was there. (and on top of that he is a kungfu master and a successful fighter from his days.) Your comment about his kungfu "rank" justifying ring experience is not valid.

THE ref not only didnt see what everyonein the stands did, he asked the judges at ringside if they ahd seen afoul

Refs are human. He didn't see it. He checks with the other officials. Where is the problem? That is the reason there are corner judges. There should be more than one set of qualified eyes on a ring.

Getting between fighters after calling break isn't a smart thing to do. Its a good way to get popped in the head. They are supposed to obey his commands. break. stop fighting keep your guard up and step back. I've never saw judo refs split up fighters, Does a football ref start grabbing guys in the middle of a pileup? Unless the ref believes that someone is in danger, he should not interfere.

Again, you're entitled to your view, but by and large Mike is a good referee. Keep watching Jimmy. don't make a decision based on one night.

I do not wish to speak badly about the USASKF but I think there is much to be desired in the way of fight promotion.

[lkfmdc]

I've know Mike Barry for years and don't have a problem with him but I am going to disagree with you

A fighter who doesn't get between the fighters is not protecting them, case in point at another event this weekend, a fighter flagrantly fouled, foot ball punting to the groin, the ref is like 3 feet away, calls break but stands there, the fighter who got fouled is holding his groin, the other A$$ HOLE runs up and then foot ball punts him in the face. Getting your nose broken in three places from a foul that the ref should have stopped is unacceptable, ref's get PAID to get "popped in the head"

ANd actually, Mike was much better when he wasn't certified by China and used common sense, since he got his IWUF license, he has been ref'ing like the Chinese = poorly

[ShaolinTiger00]

Sifu Ross,

Your instance this weekend would DEFINATELY fit it the "Unless the ref believes that someone is in danger, he should not interfere. " category. What the Hell was that about??? (why the blatant punt?)

[lkfmdc]

when Muay Thai people can't block side kicks and get hit like 20 times per round, they seem to get angry, actually, this guy in particular is a PUNK who does this all the time, he can't win because he has no skill and so he CHEATS, this one was so flagrant it became an issue obviously

but if you dont get in between, this kind of thing can happen

I am USA Boxing certified in addition to having done 100's of San Shou and Kickbxoing fights, there is a reason to always be close

[Suntzu]

Now lkfmdc u lucky this aint the NFL b'cuz u would be fined all over the place...

and as for the punt kickin azzhole... they shoulda beat his azz in the locker room

[ShaolinTiger00]

A punk in kickboxing? say it ain't so! :rolleyes:

[Xebsball]

I think the refs of UFC and Pride suck too...
Not that i seriously care for either San Shou, UFC or Pride since what i do is not what you would commonly see in the respective formats from both the final objective and given path to achievement points of view... stuff

[jimmy23]

"Mike has been refereeing in the sanshou scene since the very beginning in the U.S. and full contact fighting before that. "

then San SHou has a very bad problem with the quality of threir refs. in EVERY combat sport (Kickboxing, Muay Thai, , boxing and MMA) the Refs job is to jump in and pull fighters apart while loudly giving his commands. THis guy didht do that, he didnt position himself well at all to see what was going, and he missed a huge, obvious, foul. Ive wqorked with many pro boxing refs, Ive worked 6 professional MMA events as a judge, and a ref should never, ever, have to ask the judges what just happened in the ring right in front of him. A ref should also take control when his duties require him to, this ref consistently failed to do that. And, the ref exchanged words with a loud ,obnoxious audience member when the person loudly denounced him for missing the obvious foul. Very unprofessional. You ever see a pro boxing judge arguing with an audience member during a match? What about in MMA?

I had assumed the guy was just a rookie to full contact events. To see that he wasnt really gives me avery bad impression of the organization of this event, and of San SHou in general. THe sprot itself is exciting, but the professionalism of the officials needs a lot of work. I say this from the perspective of someone who has been around the fight game, in many capacities, for a long time.

"Keep watching Jimmy. don't make a decision based on one night."

I wont, and I truly hope to see more San SHou shows in this area.[

[Suntzu]

You ever see a pro boxing judge arguing with an audience member during a match? What about in MMA? that was a coach…
plus the fact that USA San Shou is a small and tight group, were u are so familiar with each other that stuff like that ( telling a caoch to let me do my job ) is bound to happen… plus refs argue with coaches all the time… Football, baseball, boxing, whatever... actually i was entertained by that lil segment...

[jimmy23]

oh I found it entertaining, esp since the guy was so loud everyone on the block heard him :), and the ref deserved a reaming for his mistake. IT just wasnt very professional, thats my point.

