Need help with fighting [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Golden Arms

11-05-2002, 05:00 PM

Not sure I totally agree with Yenhoi on this. This is just my opinion though. One thing commonly said by martial arts players that have been practicing for 20-30+ years is that "many paths lead up the same mountian" Ie: Practicing a hard art leads to softness, practicing a softer art adds in the hard aspects later, etc. Forms, stancework, fighting, developing your senses, relaxation, eyes, and many other things all manifest in how you move, think and feel when you fight. My best advice to ANY martial artist including myself, is to practice the BASICS. You most likely will never reach a point where you are not practicing them in fact, and they will always involve and help you build a strong personal style up from them. In fact arts like Hsing I and other internals spend much of their time just standing in one stance, yet this improves MANY things relating to their styles. So to put it bluntly..practice practice practice, and always reevaluate what you already know when you learn something new.

Fu-Pow

11-05-2002, 05:23 PM

You will get worse before you get better.

Every individual possesses some instinctual fighting ability. When you start learning a MA you essentially erase that instinct and all the bad habits that go along with it that would limit your potential as a fighter. There will be a time when you realize your old way of fighting/moving was limiting/ineffective and you "try" to use your new techniques/ways of moving. However, you have not yet " mastered" the new methods so they feel awkward. Continue to persevere and train hard and you will make it through this period. The techniques you are learning will become so ingrained in you that they will become your instinctual way to fighting/moving. Then you can use them effectively in real combat. This is called the "no mind."

There have been time in sparring when I have used technique almost directly from forms and I didn't even realize it until afterwards and I analzyed what I did.

Hung Ga is an awesome system. If you have a qualified teacher and are dedicated you can reach a very high level of achievement and fighting ability in this art.

Golden Arms

11-05-2002, 05:46 PM

Good Point Fu Pow, Its a nice feeling to not have any idea what you are going to do and then to see something you may not have even ever thought of conciously as a certain application just pop out of you when you think about it later.

DrunkenMunky

11-05-2002, 06:36 PM

Wow thanks for all your help. Right now I'm working on two man drills a lot, like someone throws a punch and I do such and such technique until I get familiar with it and then I move on. My instructor says that one day everything will "click" and my fighting will be much better. We spar about one a week for about 2 hours, is that enough pratice? Thanks again for all your help =).

TaoBoy

11-05-2002, 08:47 PM

Practice, practice, practice, practice.

Practice your techniques.
Practice your forms.
Practice your partner work.
Practice your sparring.

It sounds a lot simpler than it is! :)

guohuen

11-06-2002, 03:37 PM

Nice post Fu-Pow.

Martial Joe

11-06-2002, 05:53 PM

Work on your basics homey.

HuangKaiVun

11-07-2002, 10:49 AM

In Hung Ga, one must know his applications.

Take the opening Hung Ga salute for instance. It can be many things:

1) grab the guy, knee to the groin
2) step in, reverse punch
3) grab head, apply knuckle to temple
4) grab shoulders, bite the opponent
5) parry opponent's lead hand, strike armpit or head
6) block incoming strike with either arm or leg
7) forward choke
9) "ready" position for combat
10) other moves - make them up as you go along

When doing the form alone, one must imagine doing it on an opponent - and then imagine it being done to oneself.

Knowing the counter is just as important as knowing the move.

Nick Lo

11-07-2002, 11:00 AM

WOW!!! :eek:
Now you're a Hung Gar sifu Huang?
After only one lesson? :rolleyes:

Either you've got the hugest learning curve EVER or you'r the biggest Hungabee I've ever seen...

"10) other moves - make them up as you go along"
:rolleyes: hmmmm... your normal M.O. huh Huang?

I woulda expected telling the kid to train what he learns in class, outta class a lot; or bugging his sifu with questions on what he should/needs to work on..... but NOT trying to teach the kid hung gar appz....BOLD...

HuangKaiVun

11-08-2002, 01:25 PM

So Nick, my boy, when are we going to fight?

As always, you're still deathly afraid to face me. Where's your contact information so that I can demonstrate the above moves on you?

My door remains open to you, and I'd love to challenge you in Hawaii.

Who is your sifu anyway, Nick? I want to have a long hard talk with him.

