The Effectiveness of Pressure point fighting (?)

[Can-O-Bud]

Guys,

After doing Wing Chun for a while I am now thinking of concentrating on Pressure Point techniques.

How effective are these techiniques on the "Street"?

Wheres the best place to learn? Which books? What Videos?

[bougeac]

hi,
i'm also a wing chun practitioner and am wondering why you think pressure point techniques are necessary...

you already have a massive arsenal of striking techniques contained within the art you are training in and i would advise you stick to wing chun.

pressure points are a very interesting subject however and some are pretty usefull (especially the jugular notch), the thing to remember , is that an awfull lot of pressure points have to be hit VERY precisely, and when youve got an oponent who is charging into you at 100 mph , possibly wearing thick clothing etc, they suddenly dont look as viable as they did when someone in your local kwoon demonstrated their effectiveness on willing subjects..

precise targeting in real fighting is very difficult, you have to aim for body mass (torso,head), even then, the head , when the oponent is moving isnt always that great a target...

my last comment on pressure point stuff is this... a couple of years ago our bca representetive over here invited a guy from canade to come over and do a pressure point fighting demo for a load of top security/doorpeople, our instructor said to this guy that the people at this demo would want to see knockouts and also feel the effects first hand... he also said that it would be damaging to his reputation (hes in the security business) if the demo didnt go well...

the demo didnt go well, the guy showed different techniques/pressure point targets that he assured the people in attendance that they would drop anyone, however, the majority of the people he tried his techniques on were at best stunned, not the sort of firepower i would want to take into a fight...

[Former castleva]

Just like else,they have their place.
They can be devastating conflict stoppers,often very dangerous but also can be used to stop a conflict with little damage.
It is impossible to say how effective they exactly are...uh,I encourage you to ask more and more specific questions.

May we realize it or not,pressure point techniques can be found from nearly any martial art,they are there,not maybe always called upon.Sometimes there is more,sometimes less emphasis.
You can learn a lot of theory from books or videos,you can actually learn pretty much from web too which is full of anatomy and such resources.
Of course training will build you the best foundation.

I´d like to introduce you some of my own and common ideas of such technique to avoid possible confusion (I do not know what your experience level is though so I may be listing things which tyou take for granted :) )
Here´s one great discussion we once had,you might benefit from it. http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15412&highlight=pressure+points

Remember pressure point issues can cause a lots of confusion at first,so prepare yourself for some studies on anatomy,oriental medicine philosophy and also western ideas.
First,you may hear talking of "nerve points" and "pressure points".These two are basically one and the same,some prefer different terms.However it is good to know that in some cases and for some it is more comfortable to use "nerve" term if they don´t buy eastern theories that much,keep in mind though that very often this probably translates to pressure points.
Remember that some people refer to pressure points in a "wrong" way,for some people pressure points are basical vital/vulnerable areas ("points") such as nose,groin etc. in my opinion they are not pressure points,there are points around them but they are not pressure points (only vulnerable to pressure)
Then what are pressure points? Pressure points (in martial arts,we often talk of pressure points) acupoints,acupuncture points are are all the same.In medicine,it is usually more accurate to talk of acu/acupuncture points than pressure points even though they are in numerous cases,EXACTLY SAME POINTS (again,do not confuse with plain vulnerable areas like shin bones...) healing,harming,healing,harming...
Besides this there are nerves,nerve points,in terms of western view it is more comfortable to talk of nerves as for western medicine,pressure points are not part of curriculum basically.
Always remember though that you will find links,where there are "nerves",there may very well be "pressure points " in same areas.Differing views and understanding,it is still good to know though that there are sort of fundamental things around,western medicine and view still can´t completely believe in oriental view and most importantly,explain it thoroughly (for this reason,these two remain "separate".Western medicine may give it´s explanations on why pressure point works,increasing blood circulation&aiding hormone work etc.)

This is for now,ask more if needed.
Not to offer some kind of short course which I could not either give or have time to go trough but...refer to above.

[Ford Prefect]

I think they could possibly work, but it's hard enough just to hit an opponent with a fist. I'd say the time spent to get proficient at using them at all would be better spent elsewhere. Just MHO.