[SanShou Guru]

For the record, the referee (Mike Berry) was not arguing with someone in the crowd but the fouled fighter’s coach that was berating him about the missed call as well as the eight count that he gave for it. Mike Berry explained (unnecessarily) that he gives the eight count if he is unsure of the foul, then checks with the judges to see if they saw a foul. When one confirmed the foul he rescinded the 8 count so the fighter would not lose a point and gave a caution to the other fighter.

Also I believe the impact was not to the groin but the lower intestines or blatter. The reaction was not that of someone hit in the groin since he was holding his lower stomach and not his groin. But if below the belt means belly button down than it was indeed low.

I was warned for low blows three times by Mike Barry in the first event he ref’ed in NY in 1995 and after the fight I asked the fighter id they we low and he said none of them were. I lost that fight by a close decision and those warnings cannot have helped so I have had my own beefs with Mike in the past.

Mike Barry does need to be much louder. When I ref bouts I’m almost always hoarse the next day. I lost my voice altogether after the 50+ fights I ref’d at Cung’s August event.

[lkfmdc]

Well, if you want to know the truth, in San Diego in 2000 I round kicked the OUTER thigh and got called for a groin shot by Mike Barry, I like him but I also wonder some times what he is looking at....

And the coach in question once screamed at me when his fighter got side kicked in the GUT which is legal for those not aware....

"below the belt" or "low blow" is a term from boxing and American above the waist kickboxing and is also pretty meaningless in San Shou

In thai, as long as you don't hit the actual equipment, it's legal, San Shou definitions vary but I prefer this one for it

[jimmy23]

cool, i couldnt tell jsut how low the shot was, but it was definately periously close to the goonies.

Lkfmdc, this is a repost from the mma.tv thread on side kicks, Im hoping youll see one of these :)

"lhfmdc, i was at that show, and i know the fight your talking about, very sad.
I really noticed the side kick working that night, in several fights. How does the San SHou side kick differ from a rtraditional side kick? How does it chamber, is there alot of hip rotation, is it more of what the traditionalists call a "snap" side kick as opposed to a "thrust" side kick?

Inquiring minds want to know, I really enjoyed seeing that attack used so well in that enviroment...... "

[ShaolinTiger00]

I love the fact that MMA guys trash CMA but they go crazy when they see how we use the side kick to such a great advantage in the san shou arsenal.

no offense Jimmy ;) We can't be giving out trade secrets!

[lkfmdc]

I was not in Biloxi, I was with my fighters in NY, so we are talking about different events,,, just so we are clear, in NY, what happend was very clear

[ShaolinTiger00]

Josh, - thank you for clarifying what happened. Mike is a professional and retorting to crowd jeers is not something he would do.

Jimmy as you can see Mike has ref'd several people on this post! 4 of us?(myself included.) He's a fair guy and works to promote the sport. I know nothing of the IWUF certification or its "effect" on judging and to that I shrug my shoulders. I do not know enough to comment.

David, Josh - Please let Mike & the rest of the judging crew know that he is not being heard. I'm sure he'll take constructive critisism well and make everyone happier. He is certainly not above these kinds of things and would be the first one to tell you that he isn't the omnipresent, all seeing, all knowing referee.

Jimmy, - Please don't get me started on MMA refs :D Their record is hardly sterling.

Refs esp at the amateur level do for the love of the sport.

[jimmy23]

you are correct, but I havent tried to make this and MMA vs anybody thread. I judge for the Freestyle Fighting Championships and there is a huge emphasis there on maintaining as high a standard as possible in all aspects of our performance. I assummed that a San Shou organization would be the same, and would welcome some valid criticism............

"I love the fact that MMA guys trash CMA but they go crazy when they see how we use the side kick "

hmm, not sure how to respond to that one...........

[jimmy23]

i find it odd that you call San SHou a CMA at all, when most of its technicques are Muay tai Knees and Kicks, Western Boxing, and Westernstyel throws and sprawls.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Jimmy since you had mentioned MMA, I used it to show you the example that refs sometimes make mistakes. I have plenty of respect for MMA and wasn't pointing the gun directly at you. You were not making it a "vs" thread.

however your last post is...... "incorrect"

Sanshou has many elements of these styles you mentioned but comes directly from CMA training. china has wrestling and throwing (shuai chiao). Countries like Iran, Turkey, Russia all have local grappling styles. (grappling is about as universal as a sport can be) and strap a pair of 16 oz gloves on someone and they will use basic body mechanics to strip down the punching to fluid functional simple punches.

go back to the UG kickboxing forum and ask KhunKao how different muay thai and sanshou are. 2 ringsports that developed parallel to each other. as sanshou is growing and competition id growing the two are competing more and therefore learning more about each other. classic example is sanshou side kick vs. muay thai front kick. similar but different..

jimmy, your comment is often said by people who don't know much about the art. I'm not bashing you, I just want to provide you with the truth to pass on to others.

lkfmdc is quite the scholar on this stuff and could bury us all in a landslide of history and facts about sanshou's origins at the beginning of the the 1900's.

