The myth of todays kung fu fighting exposed [Archive]

blacktaoist

11-05-2002, 02:54 PM

Everyones getting upset about reality because most have never had a taste of it it the real fighting world or any other so-called fighting worlds.
It be nice if we could hear people praise their teachers now and then or talk about some of their own exploits without empty bragging of potental capabilities.
True there are many levels in all styles but thats not important.
If you're a true fighter you'll go around periodically testing your skills against whomever will ablige you. You'll learn from your experience win, lose, or draw and back to the drawing board PHYSICALLY, MENTALLY AND SPIRITUAL you better go if you get whuppped.
I've kicked a lot of ass in my time and that included boxers, grappling, practitioners and misc streefighters. I've met real masters who me nor any porofessional I've ever seen would stand a chance against. Most will never get this opportunity.

The truth is Kung fu has always known for it's secretly and many will never see the real thing.

This is a forum everyone can say what the want so tune in to the void and see what you creative self can pull out because you'll be needing something if you run across someone who might be trying to send you back to the void.

Write a book if you want to get famous for jive time quotes.
This forum is for Kung fu not philosophy discussions.

The next time you're at a tounament Spirit writer/ evolution fist
put up something or shut up.

Anyone talking must put up in order to gain this fighters respect.
This is how it was and always will be done.
At least we can say this guy tried though he wasn't a good example of what a kung fu fighter should do. But then who is?

And thus we have the myth of the internal kung fu fighter. Find a real teacher not selling fantasy is the "First Step"!

Peace All
BT

Shadow Dragon

11-05-2002, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Spirit Writer
One last thing, the answer to every single question asked here: "ask your teacher".

AMEN, to that.

To be honest listening to some of the Folks on here I think they must be the dummest S.O.B's to walk the Planet.

They already got all the answers, true skills and know all about MA and their style, but still fork out good bucks to pay someone to teach them what they appear to know already.

Talk about getting suckered out of your allowance.
:D

Cheers.

BSH

11-05-2002, 04:54 PM

Hey, I just watched a 3 month BJJ guy get beaten up by GM of a Traditional Martial Art. All BJJ people must suck.

Did I just explode the myth of Brazilian JuJitsu?

I'm glad we all want to be practicing the ultimate martial art. Thankfully nothing could ever be better for every single person than the art I train.

Wait a minute while I remove my tongue from its position just outside of my teeth.

Much better.

Train hard, enjoy life and worry more about what you are doing than what others are doing.

Empty Fist

11-05-2002, 09:44 PM

Thanks for sharing the clip. Interesting the BJJ guy was just wearing shorts which is not realistic. In a street fight you would be wearing more clothes. The Karate guy was at severe disadvantage on the ground as a result of the BJJ gut just wearing shorts (there is nothing to grab but sweaty skin). I’ll say this, if the Karate guy landed a hit on the BJJ dude’s a vital point you may have seen a different outcome. I studied Judo and JuiJitsu for 3 years and I’ll tell you this, the art does not teach you how to defend yourself adequately against strikes. Bull rushing an opponent can be effective but it also can lead you to be vulnerable.

The clip supports my belief that a belt is only good to keep your pants up. Just because someone is a black belt does not impress me. It is the time and effort that you put into the art that makes the real difference. Sorry but going to Karate, Judo, or any other martial art class two to four hours a week to earn a black belt is not enough time in my opinion to become a true master of any martial art. I will always consider myself a Student for Life as far as Tai Chi Chuan or any other martial art is concerned.

blacktaoist

11-05-2002, 10:09 PM

One last thing, the answer to every single question asked here: "ask your teacher".

This show me just how dumb some people are, It not about asking your teacher $hit, if your teacher is teaching you fake $hit. Bottom line is, most of you punks can't apply your $hit in a real situation, like always you try to go around the issue of the discussion.

shadow dragon:

They already got all the answers, true skills and know all about MA and their style, but still fork out good bucks to pay someone to teach them what they appear to know already.

If you talking about me,I don't pay out good bucks to any one to learn $hit #3. If you or anyone think I don't know my $hit, all you have to do is pay me a visit to find out, its that EASY. Win or lose, you better have a first aid kit by your side. I don't think I'm bad or think I can kick the whole martial world ass, but I have no problem sparring any internal martial artist, I don't care who they are. Its all good.

You so-called internal martial scholar punks are so funny to me, always talking about chi and unpractical Kung Fu Bull$hit, or if your punks not talking about internal martial arts Bull$hit, your talking about some chinese so-called internal form player master, like he is a chinese superman of the internal martial arts.

Most of these chinese individuals that you punks think are fierce fighters, never been in a real fight, but you fools are the ones paying all the money to these unskilled teachers. Now tell me, who is the FOOL and DUMB ASS.

Most of you up here never test out your teachers skill level unrehearse, But you dumb ass think just because your teacher show you a few rehearse techniques, means they have real skill in the style their teaching you.

Or better yet, You dumb fools think a forms is what the internal is all about. That's all most you dumb ass talk about is forms, or how great someone look doing a form, as if practicing forms going to make you a good martial artist or be able to utilize your techniques, then sparring.

Bottom line, before, you talk about other peole viewpoints , the first thing most people up here need to do is get real with themself and stop hiding like little girls behind these fake names talking bull$hit, they know they don't have the martial skills to back up the Bull$hit their talking. But many up here say they are martial artist, yeah Right.

Get real or keep the Bull$hit moving.

Shadow Dragon

11-05-2002, 10:19 PM

BT.

No, I was not talking about you.

But you seem to take things very personal, got a bit of an personality or ego problem there?

As for your rants and ravings, they gone stale a long time ago. Change the record or shut the **** up.
Seen your type many times in my yrs of MA practice.

Claiming that they got the true goods and that most of the masters are **** and can't do jack.

On one hand you want to expose frauds within the internal Ma, but are not willing to give out name of who YOU claim to have no skills.

Be the tough man you claim to be and expose them openly here, you must have better skill than about most of the accepted MA masters out there according to your claims.

So come out and proove to us that you are right and they are wrong.

But I guess you will never do that, because without your little crusade you would have nothing.

So here is my challenge to you:

Name the Guys with no skills or shut up. Post them here so that we all can read them.

I for one got enough of your rants and postering on here, you are nothing better than a 2nd class troll to me from now on.

Seeya.

maoshan

11-05-2002, 10:27 PM

OK, let’s go.

Spirit Writer

(I don't understand the myth being exposed here.)
(What I really don't understand is why everyone is so concerned about everyone else's ability. Who cares?)

The myth being exposed here is the fact that (going back to the last myth thread) that guy was convinced, by somebody, that he could do this. Who else but his teacher.
It doesn’t make any sense at all. This guy put up $5000, as the story relates, to fight a BJJ practitioner. Now he did have heart, I’ll give him that, but the rest falls on his teacher. Who else?
Who sets the standard by which you follow? Your teacher.
Who do you question about all things martial? Your teacher.
That’s the way it supposed to be.
If the student doesn’t have a model, what do you expect?
That guy didn’t even know how to throw a kick. But, he put up $5000 to lose in 30sec. That should make you consider that while I don’t care about any one’s personal approach, I’m concerned about the teaching.
Let it be presented correctly. If they can’t handle it, it’s on them.
At lest, even if they are a lazy trainer, they, at lest, will be near some form of standard. Not Substandard.

Ability?
You need a correct foundation to gain any ability. And a guide to keep you straight. With out it you’re just wasting your time and money. Like the guy in the clip.

Who cares?
I DO. Ba-Gua as a true martial art is dying. And I will do all that I can to keep the truth of alive. Martial arts as whole are spiraling down a bottomless pit. But yet, there are many of the true practitioners that are not just training for a fad, but rather to truly be good. If their not taught correctly they’ll either
1. Continue to perpetuate this through teaching. Or
2. Befall the fate of the Clip guy 0r,
3. Both (starts teaching and then gets beat up)

(Who cares what people say about kung fu or martial arts? As long as when they say it to your face you can say, "Come on; I'll show you)

That’s true for the outside world. This is the world of martial arts. I’m not concerned about the thoughts of those who are not a part of that world when it comes to this topic. I hate Luke warm!
Do you not understand, at lest, Praise or disgust amongst your own?
The spirit needs stimulation to proceed. Like-mindedness makes progress. It gives you grand thoughts In terms of goals. Makes you want to work harder.
Somebody getting in your face should be simple task. It’s the person that can fight. That has this way of thinking, which should make you think. For with out it, you will never know your true potential. Steel sharpens steel. No way around it. With out stimulation you cannot proceed.
In the world of Martial Arts, we judge each other. That’s the way it’s been, is and, will be. Weather to your face or not, your being judged. Don’t be stupid.
What’s your standard? If it’s below standard, you need to be training now, to reach the standard in order to know what you’re talking about. For without reaching the standard you lack the experience to talk $hit at all. It’s all speculation. Thus inadmissible. Dead. You know what I’m sayin?

Also, Spirit writer, we know who you are. Train man, Just train.

Maoshan

blacktaoist

11-05-2002, 10:38 PM

First of off, I don't have to give you $hit or prove anything to a punk hiding behind a fake name. Like I said if you want to find out If I'm full of $hit All you have to do is come see me,. Shut me up, I'm waiting, waiting, waiting, any yet not one of you fakes name s punks came and beat me down with your so-called Chi or explosive powerthat many of you fakes are posting about.

I put my money down your punk ass is not even in japan, your just like most of these fake ass, all talk and can't be found.

Now if you are in Japan, I tell you what, I be going to Beijing next month, but I be in Japan a few days staying with a friend. Now if your so bad , then Hey , I'm willing to meet your punk ass.
And we see just how good your ass is.

Because like I said, most of you internal cats can't fight, And I bet your one of them. PUNK."

Shadow Dragon

11-05-2002, 10:49 PM

Suspected as much.

Once you are in Japan(yes, I am here) we can meet and down a few drinks. and maybe than you can give me the names you refuse to post publicly.

I am not asking for a fight, I am asking for the names of the guys that you claim cannot apply their internal skills.
Plain and simple, if you refuse to provide them I must assume that your statements are false.

This has nothing to do with my skill or me fighting you or anything else.

Seeya.

Ye Gor

11-05-2002, 10:54 PM

Maoshan, Blacktaoist, you're waisting your breath. You can't change people with words. Especially if you call them stupid, fakes, punks, etc. You're waisting your time here.

And if you really care about the state of MA and want to change it for the better... then what you're doing here won't do the trick. You're going about it the wrong way.

Shadow Dragon

11-05-2002, 11:01 PM

Ye Gor.

I agree with you.

Just want to find out if BT considers my Chen TJQ instructor one of those Guys he keeps ranting about.

So far he refused to name the guys he touched hands with over here in Japan, even though I asked him to either e-mail or pm me in case he didn't want to give names publicly.

Seeya.

blacktaoist

11-05-2002, 11:41 PM

Its not your business who I cross hands with in japan or even in Beijing. I know a lot of individuals that practice all kinds of martial arts. And I don't have to tell you $hit, because for one I don't know you. Two I don't care what you think. like I said I don't play games, and I'm a man of my word, next month when I'm in Japan we can meet up, And We can compare skills.

You claim you know people that can fight utilizing the so-called internal in a real fight, well When I'm in Japan I'm willing to find out. Chen style Tai Chi, this $hit I have to see. Because I still stand by my opinions on this issue. When I'm in Japan I like to see you prove me wrong. (then after that, maybe we can be friends)

Ye Gor:
I'm just having fun. I can careless about what these people do up here or who they follow. But truth is truth today most internal martials arts is endless dance, that many today love to claim as true martial art. I'm not going to play the martial politics, I going to tell you the real deal. And if these so-called martial art scholars don't like it to bad.

.

Ye Gor

11-05-2002, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by blacktaoist
I'm just having fun Well, $hit.
Hmmm... I want to have fun too.

Shadow Dragon

11-05-2002, 11:53 PM

BT.

If it is not my business and you got nothing too proove than I got no business with you nor need to proove anything to you either.

You make claims here, but when you are called on them you refuse to answer.
I never claimed anything, those claims exist in your head and there alone.

I am willing to learn the true IMA, but tough when the people that claim to have it or know who got it are not willing to share their knowledge.

So I guess I will have to go with the dance classes than, and maybe they will proove to be the real deal.
;) ;)

Have fun.

maoshan

11-06-2002, 12:00 AM

Shadow Dragon

Yes you were, not just him, but the both of us.
Ego? Don’t play us stupid. Reading is fundamental. Besides, by your reply, it’s even more obvious.

What masters are you referring to? There was only one master that was spoken of whose name was not mentioned. Other than that, what the hell are you talking about?

As for being around for years, we’ve been around for years, and aren’t going anywhere.

Oh yeah, and we got the goods, and we didn’t have to pay to get it. All teachers look for that pearl in the sea of mud and when they find it, they nurture it. Customers pay, Practitioners learn and excel.

(On one hand you want to expose frauds within the internal Ma, but are not willing to give out name of who YOU claim to have no skills)

It‘s a word to the wise. You want somebody to do your footwork for you. ****that. We did the work for ourselves, not for the world. A sign is all that the wise need.
Seek the Info out. Do the research. You said you’ve been around for years and you’re in Japan at that. So how come you can’t find out your self? What’s up with that? Did you choose the first teacher you found with no background check? That’s on you.
You want to blast BT for not telling you the names of those we’ve come in contact with. Who are you? He don’t know you. Why should he tell you? You didn’t even approach right. You assume he’s just supposed to tell you? Why? Your nobody to him. We live by a code. When your down you get the inside knowledge, other than that, you stay in the dark unless you get lucky.
Besides when the names have been mentioned we got nowhere. People continue with their star worship and the world goes round and round. Out right verbal attacks but no test, No one will see if what we’re saying is true against the source or us. They just do character attacks. Which means nothing in the world of fighting. A good guy can fight, so can a bad guy, the point is they can fight that’s all that matters.

(Be the tough man you claim to be and expose them openly here, you must have better skill than about most of the accepted MA masters out there according to your claims.)

You’re trying to goad somebody with this one.
We’re not stupid. It’s for us to know and you to find out. We will not do your footwork for you.

(I for one got enough of your rants and postering on here, you are nothing better than a 2nd class troll to me from now on

You want somebody to cry or what?
We‘ll continue to talk the way we talk regardless of you, again who are you? Sounds like your having a tantrum because you can’t get your way. You want a BOBO? A glass of warm milk maybe?
We can’t help you.

(Once you are in Japan (yes, I am here) we can meet and down a few drinks.)

If he meets you, it won’t be to have a drink my friend. You don’t tell a man to shut the **** up unless you the lest amount of respect for that man. That’s fighting words. And in the world of martial arts… Need I say more?

(I am not asking for a fight)

You just did.

(This has nothing to do with my skill or me fighting you or anything else.)

Bull$hit, Ranting? 2nd class troll? Come on man? This is not a game.

(Just want to find out if BT considers my Chen TJQ instructor one of those Guys he keeps ranting about)

Ego? Sounds like you have an insecurity problem man. What makes you think that it was your instructor that he sparred with? Everybody knows that all we’re interested in is Ba-Gua but the truth of the matter is the statement was a general one. He sparred Karate guys. He never mentioned Tai chi. Are you hallucinating?
Where did you get this?

Now you don’t want to fight. You’re a joke man and you’re not somebody we want to know.

blacktaoist

11-06-2002, 12:12 AM

You make claims here, but when you are called on them you refuse to answer.

Like I said when I'm in Japan, I'm willing to meet up with you and compare skills.. I can show you better then I can tell you. And that's for real.

Peace
BT

Shadow Dragon

11-06-2002, 12:22 AM

BT.

Yes, I am willing to meet you to share info.

I know already that your skill exceeds mine, I am still fairly new to the IMA scene (4+yrs), my JMA & CMA studies consist of another 20+ yrs.

Always willing to learn something new from fellow MA.

People over here are very open to sharing and we have many friendly get-togethers and booze-ups.
This crosses styles and even between Japanese and Chinese MA.

I can take you with to some open Push hand meetings or similar if you are interested.

Cheers.

SevenStar

11-06-2002, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by Empty Fist
Thanks for sharing the clip. Interesting the BJJ guy was just wearing shorts which is not realistic. In a street fight you would be wearing more clothes. The Karate guy was at severe disadvantage on the ground as a result of the BJJ gut just wearing shorts (there is nothing to grab but sweaty skin). I’ll say this, if the Karate guy landed a hit on the BJJ dude’s a vital point you may have seen a different outcome. I studied Judo and JuiJitsu for 3 years and I’ll tell you this, the art does not teach you how to defend yourself adequately against strikes. Bull rushing an opponent can be effective but it also can lead you to be vulnerable.

nothing unrealistic about wearing only shorts - he could be on a beach or at the pool, or even taking out his garbage and get assaulted. all of those things can be done while wearing only shorts. Someone could break into his house, and he may be in shorts. It's not that unrealistic. not having clothes is not a severe disadvantage for the opponent - in shuai chiao, you grab muscles, not necessarily the clothes. with proper trainin, he was at no disadvantage at all.