And while you're at it, why don't you tell us why the moves I posted above WOULDN'T work?

omarthefish

11-11-2002, 11:36 PM

Guohen,

ARE YOU NUTS ! ? TIT SIN KUEN ? ! ?

The guy said he's only been at this for about 10 months. Tit Sin Kuen is for, like, after about 10 years maybe.

Huangkaivun,

I have serious reservations about the apllicability of that salute for any of the uses you mentioned except for number 5 and even for number five it's only o.k. Mainly it's just a salute. I do like the block and punch idea but mostly just in principle.

1) grab the guy, knee to the groin - twist stance ---> hanging stance. Where's the knee?

2) step in, reverse punch ---> maybee if you interpret 'reverse punch very liberally. There's no bow stance so I see no reverse punch.

3) grab head, apply knuckle to temple ---> has posibilities but it's really a stretch to turn that first block into a grab. . . on second thought , what the hell.

4) grab shoulders, bite the opponent ---> please don't include biting as an actual technique.

5) parry opponent's lead hand, strike armpit or head ---> this is the one i like . . . sort of.

6) block incoming strike with either arm or leg ---> not clear how this is different from number 5. Actually number 2 maybe should get lumped in with number 5 as if you accept that punch as a reverse punch then the two tyechniques are the same.

7) forward choke ---> What ? How? What are you talking about?

9) "ready" position for combat ---> either you mean this is just a salute or your nuts.

10) other moves - make them up as you go along ---> If this is what you come up with stay away from making up your own moves.

I do give points for creativity and using your imagination during practice.

Back on topic:

At ten months I wouldn't worry about sparring much. Just get the stances and basic techniques down. The two person sets will come later and then sparring. There is a logical progression to be followed.

1. solo forms - creating the raw materials. gives you a vocabulary.
2. 2 person forms - linckages, applications, reactions, timing etc.
3. free sparring.

There are combos to be drilled and other exercises but each in it's own time. Don't get ahead of yourself. You may learn to fight quicker but it won't be Hung-gar. If you don't have the patience, you are better of going to a kickboxiong gym where you can start sparring from the get-go.

HuangKaiVun

11-12-2002, 05:50 PM

omarthefish, you're obviously a lineage and categories guy.

Me, I was trained Hung Ga as a FIGHTER. And this is how I fight using the salute:

1) The traditional Hung Ga salute is done on one leg. The OTHER leg, bent, can be a kick or a knee.

2) Typically, the opening salute is done with a fist in one hand with an open palm in the other. The open palm can be used to target or parry the opponent, the fist can be used to strike. This is a great way to get by a guy's guard, and styles like Wing Chun and Hsing Yi (among others) use this as well.

3) When you are grappling, particularly in close quarters or on the ground, often the opponent's head is well within your reach. By focusing a single knuckle on the fist hand, you can attack the temple and injure the temporal artery. This technique works well in headlock as well (head noogie).

4) What is this "biting is not an actual technique" stuff? Some guy trying to kill you attacks, you BITE HIM. This is one of the most effective self-defense techniques there is. Try telling that to any woman who successfully used a bite to extricate herself from a would-be rapist - she'll bite YOU. Or try telling it to Paul Vunak, who put the bite on his "Street Safe" video.

6) Why should you even care? In a real sparring situation, you don't even have time to think through this stuff. You just DO IT and that's that.

7) When astride an opponent (you're in the "mount" position), you can use the opponent's collar to choke him. The fist holds the lapel and the other arm lends either support or guards the choker. The Gracies use this move as well, though they use more of an X-motion.

9) In old China, this stance was the way for saluting to opponents in a way that they couldn't sucker punch you. In the 21st century, it's typical for a guy to put more weight on one leg and hold his hands at chest level. It doesn't look exactly like the form, but only nonfighters would be dumb enough to fight EXACTLY like the form prescribes.

10) You're right. I ought to stay away from making these moves. Heaven forbid I pull them on some guy trying to take me out - I might HURT HIM.

You talk, I spar. And that's that.

omarthefish

11-12-2002, 10:28 PM

Well, I'll admit I do like tracing lineages :) I like to know what's transmitted and what's just your personal take although I'm not sure how it's relevant here. Are you trying to imply that if you make a point of learning the history of your art you can't fight?

I don't know what you mean by 'a categories guy'at all. Feel free to elaborate. It sounds like your saying I'm close minded but if you meant something nicer please let me know.