[LEGEND]

In standup sparring it seems difficult to hit an opponent moving etc...
In grappling...I did manage to use a rib thumb and create space...
In a street fight once I used a double eye gouge while the guy was on the ground=veryyyyyyyyyyy effective.

[gazza99]

First off, your martial art must work WITHOUT pressure points first. Once it does they can be easily incoorporated into the movements, if you miss, you should still be able to end the fight.


I have used pressure points in a real situation with success, twice now....

regards,
Gary R.

[jungle-mania]

I agree with gazza99 about learning an art well first before moving on to pressure point strikes. Another factor to take into account, pressure point do not work on everyone, it depends on your opponents built and from my own personal experience, genetics and what race you are from. People of african or indian or similar ancestry are mostly immune to pressure point strikes, results on caucasians tend to vary and size doesn't play a part in it. Asians of chinese or japanese ancestry or along that line, pressure point work really well on them, but for them size matters alot, the bigger they are, the harder to press. This is from my personal experience, I must point out.

[SevenStar]

"i'm also a wing chun practitioner and am wondering why you think pressure point techniques are necessary..."

:rolleyes:

no offense to you, I just hate responses like that.

Anyway, as for the question, I'm sure they're effective, but as has been said, it depends on the level of skill you have. I wouldn't teach pressure points to a complete newbie and expect him to use them effectively in a fight. someone with more experience though, could probably benefit greatly from the use of them, if they train properly.

[Lowlynobody]

"i'm also a wing chun practitioner and am wondering why you think pressure point techniques are necessary..."


In my limited experience pressure point striking and nerve hitting are already built into systems of fighting. By simply learing about meridians and presure points you can see where your techniques are attacking. Thus there is no reason to learn anything new as far as techniques are conserned. Remember alot of the founders of your arts where healers to.

As far as bigger guys go - ther bigger they are the bigger the target area. And for penetration of the area condition your hands.



Lowlynobody.

[Former castleva]

jungle-mania,that is some whole new information to me,of course remembering that it is your personal experience.
There has been an idea that pressure points may not work that well on everyone,but it is said that on most they do.
More things to keep in mind of is person´s state on who it is used on-influence of drugs or alcohol etc. person´s health and age are factors to think of.
I think in many of these things would rather work to receiver´s disadvantage (old age,disease like heart problem or related affects also one´s reaction to a certain meridian) Just like highly emotional/committed ppl,drug addict may not react to pure pain in a desired way (as in various pressure points,pain compliance is used) mechanical disabling might still work.
I think one of good things about pp application was supposed to be it´s effect regardless of size (this is a general idea for sure) Besides knowing that different body type,larger size of muscle may protect certain area from such attack.While it is hard to build such tissue on your face.
All I can say of race etc. related differences is that if we take a look at Indian martial arts,which to me translates as kalaripayit (most well known Indian MA possibly) we will see tons of pressure point application.Indian branch of medicine also deals with slightly similar theory as that of chinese.

[MA fanatic]

I agree with all of you. When talking about pressure points, I think nerve manipulation (such as the vagas nerve) is effective
to an extent. But, I have to question the effectiveness of pressure point strikes based on the meridian system. I have studied an art called kyoshujitsu in the passed and attended some seminars conducted by "top" pressure point instructors. ON those seminars I saw the same old scene. I saw black belts so grossly out of shape, that they could barely catch their breath after literally ten situps. When I asked my instructor (he was a ryuku kempo guy) about the physical condition of these black belts, he said that they devote most of their time to studying meridians, and analyzing how to set up pressure point attacks utilizing the circle of destruction hidden in Okinawan Kata. I think most of these guys would be KOed by anyone before could even pronounce kata. I have also seen some guys who devote their time to pressure points spar and lose royaly. One guy fought in UFC 7 stating that he will KO his apponents with secret techniques from his Okinawan Karate style. I saw the guy go for set up meridian pressure point attacks. He was thrown on the grown and choken in seconds by a guy named Remko Pardoe. Pardoe literally brushed off all pressure point attacks. As for more complex Dim Mak type strikes, I don't think there is any proof that any of them work or have ever worked. All we really know are stories and legends which may or may not be factual.
If you're going to start studying pressure points, make sure you can already fight and are already conditioned. Otherwise, dont' waste your time. It's hard enough hitting a guy with a jab. WIthout training, you'd never be able to set up a pressure point attack. If you are a good fighter already, start with some basic books on Dim Mak (Earle Montaigue has some good ones). George Dillman also has some good basic books and videos.
MA fanatic

[Can-O-Bud]

I've not been training all that long, but I'd still like to research a bit more on the subject of PP fighting.