"if the Karate guy landed a hit on the BJJ dude’s a vital point you may have seen a different outcome."

Did he really have time? he was instantly taken down.

"I studied Judo and JuiJitsu for 3 years and I’ll tell you this, the art does not teach you how to defend yourself adequately against strikes. Bull rushing an opponent can be effective but it also can lead you to be vulnerable."

little secret.....most bjj guys now cross train in a standup grappling style and a striking style. it's not uncommon for the bjj guy to also train in wrestling, judo, etc. boxing, muay thai, etc. many of the bjj guys in brazil also have at least a shodan in judo.

circle_walker

11-06-2002, 02:16 AM

Black Taoist and Maoshan, I think that there is a point to people wanting to know who you beleive, or have learned to be full of b.s. You have placed yourself in some ways to be in positions of authority. When people try to do background checks on a potential teacher this is what they're going to read. Just give your honest opinion. That is what I relied on when I found my teacher. Looking around and finding what other people thought.
Shadow Dragon, I imagine you would have been met with better success if you just asked either of their opinions politely rather than just blasting away, and tearing down. That just looks like your trying to start crap, at least to me.

Shadow Dragon

11-06-2002, 02:42 AM

Circle Walker.

I asked previously nicely and was rewarded with silence, which to me is the same as an open insult. or a slap in the face.
Hence my more direct approach this time.

But I agree with you that so far the opinion of my peers and more experienced people has influenced me in choosing my Instructors.
I choose my current Sifu on a recommendation from a well-known TJQ Person I know.
Actually I lived close to him for nearly 4 years while studying another TJQ style, and I switched after I felt that my than current style and Instructor could take me no further..

And the decision was good if I had joined him 4yrs ago I might not be doing TJQ now.

Peace.

Mizong_Kid

11-06-2002, 05:15 AM

i have been told about internal kung fu, infact a fren of mine tells me things which i find so hard to believe about his teacher.......

if i believe what i hear than surely internal kungfu must be near invincible.....which i dont believe can be so!

tho i have heard about some reknown tong long mantis sifu's who are really something! externally and internally

Ford Prefect

11-06-2002, 07:29 AM

lol @ "you're fake! you're a punk! now come here and I'll prove it."

It's easy as hell to ask to people fly to you to prove themselves to you. Chances are they never will because it's not worth the time or the money. If you are the one with something to prove, if you are the one making accusations, then the responsability of providing evidence and reaching out to people is in your hands.

Spirit Writer

11-06-2002, 07:33 AM

To Moashan:

Sir, I agree with you and I respect your passion. To say that I don't care about the state of Chinese martial arts would be untrue. Of course I do. And, I respect your passion for your chosen art. I also agree with your realistic aproach 100 %.

To Black Toaist: We've had this discusion before. Is it possible for a friend to hop on another friend's computer to post? If you can't understand this concept you might not get the rest of this post.

Again, I agree with your attitude towards training, I really do. However, coming on here and putting everyone else down proves what? Who do you know here? Just because no one wants to go to Brooklyn on their day off (imagine that) means the martial world is afraid of you? Who do you think you are, BlackToaist Mei defeating the Shoalin warrior monks? Get over it, people have school fulls of training partners and friends that they know to train with without the fear of some stranger taking it too far. What do I mean? When I have someone I have someone and find no need to follow through with "that" strike. The fact that you invite someone to play and suggest they bring a first aid kit says it all. Who wants to play with you then?

You do not know anyone here, what they have done, who they have fought. You yourself have cursed Park up and down here: have you gone to fight him yet? Is a three hour train ride too much to make that happen?

Of course your level is higher then most posters here, you are a teacher throwing tournaments. Your behavior should fit your position, your age and experience. If you want the respect you think you deserve, you should carry yourself respectfully.

Keep training hard, keep pushing the martial limits, but please, exercise some respect when dealing with other human beings.

Everyone here is doing the best they can to the level they are interested in. Example: Let's say you own a car. SHould I call you a stupid mother f*cker if the transmission fails and you can't fix it? Well, how can you have a car and not know how to fix it?

Along that same logic, how can some martial artist not be great fighters: they are not interested in it.

Look at your passion. Even at your level, have you signed up for the UFC yet?

TaiChiBob

11-06-2002, 07:41 AM

Greetings..

At issue here is why do people pursue those that talk crap? Time and time again arrogant self-righteous macho types assault Internal styles, issue challenges and so-forth.. Get over it, they feed on the emotion driven responses of others.

Is there a single supreme Art?.. NO.. There is only the individual that assimilates as much valid technique and experience as he or she can. After more than 30 years in the MA world, it is my experience that Internal Martial Arts are valid at most levels, but.. they begin to struggle around the top 10% of those well trained in a variety of arts, especially grappling arts... That being said, the competitor that adds Internals to his or her training can only improve the overall effectivness.. My own training had reached a plateau around age 40, then i was introduced to CIMA and it was like stepping out of the dark into the light.. the additional power alone enhanced my performance by at least 50% and the ability to absorb energy rather than to struggle against it really added a new dimension to full-on sparring..

From my own experience, the external training of 20 years finally matured when supplemented with internal training.. i began to recognize the real potential of MA.. Yin/Yang, Hard/soft, internal/external, complimenting opposites that form the whole.. I do not dis-believe the stories and accounts of great internal masters, at the same time i don't suppose that they had a Gracie or Shamrock challenging them.. MA is evolving, and clinging to any single style only limits your options.. but, to get the best of the styles chosen requires a very dedicated training schedule.. a schedule that few have the time for..

There are a few that come in here and insult styles and masters because they differ philosophically.. Some practicioners seek only to be adequately prepared for the unlikely event they are confronted with a hostile situation, they live their lives in such a manner as to not invite trouble.. they are not agressive, they are not insulting, they are respectful and benevolent.. Too often internalists are ridiculed because they don't train for world-class MMA/NHB competitions.. so be it, they train to avoid those situations, to neutralize before it becomes a problem.. If Frank Shamrock threatens me on the street i will start writing checks until i neutralize the situation ;) ....

In closing, i still find it odd, that people come to forums with the intent of generating ill-will and confrontational scenarios.. Ultimately, i feel that Martial Arts are about self-mastery and living a peaceful life (peaceful in knowing that one is prepared)..

Be well.. (and, don't take the troll bait)..

Walter Joyce

11-06-2002, 07:59 AM

Good post, Bob. I have a friend from china who studies with a cheng ba gua master. This master has practiced ba gua for over 50 years, and still does in his 80s. When my friend asked his master if the masters son would ever master ba gau like his father, the master said no, he thinks too much about fighting.

Fighting is like breathing for martial artists. Both are essential, but like breathing, at a certain point you stop thinking about it and just do it. And like breathing, it is both essential, yet not a big deal.

Does this mean I can fight and win against anyone?

No.

Perhaps the important part of fighting is being willing to fight for what is important, and being willing not to fight if fighting is not the right response.

But then again, I could be wrong.
:cool:

Spirit Writer

11-06-2002, 08:49 AM

I elect TaijiBob as poster of the month for offering valid opinions in a non-offensive manner.:)

Bob, you continue to show all sides of martial arts in a positive, realistic light without once bringing your own skill or level into the conversation.

Cheers!

Muppet

11-06-2002, 10:27 AM

BT & Maoshan, I don't get it.

You guys make the points and I think many people are in agreement that:
1). The IMAs--especially taiji and bagua--is slowly dying as effective fighting arts.

2). The IMAs are viewed as a joke by many circles, especially outside the Chinese community, since so few IMA practitioners spar and can really fight.

3). Genuine instructors willing to teach are far and few between, but fakers are a plenty and unfortunately, well-spoken.

I don't know you guys personally, but you guys seem to have a mission to revive bagua (and indirectly, taiji and hsing i) by calling fakers' bluffs and, assuming you have the goods, showing that the IMA works when push comes to shove.

So far, so good.

But how does it help to revive genuine IMA by not leading earnest people to genuine instructors?

Is wasting years searching and unlearning bs a required badge of dedication?

Learning the IMA is an arduos task, even with the right teacher and instructions, and there are earnest people who end up wasting years learning total crap.

These people are setting themselves to get hurt--look at all the taiji "players" with knee problems--and the ones who think they are learning to defend themselves are up the creek.

They also unwittingly add to the already large numbers of IMA fakers, making the search even harder.

If you guys have some other reasons (e.g., don't want lead 100s of challengers to good instructors who have better things to do), fine.

But if you guys are saying everyone has to wade through BS for years to prove themselves, then what's the point?

blacktaoist

11-06-2002, 10:33 AM

Spirit Writer

You are full of $hit. Don't try to come at me with that Morality of deed bull$hit. Because like I told you I don't give a **** what any of you think about me.

Like I told you I know who the hell you are. How do I know, because one of your classmates told me who the hell you are. Now I'm not going to play games with your ass, If you like I come down to your school and have your classmate be there to prove my claims. You are full of $hit like most of these punks up here hiding.

So kill your righteous man act you are trying to play. You are a punk and the day I meet your ass I could see that $hit. That's why your ass didn't enter the BaGua fighting competition, because you knew all that bull$hit you post is just that Bull****.

I have more respect for these KFO posters like, Count, Andy and Lincon then your hiding ass. No matter what the skill level they came from a far, to test what they learned from their teacher, and they did alright too.

Like I told you don't try to play me for a fool. I don't even know why your sifu deals with your ass.

The fact that you invite someone to play and suggest they bring a first aid kit says it all. Who wants to play with you then?

I don't play little Tai Chi games, It I spar with someone its full-contact. Thats the problem with so-called internal practitioners today, they don't train proper methods. You like to play your little rehearse combat games and think thats real skill training. Like I said, I don't care what you people do, But in my eyes the internal is for training combat, that's how I learned the style, that's how I'm going to keep practicing the methods to the day I die.

Just because no one wants to go to Brooklyn on their day off (imagine that) means the martial world is afraid of you? Who do you think you are, BlackToaist Mei defeating the Shoalin warrior monks?

I can see you just like making $hit up, for one I don't live in Brooklyn.(but you know that already) Show me one post, that I posted on KFO, where I say I'm the best fighter in the world, or I claim to be the best internal fighter out here. Not one person can show me a post like that, because I would never post no bull$hit like that.

But I can show you alot of bull$hit post that I read up here, from individuals like yourself hiding behind fake names, or posting as other individual like you are doing now.

many of you talk of marality of deed, well tell me something, is lying and hiding like a coward behind fake names, posting like another individual part of the martial way.

The bottom line is I know who you are, and your FULL OF $HIT.

circle walker:

Black Taoist and Maoshan, I think that there is a point to people wanting to know who you beleive, or have learned to be full of b.s. You have placed yourself in some ways to be in positions of authority. When people try to do background checks on a potential teacher this is what they're going to read. Just give your honest opinion.

I gave my honest opinion a few times about So-called named brand internal masters , that I know can't apply $hit in a real situation. I feel what's the point of me giving more names, its not going to change anything. You still are going to have these fools still follow them,(and no, I don't mean come follow me.) I'm still going to get attack for my veiwponts and opinions about the so-called internal arts.

Now many up here talk about the Health, and that internal is not just for fighting. True in deed, but many of today so-called internal teachers and practitioners are not even in good health or are they condition. Most of today internal practitioners love to talk about Chi Kung training and many of them can't even hold a posture for more then 5 mins. Most of them postures are bad looking and their fat as hell, and they want to discuss fa-jing and health. Get real.

As for my attitude, I live my life how I feel, not for others. I can careless what people think of me, or how they feel about me and my actions. I 'm not looking for new students, or do I claim to be a righteous man , chinese scholar nut, or health practitioner. Bottom line is, I don't give a fly ****. If you good, you good, I don't care what the skill level or the age, if you up here talking $hit you should be a man and back your $hit up. After all mny up here post like they have some kind of push hands skills or Chi skill , whatever that may be, I like to see it in real action. Is that to much to ask.:D

I only respect these individuals that are not cowards, this hiding behind fake names show just how little girls someone of these individuals are up here. maybe thats why they train internal its a myth art, so what the hell, I made a myth name and talk mad $hit to people. I show these fools my internal skills easy, hiding behind the P.S, is one way to show I have a understanding of the internal...........:D

This has be fun.
BT

BSH

11-06-2002, 11:02 AM

BT:

Are you a Taoist as your name references? I have recently started adjusting my views towards the Tao and how I can better follow it.

Is your goal to become Tao in your actions and your writings?

Empty Fist

11-06-2002, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by SevenStar

nothing unrealistic about wearing only shorts - he could be on a beach or at the pool, or even taking out his garbage and get assaulted. all of those things can be done while wearing only shorts. Someone could break into his house, and he may be in shorts. It's not that unrealistic. not having clothes is not a severe disadvantage for the opponent - in shuai chiao, you grab muscles, not necessarily the clothes. with proper trainin, he was at no disadvantage at all.

"if the Karate guy landed a hit on the BJJ dude’s a vital point you may have seen a different outcome."

Did he really have time? he was instantly taken down.

"I studied Judo and JuiJitsu for 3 years and I’ll tell you this, the art does not teach you how to defend yourself adequately against strikes. Bull rushing an opponent can be effective but it also can lead you to be vulnerable."

little secret.....most bjj guys now cross train in a standup grappling style and a striking style. it's not uncommon for the bjj guy to also train in wrestling, judo, etc. boxing, muay thai, etc. many of the bjj guys in brazil also have at least a shodan in judo.
nothing unrealistic about wearing only shorts - he could be on a beach or at the pool, or even taking out his garbage and get assaulted. all of those things can be done while wearing only shorts. Someone could break into his house, and he may be in shorts. It's not that unrealistic. not having clothes is not a severe disadvantage for the opponent - in shuai chiao, you grab muscles, not necessarily the clothes. with proper trainin, he was at no disadvantage at all.

I disagree. Bottom line it is easier to grab clothes vs grabbing skin. That’s why the BBJ guy was only wearing shorts. Why didn’t he wear a gi? Because he wanted to be at an advantage. Kudos for him thinking.

"if the Karate guy landed a hit on the BJJ dude’s a vital point you may have seen a different outcome."

Did he really have time? he was instantly taken down.

Take out the eyes.

"I studied Judo and JuiJitsu for 3 years and I’ll tell you this, the art does not teach you how to defend yourself adequately against strikes. Bull rushing an opponent can be effective but it also can lead you to be vulnerable."

little secret.....most bjj guys now cross train in a standup grappling style and a striking style. it's not uncommon for the bjj guy to also train in wrestling, judo, etc. boxing, muay thai, etc. many of the bjj guys in brazil also have at least a shodan in judo.

You mention cross training. Any fighter that cross trains in other martial arts will be a better fighter. That’s why Bruce Lee invented Jeet Kune Do. His art was constantly evolving taking the best of and martial arts and wrapping into one form. The lesson from Bruce, always keep an open mind to learning. Bottom line…any martial artist is at a great disadvantage if they don’t know ground techniques.

blacktaoist

11-06-2002, 11:41 AM

For one I'm of African Descent, So no, I not a Chinese Taoist, or do I claim to be one. I am a black man that practice a Chinese martial art. So I put the word BLACK, for this word puts my african culture first, the word taoists is to show my respect for the Chinese Culture. For it is their fighting methods That I'm practicing.

[QUOTE]Is your goal to become Tao in your actions and your writings?[/QUOTE/]

I don't seek anything but what is. I live my life for the NOW.

The Tao is an empty vessel, it is used, but never filled. Hidden deep but ever present.

Peace
BT

Ray Pina

11-06-2002, 11:52 AM

Phantom Menace

11-06-2002, 12:50 PM

BT and Moashan

How long have you been practicing your respective arts?

I understand and agree with the majority of what you're saying, but I don't think you ever fought any quality BJJ or submission grappling or vale tudo fighter. All your challenges seem to be directed to the internal martial artist.

How about fighting a bjj, submission grappler, or vale tudo fighter with the same amount of training years. How about it? I think what happened to the mcdojo guys that you make fun of will happen to you. Somebody will tape it and post it on the mcdojo site for everyone to see.

You claim you've fought all these "people". Who are these mystery victims of the blacktaoist fighting prowess? Do you have tapes of these fights?

blacktaoist

11-06-2002, 01:29 PM

You've been addressing a good friend of mine this entire thread. He has just recovered from a terminal illness from which he lost a lot of weight and could barely carry himself around. Thank God he has recovered and is now working on regaining his motor skills -- he caught his first wave since getting better two months ago.