1) The traditional Hung Ga salute is done on one leg. The OTHER leg, bent, can be a kick or a knee.

As a 'lineage guy'you think I'm not aware of how the traditonal salute is done? I suppose your ceraintly in position for a snapkick. . . I just think you shouldn't make to much out of this salute.

2) Typically, the opening salute is done with a fist in one hand with an open palm in the other. . .

Don't get to worked up. I'm just quibbling over calling it a reverse punch. If the terminology is not clear than BBS communication is an exercise in futility. I've always thought of a 'reverse punch'as being in a classic bow stance.

3) When you are grappling, particularly in close quarters or on the ground, often the opponent's head is well within your reach. . .

I already agreed that this had possibilities. I think that the hanging stance is suicide if your grappling.

7) When astride an opponent (you're in the "mount" position) . . .

What? This is just way to much of a stretch. Now the salute can be interpreted as a part of ground fightong. That opening couldn't be ****her away from a choke.

9) In old China, this stance . . .

I'm sticking with my original comment on this one. You could certainly change it and then make it a 'ready' stance, but then it's NOT the opening move.

10) You're right. I ought to stay away from making these moves. Heaven forbid I pull them on some guy trying to take me out - I might HURT HIM.

You certainly might. You also could do that just from experimenting with your friends and trying out all sorts of your own personal made up combinations. That doesn't mean they're there in the form.

You talk, I spar. And that's that.

This comment is just a cheap shot. To me it demonstates a kind of close mindedness I feel you implied I had by labeling me as a 'lineage guy' or a 'categories guy'

How do you know how I train? Some people talk, some spar, some actually fight. Is it because Idisagree strongly on your interpretations that I must be ignorant of the practical aspects? Perhaps it's because I said DM shouldn't be to axious to spar to early.

I believe in making every effort to grasp the original flavor of a given style of fighting. In the end we all must find our own way but as you know, there is more to Hung-gar than just a collection of external movements. There are principles at work and if you try to ruch into sparring to early or to fast you will probably learn to fight but you won't learn what HUNG GAR has to say about fighting. You will learn much faster and more effectively by just taking the standard MMA mix of Thai boxing, wresting/Judo and western boxing.

I take issue with many of your suggestions because if you are
fighting as opposed to sparring they will put you in a world of trouble.

HuangKaiVun

11-16-2002, 07:33 PM

More like they'll get you out of a world of trouble, which is the whole point of learning fast effective techniques.

For every technique I have listed that you don't like, I can think of plenty of other professionals who USE this stuff day in and day out.

Confucius say "The teacher holds up one corner, the student comes up with the other three". Just because you can't accept something to work doesn't mean that it won't - particularly in the hands of somebody who CAN make it work.

Eventually, you'll realize that Hung Ga isn't about adhering to form and lineage.

You'll realize that Hung Ga is about realizing YOUR potential, not about copying others.

omarthefish

11-16-2002, 09:24 PM

They may be used by professionals every day but that is completely irrelevant to wether or not they are contained with the opening movements to the form.

"Getting you out of a world of trouble", may be the whole point of learning fast effective techniques but learning fast effective techniques is not the whole point of Hung Gar. I repeat: If your primary goal is to learn to fight quickly, you are better off with the standard MMA mix.

Your quote is somebody elses translation from something said by one of Confucious's students, Chen Kung. He said, "wen yi de san" Literally translated it means, "ask 1 get 3".

I love the irony of using Confucious to support freedom from tradition and creativity in your interpretations of movements.

While, out of context, it can be seen to be an argument for extrapolating from techniques on your own, in context it suggests more that you should be able to use the information learned in one field of study and apply it to others. Bo Yu asks Chen Kung how he learned about rites and social customs and good speech if he only studied poetry. Chen Kung replies, "Ask 1 get 3. By studying poetry, I learned about poetry, rites and the proper relationship between student and teacher."

When learning a technique you should certainly be sensitive to priniciples which may apply to other techniques or situations but the original techniques is still the original technique. If it stimulates you imagination, good for you, but that stuff is just what you made up on ytour own wether it works or not.

Eventually maybe you'll realize that a superficial similarity between techniques doesn't make for a valid interpretation.

Eventually maybe you will realize that includes learning the original intent behind the forms and includes lineage.