[Stacey]

I faught in a couple of San Shou tourneys.
They are great for a lot of reasons, but...
heres why they suck

1. Rules are not enforced. When I am being thrown because he is kneeing my groin, thats against the rules.

2. If I go to throw a guy and he drops to his knees and is tipped over its considered a "slip" and not a throw.

3. Many kung fu throws involve getting behind someone, getting their head and sweeping out their legs. The refs WILL call this as choking.

4. When the guy who takes first place blackbelt fullcontact is a college wrestler with no striking exp, you know you have a bad setup. He just picked them up and slammed them. Not bad, but it was all strength and no skill.

5. Contrary to MMA, endurance is not needed in San Shou. A couple minutes and thats it. Maybe you'll have 2 rounds with 3 minutes. Compared to boxing, this is nothing. If you have trained for endurance...ie, horse stance. MMA are better for you.


What ever happened to Kuo Shu? That seemed pretty good, did it fail for some reason?

[jimmy23]

youre right, Im only judging byt he guys that i saw fight that night. Most of them threw their kicks the muay thai way , and a few of them were very solid boxers. Fighting is fighting though, and theres only so many ways to smack someone

[Merryprankster]

4. When the guy who takes first place blackbelt fullcontact is a college wrestler with no striking exp, you know you have a bad setup. He just picked them up and slammed them. Not bad, but it was all strength and no skill.

5. Contrary to MMA, endurance is not needed in San Shou. A couple minutes and thats it. Maybe you'll have 2 rounds with 3 minutes. Compared to boxing, this is nothing. If you have trained for endurance...ie, horse stance. MMA are better for you.


Just when I thought you couldn't post anything dumber, you go and do it! Amazing! All strength and no skill ROFL!

I'd REALLY like to train San Shou one of these days. I think San Shou and BJJ or some other ground grappling art is the wave of the future for MMA fighters. I'm probably going to get too old too fast with all my BJJ comps and screwing my joints up though.

Shaolin, shoot me an e-mail when you have a chance. I've got some stuff I'd like to ask you.

[jimmy23]

"1. Rules are not enforced. When I am being thrown because he is kneeing my groin, thats against the rules."

I saw quite a bit of this the other night. THey were pretty inconsistent in enforcing the rules. in the Dixson fight his opponant was constantly holding him behind the head and hitting, the same move Id seen other fighters called on. In addition, they were very inconsistent in enforcing the nofighting on the ropes rule-some fighters gotto do it all they wanted, others didnt.


San Shou should make an effort to correct these problems, if it does it could explode inpopularity

[ShaolinTiger00]

I think San Shou and BJJ or some other ground grappling art is the wave of the future for MMA fighters.

-To that, I fully agree. You've got mail.

Jimmy, - From my experience a roundhouse looks identical in thai, sanshou, or kyukoshin, etc. - all full contact training. arts.

you're right its all fighting.


Stacey -endurance is not needed in San Shou. I'm guessing you've never won a sanshou match..
lmao @ kuoshu. ninja please.....

[jimmy23]

yah, I saw quite a few matches where endurance was the key, but thats true in any combat sport

[Suntzu]

ninja please..... :D :D :D :D :D

[lkfmdc]

anyone who says endurance is not needed in san shou simply has not fought San Shou and is a LIAR, nuff said...

[Stacey]

I'm no liar, but then I was training 5 minutes kills the bag, w/ 30 second rests for a half hour daily before I went.


compared to NHB its nothing. Just a few flurries and thats it.

I wasn't tired, I was just getting warmed up when it was over.


To me endurance means fights that last as long as they last. sometimes up to a couple of hours on a saturday afternoon, losing energy as you get hit, winded and smothered and elbowed. Fighting again and again and again winner fights the next guy waiting until he is too tired and loses.

San shou is difficult in a different way, its more sloppy, the forbidden techniques like knees and elbows make going from long range to close range, very strange by CMA standards.

I have a lot of fun w/ san shou don't get me wrong, its a great way to ease into NHB, but the san shou tourney scene isn't what it could be. You are limited by the judged understanding of what you are doing. It they don't know, its illegal.


I think combat Juijitsu is better. Too bad they don't give it a new name to be more inclusive.

[lkfmdc]

ok, what event did you compete in??

as for a wrestler winning first place, must have been a very MINOR event as no national level tournament has been won by a non "Big 6" guy since 1997

[Stacey]

I faught amateur , he was blackbelt 18 plus

Tiger Blam Internationals in BC. Jon Funk's tourney.

I talked to the guy who won. He was an Iowa State wrestler and his advice was to do lots of leg extensions.

[lkfmdc]

Tiger Balm tournament is considered a very minor San SHou event, Big 6 never goes, referee and officials are not usual crowd, equipment isn't even correct....