I know who I been addressing From day one. So kill the bull$hit. You are going around post as two individuals. And I don't need to ask your classmate $hit, when he already told me of his own fee will that you was post up here under Spirit Writer. Now out of no where the great EvolutionFist shows up, when in fact spiritwriter and Evolutionfist are the same. Your punk ass. Bottom line your ful of $hit.

As the post above states, I actually agree with all your "beefs" about martial arts. But, unlike yourself I find no need to push others down to raise myself. You are you, and I am me. No judgement there.

I don't put anyone down, so what the hell are you talking about. My statements are mosting dealing with combat, and if the person viewpoints are Bull$hit dealing with fighting then I will givemy criticism and makemy points, just have many up here have done with me. So kill the Bull$hit. If I wanted to raise myself I get a woman for that job. As for Judement, I'm no God, to jude any man, But I be more then willing to test your ass Why don't you ask your........You just don't know. I use to put many So-called Chinese internal teachers on their candy ass in China town area. Why.? Because I'm not looking to learn any bull$hit. And I would test your ass to the best of my skill level, Its not about being the best, its about seeking truth. But yet, you fools still don't understand that!!

Like I said. I am training, and we will cross hands before your next tournament -- I give you my word on that again. Be patient.

When you first post up here on KFO you claim you had all these years in mantis boxing and fighting, The first beef I had with you is, because you was making all these claims of martial skills, so when it came time to test you out on these claims, you was nowhere to be find at your sifu school. Man you are all talk. I don't care if you practice for ten years, you never catch up to me.(I'm always training) I have people that I train for less then a year, that I know can handle your ass easy, and I'm willing to come down to your sifu school with them to prove it.

But no matter , you may be fooling everybody on KFO with your humility and good will act. But your not fooling me at all, and whn I have time, I'm coming to your sifu school to see your ass on the bull$hit game you are trying to play. Because like I said you can't tell me $hit, because your classmate didn't have to tell me anything. so I see no reason for him to lie.

But we see who is telling the truth when I get down there.

See you soon spiritwriter/ Evolutionfist/both+ only one person =Raymond Pina JR.

People just can't be themself.

blacktaoist

11-06-2002, 01:50 PM

Phantom Menace

I'm not hiding and I'm easy to find, I don't care what style a person do, just show up. a bjj, submission grappler, or vale tudo fighter whatever just show up. I will compare skills with anyone and I have train with and fought them kind of martial artist and never had a problem with them.

Also I never made fun of anybody so, why are you making $hit up. Show a post by me were I had made fun of these mcdojo guys, If and thing I respect what they do.(FIGHT) Are you up here trying to start some $hit also?

I have no problem with anyone up here, But I also willing to compare skills with people , no matter the style.

Like I said all you have to do is pay me a visit, and I will not be just walking circle when we compare skills or will it be easy to take me to the ground.:D But this is all just talk, Why don't you come and find out.

blacktaoist

11-06-2002, 02:16 PM

Phantom Menace

Do you think that was a quality Kung Fu Figher that fought. I think not. I know street fighters in my community that could have did a hell of a better job.

What is Quality to you? To me fighting is fighting, all that style bull$hit gos out the window when fighting. what matters if your combat method is practical and you can adapt to the situation.

So your Thinking of me easy getting beat by one of them BJJ guys is wrong. I never end up on the ground easy like that poor Kung Fu guy did in that movie clip. Because I would have adapt to the situation with the right offensive and defensive techniues. And one rule in the internal is keep both feet on the ground with in a combat. Trying to take a man out in my first open move,with a high forward front kick in a real fight is not my style.

Ray Pina

11-06-2002, 03:51 PM

This is growing quite tiring, so I'll make this quick.

1) I was "no where to be found" because I told you I train on Tues. and Fri. night. You visited my teacher on an afternoon that was neither a Tues. or Fri.

2) If I see David twice a month it is a lot. He trains Ba Gua, I train something else. Believe who/what you will.

3) I have studied S. Mantis and it was an important stop for me. It was the first training I undergone that involved ONLY fighting -- every class headgear and gloves, that's it. It taught me how to judge techniques realistically. Taught me a lot about momentum and use of weight.

4) I have found my martial truth. I have tons to learn, but I am not looking any longer. I have found what I have been looking for. Do not agree, that is fine, but as a martial artist understand what that means to me.

5) Lastly, understanding the significance of (4), know that I do not want to involve my training brothers (who I respect and care for) or the school. My master, as you know, has long taken care of business on his own.

I am not a disciple and need a bit more time; I see no weakness in stating such. When I am ready, I'll contact you through David. I suspect it should be sometime in the Spring.

Be well. Train hard.
Ray Pina

Phantom Menace

11-06-2002, 04:47 PM

BT,

You will get taken down. You will be submitted. You will flop around, get armbarred or choked out like everyone else that has fought with BJJ, submission grappler or a vale tudo guy. You will go down.

I don't want to judge those guys getting beat in the mcdojo site. They didn't do well, that's it. I respect them for even fighting. You're fight with a high level grappler will look the same.

It doesn't matter what your style is or what plans you have you will get taken down and eventually submitted, knocked out or broken. It's one thing to challenge other internal martial artist who don't fight or spar much. It's another thing to challenge and fight martial artist known for fighting.

I agree with most of what you say about IMA, but you sound more like you're just bullying other internal martial artist.

blacktaoist

11-06-2002, 05:22 PM

I am not a disciple and need a bit more time; I see no weakness in stating such. When I am ready, I'll contact you through David. I suspect it should be sometime in the Spring.

I don't need to hear your bull$hit. I was at the BaGua tournament, you was face to face with me, all you had to do is step to me. But you knew what time it was. (your not that dumb) Whenever you ready Bring it, Because it be a cold day in hell, before you beat my ass. I don't care what you think your learning. Like I said before I have students that can easy handle your ass with less years then yourself.

1) I was "no where to be found" because I told you I train on Tues. and Fri. night. You visited my teacher on an afternoon that was neither a Tues. or Fri.

You knew I was coming thats why your ass was not there. You even had your sifu call my home. Man don't let me have to tell the whole story how $hit went down at your school on KFO. Like I said you are all talk and playing internet games. I 'm willing to back my $hit up that day. But I can't say the same for your ass.

5) Lastly, understanding the significance of (4), know that I do not want to involve my training brothers (who I respect and care for) or the school. My master, as you know, has long taken care of business on his own.

This have nothing to do with your training brothers, only you and one of your classmates. And I will becoming down to your sifu school to get to the bottom of this. Because I see no reason why your classmate would lie on you about posting up on KFO as two people.

By the way, I never said who the classmate that told me you was posting as two people was, But you just did:

2) If I see David twice a month it is a lot. He trains Ba Gua, I train something else. Believe who/what you will.

You are just full of BUll$hit and a lier.

The end of Your quote post replys should be:
Be yourself and post as yourself.
See you soon , I don't have time for the games.

blacktaoist

11-06-2002, 05:55 PM

Phantom Menace I have no beef with you, Think what you want. its your right, you don't see me getting upset about it. If you ever fight with a well train internal martial artist, a grappler will be be put out for the count. Try fighting a internal practitioner who have develop their root and know how to hit with whole body power and can feel your every movemovent when in contact with you. And I'm not talking about Chi, I'm talking about real Kung Fu skill. That guy on the tape had nothing.( NO KUNG FU WHAT SO EVER)Truth is truth.

As for me bullying other internal martial artists are you for real man. This is a talk forum, I only discuss my veiwpoints about combat, nothing more, nothing less. I can't help it if my internal martial art brothers get upset at my veiws.

I tell you you guys up here are funny. But thats why I keep coming up here having my fun.

maoshan

11-06-2002, 06:00 PM

You know,
There is just too much crap to answer to here but I don't have the time, so i'll keep it simple.

1. I respect all fighters regardless of style.

2. my concern is with the internal arts as it being taught.

3. As for giving the names of individual teachers. My brother made the point but I'm going to add this,
Just as when we mentioned Park and all the BS that came out of that, What would happen if we gave ya'll 20 names? what would happen? Now you got a hundred people losing thier minds because One of us destroyed thier delusion. A few of parks people tried to jump BT because they could not handle it. Why set our selves up for even more $hit. Few people have the honor that was had in the past. I mean just 20yrs ago if you got beat you either came back and tried again or handled it. Today they'll shoot you. We should do that? for what?
The point was to make the people aware to not be so gulliable.
Come on I searched continuously over a period 26yrs found fakes and the real thing. I was lucky. I found more real than fake.
You have to ask yourself as well, Is this right? Is this what i've read about? or close to it? It is not for use to do your foot work for you. In fact about a year ago or so, I was asked who I thought was good and I supplied a list On KFO of about maybe 20 people. The question is who didn't I mention. which means nothing anyway because I don't know everybody.
Again, It's just to be aware.

Phantom Menace

33yrs total, 22 in the Internal.

(All your challenges seem to be directed to the internal martial artist)

Because I want the standard to be raised. The internal is the joke of the martial arts world in terms of self-defence. The only way to get better is to use it (which most can't) or stay traped in the delusion.

Who did I make fun of? I was making a point about lack of skill and what made him think that he had enough skill to put $5000
on the line?
Your making things up.

But even more to the point. the style makes no differance. either you can fight or you can't. and No I most assuredly would not look like that poor guy who got suckered out of his money.

I could hit all of you with something, but i'm really beginning to see what the masters keep telling us. We have no aurguments amonst the instructors at large. if they do, it's personal but most of you guys aurgue for the hell of it. No one addresses the issue.
Forget the charecter, Is the point valid? Forget the expression, Is it true? Yes we are hardcore but we're fighters and make points not in the most politically correct way so thats the excuse not to address the issue? Bull$hit!
I'm Out.

Shadow Dragon

11-06-2002, 06:13 PM

Maoshan.

I understand what your gripe is and what you are saying.

One problem though, and that is where you and BT will always run into a wall.

Many of the Guys like Park are recognised and published MA Instructors.

Most People in the IMA scene will look toward the published material and known Masters to form their opinions about what MA should be.
In short you are going up against the peoples perception of what MA should be.
That is a loosing battle unless you can show concise proof of your statements/claims and be willing to make those public (Magazines, Books,etc) and let them be examined/tested/evaluated by others.

I can try to arrange a meeting with the Taiki-Ken people over here for BT when he comes over.
Those Guys are considered very good and tough IMA fighters over here.

Cheers.

Phantom Menace

11-06-2002, 06:30 PM

BT and Moashan,

I actually like you guys. I say the same thing to other internal guys, but I'm just not as abrasive and threatening, sometimes.

What I'm telling you guys is that you're pointing out this instance of this poor sansoo guy and saying he got beaten because he has no skill. I don't think you can judge a person's skill by watching one tape of his defeat. You don't know how good that BJJ guy is.

I like your concerns about internalist not having fighting skills. Sure I've made the same observations and comments and got a whole bunch of people hating me too. They hate me for saying what they don't want to hear because they want to live in their little kung fu fantasy world. People here blast you guys for the same reason. You're bursting their martial arts fantasy bubble.

What I'm saying is that perhaps you guys are also guilty of living in a martial arts fantasy bubble. Your fate against a BJJ, submission grappler or a vale tudo fighter with half the years of experience that you guys have will not be any different than any of these other kung fu guys. It just depends on who you end up tangling with.

Against fairy bunny internal martial artist, you guys might be the ultimate fighter. In the world of mixed martial arts you're just another slug. Don't confuse the reality of the real world to the reality of the world your created in your mind.

Please, don't take offense, I think you guys are great. I just think you shouldn't judge other people's kung fu skill unless you've put yourself in the same situation and have the video to prove it. That's why I suggest that you fight some grappler of good repute. Video tape it and post it on the internet. Fight a BJJ black belt (that means about 10-12 years of training, less than half of Moashan's) or an amateur cage fighter. I'm sure guys who fight in the King of the Cage, UFC, Kage Kombat or similar venues will accomodate you. Will you put $5000 on the line to prove your skills?

We all want to see the "real kung fu skills that you claim to know.

Thanks, no malice was intended in writing this post. Don't hate me for saying what you need to hear. Peace.

blacktaoist

11-06-2002, 09:32 PM

Phantom Menace

I don't hate you, Why should I. You never did anything to me. But I'm not puting up $5000 to fight anyone. Now if a Bjj practitioner put $5000 on the line to fight them. I be more then willing to compare skills with them for their own money.

What I'm telling you guys is that you're pointing out this instance of this poor sansoo guy and saying he got beaten because he has no skill.

I have over 500 tapes of all kinds of fighting. From boxing, king of the cage, Bjj matchers, pride, UFC. All I do is train with other martial artists and veiw tapes, work, visit other countrys to train with other martial artist. And after looking at that movie clip of that poor Kung fu guy, any trained individual can see that Kung Fu guy was low level. Like I said I know people in my community that can fight better then that, and they don't even know martial arts.

The bottom line is I train,spar, and fought all kinds of people ground fighting is nothing new to me , I trained in boxing and Judo for years as a kid, before I even come to train in the internal martial arts. So I have knowledge of ground work, chokes and locks.

And I still train them and teach them. ground fighting is only a problem to internal martial artist that don't have knowledge of their ways of attacking, offensive and defensive methods. And that kung fu guy didn't have a clue, how sad.

Phantom Menace I a open minded individual , and if we ever meet in this life time, you see I not just talking Bull$hit I love to compare skills. I don't care what style a person do, standing or ground fighting , I can adapt to both and I teach my students the same.

And I'm sorry, but that guy was low level, and he did have any knowledge of wrestling,or ground defense. He was to easy preay for anyone that had some kind of ground fighting background. $hit I have friends that train in judo for only a few years, That I know can take that guy out.

Phantom Menace, if anyone may be living in a martial arts fantasy bubble, I have to say its you. If you think that guy had some kind of real Kung Fu skill, or any fighting skill at all.

Tell you what, I have a very good friend that trained with a tai chi master in singapore, named Lau Kim Hong, my friend now lives in China town new york, if you are ever in New York, let me know, I love to see you try that ground $hit on him. The olny reason I welcome you to come, is because I think you are real with your $hit, then these punks up here.

Every ground fighter That I take to meet my friend can 't do $hit with him. Know I never like tai Chi to much , but after seeing my friend in action, I had to learn his push hands method from him. And I know a lot of push hands players that also can do very well against ground fighters and Bjj players. They no real big deal to most internal practitiuoners that train their push hands and Tai Chi methods for combat. Real Internal martial art Fighters.

To deal with your kind of people, its all about a internal practitioner knowing the substantial and insubstantial in action.

Peace
BT

Don't get mad, I'm just having Fun. :D

maoshan

11-07-2002, 12:40 AM

Yo, that was hot.

Phantom Menace

Why would I do that?
Fighters, fight to fight. Do you understand?
But if they want to, I'm game.

Do you really think that I have that kind of tunnel vision that I've only stayed within the confines of Ba-Gua with my fighting?
Yo, I'll just say this, I trained on the ground for a very long time and I'm also a Gymnast. You have to understand the time that it was, There was much more Karate than kung fu Practitioners.
In those days , Kung Fu got little respect, and all the Karate guys wanted to fight us. So trust me I've had more than a little experiance with various styles.
Besides, you have to fight other styles. how do you know if your good? how do you test your self? I've trained and fought too hard ,too long to go out like that guy did.
I'm not the best, but That's what I strive to be.
The only way I'll get there is by being true to my self.
And I'll tell you this, ( a word to the wise) for all you that say and feel that we know everything,
I know nothing, but most you guys know even less.

Yes, I can see if an individual can fight or not on tape. and in truth, can somebody tell me the differance between being there and watching it on the TV? I mean if your right there, you can't get but so close to see what's going on. at home you get close ups. That whole thought has always puzzled me. Boxers do it constantly to understand thier opponent. but again I'm talking about fighters. If you can't see it ,you must not be.

You say, as far as dealing with the mixed world of MA.
I say, I deal with the WORLD of Martial arts. True martial artist develop either technique(s) or a skill(s) or both. Based on a firm foundation.
Eclectic styles rarly ( if at all) impart a true and strong foundation.
Against Someone that's truly trained in the internal, Grapplers have got a real problem. besides my Qinna has keep all grapplers off me. At this I'm good, But that's Bull$hit! I want a single technique. No matter what tec I use, the fight is over. So trust me, I fight hard because I have a goal.
I don't need to go out and find anyone to prove anything for the public. I meet people as I go through life, and we compare through sparring , form, and concepts. next.
If your in my circle you get my thoughts on the topic. No big deal.

And lastly
Prove for who? make a tape? Post it?
(this does not apply to every one out there, But most)
Why? for a bunch of people who couldn't take true training sustained over a period of 100 days anyway? I will not be Entertainment.
Look, it's like this in a nutshell,
Neither one of us claimed to be the end all be all.
It's all about the quality that's being presented to represent the Internal.
In order to learn martial Arts you have to be willing to make great sacrifice. In obtaining a teacher as well as training. In order to be good in the internal takes a hell of a lot of desire. You have to want it. You just can't do the moves and wait for the mythical supernatural Qi to make you able to do the fantastic.
It takes considerable effort to learn to merge the Body, heart, mind and spirit into one, and move that way.
These personal opinions about our percieved charectors has nothing to do with the points being made.

