Iron Palm newbie

[African Tiger]

So I just had my first class in Iron Palm and Poison Hand with Sifu T. this past weekend....mmmmmmm, breaking bricks...I can't wait!

Anyway, Sifu mentioned there are many different methods (including the Japanese/Korean way - HA!) and different training schedules; i.e. 3x per day for 100 days, 1x per day for 2-3 years, etc.

So is there anyone out there who has achieved Iron Palm, and if so, which method did you use?

[IronFist]

Correct me if I'm wrong: Isn't poison hand where the hand is soaked in certain herbs to cause it to secrete poison? It's very deadly, but you also can't touch stuff or something?

Anyway, if it's not that, what do you guys call "poison hand."

Do you start doing poison hand and iron palm at the same time?

I'm thinking very hard about beginning some iron palm training myself this week or next.

IronFist

[GGL]

I have been iron palm training for a number of years now.. really gotta understand the principles of iron palm to use it correctly.. and yes it will take a couple of years to gain.. and remember the jow.. you will use it a lot.. really look at the practical application of the training.. I use it in Shuai Chiao to conceal strikes as grabes.. although it can follow up with pure strikes.. now the brick topic.. its kool and all to break bricks, but keep in mind the bricks don't move or hit back:)

with this it can come in really handy.. although if you have a kid and belive in spanking him/her... be careful you can hurt the child more then what is meant to be..

but that is my opinion

Greg

[Diu Sao]

My sifu is teaching me a method of iron palm that requires no Dit Da Jow. He's the only one I have heard of that teaches it this way. He says that too much jow can give you joint problems and over calcification of the ligaments/bones. He says the key is the breathing.



Diu Sao

[IronFist]

I hear you can use hot/warm water instead of jow for some kinds.

IronFist

[fiercest tiger]

yes, u can use herbs boiled in water but dont let your hands dry in the cold u will get fung sup, meaning arthritis or wind bone dampness.

check my site for a basic herbal formula you can boil and make.

cheap as chips!!

:)

FT

[Dale Dugas]

Diu Sao,

I would be leery of anyone who says you do not need some form of medicine, whether internal or external when you are working an ironpaln/hand training regime. Especially if you are hitting your hands against bags of different forms of materials.

Trauma to the joints of the hand/wrist without massage and medicine can cause some serious loss of joint function as well as increase your chances of having a blood clot from a serious hematoma break off and travel somewhere in your body and kill you when you are striking gravel or steel/iron shot in the advanced stages.

Too much jow causing trouble? I was taught that too much of a vinegar based jow can cause your bones some trouble in the long run.

You should talk to someone qualified in Dit Da Ke(Chinese traumatology skills) and let them explain why jow is the only way to go when your hitting things.

I have been over using jow for years and I have never had any trouble other than smelling like the herbs and having friends wonder what the hell the smell is and where it was coming from.

I see from your profile that you train in Choy Lee Fut. I remember an article years back from Doc Fai Wong about the 2 jows that his students use for his hand training method. One you soak in before and then one used for the massage after the hitting is completed. Sifu Wong is also a licensed herbalist/acupuncturist.

Why would your sifu say that only the breathing is the key? Usually its the breathing combined with all the other parts of the practice regime that spell success in this type of training.


In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Nevermind]

I'll be starting Iron Palm in about 2 weeks (when I'll have the money for the materials). I'm pretty excited about it, just not the first 100 days. From what I've been told, you have to go the first 100 days without sex or alcohol. Anyone else ever hear of this? In Sigung Wing Lam's new book on Iron Palm, he even mentions that some people abstain from sex all together the entire length of Iron Palm training. You're talking 7-10 years! I guess after thinking of it that way, 100 days ain't so bad. One of our Sihings, who has been doing Iron Palm for about 5 years now, was told by our Sifu when he started to not attempt a break for the first year. He didn't listen and broke a brick after 10 days. His heart went into palpatations (sp?) and he had to be rushed to the hospital. I guess it pays to listen your Sifu. Needless to say, I won't be trying a break anytime soon. I've also heard that some people experience some pretty intense psychological changes after starting Iron Palm. Anyone experience this?

[old jong]

Just on the side!...
Don't forget that many from various styles can break stuff without any iron palm training at all!
I have seen TKD guys break about six inches of wood,bricks etc with their hands!!!!!
The traditionnal karate guys only work on the makiwara and get good results without any ''medecine''
As they say: ''There are many ways to skin a cat!''

[Nevermind]

What's up OJ! I have seen pictures of my old TKD instructor breaking bricks with his bare fist. I even saw some of the senior black belts at his school doing the same thing. However, without proper conditioning, aren't you doing damage to your hands in the long run. There was an article in the TKD Times where a TKD black belt did an experiment. He conditioned one hand with the Japanese/Korean method of simply striking hard surfaces such as the makiwara. With the other hand he used the Chinese Iron Palm method. The results were as different as night and day. The Japanese/Korean method was extremely painful and he often had to put a hold on his training just so his hand could heal. The end result was a hand that was dangerous for combat, but severely calloused and scarred. He also commented about certain masters who had used this same method who now have to have people sign things for them because of long term damage to their hands. The hand in which he used the Iron Palm method had much better results. The training was virtually painless by comparison and any bruising or discomfort experienced was quickly healed by using the Dit Da Jow. The only physical difference in his hand was that it grew larger. There were no visible scars or callouses. So you're right. There is more than one way to skin a cat. But some ways are simply more practical than others.