Can anyone suggest any good web sites?

[Former castleva]

One reason for why pressure points may have failed in competitions and such cases (talking of cases where effectivenes is laid to public examination only) is that while to an uneducated eye it would seem easy to pop out and say "Ah,that´s bull,it won´t work" could be because of various elements that affect the results.
Just popping a certain point may not bring good results,actually there are points which are vulnerable to various attacks differing attacks.
"Points" to remember include:
angle,
targeting (obvious)
force,
time (of day,understanding that meridians/organs work in 2 hour cycle trough the day.Even though time may not always mix,you can compensate with more force)
proper "weapon".

Can-O-Bud,
I´d do a search,there is a lot out there (I use "google" engine for mine) Just refer to terms that you can think of.
Also searching acupuncture and TCM sites helps see things more clearly,such sites are also pretty well done in many cases.

[old jong]

Most of these things work exactly the same way show hypnotism or preatcher's ''spock touch'' work!....The subject want's to please the demonstrator and complies even believing it's for real.
One sifu once tried some pressure points on me and I felt nothing at all even if some other guys were experimenting intolerable pain from the same techniques.
These things have a very relative effectiveness depending on too many factors to be considered ''safe'' to use in a real situation.It is better (IMO) to stick to the more basic and obvious targets like the eyes,throat,vague nerve,solar plexus and things like these and forget about the ''hit that spot at 3:51 after the first full moon of september in the year of the pig '' thing! ;)

[HuangKaiVun]

Check out the Chinese classic "The Bubishi".

There is a ton of vital point stuff there, some of which is very painful.

I've had this stuff done to me and have done it to others, and there's a lot of damage that can be done. Try sticking a thumb in somebody's eye - which is one of the 36 "death" points.

My experience in using these points is that grappling gets at these points better than striking does.

[Former castleva]

One thing I need to add is that as far as I know,one factor which effects the outcome.
While it is true that self-inflicted tension may cause significant differences as oldjong wisely notes,in case of religious "knock-outs" and related stuff,there is lots of previously mentioned "electricity" going on (funny by the way,in some cases I have heard that there would have been use of pressure points...) there has been scientific study on such subjects.

In dim mak (pp) there is scientifical&mechanical base for what is done (call it what you wish,but TCM is science too,and has a long,long history.If needed for some reason,you can do your best by explaining it trough western medicine which is allright to me) *That was not directed to anyone specific*

"Try sticking a thumb in somebody's eye - which is one of the 36 "death" points."
Probably true.Not directly a pressure point though,referring to my first post.Various can be found very close though...

In pp techniques in demonstration cases,there are two sides I think (this I base on my own ideas,partly)
As previously mentioned,cooperating partners "willing" to go down.
AND "difficult" ppl not wishing to go down (well in a case of a good technique,little can be done but just if...)
In this second example,practitioner/receiver knows what is going to happen,is able to keep one´s cool and concentrate on what´s happening.
If centered enough,it can be more difficult to cause notable results against such a person,however,if it´s possible to shift one´s attention elsewhere then in that case the consequences can crash down like lightning if applied.
An person ignorant of what´s going to happen,as in an attack,is unlikely to expect to be attacked to spleen 3 which he is unlikely to be aware of...therefore there´s is also element of surprise around.
I need more study on this subclass of the subject though.

[old jong]

I have no doubts that some of these techniques may work for real in a demo setting but....The percentage (As Merry likes to say!) ;) could be very well take a steep down course against some adrenaline pumping agressor who charges you with an ax in his hand while on crack!...:eek:

[Martial Joe]

I think presure point fighting is more effective on the ground.