I'm not looking for anyone to agree with me, Just check it out for yourselves with an honest, open mind.

Maoshan

SSgungfu

11-07-2002, 01:11 AM

WHAT IS THIS JUNK? ALL I SEE HERE ARE 2 BLACK PEOPLE AND A CHINESE GUY. WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MAKE ME THINK?

COME NEAR ME AND ILL KILL YOU. THATS MY MARTIAL LAW. BALANCE OF PEACE AND POWER, THATS MY MARTIAL STATUS QUO. **** ALL YALL

Crimson Phoenix

11-07-2002, 04:13 AM

It reminds me of that story...
there was a shrink who had a neighbor who, everytime their path crossed, would curse and cuss and spit on him...all the time, it never failed, and the shrink wouldd just pass by and say nothing. One day, this neighbor moved out, to another city...the doorman of the building, aware like everyone of what was going on with this neighbour, then asked the shrink "hey, mister, you must be pretty relieved and happy he's gone"...the shrink just said "well, it doesn't really matter...HE was the one with a problem".

I shouldn't explain you what I mean by that, but since the story could be taken the exact opposite way of what it means, I will still do: MANY people are ruffed up byt BT's ways...many are irritated, feel insulted, whatever. But paradoxically, in my story he is not the neighbour, he is the shrink...if you do not like his ways and feel insulted and ruffed up right away when reading his words, then surely YOU are the ones with the problems...not him...

Lots of people here are really fast to talk about wude or self-development through MA, yet I see seldom put in in application.
What do I mean by that? Well, either you are clear and honest with your practice, in which case you shoudln't even feel a tingling when reading BT's words, either you doubt. And if you doubt there's a reason...and it's YOU, only YOU that can do something about it. This is what is also meant by "better light a candle, than curse the darkness". If you feel so much BT is wrong, prove it. Or at least ignore it and don't spend time arguing endlessly, as it won't change anything to his practice or to yours, and it won't change what will happen when your azz is in real danger...

You got to admit the man is straightforward. More than anyone here. And he's willing to backup his claims. OK, OK, he might not be very good in the diplomatic field, but as honest martial artists you shouldn't need everything to be sugar-coated like that. Because truth hurst sometimes. Truth is not always beautiful to look at, but it's the eye's fault, not the Truth's.

I enjoy reading BT...I feel perfectly secure with my own practice, which means first and foremost that I know where I suck, where I fail, and where I'm good at...I could be either depressed about my limitations (Hell yeah LOL), and let my ego find some excuses and lame justifications (quite comforting for the spirit, but useless when the moment of Truth ie survival, arrives), or I could just realize "OK, you know what lacks, now quit whining and do something about it". If BT tells me (OK, Im trying for a good imitation, but it's going to be lame LOL) "Yo, Phoenix, you started bagua 2 years ago, you can't fight with none of your bagua, yet you keep bull$hiting me about this and that, and about how your teacher is the shi@t, have you tried his hands??" Will I feel insulted? No...I know **** well when I fight my external does come out, but not my bagua. I know quite well I would be very lame trying to fight the bagua way. I don't even know if my teacher can fight, I haven't tested him or seen him being tested. so why feel insulted? I just believe, train, and get what I'm given. That is as far as it goes.
In other words, I know myself as a fighter, and sometimes I win, often I lose...I'm still alive so I guess there are things I do well, or I'm lucky maybe...but instead of jusst whining and bi@tching, I know what to do: move my azz and do something about it. I won't curse the darkness, but will instead spend my time and energy trying to find a match to light that dayam candle.

SORRY everyone if I sounded like a lesson giver. it wasn't my intention at all. Nor was it my intention to criticize or attack anyone in particular. It was just a rant that came out like that after reading that topic. A rant that shows how unenlightened I am. A guy trying to help the others too much reveal how shallow he is...coming with these wisdom quotes, I revealed how un-wise I am. Evolution and Truth are just like MA: you can have the best teacher in the world, he just can't do what you need to do in your place.
SORRY again everyone for that waste of time of a rant.

Shadow Dragon

11-07-2002, 04:33 AM

Crimson Phoenix.

Nice post and good points made.

[Rant On]
Personally, I think that BT and Maoshan make a very valid point.
I simply don't like the way they come across and some of their arguments for the way they do things.
Sorry, it smacks too much of Troll tactics I seen here and on many other boards.

I feel that they got some skill and feel strongly about their agenda, but don't believe that their skill is as high as they make it out to be nor that their understanding is that good.

Naturally I might be wrong, but from what I read here it sounds like so many other Guys on the Net pushing their agenda.
I know where I stand in relation to MA, fighting and IMA.
I also know the following:

"That anybody can beat anybody else on their good day"

MA does not make fighters, but it makes existing fighter into better fighters.
For the majority of people MA training might give them a slight advantage in a confrontation.

How do I feel about the modern MA scene.
MA is evolving to conform to todays requirements and needs
Today we live in a safer society than ever in human History.
Yes, MA 60yrs ago were better fighters but than the times were different., maybe in another 60yrs we need fighters of the same caliber again and they will be there.

In order for MA to survive they have to conform to the needs of the time, what was once discovered can be discovered again by the right people.

"Those who don't know talk, those who know don't talk."

{Rant Off}

Cheers

Mizong_Kid

11-07-2002, 06:05 AM

hhhhmmmm

so much anger here!

CD Lee

11-07-2002, 09:01 AM

Maoshan said:

It doesn’t make any sense at all. This guy put up $5000, as the story relates, to fight a BJJ practitioner. Now he did have heart, I’ll give him that, but the rest falls on his teacher. Who else?
Who sets the standard by which you follow? Your teacher.
Who do you question about all things martial? Your teacher.
That’s the way it supposed to be.

BlackTaoist said:

This show me just how dumb some people are, It not about asking your teacher $hit, if your teacher is teaching you fake $hit. Bottom line is, most of you punks can't apply your $hit in a real situation, like always you try to go around the issue of the discussion.

You two guys are confusing me. BT your ENTIRE argument is based on the ability to somehow judge your teachers internal fighting skills. This is difficult. Your whole tirade has nothing to do with internal arts, but the whole of any martial art system, which all have the same problems you mention constantly.

I would ask my teacher as Maoshan suggests of all things martial. However, as BT suggests, he might be teaching me fake sh!t, in which case I can only find out by fighting him unreahearsed to see if I can kick his @ss. However, I could actually suck quite a bit more than I think and still get my ass kicked even though he skill level 'could' be lower than I think. In which case, I make the foolhardy conclusion that he beat me due to his superior internal skill.

As the bad guy in Kung Pow enter the fist said, "Well, CRAP MAN!"
:D

blacktaoist

11-07-2002, 09:59 AM

Shadow Dragon

I feel that they got some skill and feel strongly about their agenda, but don't believe that their skill is as high as they make it out to be nor that their understanding is that good.

I Already told you I don't care what you think. And I don't have a agenda, not up here on KFO. I'm not looking for students up here, I post up here when I feel like posting something.

Anyway when I'm in Japan, we can compare skills and we can see just how much understanding you have in apply your $hit unrehearse. No fix step Bull$hit The hell with the talking, Because I believe you be just like the rest of these KFO I have encounter, real easy to handle.

CD Lee:

as BT suggests, he might be teaching me fake sh!t, in which case I can only find out by fighting him unreahearsed to see if I can kick his @ss. However, I could actually suck quite a bit more than I think and still get my ass kicked even though he skill level 'could' be lower than I think. In which case, I make the foolhardy conclusion that he beat me due to his superior internal skill.

My point is every teacher I learn from I test their martial art skills. If I beat them, I move on. What's the use learning from a teacher that can't utilize their skills in a unrehearse freestyle fighting situation. Man, I don't have time for the games Cd Lee you are not dumb. so stop acting like you are.

You guys are to funny up here.

blacktaoist

11-07-2002, 10:38 AM

Crimson Phoenix
your post was right on the money. I feel these P.C. punks get upset because they know deep down within themself, their truly punks. I told these dumb P.C, punks that I'm just posting my veiw points about martial art as an individual, nothing more, nothing less.

But like always P.C. punks love to make $hit up, and claim I made statements saying I'm the best and other Bull$hit they love to come up with. But what's real funny not one of these P.C. punks will say the bull$hit in my face.

Now I may talk $hit. But one thing for sure, I'm not hiding behind a P.C. like a punk, or I'm I posting as two individuals on KFO, talking like a Chinese scholar, and skilled expert. Most of these P.C. punks live right here in the New York area. But they posting like their from other state or even a country. Now that's a true punk ass.

I told you, these guys are to funny for me to take for real. That's why I 'm having my fun up here.

CD Lee

11-07-2002, 11:05 AM

BT said:

Man, I don't have time for the games Cd Lee you are not dumb. so stop acting like you are.

OK fair enough. Your right, I'm not dumb but I am also demonstrating a point. Your way of looking at this whole affair is very Yang and little Yin. First, you know I like your stuff so lets get that straight.

You state that Kung Fu is not about philosophy or other aspects other than just the martial and that is simply untrue and out of balance to begin with. You know well that the internals that we study are formed to a large degree on Taoist teachings and understandings. I am not saying it is religion or anything like that, but there is some balance. You can say it is only about fighting, but it does not make it true. This is why your mantra is not well accepted by many. What you say is true, just not the whole truth. There is a big difference.

Now, what you hate is crappy Kung Fu. And you should. What makes crappy Kung Fu are many different things. Some schools do not focus enough on the martial, probably because they can't. Your great implication is that THE 'reason' so many kung fu schools are crap is because they think about philosophy and forms and never fight or spar. Daoist principles do not make them bad fighters, not fighting makes them bad fighters. A great fighter than sucks at teaching, makes bad fighters.

Also, using your method to test a Sifu is not practical for a beginner. This makes it very difficult for newer practitioners to follow your advice. It sounds great, but is hard to pull off for most people in reality. Also a great sifu can be older than 60, and I 'aint fighting an old man period. His students may or may not be a good measure, because they get skilled and usually move, then you have the new batch which may suck for quite a while. This happens.

As for the San Soo clip, I cannot believe you pulled that old thing out. We have all been over that clip. They guy is practically a kick boxer and not good. And, he does fight in San Soo, but he sucked badly. His hands were down, he was square to the opponent. How the hell could he even get off any powerful technique like that???? I hope to God he could not actually win a San Soo fight that same way. He is the last example I would use to rant about internal methods with.

One point that I would like to bring up once again, is that even external schools by the droves, fight and spar, and still can't fight well. A few can, most can't.

Phantom Menace

11-07-2002, 11:56 AM

BT and Moashan,

I still think you should fight a high level BJJ, submission or vale tudo fighter as I suggested.

CD Lee

11-07-2002, 12:21 PM

Lets say Phantom is right...who knows. But it did shock me to find that some guy put up 5000.00 to fight a BJJ guy??? What is that all about?

I thought these BJJ dudes and grapplers are all too eager to choke us Kung Fu dudes out. Why would they require 5K to fight a kung fu guy, especially one like that clip had?

So if BT wanted to fight a decent or even good BJJ player, do you think he would actually have to bone up 5K or whatever? That alone means I would never fight one. I say if you must fight one, go to the bar and start a fight with one. It is free and you can have a drink afterwards.

count

11-07-2002, 12:26 PM

what's up? I haven't had time to post lately but I wanted to contribute to the many myths you guys have been exploding here. First I have to agree with CD Lee. Maoshan, I'm sure you could have made your point without digging up an old clip of a "kung fu san soo" guy with no skills. But hey, their still debating over fights from more than 50 years ago as examples of internal martial arts on the other forums. I have to ask again if you are considering how martial arts is marketed in the first place? If you go by statistics, there are probably more than 10 million people in this country alone at a martial arts school of one kind or another. Yes, it's probably a trillion dollar industry worldwide. How many students do you think would keep coming back to class if they got their a$$es kicked every other day? That kind of training is useful to some, necessary to others but for most of the martial artist on the planet, they will never get in a real fight in the first place. No, I agree with you but I must say you aren't going to convert too many people posting on the internet. Keep teaching and putting on those tournaments and you'll find a few people who are serious enough. And when the winter gets too cold for you in NY come on out here for a visit. Maybe "Phantom Menace" can grapple your a$$ while your here.;)

PS: Any statistics given are from internet polls and are not scientific.

Mojo

11-07-2002, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by CD Lee
Lets say Phantom is right...who knows. But it did shock me to find that some guy put up 5000.00 to fight a BJJ guy??? What is that all about?

I thought these BJJ dudes and grapplers are all too eager to choke us Kung Fu dudes out. Why would they require 5K to fight a kung fu guy, especially one like that clip had?

CD
It was the KF San Soo guy who made a challenge to any BJJ guy who wanted to step up, that he would put up 5000$ winner take all.
BJJ guys don't require money to fight gung fu guys, but since the offer was made, John Marsh, proffesional MMA fighter, took the easy money.

By the way, our old friend Knifefighter can be seen in a portion of that video.

Muppet

11-07-2002, 01:30 PM

I would ask my teacher as Maoshan suggests of all things martial. However, as BT suggests, he might be teaching me fake sh!t, in which case I can only find out by fighting him unreahearsed to see if I can kick his @ss. However, I could actually suck quite a bit more than I think and still get my ass kicked even though he skill level 'could' be lower than I think. In which case, I make the foolhardy conclusion that he beat me due to his superior internal skill.

If you need to go this route, the solution to this is easy: Get yourself in shape while training in one or two well-known fighting style like boxing, muay thai, wrestling, bjj/judo, etc. for a couple of years.

Then spend a year or so sparring in a MMA club (if you're not in one already) to balance yourself out, get pointers, and get a taste of sparring from different people and styles.

At this point, if you've practiced dilligently, you should probably be a better fighter than most of the people you meet out there, not to mention in good shape.

Ask the teacher to a match. If he gets his ass whupped, then you know that the teacher doesn't have anything to offer.

If he holds his own or kicks your ass--especially if he's a lot older--then you know the guy has something.

Whether or not he'll actually teach it to you is a different matter. :(

Phantom Menace

11-07-2002, 02:08 PM

Count,

I'm not interested in grappling anyone's a$$. I'm not into that. Silly monkey. :D

BT,

Count doesn't speak for me. I'm not interested in grappling you a$$, but I will spar/roll with you. You're welcome to visit if you're ever in Ca. :)

blacktaoist

11-07-2002, 03:52 PM

Yo, this issue is getting boring. we all have our veiwpoints on what we think martial arts should be like. All I'm doing is posting my veiws nothing more, nothing less. And I still stand by my opinions,and I'm willing to back them up to the best of my skill level.

C.D. Lee

Kung fu in my opinion is about a individual struggle with the real world, internally and externally with physical aggression, mind, body, and spirt. philosophy is about developing your own ideas from an observation of life and living life. Also interacting with other people in life. Philosoply is not just about reading other Taoist individuals interpretation of war and life. This can only give us an idea of these individuals thoughts during that older generation.

As time change, people change. as well thoughts and techniques. Now I don't have anything against philosophy, but for me philosophy is about living life for yourself not following others . Take what is practical and discard what is Bull$hit.

So if BT wanted to fight a decent or even good BJJ player, do you think he would actually have to bone up 5K or whatever? That alone means I would never fight one. I say if you must fight one, go to the bar and start a fight with one. It is free and you can have a drink afterwards.

C.D. Lee my occupation is security, I sometimes work at a lot of nightclubs(hip-Hop) for extra money in the New York City area, so I had my share of bar fights and even dance floor fights were $hit gets outrageous to the pont where I have to hurt a person real bad.

I just think many people up here never been in these kinds of situations, I have, and I have seen people get beat down. No one on one fight, one man fighting against many MEN!! This is the $hit I see most of the time and the $hit I have to look out for when dong my Job.

So when I see these bull$hit posters, talking about so-called Chi Skills and the internal is not about fighting, well I just...LOL because I know these kinds of people don't know $hit about the real world fighting.

But in the end of all my thoughts, to tell you the truth I'm not mad at anyone up here, Because as I said before we all have our own veiwpoints about the internal martial arts. I just feel there are a hell of a lot of individuals up here that don't train like they claim.

Count what's up.

Now what do it matter if its a old movie clip. Truth is truth. And there is no debating that $hit. Maoshan points is well genuine and valid, theres no getting around that $hgat no matter how you look at it.The guy claim Kung Fu (not kickboxing) And I don't care if it was internal or external the man claim KUNG FU, and he got beat down, that's all to it.