Eventually maybe you'll realize some of the benifits of learning what tradition has to say on certain subjects.

Eventually maybe you'll realize that copying others is the main way we learn and does not interfere with your ability to create new things.

Lastly, how does any of this have to do with the original question about sparring? Specifically, "having trouble applying them while I am sparring." This argument about what is or is not in the form is off topic. I apologize for that.

SevenStar

11-17-2002, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by DrunkenMunky
I've been taking Hung gar for about 10 months now and I've learned a lot of the basics but I'm having trouble applying them while I am sparring. I feel like I haven't progressed since I started, is that a bad sign? Are there any tips to improve my fighting? Are there any special drills or forms to help me become a better fighter?

If you don't think you've progressed ANY in ten months, then yes, that is a bad sign. It shouldn't take you that long to notice progress. To help make yourself a better fighter, analyze yourself - write it down. I find that helpful. you want to:

1. Identify flaws in your fighting
2. Identify strong points
3. Determine how you can improve the weaknesses
4. put it all together

Basically, you must have a plan, and you have to train. Hard. No quick and dirty shortcuts. You stated that you can't apply the basics while fighting. Put that in your analysis. That alone tells me that you either aren't drilling them enough or aren't drilling them properly. Have you brought this issue to your sifu? If so, what did he say?

HuangKaiVun

11-17-2002, 09:44 AM

omarthefish, those were very well-worded arguments.

The trouble is that making up one's own applications in Hung Ga has EVERYTHING TO DO with sparring.

I see that you're learning Hung Ga just for the sake of learning Hung Ga. Once again, I learn Hung Ga to FIGHT.

Copying others may be the only way YOU learn, but that's not the case for many others. Forget not that there would be no Hung Ga if somebody didn't invent it. SOMEBODY invented it, and somebody added to it. Lam Tsai Wing even added his own Saber set to the style to deal with Western weaponry.

I'm as traditional as they come, which means that I understand the need to make up one's own applications as well as using that from the past. The true traditional way is to adjust to new situations regardless of the "rules".

When you actually fight, you'll be confronted by many strange situations that even the best training cannot totally prepare a person for. That's where a fighter has to innovate his own approach to things. No teacher can do that for a student - a student must come up with his own answers on the fly. THIS is what Hung Ga is supposed to teach.

Valid? Ask anybody who has really fought and they'll tell you that the only "valid" thing is that which WORKS.

You need to get in the ring and SPAR, omarthefish.

You'll see and feel what I'm talking about - THE HARD WAY.

omarthefish

11-17-2002, 08:29 PM

I see that you're learning Hung Ga just for the sake of learning Hung Ga. Once again, I learn Hung Ga to FIGHT.

That is probably true. I started out in gong-fu to learn to fight. I have done PLENTY of sparring. Eventually I got bored with that. I could list a dozen reasons why I train gong-fu. (actually since my move to China I've switched from Hung Gar to Baji ) Hung-gar is worth learning for it's own sake. For pure fighting - BJJ is probably better. I am not even saying I feel it is superior for fighting but the learning curve is quicker. Thai Boxing is also almost pure fighting. It is primarily in the longer term that a traditional art rewards you.

Copying others may be the only way YOU learn, but that's not the case for many others . . .

I said copying is the MAIN way we learn. We start by copying. It's how we learned to speak. It's how we learned to walk. Later we move on to creating. I also believe there is nothing new under the sun.Just new combinations of old stuff. From yin and yang to the "ten thousand things". 000101110110101010101 . . . .

You need to get in the ring and SPAR, omarthefish.

I agree and I do . . . er . . did. Not here in China. I did a lot more sparring back in San Francisco.

Sevenstar,
Good post. good suggestions.

I find that for each sparring session it is helpfull to work on small specific goals. Instead of trying to get the whole thing down at once. eg:

1. today I am only going to concentrate on outflanking him. He attacks - I step IN diagonally.
2. today I am going to concentrates on combo x,y,z. Whatever he throws I am going to return this 3 hit combo.
3. today I am going to concentrate on bridging the gap. I am going to spar with that tall guy with the huge reach and try to get inside.
3. today I WILL NOT DROP MY LEFT when I shoot out my right.

etc.

HuangKaiVun,
It's been a pleasure debating with you. I don't often get to disagree with someone that strongly and still maintain a civil tone. I thought you were gonna drop to more name calling but you didn't. I'm gonna try and keep directly to the topic from here out.