[old jong]

Hey nevermind!
One thing we have to think about is: Everything we do has some effect in the long run.I agree that the Chinese way looks safer at first glance and seems to protect the hands well from the bad effects sometimes too visible in the other methods.
We can not generalise about the other methods because the best of the karate breakers often show no callusses or difformity on their hands.Some have said that they break more with their mind than their hands.I'm not talking about these extreme breaking american competitions here! But, about those who include these techniques as a part of a complete mind/body martial art system.This is a disappearing specie these days.
Just some thoughts. ;)

[Nevermind]

You raise an interesting point, OJ. My TKD teacher had been doing TKD for over 40 years. His hands looked pretty normal. However, on the other hand, at his school's 25th anniversary demo, he broke 5 boards with a reverse punch. He didn't show any signs of pain and even shook hands with people afterwards. Later, it was revealed that he had broken his hand. I guess what counts is that you have a good instructor who places an emphasis on preserving the hand while conditioning it. I'm sure a broken hand can happen to anyone regardless of what method of conditioning they use. I often found it amazing that he could break stacks of bricks and show no visible callouses or scars. I had heard that he'd studied some kung fu in the past. So who knows what conditioning method he used.

[Nevermind]

Hey, OJ, one important factor I completely forgot about in regards to my last post. My old TKD instructor had a bout with cancer several years back. He's completely in remission and healthy today. But that breaking demo in which he broke his hand was around the time that he had undergone chemotherapy. From what I understand, chemo can cause weakening of the bones. So I'm sure this had something to do with him breaking his hand at that demo. Just wanted to correct myself.

[old jong]

I guess the key thing is to use your head,have patience and some common sense before anything else.

[Nevermind]

Word.

[GeneChing]

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[IronFist]

fiercest tiger, I didn't mean boiling herbs in water, I meant just using warm water by itself.

Nevermind, as for no sex for 100 days, have fun with that one, especially if you're a male like 23 or under. I'm not saying you lack the self control, I'm just saying when you're asleep your body will expel what it needs to expel...

As for that guy who messed up his heart or whatever, he must have used way to much force or something. When you break something with iron palm I've always heard you should be completely relaxed, same as when you're striking the bag. Unless that story was just made up to scare the students into dedication... kind of like how they used to say "if you don't practice Iron Palm every day at exactly the same time you won't get any results at all, even if you are off by one second or one minute."

IronFist

[Diu Sao]

I'm going to class tonight and I'll ax(ask) sifu more details about the over use of Jow. He has inherited this technique from the very begginings of the style (family member to family member) and has over 50 years of experience. In sayign that breathing was the key, I didn't mean that it was the only major factor involved. I meant that it was the key to not damaging the joints etc. Of course different surfaces, methods and techniques come into play. I should have clarified that to a higher degree. I was trying to be short and efficient. Thanks for the insight though. I'll have more to add after 11:00 PM pacific time.


Diu Sao

[fiercest tiger]

I know other arts that dont use jow and have come to my school with bad hands, even goju karate sensies i have given herbs too. I wouldnt do it with out the herbs etc.

later
FT

[TkdWarrior]

Tkd conditioning is not very much painful n it doesn't develop callauses...but it's very much exhaustive... my teacher n his teacher hav developed with this same method, continously hitting(mild) n then later on just rubbing the portion...u seen good results in around 6 months...we don't prefer any kind of Dit ja Jow for this... warm water can do it too...
i hav heard about ba-gua internal way.... dunno much sure wat it can develop good palm in couple of years...
any info??
-TkdWarrior-

[TaoBoy]

I admit iron palm training does sound pretty interesting....one question...why are you guys wanting to train iron palm?

Just curious. :)

[fiercest tiger]

Why, because its part of my system. Its like saying you learnt most of the system, iron palm is part of my system. s/mantis also has iron palm, why dont you train it?

why not learn it if it helps you for fighting?:)

Garry
FT:)

[TaoBoy]

I'm not dissing the practice. I haven't trained it. Yes, it is part of SPM but I haven't been exposed to it...yet. I agree that it should be practiced as part of a system. I'm wondering why so many people go out and look for it as a compliment to their training. Just curious...really...there's no more to it.

[TaoBoy]

Oh, and I'm not suggesting it isn't a worthwhile thing to do. :)

[Lowlynobody]

Because when you get hit by someone who has done iron palm training it feels like being hit by a lump of wood or steel. Kinda like this morning when a certain someone only just lightly tapped me on the neck ;)

[African Tiger]

sounds like the "love tapps" Sifu Totten gives out during class. :o

Well I'm doing it mostly for the glory, I have to admit. As far as having to use Iron Palm in combat....dunno. I imagine if I got into a fight with the likes of Vin Diesel, it would certainly come in handy :D

Poison Hand, on the other hand (hey, I made a funny!) would be quite useful in street combat. Imagine being able to stop someone with one finger/one hit?

[fiercest tiger]

Ask your sifu about learning it?:)

Lowlyguy

Maybe you deserve a good spanking? MOEWSES!!

LOL
ft

[Qi dup]

So how did your class go African Tiger?

[Nexus]

In regards to not having sex, lets just be clear, 'if it sounds like bullsh*t, it probably is.'

There are many people past and present who have successfully trained iron palm without abstaining from sex. There are also many internal practitioners who are quite skilled without wrapping themselves in a 'knot' over the benefits of semen retention. Although it is obvious that anything in excess is detrimental (including iron palm training itself), don't bite off more than you can chew when it comes to mystical rules and regulations that must be followed in order to train your art. Remember the martial arts are about improving your life, not setting rules and restrictions. If you have the mind, heart, spirit to do it, you'll be fine.

[Lowlynobody]

Fiercest tiger - LOL Maybe I do. But I think I'll get it from one with softer hands :p

[fiercest tiger]

You been hanging with a certain person? redneck types?

lol

FT