Is this not a martial art discussion forum here. What's up a individual can't put footage of a martial art match to make a valid point. Don't hate the game , hate the player. Sometimes you win in the martial art game, and sometimes you lose, But this guy had no skills at all to be a true player of the martial art game. So like most that are not true to the martial art game, the martial art is not going to be true to you. You find this out the hard way, just like this poor guy did.
Be true to your art, and your art will be true to you.

I have a video of a person fighting at the UFC that claim he train in BaGuaZhang, the guy was fat as hell, and he got beat down fast, knockout by a submission fighter.

So I can understand where Phantom Menace is coming from with is veiws, and his feelings about internal martial artists, me and my brother.

Count, the hell waiting for Ben to come visit you guys. Maybe Phantom Menace can visit your Sifu. You good old BaguaZhang boys down there can show the man a thing or two. After all your teacher is a BaGuaZhang expert, and you guys are not far from him , I love to know how Phantom Menace submission abiliity do against you guys.:D I alrady know from meeting you, your nuts, and with be willing to compare skills with the man. :)

CD Lee

11-07-2002, 04:02 PM

Muppet said:

If you need to go this route, the solution to this is easy: Get yourself in shape while training in one or two well-known fighting style like boxing, muay thai, wrestling, bjj/judo, etc. for a couple of years.

Then spend a year or so sparring in a MMA club (if you're not in one already) to balance yourself out, get pointers, and get a taste of sparring from different people and styles.

At this point, if you've practiced dilligently, you should probably be a better fighter than most of the people you meet out there, not to mention in good shape.

I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous saying that is easy. That is not an easy solution. That is a complicated and expensive way to find your first kung fu teacher. I want to learn an internal Kung Fu, so I have to spend say three to five years just so I can go out and test a kung fu Sifu to see if I can learn anything? I can get a Masters Degree faster than I could find a good teacher right. :D :D :D

If you are going to go that route, then forget martial arts altogether. Go to a real boxing gym and train to actually fight for six months to a year, and get some real matches under your belt, and at that point you can whip 95 percent of everybody's @ss on the planet. You could whip plenty of martial arts guys too. And, it is a lot faster. My Sifu has done boxers, and he says they are a real bear to fight.

blacktaoist

11-07-2002, 04:02 PM

Phantom Menace, I'm all game for some friendly sparring. I try my best to visit Ca next year, Also I told count I was going to vist his ass before. He told me he take me around Ca. to visit a few BaGuaZhang people. I hope their ass can Fight.:D

Phantom Menace

11-07-2002, 05:29 PM

:D BT,

I'm a Bagua guy as well. Surprise? ;) When you visit we can play.

blacktaoist

11-07-2002, 07:27 PM

Man your joking right:D I just knew you was some kind of BJJ practitioner. But its all good I love to play with you. Yo, what style of BaGuaZhang do you practice, and who your sifu?

SevenStar

11-08-2002, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by Empty Fist

I disagree. Bottom line it is easier to grab clothes vs grabbing skin. That’s why the BBJ guy was only wearing shorts. Why didn’t he wear a gi? Because he wanted to be at an advantage. Kudos for him thinking.

It's harder, but can be dealt with. Grapplers do it all the time in no gi competitions. Shuai chiao players do it also.

Take out the eyes.

Easier said than done on a moving, resisting opponent. On the ground however, it would be much easier...

You mention cross training. Any fighter that cross trains in other martial arts will be a better fighter. That’s why Bruce Lee invented Jeet Kune Do. His art was constantly evolving taking the best of and martial arts and wrapping into one form. The lesson from Bruce, always keep an open mind to learning. Bottom line…any martial artist is at a great disadvantage if they don’t know ground techniques.

Kinda, but not necessarily. You'll get out of the arts what you put into them. if you half ass it, then that's what you'll get back, whether you cross train or not.

wiz cool c

11-08-2002, 09:45 AM

since 1993 the first ufc it has been proven you have to know some ground defence. almost 10 years latter and people still think there kung fu is flawless. If your ganna use you skills in a match like that you got to know basic defence againt comen things on the ground. So that if you do get taken down you can defend and get back up and use your kung fu right. I do think there are experts of internal kung fu that could kill these guys but they are usally older masters of there stile and would never go and chalenge a competitive atholete to a fight. But here is an exsample of what i think is a good kung fu teacher that trains to fight. One school i had a brief experence with was Yees hung gar on Henry street. The teacher there is very good he would sparr the whole class one student after the other. He would compete in kung fu sparring tournements. On the weekend they would have specail sparring classes where they would do boxing stuff sometimes and they learned grappling stuff sometimes as well hit pads sparred full contact.

Phantom Menace

11-08-2002, 10:32 AM

BT, I wouldn't be a phantom menace if I told you who I am. I usually use my real name everywhere I post, except here.

When you go to So Cal just let me know. I will meet you and take you to my teacher.

count

11-08-2002, 10:38 AM

How many notable SC bagua teachers are major proponents of other forms of ground grappling, shuai chaio not included? Phantom Menace, did you pick up your private messages today?

Phantom Menace

11-08-2002, 12:19 PM

I think you've got me confused with some other obnoxious poster. ;)

HuangKaiVun

11-08-2002, 02:00 PM

Combat is the equalizer in martial arts.

In the heat of battle, all pretenses go out the window. The only thing that matters is whether or not one's butt is being beaten.

REAL combat schools understand this all too well and don't go around lording "peace" and "harmony" over their students. All that new age stuff doesn't mean squat when somebody is in your face trying to extinguish your life.

There's not enough time in one's training to put on airs and be criticizing men like blacktaoist and maoshan for preparing themselves for real combat.

All that energy spent flicking one's nose at these guys would be better spent flicking one's single palm change in some sparring session.

count

11-08-2002, 02:54 PM

My mistake Phantom Menace. Is your teacher currently taking students in the area? Just curious.

Huang, I don't think anyone would just flick their nose at blacktaoist or maoshan. Especially if they didn't even know them. I think your missing the point here. There is nothing wrong with new age thought or hippy tai chee. But there is something wrong when a person claims to represent "kung fu fighters" and can't even fight or doesn't even know a system of kung fu in the first place. I thought that is what the myth was :confused:

blacktaoist

11-08-2002, 03:12 PM

HuangKaiVun

In the heat of battle, all pretenses go out the window. The only thing that matters is whether or not one's butt is being beaten

Your statement is so very truth.

AS for KFO people criticizing, I don't even care, most of them I'm never going to meet anyway. If there was no me, where would these individuals be. And if there was no individuals like them, where would I be.:D

HuangKaiVun

11-08-2002, 05:24 PM

I'm NOT missing the point, count.

You might not think anybody is rapping theblacktaoist and maoshan, but truth is otherwise. On this post, we have people criticizing theblacktaoist and maoshan for being overly combative in their kung fu mentality and training.

Well, that's EXACTLY why this thread exists in the first place. If those people spent as much brainpower training as opposed to posturing, kung fu wouldn't be in the weakened state it is today.

Instead of knocking guys like theblacktaoist and maoshan for being unapologetic about the realities of fighting, we should be LEARNING from them. These guys are out there putting it on the line day in and day out.

The thing is that it's better to expose a technique in practice than have it exposed on the street. That's the TRADITIONAL kung fu mentality, and there really is no other way of preparing oneself for combat.

In truth, nothing trains true humility and righteousness than the pain of getting one's butt kicked in a fight. This is the Chinese mentality, particularly in the authentic Nei Jia lineages. It's "the school of hard knocks".

This is a reality which is deeply ingrained into our training regimens, and it's the basis from which theblacktaoist and maoshan make their provocative statements.

Those who have not trained in this kind of manner cannot fathom that of which I speak - and it SHOWS in their kung fu.

By the way, theblacktaoist, you would likely find my kung fu very interesting.

I'd love to cross hands with you, either in Phoenix or NYC.

When the timing is right, I'll seek you out.

maoshan

11-09-2002, 01:17 AM

Peace All

Look, I’m going to address these last points, then I’m out of this for good

Shadow Dragon

(I simply don't like the way they come across and some of their arguments for the way they do things)

As I previously stated, does that change the points being made?
My world consists of blood and guts, not hopes and dreams.
You want somebody to be politically and verbally correct with you.
F**k that $hit. When it comes to life or Death, is that really that important?
Or are you saying that just because you don’t like the expression, your just going to talk $hit? The world is bigger than your concepts. I don’t care what you think personally, but consider that.

(I feel that they got some skill and feel strongly about their agenda, but don't believe that their skill is as high as they make it out to be nor that their understanding is that good.)

You don’t know what we know. You have no idea. You’ve simply seen what we’ve presented. Don’t you know the old saying about judging? Also, who claimed high skill? Neither one of us.
That’s our goal. Because we speak with experience, you take that to mean high skill? As I said before, I know nothing, but you know even less.

(How do I feel about the modern MA scene.
MA is evolving to conform to todays requirements and needs)

Untrue. If that was the case then we would have nothing to talk about, and the topic would be moot. It’s not evolving, it’s devolving, thus the basis of our points.

(Today we live in a safer society than ever in human History.)

By who’s standard do you base that statement? Who have you polled? Surly none of my people.

CD LEE

(You state that Kung Fu is not about philosophy or other aspects other than just the martial and that is simply untrue and out of balance to begin with. You know well that the internals that we study are formed to a large degree on Taoist teachings and understandings. I am not saying it is religion or anything like that, but there is some balance. You can say it is only about fighting, but it does not make it true. This is why your mantra is not well accepted by many. What you say is true, just not the whole truth. There is a big difference.)

First let’s get something understood, 25yrs ago, for the most part, there was very little in terms of written material on the internal, Most of it was on Tai Chi, very little on Ba-Gua and Xing-I. But what was available was filled with the philosophy and theory. Philosophy, Like Ba-Gua is a principle that is adjusted to the individual and develops with that individual. He didn’t say that it was not about it, but rather not all of it. The philosophy develops as you develop. If you don’t develop, what’s your philosophy? Now the teachings themselves, we teach full bore along with all the trimmings. We don’t address it because there’s too much of it already. How can you claim to be doing the internal if the approach is not balanced physically as well as mentally? If we overstressed fighting none of our people would be advancing unto which we don’t have that problem. If you want to talk philosophy, create a thread on it. Fighting is an aspect of the development of the energy that is being down played.
On this board, it is assumed that the posters have at lest a minimal amount of development, if not, you need to just be reading and learning and comparing or just asking questions.
But it’s not like that. Bull$hit type people get in here and have fun at the expense of some probably very dedicated people, and what happens? Madness.

(Also, using your method to test a Sifu is not practical for a beginner. This makes it very difficult for newer practitioners to follow your advice.)

Hey, beginners aren’t learning yet. It’s not to test the teacher when you know nothing. That’s for people that have been involved for a minute. The one with no experience at all has got to start somewhere. Hopefully they’ve got the sense to look around first before deciding. Even once they’ve begun learning continue to research and look, compare. But, what ever they do, they first have to put the required time and effort in to really gauge what they need for them selves.

(a great sifu can be older than 60, and I 'aint fighting an old man period.)

Most of my teachers have been over 60 and they hurt my$$. I haven’t had one I could beat yet. I don’t follow you. My understanding of the internal is the older you get the better you get, and I’m a witness to this.

(One point that I would like to bring up once again, is that even external schools by the droves, fight and spar, and still can't fight well. A few can, most can't.)

That was my original point when I spoke on the low standard of Kung Fu In the west. It has to rise.

Count

(How many students do you think would keep coming back to class if they got their a$$es kicked every other day?)

What’s up count? How have you been? It was good to meet you at the tournament. I’m glad we finally mete face to face. Tell Jason I said what’s up.
Now to the point.
Your speaking from a commercial standpoint, which I’m not, interested in at all. It’s “Kung Fu for sale” that’s probably the biggest cause for the lack of true development in the west.

(I agree with you but I must say you aren't going to convert too many people posting on the internet.)

I’m speaking to the fighters. And those that want to be able to fight will realize through experience what I’m saying. The rest don’t count.
I’m planning to come out your way within the next year. But we’ll be talking.

Cool Wiz C
Your right
Yee’s Hung Ga is the real thing. That’s for sure. He goes for nothing less than Top quality

HuangKaiVun

Nice post guy.
I’m curious about your style now. You’ve piqued my curiosity. What’s your system?

Anyway I’m done with this tonight.

Peace

Maoshan

Shadow Dragon

11-09-2002, 02:49 AM

Maoshan.

Whatever.

Never mind that I was nearly crippled from a kick to the back in a fight, but I guess besides you all are talking **** and from NO experience.
Never mind too that I used to hang out with a lot of Bikers and we had plenty of scraps, most of us did a range of MA.
Plus, I used to live in a place that was considered more dangerous than Beirut during the uprising.

But to you and BT other peoples experience don't seem to matter.

As for the point of living in a safer society than ever, try a Library rather than a Dojo or fighting people for that type of info and read up about some studies and researches.
Your little corner is NOT the WHOLE world, nor does it reflect the rest of the World..

You say I don't know what you and BT do, but than neither do you Guys know what the rest of the guys one here do either.

Some Guys seen and done the bad **** and came out with a different viewpoint than you Guys.
I lost too many Buddies do keep on fighting and have now created myself a living environment where I don't need to do that **** anymore.

And that is MA at it's highest level, it goes way beyond pure fighting skill, using your MA trained skills to create an environment where there is no need to fight.

Like I said keep living yourn little dream, your perception of what MA is might not be the true one,
Ever considerd that one, maybe one day you will realise that for a long time you barked up the wrong tree.

Peace.

Shadow Dragon

11-09-2002, 03:02 AM

Maoshan.

I will take you to some places where they will rob you while 3 are covering you with AK47's and other weapons.
Let's see how far your MA skill go than.

It is all fine talking about Skill and how abd the scene has gone, if your MA skills can't carry you through ALL the possible scenarios it is useless.

I know the limitation of my skills and how far I can rely on them and I also know that in many sitautions know matter how hard and realistic you train those skills will be useless.

But I guess I am finished for today too.

Empty Fist

11-09-2002, 03:58 AM

Originally posted by blacktaoist
Try fighting a internal practitioner who have develop their root and know how to hit with whole body power and can feel your every movemovent when in contact with you. And I'm not talking about Chi, I'm talking about real Kung Fu skill. That guy on the tape had nothing.( NO KUNG FU WHAT SO EVER)Truth is truth.

I can vouch to what Black Taoist is saying here. My teacher showed me the difference between the power of a Karate punch and a Tai Chi Chuan punch. The Tai Chi Chuan punch sent me flying onto the floor. Thankfully I was holding a cushion to absorb some of the power of the punch. There is a lot of truth to what BT is saying is this forum. Tai Chi Chuan is a martial art but unfortunately the art has whithered down to a form of dance. There are not enough people out there teaching the martial applications of the art. All they know how to do is the form. I am very fortunate to have a Sifu (although my Sifu is very informal and no one calls him Sifu) that teaches the martial applications of the Yang form. My teacher also teaches San Shou as well. BT have you ever checked out Willian C.C. Chen? His studio is in New York. He is my teacher’s Master. Master Chen is a very big advocate of promoting Tai Chi Chuan as a martial art. I was fortunately enough to go to one of Master Chen’s seminars. I was shocked that a man who is 70 years old could be lighting quick and still have tremendous power for man of his age.

blacktaoist

11-09-2002, 02:27 PM

Shadow Dragon

All I have to say to you is, your one funny individual. I loved your New Jack City Gangster Thriller post replys.:D

HuangKaiVun

If your ever in the New York City area, let me know. I love to meet up with you and talk, and practice a little. Its always good to meet other martial artist.:)

Empty Fist

BT have you ever checked out Willian C.C. Chen? His studio is in New York. He is my teacher’s Master. Master Chen is a very big advocate of promoting Tai Chi Chuan as a martial art.

I learned Master William C.C. Chen short Tai Chu form from Sifu Rudy Curry Jr He was a student of master william for over 18 years. Sifu Rudy later take me to train under master William, I train mostly his freestyle push hands. In my opinion master William Tai Chi is extremely practical for combat. His school is a fighting Tai Chi fighting school were even the oler people in his school get down.

I have seen master William apply his skills on people. The man can fight, and applying Tai Chi in any fighting situation. I have met few Tai Chi teachers that can do what William Chen can do. The man is 70 years old and still freefights (spar) with his students. The man got true Tai Chi skill.

Now some traditional Yang Tai Chi players may don't like Williams style of Tai Chi Chuan, but what doe's it matter if the man can easy put younger opponents on their ass very easy.

Peace

maoshan

11-09-2002, 02:35 PM

Shadow Dragon

You got physiological problems don’t you?

Why do you have to lie? And make **** up?
First you claim about all your years of experience and then when you’re called on it you ***** up and say you only have 4.but let’s not forget the plus 20. You then say that BT’s skill exceeds yours. How is that possible? Have ya’ll met at sometime he’s not aware of? Or are you just a B***H having a fit because you don’t like what was said? You said we have no experience but our skill exceeds yours. What’s up with you? Ya Buggin,

And as far as your last post goes, as Jim Kelly said in enter the dragon, Man you come right out of a comic book.
Your delusional aren’t you?