[Slappy McHappy]

Pressure point striking can save your life on the street, but to base an entire fighting system around it is a joke. Ever seen a boxign match? It's hard enough to find someone's nose with yoru fist, so howbout finding their governing vessels through their armpits with your index finger?

I would advise some training with pressure points, but don't make it your main focus

[joedoe]

My sifu always tells us that pressure points are unreliable. He then demonstrates this on one of the students who happens to be pretty immune to most pressure point attacks.

So gazza's advice is valid - your art must be good enough to overcome your attacker without pressure points. Pressure points are an option for you to use if you have the opportunity but they should not be your main fighting strategy.

[ZIM]

I've had this stuff done to me and have done it to others, and there's a lot of damage that can be done. Try sticking a thumb in somebody's eye - which is one of the 36 "death" points.

Really?? You've done this?

So...How'd your court date go? ;)

Not really trolling here- I think that takes plain steel cojones to do a thing like that- and to try to explain it afterwards (esp. to TEST it)....too much for me! I'll just stick with plain jane kung fu and say the dog did it. :p

[gazza99]

Somone asked about more info? I have on my website the meridian charts for the points, some with brief descriptions. Im still working on it. But hey, its free...

www.pressurepointfighting.com

Again, please keep in mind this is not a stand alone system of fighting, but an addendum once you can already use your system!

Gary

[MA fanatic]

If you want to be a good fighter and good at self defense: Train hard, condition your body, be ready to fight any time, be able to feel pain and inflict pain on others, etc. etc. I read the Bubishi. I read tons of books on meridians, kyoshu, Dim Mak, nerve manipulation, circle of destruction, 24hr cicles when certain organs are most vulnerable to strikes, etc. etc. Trust me, when someone is swinging at you, you're not going to be looking at the clock to determine the proper way ot setting up a deadly strike which will shut down the liver.
MA fanatic

[TaoBoy]

My standpoint on this is that pressure points are pretty cool weapons to have but - as Gary has been saying - you need to know how to fight first. There's no use in trying to hit a point somewhere if you know nothing of timing and distance etc.

[GeneChing]

Kung fu fail as Muay Thai practitioner makes mockery of master’s pressure point techniques (https://www.scmp.com/sport/martial-arts/kung-fu/article/3032383/kung-fu-fail-muay-thai-practitioner-makes-mockery)
Kung fu master tries to show bicep pressure point technique can beat Muay Thai clinch
However it just proves hilariously and embarrassingly ineffective
Nick Atkin
Published: 6:11pm, 10 Oct, 2019

https://cdn.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/1200x800/public/d8/images/methode/2019/10/10/5ae77f96-eb30-11e9-9e8e-4022fb9638c4_image_hires_181125.jpg?itok=MPZF6V5T&v=1570702289
A Muay Thai practitioner clinches a kung fu master. Photo: YouTube/Fight Commentary Breakdowns

It seems the only people who believe pressure point kung fu is actually real are the “masters” who practise it themselves.
In a video that has gone viral, a Chinese kung fu master pitted his skills against a Western Muay Thai practitioner.
The master claimed his bicep pressure point technique could counter the traditional Muay Thai clinch, despite his opponent also being a lot bigger than him.
The results are as hilarious as you’d expect.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBOlQg0aMDU

The Muay Thai practitioner applies the clinch, and the kung fu master starts hitting him with chops to the bicep – one of the supposed pressure points that, if struck with a direct hit, can instantly defeat an opponent.

The opponent just shrugs off the chops and keeps the clinch tight, fastening his arms around the back of kung fu master’s neck to reduce the distance.
Kung fu ‘master’ gets comeuppance from taekwondo fighter after sucker eye-poking Chinese kick-boxer
Seemingly frustrated, he then tries to knee his opponent (which, of course, is a dangerous game against a Muay Thai fighter if you’re signalling that knees are OK).
Thankfully our Muay Thai man goes easy on him – it’s just a sparring session after all.

THREADS
The Effectiveness of Pressure point fighting (?) (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?17416-The-Effectiveness-of-Pressure-point-fighting-(-))
Muay Thai (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?26700-Muay-Thai)