(But to you and BT other peoples experience don't seem to matter.)

We never said that. It’s you who keep going other places. We’re on the topic of fighting. We never claimed that bullets bounced off our chest. Your giving us more credit than we deserve.

(As for the point of living in a safer society than ever, try a Library rather than a Dojo or fighting people for that type of info and read up about some studies and researches.
Your little corner is NOT the WHOLE world, nor does it reflect the rest of the World.)

Look, I never said anything like that. You better try RIF.(reading is fundamental)
It‘s where I live that I‘m concerned about and if you want history? I‘m your man. My reality is not yours and I never said it was. again RIF. Martial arts is a personal thing. What are you saying?

(You say I don't know what you and BT do, but than neither do you Guys know what the rest of the guys one here do either.)

This is true, but I can gauge by some of the responses that I’m getting.

(And that is MA at it's highest level, it goes way beyond pure fighting skill, using your MA trained skills to create an environment where there is no need to fight.)

Of course that’s the goal. But what do you do on your way to that goal? This is martial art. We fight. As you progress you reach the point of awareness where your perception allows you to avoid meaningless conflict. You try to make it seem like we're looking for fights every day. we’re both too old for that. We’ve got families to take care of. All were doing is discussing and debating fighting Here. It's quit obvious that the people want to check this out look at the number iof hit'. So if I was Bush and you was Gore, where would you be?
You’ve taken this to a whole new level.

(Like I said keep living yourn little dream, your perception of what MA is might not be the true one,
Ever considerd that one, maybe one day you will realise that for a long time you barked up the wrong tree.)

I truly doubt this, being that I’m shooting for the top and have the right guidance to reach my goal.

(I will take you to some places where they will rob you while 3 are covering you with AK47's and other weapons.
Let's see how far your MA skill go than)

This is why I think you‘ve got problems.
Who claimed to be super man? Is this A Shaw Bros. Movie or something? Nobodies claimed some fantastic skill. You’re trying to make us look like we’re crazy. It ain’t working. Remember RIF.

(It is all fine talking about Skill and how abd the scene has gone, if your MA skills can't carry you through ALL the possible scenarios it is useless.

I know the limitation of my skills and how far I can rely on them and I also know that in many sitautions know matter how hard and realistic you train those skills will be useless)

What the F**k is your problem? You think we don’t know our limitations? We live in the real world. F**k your feelings about my expression. Get real

Besides You have not answered any of the questions I asked you. Why? Because you don’t want to look stupid? Being evasive is not the cure for that. Get off of my personality and stick to the topic.
Personality conflicts are a part of life but people can still communicate. Why can’t you why can’t you stick to the subject?
We uproot your mental stability that much. Then you need to seek help. Or just leave it alone.
.

Water Dragon

11-09-2002, 06:04 PM

Whereabouts do you train EmptyFist? I did William CC Chen's stuff for about 5 years.

Empty Fist

11-09-2002, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Whereabouts do you train EmptyFist? I did William CC Chen's stuff for about 5 years.

Water Dragon, my Sifu (although we never call him Sifu because he is very informal) is Rolly Brown. Rolly has been a student of Master William Chen for about 20 years. Master Chen was a senior student of Professor Cheng Man-Ching. My teacher has had the benefit to study from 8 different Tai Chi Chuan masters before studying under Master Chen. Rolly finally found what he was looking for in a Tai Chi Chuan instructor from a martial aspect when he met Master Chen. Think about that. My teacher had to go through eight different Tai Chi Chuan masters to finally find a master “who had the goods”. I was very fortunate that I only studied under one so called Tai Chi Chuan master before meeting Rolly Brown. As I said before, there is a lot of truth in what Black Taoist is saying in this forum. I train in Bucks County, PA. I have only been studying the Yang short form for about a year. I took judo and juijitsu for 3 years and was blown away the amount of power that Tai Chi Chuan can generate with so little movement. My teacher has literally sent me flying 10 feet back in demonstrations (no bullsh*t). My teacher has a website: rollybrown.com. Check it out :D

CD Lee

11-09-2002, 08:04 PM

Maoshan - As regards your answers and responses to my quotes, I follow you loud and clear. Nice repsponses, and I do agree with you. About fighting people over 60, yes, my sify could very easily destroy me. But I have never seen a 60 yr old like him. I guess there are others but it just seems unreal in a way. I can certainly appreciate and am actually quite glad for your experiences with older fighters. That is encouraging.

blacktaoist

11-09-2002, 08:24 PM

C.D. Lee There are some teachers still left out here, that are old and love to show off their skills. But their hard to find. But its good you have a teacher that can still kick ass, still in his old age. Most teachers that I know that can still do that are mostly BaGua and Hsing Yi teachers. The only old Tai Chi teacher that I know that can rock is Master Chen.

Water Dragon

11-09-2002, 08:35 PM

Yeah, I know who Rolly is. Well I know "of" him actually. I did my first three years with Charles Pearce and the last two with Shawn Parkes. I'm also a huge Nathan Menaged fan and I think he's the one who actually influenced me more than anyone. I've always heard excellant things of Rolly. I'm actually dedicating everything to Shuai Chaio now. What can I say, it's everything that "I" was looking for. The body mechanics and Tui Shou are still there though, too good to let go :)

Water Dragon

11-09-2002, 08:40 PM

p.s. It's always good to see a Chen-Head on the boards :D

CD Lee

11-09-2002, 10:15 PM

BT - Well, you guys keep it real, because there needs to be a certain number of teachers of Internals across the country that keep it real, so in that regard you guys are growing the art for the future generations. I am not convinced that high level teaching can be imparted to many people in great numbers due to the work involved, but I like to dream big. Keep up that good work, practice hard, be well.

maoshan

11-10-2002, 12:34 AM

CD Lee

I agree.
Because of the work involved there will never be a lot of high level practitioners, and like you I like to dream big as well.
But my hope is that the few that have what it takes will at lest get quality instruction. That's the only way we'll see people past the age of 60 able to still thump with a man in his prime and win. it's an incredible task but well worth the hardship.

and btw, your words along with others are greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

Peace

maoshan

Water Dragon

11-10-2002, 01:01 AM

For the record, both Helio Gracie and Gene LeBell still regularly thump on people in their prime, as do David Lin, Dr. Brian Wu and a whole lot of others.

Internal Boxer

11-10-2002, 12:24 PM

Shadow dragon, sorry to point this out but you have made yourself look a complete twat.:rolleyes:

HuangKaiVun

11-10-2002, 12:46 PM

maoshan, it's a pity I didn't know you when I lived in Schenectady.

I've moved out to Arizona since August this year, but I'll return at some point. Whether or not I can visit Syracuse, I cannot say at the moment.

I do several styles, but my root is an art called "Seng Men". This little known style was brought from China to the US by my sifu, who does not have a school.

This style is a true "Nei Jia" art with the circlewalk, bridging hands, Iron Body, and tension footwork of a Baguazhang or Tzuranmen.

My own "Huang Style" is a spinoff from this great art, though my method has its own jing and mentality.

When I return to New York to visit my family, I'd love to meet you in person.

It's always an honor to meet real Chinese kung fu fighters, as opposed to the twits like Ego_Extraordinare and Nick Lo who talk smack endlessly and RUN AWAY endlessly.

circle_walker

11-10-2002, 12:55 PM

When I was up there visiting the tournament, there was this Black Muslum guy who was a Chen stylist. I beleive his name is "Maku". He said he was about 10 min. from the tournament. He was having fun watching the Bagua push hands, and seemed very knowledgible in demonstrating his fighting applications. He was dancing some poor volunteer all around the floor. he told me he used to be a boxer before he studied Tai chi, and was primarily into it for the fighting. I would be interested in looking him up next year.

maoshan

11-10-2002, 04:28 PM

HuangKaiVun

It would be my honor as well my friend. Please let me know when your comming.
I've been aware of other Internal systems for some time know but have not had the luck of meeting someone who knew one.
the only other style outside of the main three i've been privy to see was Tzuranmen.

It'll be great to get together.

Peace

circle_walker

I believe that the person your speaking of is one of BT's students
father, who is a Chen stylist. I don't know him personally and I didn't get the chance to see what you saw being I was caught up in the tournament. But I heard that he knew his stuff.

Maoshan

HuangKaiVun

11-11-2002, 10:40 AM

My brother lives in Rochester, maoshan.

When I visit him, I'll drive over to your place. Rochester is only an hour away from Syracuse.

And I'm honored that you call me "friend". That really means a lot to me.

As far as large numbers, there will never be a high percentage of high level practitioners. That's just the way the human race works.

However, if practitioners from all over come together in the spirit of harmony, then there WILL be a large number of practitioners.

Already I see a small real-life community on KFO developing, very much due to maoshan and blacktaoist's efforts.

I think that's really good for kung fu.

omarthefish

11-24-2002, 04:23 PM

BT,

I just noticed from an earlier post that you will soon be making a trip to Beijing. When you have a definate date, I would like to know. I live and study gong-fu in Xi'an, primarily Bajiquan but I practice circle walking as well and would be very interested to see an American who can actually use the stuff.

everyone else,
Just for the record, regarding old guys. My Sifu is 60. His arms are thick and strong. He does pushups using just the index and middle fingers of his hands and he could drop me as easily as I could drop an elementary school student. He can do it using taiji, bagua OR baji. The old guys who can kick your ass are still around. I have met 2 of them just here in Xi'an.

Knifefighter

11-25-2002, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by blacktaoist
Phantom Menace

I don't hate you, Why should I. You never did anything to me. But I'm not puting up $5000 to fight anyone. Now if a Bjj practitioner put $5000 on the line to fight them. I be more then willing to compare skills with them for their own money.

And I'm sorry, but that guy was low level, and he did have any knowledge of wrestling,or ground defense. He was to easy preay for anyone that had some kind of ground fighting background. $hit I have friends that train in judo for only a few years, That I know can take that guy out.

Phantom Menace, if anyone may be living in a martial arts fantasy bubble, I have to say its you. If you think that guy had some kind of real Kung Fu skill, or any fighting skill at all.

Tell you what, I have a very good friend that trained with a tai chi master in singapore, named Lau Kim Hong, my friend now lives in China town new york, if you are ever in New York, let me know, I love to see you try that ground $hit on him. The olny reason I welcome you to come, is because I think you are real with your $hit, then these punks up here.

Every ground fighter That I take to meet my friend can 't do $hit with him. Know I never like tai Chi to much , but after seeing my friend in action, I had to learn his push hands method from him. And I know a lot of push hands players that also can do very well against ground fighters and Bjj players. They no real big deal to most internal practitiuoners that train their push hands and Tai Chi methods for combat. Real Internal martial art Fighters.

This is for you and anyone else here who believes either the MMA guy or the kung fu guy was "low-level". I was involved in setting up this fight and I believe each of these fighters would still be interested in doing another match with someone else who thinks he could beat one of them. If you, your friend, or anyone else here thinks he could beat one of these fighters, why not put up the $5,000 and do it instead of talk about how low level one or both of them is? This would easily pay for your plane ticket, your lodging and give you a nice chunk of change to go home with.

Any of you guys interesting in proving how you could beat one of these "no skill" fighters? If so, drop me an e-mail me at Islanddogg@Yahoo.com and we'll get started setting it up.

omarthefish

11-25-2002, 10:39 PM

This is for you and anyone else here who believes either the MMA guy or the kung fu guy was "low-level".

Um. . . we only think the gong-fu guy was low level. :(

why not put up the $5,000 and do it instead of talk about how low level one or both of them is?

:confused: That's a dumb question. Why should I put up the cash. If you wanted to bet $5000 you might find some takers.

It's not even a distant possibility for me (see my location) but if Mr. Sansoo was feeling up to putting up another 5 g's I'd be willing to risk a few knocks for a quick payday like that.

These challenges where you put up your own money make no sense. In the Gracies case it made sense because they were bent on setting up a grand commercial enterprise. They have succedded. I can remember when they were hollaring about a $40,000 payday to anyone who could take them back in teh pre-
UFC days. It was a calculated risk and more to the point, an investment. An investment in the Gracie name. An investment which has paid off. In advertising terms, they were creating a brand name. What they do is not terribly unique. They used the public challenge to create interest and to create value in the public mind. Now they have schools around the globe and charge more than most other schools based on their reputation. Deservedly so.

If that gong-fu fighter put up $5000 of his own cash than it just goes to show his business sense was as lame as his gong-fu.

Knifefighter

11-26-2002, 10:43 AM

"That's a dumb question. Why should I put up the cash. If you wanted to bet $5000 you might find some takers." – omarthefish

Uh… each side puts up equal amounts. Winner takes all.

"Um. . . we only think the gong-fu guy was low level"- omarthefish

Would you be willing to BET $5,000 that you could beat him?

"Now this is the same fighting we see here in NY in the ghetto everyday. This is what we have seen in our encounters with the internal people we've meet over thje last few years. The only differance is we beat them standing up."- maoshan

As Phantom Menace asked, "Where are the videos?" The San Soo guy stepped up and put it on the line against John Marsh, a top MMA fighter. If you are going to criticize him, it begs the question, "Where is the video of you fighting a top MMA guy?" As a matter of fact do you have any videos of your supposedly beating these internal people?

"Interesting the BJJ guy was just wearing shorts which is not realistic."- Empty Fist

Would you be willing to fight one of our MMA fighters if he wore pants?

"That guy didn’t even know how to throw a kick."- maoshan

Again, I have to ask, can you point me to a video of you throwing an effective kick against a top rated MMA player?

"Do you think that was a quality Kung Fu Figher that fought. I think not. I know street fighters in my community that could have did a hell of a better job."- blacktaoist

Same question as posed to maoshan, where are the videos of your supposed skill against a top MMA fighter?

"I was making a point about lack of skill and what made him think that he had enough skill to put $5000 on the line?"- maoshan

Do YOU have enough skill to put $5,000 on the line?

"But I'm not puting up $5000 to fight anyone. Now if a Bjj practitioner put $5000 on the line to fight them."- blacktaoist

Each side put up $5,000. Would you be willing to do that?

"Like I said I know people in my community that can fight better then that, and they don't even know martial arts."- blacktaoist

Got the videos?

"So I have knowledge of ground work, chokes and locks. And I'm sorry, but that guy was low level, and he did have any knowledge of wrestling,or ground defense. He was to easy preay for anyone that had some kind of ground fighting background"- blacktaoist

So with your knowledge of ground fighting, maybe you can critique the San Soo guy’s technique on the ground. What do you think he did wrong on the ground? Did you see him doing anything right on the ground? What techniques would you have used to keep John from attaining side control? What would you have done if John did get side control on you?

"I trained on the ground for a very long time and I'm also a Gymnast."- maoshan

You are an accomplished ground fighter? OK, so let’s hear your technical critique of the San Soo fighter’s ground work, since you were the one who originally stated he had no skill.

"Yes, I can see if an individual can fight or not on tape. and in truth, can somebody tell me the differance between being there and watching it on the TV? Boxers do it constantly to understand thier opponent. but again I'm talking about fighters. If you can't see it ,you must not be."- maoshan

"Trying to take a man out in my first open move,with a high forward front kick in a real fight is not my style."- blacktaoist

Based on the above quotes and considering the fact that there were no high kicks thrown in that fight, what might that suggest about blacktaoist as a fighter?

HispanicPalm

11-26-2002, 01:03 PM

Knifefighter,

My sifu Blacktaoist no longer post on KFO and actually he's laughing at all the comotion but I'm sure he'll be more than willing to spar with any of those guys on that video clip and since you are so confident if you guys can ever find yourself in the BIG APPLE we'll be willing to put up the $5000 it would be even better if you can come before christmas and give us a happy New Year cause we could use the money to go to China!!

And if your really serious all you have to do is e-mail Blacktaoist@hotmail.com or brotherlaoqiang@yahoo.com or come to Frederick Douglas Community Center at 870 Colombus Ave, Basement Level any time after 6pm. if you have trouble finding it all you have to do is ask anybody for the brother who does BaGua and they'll point you in the right direction.

BTW, All this talk is cheap and if your serious just Show Up it's open house all day everyday and don't forget your video camera!!

There will be no more replys so just come down
PEACE!!

Volcano Admim

11-26-2002, 01:44 PM

Well, young Knifeman, obvously you dont grow up in a tough neightborhood area, rich american and spoiled train mma and knife all day work in a video store i know yoou. find 5000 dolar laying on trash garbage, i dont find!!! i dont know you rich trian bjj/knife/muy thai for have challenge your friend pay here like in nyc. who top mma defeat, what pro record is you!? takada would pound you to bleed

Mojo

11-26-2002, 03:36 PM

Volcano Admin talk like Tanto. Him no makim sense.

Knifefighter
You can bring this up with Maoshan and Black Taoist on their own board at
http://pub27.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=2285854926

Knifefighter

11-26-2002, 06:52 PM

BT:
Sounds good. We'll be seeing you next time I'm in NY.

CD Lee

11-26-2002, 08:04 PM

Knifefighter

Whether I can, or you can, or anybody on this board or any other forum, can fight better than Marsh or San Soo boy, has nothing to do with whether San Soo boy had a really bad fight that appeared low level.

I could be a big fat, pizza eating, never fought a day in my life nerd, and it still changes nothing about the San Soo guys approach in that fight. He sucked ok? He broke a few rules of good strategy that frankly, made him look like a begginner.

BTW, this could be Teddy Atlas saying these same things, which he says every week on Friday night Fights on ESPN2:

1. He approached his opponent with his hands DOWN. Bad error.

2. He approached his opponent with his shoulders square to the target. Very bad error.

3. Combined with error 1 and 2 if not bad enough, he uprooted his base by instantly trying a kick from a moving position. No less against a grappler, looking for a leg!!! Very bad error.

So, in just a few seconds, he initiates the attack on a counter grappler, with hands down, shoulders square, and standing on one leg. Hey, anybody that watches fights, knows that you don't do those things and stand a good chance in not getting clobered. It is extreemly reasonable when people look at that and say he looked low level.

He might be better now, or maybe he just messed up real bad.

Knifefighter, answer this one question truthfully. Looked at that video, that fight, do you think the San Soo guy looked like a high level, high skilled fighter?

And what is with the Video stuff?? Who gives a rip? I see stuff all the time that nobody has a video of? So friggin' what? I have news for you. Real stuff happens all the time everyday that nobody has a video of.

omarthefish

11-26-2002, 10:28 PM

CD,

Thank you for stating what I thought was obvious.

When I get back to the States (eventually) it is definately on my agenda to look up a local MMA or BJJ gym and 'test' their skills, but I will NOT be putting up cash or making a video. I want to go to satisy my own curiousity and to see this chinese stuff really works or if I'm as dumb about fighting as most online grapplers seem to think.

From the few I've 'spoken' with online, there's no need for a formal challenge. Most MMA guys and BJJers seem happy to roll with whoever walks in the door. I think if you don't come in with a chip on your shoulder and they really CAN whip your ass your good manners will likely be rewarded with a lack of broken bones or dislocated joints.

There IS such thing as a FRIENDLY challenge. The public challenges are mostly childish and deserve to be ridiculed when they backfire.

Knifefighter

11-27-2002, 09:21 AM

CD Lee:

Excellent post. Finally, someone with a technical critique of what they saw of the problems with the San Soo fighter. Compare your last post to just about every other one talking about how the guy sucks, how each poster is such a bada$$ fighter, can’t be beaten by a grappler; smokes everyone else, etc, etc, ad naseum.

One of my beefs with almost everyone here is that they put the San Soo fighter down, but have no clue about what happened, technically. Blacktaoist even went so far as to put down the San Soo guy’s high front kick- something he never even did.

It always amuses me the claims people like blacktaoist and Maoshan make about defeating grapplers and groundfighters, but when asked to comment about the technical aspects of grappling and groundfighting, either cannot do so or have no clue when they do try to comment on what is actually going on.

Most of the people who ridicule the San Soo guy have never fought a real fight and those that have never have gone against a quality opponent. These people don’t realize that fights don’t happen the way that they happen when they are choreographed in the movies. Most people who fight in the high stress situation of a challenge match or real fight, especially if they aren’t used to doing it regularly, will lose 30 to 80% of their skills, no matter how highly trained they are.

The reason I ask about videos, is that these people make claims about being such great fighting machines, but there is absolutely no evidence to back it up. The most you might see is one or two of them playing patty-cake on their web site. At least the San Soo fighter has actually fought a quality opponent, something 99% of those putting him down have never done. Not only that, he has the video to prove it.

As far as your technical critique of the San Soo fighter’s standup strategy, you are spot on. Those criticisms are valid. However, they are not necessarily indicative of the man’s skill, but may, rather, be shortcomings of the style he practices. I believe San Soo is supposed to me more a "self-defense" art, rather than a sport fighting system (kind of funny how so many other kung fu guys claim this, but don’t realize these same types of shortcomings of "self-defense" may be inherent in their arts). Being a "self-defense" practitioner, the San Soo guy approached John just as his training had taught him to do, since most self-defense situations don’t start in a fighting stance with the hands up and the shoulders and mid-line angled away from the opponent.

In terms of what I think of his technical ability, I disagree with the whole approach of San Soo- their training, their philosophy and the way they approach a fight or self-defense situation. My personal opinion is that one cannot become technically proficient with the whole "self-defense" approach that they take. However, I can’t put the guy down for having faith in his art and being willing to test it out against one of the best fighters on the planet.

The funny thing is he probably had more ground skills than most of the people making negative comments about him. I will hold off on technical comments on what he actually did right and wrong, as I would like to see if any of these yahoos who claim ground expertise can make an intelligent comment or two on what was happening on the ground. While he was by no means an expert on the ground, he did do some things right, making it harder for John to finish him. In my opinion John would have finished most of the detractors in a fraction of the time.

wiz cool c

11-27-2002, 09:53 AM

Omarthefish your going to test your kung fu skills by going to a BJJ school and rolling with them? You wont be testing your kung fu if you start from your nees and sparr under there rules something they do every day. Why dont you just go and learn some ground fighting from them you will see it is very effective and can be used if you ever got wrestled to the floor. I would like to tell a story about my training. I am 31 now and started training when I was 11. I Started with Tang Soo Do mainly a kicking art. My older brother is a good wrester and much biger then I. When we used to sparr I would always catch him with a few kicks and then he would grab me and tie me up and I would say ok stop. Then i came to the conclusion that if this happend in a fight the guy wouldn't just stop. So knowing that grappling was necessary I went and learned Jappaneze Jujitsu which i have a black belt in. Along the way I learned sombo 1 year and trained at Renzo Gracie for 6 mounths As well as american karate which hand ground fighting in it. Now even thought i study Chen Tai Ji and plan to make this my art for the rest of my life I know how to fight on the ground. Now my teacher I really believe could beat just about any ground fighter but most kung fu people could not as deminstrated in the video. Remember If you know even a little ground defence it can be enough to get back to your feet and use your game if you do happen to get taken down.

Waidan

11-27-2002, 11:06 AM

I studied San Soo for a few years while I was in college (I was a big bad brown belt, hehe). I agree with a lot of what has been said regarding the KFSS fighter, but I do want to make a couple comments.

I'm sure teaching varies somewhat from school to school, but we were always taught to fight from a 3/4 stance (similar to a traditional boxer stance, with guard up), usually with about 70% weight on the back leg. feet should be approximately shoulder-width to allow for a fast kick or step. Now mind you it was always impressed upon us that it is important to be able to react from ANY position, but if you have time to adopt a fighting stance (or "ready stance" as we called it) this is about what it should look like. Exposing your centerline is a big no no in most styles, and KFSS is no exception.

When the KFSS fighter stepped forward with his kick, it looks to me that he was beginning a preset"futga", one of KFSS's offensive techniques. Nothing wrong with that, but normally futgas incorporate a distractionary movement while you are launching your attack, or attempt to strike two separate targets simultaneously, like a knee to the groin and hammerblow to the neck, for instance. I only watched the video clip once, but it didn't look to me like there was any attempted misdirection, the KFSS fighter simply stepped forward and threw a high kick out there (high for the style at least, kicks in KFSS normally target the knees, groin, and femoral arteries...occasionally you'll see a shot to the lower abdomin, but that's really the ceiling where KFSS kicks are concerned).

Knifefighter

11-27-2002, 12:04 PM

Waidan:
And that's a perfect example of how the majority of your techniques go flying out the window when faced with a very high stress situation.

Imagine you are standing in front of a guy who weighs in at 230 lbs of pure muscle and he is one of the top NHB fighters in the world. You are going to be fighting him with no rules and, not only can you do anything, but so can he. It has been agreed upon that if he gets you in a joint lock, the match will not be over until the limb is actually broken. You can't tap out and quit. You have to either be unconscious or have one of your limbs broken to the point it is not usable anymore. He is known to be a knock out puncher, wrestled in college, and is a high level BJJ practitioner. He has a reputation as a professional fighter and, if he loses to you, he will be highly embarrassed. He also knows that you want to gouge his eyes, so he wants to hurt you as badly as possible before your are able to do that.

Now, tell me how many of your "pre-set" techniques you are going to remember to do.

BTW, what the heck is it with you guys and the high kick. Either you are totally clueless or you saw a different tape than the one of the fight that actually happened. THERE WAS NO HIGH KICK.

Waidan

11-27-2002, 12:20 PM

Hrm...from your reply it seems like you think I'm arguing with you. I'm not, nor am I sticking up for technique-based arts in general (thus my conversion to bagua years ago). I just saw a few incorrect assumptions regarding San Soo's approach to combat and thought I'd help fill in some of the blanks.

Does being in a "high stress situation" change things for a fighter? Hell yes! And I think that this video clip provides a lot of evidence to support that idea. Train hard, and train against resisting opponents in an unchoriographed <sp?> manner...otherwise when TSHTF you may find yourself in a bad way.

Waidan

11-27-2002, 12:24 PM

btw, I just reviewed the clip, and I have to agree on the "no high kick" thing. Telegraphed, yes. High, no. Maybe my computer sucks, but I can't see exactly where the kick lands.

Daredevil

11-27-2002, 02:12 PM

The way I see it ...

The Sansoo guy waltzed in, then initiated with a relatively low kick. In response, the opponent kicked the kick, so to speak, unbalancing and gaining a very good position to continue with a takedown. I think the fact that the kick was kicked, is why many are hazy on what exactly happened at the start.

Sean Marsh applied perfect kungfu principles there: "start later, finish first." Good stuff.

In my view, the match was lost there as to my relatively untrained (groundfighting-wise) eyes, the Sansoo guy didn't do anything an average fetus wouldn't do when being grappled by a monster. Yes, I've rolled a few times in class with folks ranging from total newbies to somewhat experienced grapplers, and I'm thinking I'm as much of a fetus -- if not more -- at that range. Anyway, yes he struggled, trying to poke eyes (and managing at least for a time to do that without his arm being caught and broken .. well, until .. ), then continued with a failed attempt to open the situation with his legs. Seems the opponent played his cards very carefully and very well, though, and waited for his chance. Maybe he figured the side-control he got seemed like the safest way to finish this. I'd be interested to hear what the Sansoo guy did right and what he did wrong, from a grappler's viewpoint.

I'm just wondering what made him start with such a telagraphed, odd thing as that kick. It was his downfall. I would have expected some leads or distractions to set that up. I wouldn't have done that. Of course, Knifefighter's point is excellent. It's easy to comment from my comfy chair, so my "I wouldn't have done that" is worthless. Things are all together different when faced with the situation. But that kinda supports what I feel to be my primary point -- the Sansoo guy didn't seem prepared enough (in my view, underestimating the groundfighting aspect of it all).

Of course, commenting videos is often somewhat perilous. It could any number of things making the Sansoo guy seem poor, be it Sean Marsh's skill, good luck, or whatever.

blacktaoist

11-27-2002, 04:37 PM

Knifefighter, This will be my only post reply too you, there will be no more.

Knifefighter you are just to funny to me. I been in more street fights then you ever know.

Why don't you just stop talking, and tell everybody on KFO the month, date and time, you claim you are coming to New York to visit me. Its seems like you want to make a Big Show and prove something with your so-called challenge money offer.

I found your offer money hard to take real. When about a year 1/2 ago you put out a call for kung fu fighters to fight in your so-called Cage fighting competition, and back then I e-mail you, because I was willing to fight down in CA at your event.

But you was only paying $300 for a fight. (little bit of nothing) Now you come out here talking on KFO like you have $5000 to offer. I think you are full of $hit and you just like to hear yourself talk $hit on the internal forums.

One of my students already give you the training place where I teach people. I myself already E-mail you yesterday , Did you even reply back. NO!!! But you are so for real.

I already told you I'm willing to compare with both of them martial artist on that movie clip yesterday.

You write here:

This is for you and anyone else here who believes either the MMA guy or the kung fu guy was "low-level". I was involved in setting up this fight and I believe each of these fighters would still be interested in doing another match with someone else who thinks he could beat one of them. If you, your friend, or anyone else here thinks he could beat one of these fighters, why not put up the $5,000 and do it instead of talk about how low level one or both of them is?

Well I 'm all for making fast money. Because looking at that footage I didn't see myself having much of a problem, or much of a fight, I better fights on the streets of New York.

I told you in the e-mail I sent you I'm all for uour $5000 challenge offer of these two guys with no rules. so what's the problem Why don't you just show the hell up with the money and these two individuals you are talking about. Month, date, time please.

Better yet, you talk like you are some great Bjj fighter why don't me and you compare skills for the money, if you ever show the hell up. Yo, I'm try to be nice, but man you are pushing this matter a little to far, for whatever reason Who knows. I guess you miss me on KFO or something.

One of my beefs with almost everyone here is that they put the San Soo fighter down, but have no clue about what happened, technically. Blacktaoist even went so far as to put down the San Soo guy’s high front kick- something he never even did.

High kick, Low kick , what the hell do it matter. Your boy throw a powerless kick and got his ass taking down. The so-called kung Fu or San Soo guy was low level. He had nothing. So kill the bull$hit. The BJJ guy was alright I had no bad comments about his actions. So stop makeing $hit up, claiming I and KFO people up on this web page said the man was low level. The Bjj Guy did what he was train to do, take the fight to the ground.

I stand by my statements, that so-called kung Fu guy had no true kung fu skills, and didn't know $hit about real fighting. And I prove my point when you Show the hell up with his ass.

As for me having Video of my fights , I never tape any of my fights with ground fighters or martial artists, it just never cross my mind to to such a thing.

But no matter I have many martial art friends that train in ground fighting, that will be there the day you claim you are going to visit me. I told all my martial art friends about the Knife Man from CA, with the so-called $5000 money offer you are advertising, for anyone that think they can beat these two individuals.

I have few Hsing Yi students that live in my resident, that want a go at your boys also for the $5000. They also train in westen boxing, and after they saw the clip, they feel this will be a easy pay day. Like I told you in the e-mail I'm a man of my word, When you come, that is if you truly show the hell up. there will be no Bull$hit. I already e-mail you the adress of the Center where I teach at.

here it is one more time:

Frederick Douglas Community Center at 870 Colombus Ave, 103 street Basement Level. any time after 6pm. You can't miss it, most of my students live in the residents, and some of them like to hang out side before class.

You wrote:

Sounds good. We'll be seeing you next time I'm in NY.

Well, why don't you come on down to New York City this week with these two individuals (and the $5000 you claim you have) and lets make this $hit happen. Because I'm that confident, that not one of these martial artists on that clip is going to Beat me. Your so-called Kung fu fighter, I know I knockout fast. (easy money) fighting your boy will be like taking candy from a baby.

What amuses me about you, is you think you know all about me. I found it real funny, You think I don't have any knowledge of your so-called great BJJ art , or that I never fought a professional Bjj practitioner or any ground fighter for that matter.

Man, you don't know $hit about me, only the information I put out on the internet that I want to be known about me. I train with many good martial art teachers, not just chinese martial arts

I know more ground work then you ever know, and I learned from some of the best dedicated Japanese fighters in the ground game, that are no joke with their skills that live in Japan. I don't have to put out all my bussiness on the internet,of all the martial arts methods I train in.

I have been a (uke) for many years, I have been neck crank, arm bar, shoulder crank, cross armlock, Even been knockout out to the point were I feel like I was dead. I had my arm and my right leg break a few times from martial art training . So do you think I fear you or any man. I don't even fear death, I welcome it.

The size of a man don't mean $hit to me. So tell that story to the fools that take your words as truth. I train in the internal because its the best, method of combat in my opinion.

As far as your MMa martial art or mixed martial art, dealing with true killing methods like BaGuaZhang, Hsing Yi boxing , and Tai Chi.

these internal arts in the hands of a skilled practitioner,, in able person to kick ass fast. And one don't have to fall in to playing little groundfighting kid games. theres no way in hell Bjj man going to beat a internal martial artists that know their $hit. For one you guys don't have any short power. And if you what to talk about Bjj. you motherfuchers don't have any hand skill at all. Let along any real power.

That Method only work against individuals that don't know how to adapt their methods to the situation at hand. $hit Chinese martial arts are just to deep for your dumb ass to understand.

$hit just the first move of Hsing I boxing can deal with most of BJJ attacks. All a person need is Root and short power. The sad thing is most internal martial artist that compare with you BJJ people, have not yet develop their root or short Fa Jing power and Tui Shou skills to a good level. But soon all that $hit is going to change, because more and more internal martials are starting to go back to the martial sidehard-code my friend.

But you know something I talking to much, Just show up, and please let everyone up here on KFO know the month, date and time, you be coming to New York City with your great offer. Like I told you in the E-mail, I'm all for the no Rules, because I will not be playing games when it comes to money. Don't take forever Man, Lets make this happen, I can use that $5000 for my visit in Malaysia next year.

It be cool if you can come down with your two boys before the New Years. Next month with be even better.

Keep well, I be waiting be to be EXPOSED."

Knifefighter

11-27-2002, 06:01 PM

What's up, cuz? Nice to hear you're up for the challenge. BTW, it's $5,000 per fight. So, the total would be $10,000 for both. I've got a few fighters, including myself who would be up for some action, so we could probably bring the pot even higher.

If I'm going to fly to the other side of the country, I'm going to need some kind of guarantee that you're going to have your side of the cash, as I'm sure you can understand. So, let's get started and hammer out the details. If you've done this type of thing before, you know there are a lot of things that need to be worked out beforehand. I e-mailed some rough guidelines, so get back to me on that stuff.

FYI, I don't promote the cage fights here, I just fight. I have nothing to do with the paydays being offered. I was only putting out the word that they were looking for kung fu people to fight.

omarthefish

11-27-2002, 10:00 PM

wiz cool c,

You wont be testing your kung fu if you start from your nees and sparr under there rules something they do every day.

First, sure Iwill. I might not win, but it's a great way to test skills. :) How is my gong-fu invalid if I have to start from a kneeling position?

Second, what makes you think wrestlers and BJJ'ers only start from the ground? They like to say fights GO to the ground. They START standing. I can think of no better way to test what kind of root you have than to let someone try and unroot you who is an expert in dooing just that.

I am 31 now and started training when I was 11.

Whats your point?

So knowing that grappling was necessary I went and learned Jappaneze Jujitsu

Good for you.

Remember If you know even a little ground defence it can be enough to get back to your feet and use your game if you do happen to get taken down.

An excellent point. One I have been trying to make other boards for some time now. You assume too much. I maintain that the only way to really know if you can use your gong-fu skills to defend against a grappler is to roll with someone who makes grappling his specialty. The rest is just theory. It sounds to me like we mostly agree. I just prefer a more informal approach. I don't think it is definately neccesary to sign up and join a jujitsu school. I have faith I'm getting the real thing here in my gong-fu training. Traditional gong-fu schools have been facing wrestling challenges from other countries for ages. What's lacking today, for me, is chances to test my skills.

Knifefighter,

Why are you intent on setting up a video challenge? What is your/their goal? Mixing it up with different schools is cool. What I don't get is the need for the video and all the posturing. If you just wanted to know for yourself, BT has declared an open door policy. Just check the address. If I ever pass though his neck of the woods I'll probably check it outmyself. (not to challenge ;) just want to see first hand. Although a little friendly sparring would be cool )

maoshan

11-28-2002, 06:37 AM

Knifefighter

This has gone too far.
It’s like this,
1st, I think you lying you’re a$$ off. To begin with if you were serious in the first place you would have e-mailed us directly instead of putting it up in here or both. But I’ll get back to that.

If you had anything to do with that event, why don’t you know the name of the kung fu guy? Also, We only spoke on the skill of the kung fu guy.

Next, Why should we put up any money at all? You challenged us. So let’s make this clear, as the senior I’m telling you we will not put up a dime. You challenged us. We don’t look for fights. We just stand our ground.

(As Phantom Menace asked, "Where are the videos?" The San Soo guy stepped up and put it on the line against John Marsh, a top MMA fighter. If you are going to criticize him, it begs the question, "Where is the video of you fighting a top MMA guy?" As a matter of fact do you have any videos of your supposedly beating these internal people?)

I don’t know what you thought, but that’s not why we started learning the martial arts. All the fights we’ve had were our experiences along the way. We learned for our selves, not with the thought that we were going to be commercial teachers and needed proof of our experiences for other people.
On the sports circuit, most of the critics have never even had a fight. Do they need a video of themselves?

The points made about the San Soo guy stand. We don’t need to have our own video to see that that was a horrible display. None MA’s could see that as well.

(Do YOU have enough skill to put $5,000 on the line?)
Why should I? Again you came at us. Who ever heard of the challenged putting up the money? Look man, we’ve already got a history of dealing with this subject.

(So with your knowledge of ground fighting, maybe you can critique the San Soo guy’s technique on the ground. What do you think he did wrong on the ground? Did you see him doing anything right on the ground? What techniques would you have used to keep John from attaining side control? What would you have done if John did get side control on you?)

He had no ground technique. He had no attack period. The BJJ guy just waited and swallowed him up like a baby. He just ran at him with some weak attempt to fake him out and just got took out. That wasn’t even a fight. The BJJ guy didn’t even have to use his technique. He simply snatched his ass up and put an end to it.
He had no strategy at all. True training teaches you how to deal with weight and height differences. You just don’t run at a man that’s got a distinct advantage on you. You have to think. This shows his lack of experience.

(You are an accomplished ground fighter? OK, so let’s hear your technical critique of the San Soo fighter’s ground work, since you were the one who originally stated he had no skill.)

As I said before, he had no skill. What’s to talk about?

(Based on the above quotes and considering the fact that there were no high kicks thrown in that fight, what might that suggest about blacktaoist as a fighter?)

First of all, if that wasn’t a high kick that he was attempting, he’s got some weird body mechanics. While the kick didn’t go high at all, even if it was a low kick it didn’t matter, because the moment he lifted his leg the BJJ guy was on him. But it doesn’t matter anyway. He stopped him cold.

( It always amuses me the claims people like blacktaoist and Maoshan make about defeating grapplers and groundfighters, but when asked to comment about the technical aspects of grappling and groundfighting, either cannot do so or have no clue when they do try to comment on what is actually going on.)

What are you saying here? There was nothing to discuss. That was no quality match. And you can see what is going on. What, you wanted a description like what CD Lee gave? Why? That’s a waste of time. And as far as my knowledge goes I’ll tell you this,
There are a lot more methods to ground fighting then the BJJ’s use. Grabbing and locking is not the end all be all of close fighting, it’s apart of it.

(Most of the people who ridicule the San Soo guy have never fought a real fight and those that have never have gone against a quality opponent. These people don’t realize that fights don’t happen the way that they happen when they are choreographed in the movies. Most people who fight in the high stress situation of a challenge match or real fight, especially if they aren’t used to doing it regularly, will lose 30 to 80% of their skills, no matter how highly trained they are.)

Man, You don’t know what you’re talking about. All of my fights have been real. F**k tournaments. This is not a game for me man. No hobby. Anything that has rules is a game, that’s your premise, not mine. I’m not trying to be a sportsman. You act like we’re new to this or something. We’re old school man. I’ve been doing this for 33yrs now. In the ghetto’s of NYC, which was my testing ground, you win or lose, live or die. This ain’t no movie. We speak from knowledge and experience. Bring you’re a$$ to NY.

(The reason I ask about videos, is that these people make claims about being such great fighting machines, but there is absolutely no evidence to back it up. The most you might see is one or two of them playing patty-cake on their web site. At least the San Soo fighter has actually fought a quality opponent, something 99% of those putting him down have never done. Not only that, he has the video to prove it.)

Patty-cake? You don’t know what you’re talking about. My Brother fought and won against the Beijing San Shou champion and it was video taped. My matches were privet. But forget that, you want proof? Come to NY. All the info is there. We’re not hiding. As I said if you we’re real you would have e-mailed us directly. We haven’t been on KFO for a minute. You already mentioned that you’ve come to our site. Why didn’t you post this crap there? Simple your trying to start some S**t. My brother wrote you directly, it took you a bit of time to respond because you were shocked that you got a response.

Also, I know your full of sh*t. First you said that you had a part in putting that fight together. Now your saying that he’s not apart of your camp. You said these two guys on the clip. Now you’re coming with a whole new crew. And you want us to pay for it.

Yo, you think we’re stupid and you’re the grand manipulator. It ain’t happenin man. You won’t use us to get paid. You don’t have the money to begin with. You want a guarantee from us so you can use it to get some other guys to put it up and get yourself a nice cut.
Let me make this clear for you.
You challenged us; We’re not putting up a dime. Outside of that what you sent my brother is cool with me too. I’ll sign. But, only with the two guys you mentioned to begin with. You think your slick. It ain’t working.
But remember this. You came to us not the other way around, if you want this to happen then make it happen. See we don’t have it like that to just take money that could be spent on our families or ourselves to put on this type of thing. Besides I don’t trust you. If you were serious, you handled it wrong from the start. My brother has told you where he stands now you know my stance on this. You’re trying to make a name for yourself off of us. We will not be used. Nor will I Come back up on KFO to respond to you. This is the only post I’ll make.

Bruno Lima Roch

11-28-2002, 10:02 AM

Hy guys, this is Bruno LIma Rocha, instructor of si-fu Marcello Teixeira talking from Brasil. I've read what you say in your post and saw the clip with a panther fist (ps: a strike that I love and do about 80 push ups with panther fist everyday). Man, the only thing I would like to tell you is that you can't throw the water and kill teh baby in the same time. 90% of what you said is what REALLY happens in NY, here, in Rio, In Sao Paulo and I suppose also in mainland China. The Nei Jia is a name, nothing more than a name and a coalition of teachers, real-fighters, but only a coalition of people who had the same concepts.
We, I say, all of the serious people who pratices CMA must specialize in his/her art, kill this nickname kung-fu, develop every art and try to achieve the notion of how the other guys are fighting nowadays. I say, the same surprise of eing taked-down by a BJJ (and I train this 4 times a week also) is more suprising to him of being hitted by a SERIOUS beng-chuen with all of the body moving on, in the same time, with an explosio combined with the breath. But, in other words, you're sadly right, **** right, but not for all of the "internal" people. Many "internals" asked my si-fu a question like this: - Hey Marcello, for which war you're sending your boys? And so, why do you train like if you live nowadays in a northern China village during the Boxers Revolution?
My teacher always says: in a fighting art, there's only one sincere and true way. Every man must find the true way of his martial art.

Thanks for the attention, send my regards to your hood (I live in a hood too), best regards
Bruno

paperweight

11-28-2002, 10:55 AM

BT--If you beat that MMA dude you got all the props by any Mother F out there.You would be an MA icon. No question of that.

I don't care what you train. That MMA dude is big as sh*t. I doubt ANYONE on this board could beat a John Marsh. First off he's a pro fighter training full time. Second he's big as crap and can take a blow a man of his size with ease. Third my man has skills.

Against a John Marsh, I doubt you could even get off a shot. All those stories of Dung Hai Chuan are nice but they never went up against a f*ck'n hulk that knows his sh*t. You have to get real about that too.

$5000 doesn't stop the John Marsh's of the world because he knows he's going to beat down the other guy.

Against the san soo guy I have no doubt that would be a match. But Marsh is in a different class.

HuangKaiVun

11-28-2002, 06:43 PM

Since when did blacktaoist say that he could beat Marsh?

All blacktaoist has done is criticize the technique of the kung fu man. Nowhere has he proclaimed himself as the destroyer of MMA fighters.

Since "you don't care what blacktaoist trains," paperweight, why don't YOU go fight blacktaoist yourself?

As that's the case, one like you needn't hide behind Marsh when it comes to putting down blacktaoist's kung fu.

I'm sure that you'd do fine against blacktaoist, given that you feel that he needs to "get real".

paperweight

11-28-2002, 08:07 PM

Yeah, BT implies that he is the real sh*t. He trains hard core "for real" "not a joke" "SIZE DOESN'T MATTER" "seeks out the "REAL masters who kick ass" "flies to dam China to learn" "trains like crazy" and rants about how everyone doesn't learn the real nei ja arts. He rants how he beats down masters in China but saves them "face" and how many masters in the US are "FAKES" and beats down their students.

If you say all this sh*t back it up. I'm saying show this skill and what all this training from "authentic teachers can do," show us what trips to the "source can do," claim the $5000 and become a MA icon who saves kung fu. Notice how he backs down from that.

When it comes down to it, BT is a professional hobbiest of MA. He may be able to hold his own in a street brawl, or a mugging...but against a trained PRO fighter like Marsh he has NOTHING, ZERO.

BT's motto should be "keep it real but NOT too real."

CD Lee

11-28-2002, 08:34 PM

Good time to bring this up I guess, but are not challenge matches for money, or fights for money like, totally illegal??? I thought they were for some reason. If they are, this forum could be used in litigation to show intent on both parties. Just a thought.

Also, the whole MMA TROLL thing is so old guys. Give it up. Saying a guy is 230, a hulk, and a MMA wrestler and you don't have a chance against him, well no YOU personally might not have a chance, thinking like that. That will get you killed in a mugging thinking like that. See, whether a guy like that can win or not, makes no difference. You have to believe you are going to win, damage, destroy him utterly. Otherwise, you best offer to be his little cabin boy and save yourself the trouble.

I don't see why it bothers you guys that some people are just not afraid of a guy like Marsh. Yeah he may win, could win, should win, whatever. All I am saying is that some of you guys have a very small mindset, almost guaranteeing you will lose fights against certain guys that you practically worship. You just cannot think that way and expect to have a chance. Trust me, you always have a chance. You always have a chance against anybody. Anybody.

Knifefighter

11-28-2002, 08:41 PM

Maoshan:

I’ve e-mailed BT several times, as you obviously know, based on what you mentioned further down in your post.

Anyway, as I said in my e-mail to BT, go back to the thread and read my original post regarding the fighters, the $5,0000, and who goes where. Take it to someone who has above a third grade level in reading comprehension and have them help you out if you need to. You can have him or her explain the how the phrases "I believe", "your lodging", "your plane ticket", and "to go home with" are usually interpreted.

Your reading tutor will probably explain to you that "…put up the $5,000…" means that you have to put up money as part of the deal. The tutor will probably also explain that BT e-mailing me first about the match would normally be construed as you coming to me, not the other way around.

As far as who fights whom, I explained to him about upcoming fight schedules, other MMA fighters who might be interested in fighting him, and told him about the kung fu guy and his backers (whom I have never been associated with, other than in negotiating for the challenge match and some correspondence afterwards regarding future matches). This might make more sense after you have your reading tutor help you and you have read my original post a few times more.

In terms of what actually happened in the fight, why is discussing the particular techniques a waste of time (assuming you have a clue about what was actually going on)? Don’t you think you could learn more by discussing how and what blow landed to cause John’s nose to be bleeding so profusely (or did you internet video analysis experts miss that because it happened too fast for you)? Wouldn’t it be a better learning experience to find out why John didn’t get the mount or knee ride (or don't you understand that a groundfighter is usually looking for these positions) and why he didn’t use headbutts? Couldn’t people learn a thing or two about defending against groundfighters if you talked about how the finishing Americana arm lock could have been defended and countered (or maybe you didn't understand how the arm lock was set up and that there was ample warning that is was coming)?

Or is it more productive to just b!tch and moan about what crappy technique the guy had and how tough you are and what invincible short power and rooting you have?

And long as I’m talking about productive use of time here, since you supposedly have the video display of BT’s awesome fighting prowess, why not post it for everyone on the internet to critique, just as the kung fu practitioner posted his.

CD Lee:
You're right, once again. Mindset is important. However, unless you've faced someone with John's size, skills, and overall athletecism in an NHB fight, I guarantee you will be surprised at how hard it is to keep your "winning" mindset in that situation.

CD Lee

11-28-2002, 08:47 PM

I don't care what you train. That MMA dude is big as sh*t. I doubt ANYONE on this board could beat a John Marsh. First off he's a pro fighter training full time. Second he's big as crap and can take a blow a man of his size with ease. Third my man has skills.

While I am on this...I just want to say again. This kind of thinking is what will lose you the fight before it ever starts. Think of what your mind will tell your body once he moves at you. It MUST tell you to tighten up, to cover up, to panic. Your mind thinks, your body acts. Your @ss hits the pavement.

Even professional fighters have been killed and beaten in street fights. Check boxers for a history on that. Do you think the pro boxers scared the guys who beat them on the street or shot them or stabbed them. Look, the guys that have intent, have a lot going for them. This goes both ways. Bad guys can beat good guys with a lot more skills by having extreemly violent intent. Intent to kill. This is difficult for decent people to comprehend. But rest assured, FEAR coupled with DOUBT and DISBELIEF in your ability to win or live, will cripple you before you start in a fight.

So you see, it means nothing that you will actually win or lose in a fight or mugging. It has no bearing. You MUST believe you will win or survive. You must know this right now, so you don't ponder it later when you are surprised in the dark. Otherwise, your MA skill is chained up in a little room. We have to train our minds as well as our bodies. Hey, my rant, but I believe this is important for all of us. Don't sell yourself short.