Later.;)

Ego_Extrodinaire

11-18-2002, 07:04 AM

HuangkaiVun:

What do you know about fighting when you posted in the praying mantis section that the mantis hooks of a novice twarted your kung fu and you got your azz whooped. I know you talk and talk too much for your own good. Don't forget to front up with the goods, like what you haven't done eventhough you have issued a challenge to a cripple. I'll elaborate on this point if need be.

Learning Hung gar to fight is like going for a p1ss when what you really want to do is a sh1t. Hung gar is not a fightin g style and a ground fighter would whoop you any day. I recollect you saying that you have not sparred against a BJJ. Let me tell you they can be formidable.

Omarthefish:

The fact that you got bored with sparring with Hungar is probably because you have learned all there is to know about hung gar. Your move to Baji is a good one. It is an excellent fighting style and you'll do well by training hard in it.

Remembering that even the special forces in china today train in a mixture of northern kung fu. one of them is Baji.

omarthefish

11-18-2002, 10:23 PM

Ego,

I'll play along.

Hung Gar is just about the most brutally effective fighting style I've come across in my 15 years of study.

You recollect incorectly.

I have sparred with both wrestlers and BJJ guys. The first time out I did indeed get whooped. But that was in a Judo class where we were only wrestling. It took a couple months to get used to it. Since then I have faced both and faired well. It just takes a tiny bit of cross training. You don't even have to learn the grappling arts in their entirety. Just a few basics and things to look out for.

Of all the Chinese arts, Hung-gar is one of the best vs. grapplers. It has more stand-up grappling than hitting. Other styles that come to mind as being well suited to deal with grapplers would be taiji, bagua and southern mantis.

You said, "The fact that you got bored with sparring with Hungar is probably because you have learned all there is to know about hung gar. "

I never said I got bored sparring with Hung Gar. I just said I got bored with mostly sparring. There's more to life to sparring and there are many things you won't learn sparring. There are also mistakes you can ingrain during sparring. Sparring will teach you mostly to fight like a kickboxer. You will tend to avoid the parts of your art which make it distinctive. You will reduce an art as varied and multifaceted as Hung Gar to a collection of boxing style punches with the occasional grab and low kick added in for flavor.

Lastly, what special forces? Could you give me a source I could refer to. I know the bodyguards to the last emperor and also to Chiang Kai Shek were my Shishu but I have not been able to locate any justification to the claim that "special forces" in China train in a mixture of northern and Baji. The capital, Beijing is in the north so northern shaolin would make sense but from I've seen military personel are basically just trained in basic sanda techniques and an ad hoc mixture of chin na depending on what the trainer has the most experience with.

I have made the switch to Baji because I live in Northwest China and there is very little SOUTHERN style Gong-fu here in NORTHERN China.

I spent about 8 Years in Hung Gar and it was VERY difficult to make the decision to leave, especially without learning the coveted iron wire set. Maybe when I get back to the states I will have my chance.

Ego_Extrodinaire

11-19-2002, 02:50 AM

Omarthefish:

I had posted that URL before, that was months ago where there was a debate between northern and southern kung fu - which was better.

Anyway, serious martial artist do northern kung fu. You can check out this URL.

http://www.thegompa.com/am/drpresume.htm

Hunggar is not really that brutal. It is stiff and slow. You'll realize that once you'd had a bit more experience in Baji.

omarthefish

11-19-2002, 04:05 AM

Just heading out the door so I'll make it quick and post later.

John Painter? I've got at least one of his videos. It's o.k. I'm sorry to hear the Hung Gar to have seen was so half assed. I have no idea how this URL is supposed to support your claim that serious martial artists do northern gong fu. It's a ridiculous statement. Chang Chuan is northern but IMHO hardly compares to something as nitty griity as Hung Gar, Wing Chun or Southern Mantis.

A more accurate statement would be that Northern Chinese study Northern styles of Gong fu. I actually do think Baji has a few things on Hung Gar but Hung Gar still rocks. I have also practiced Bagua for about 5 years. John Painters Bagua is practical but unimpressive compared to what I've seen.

I'll give you more specifics later when I have time.

omarthefish

11-19-2002, 09:58 PM

never mind.

I just got finished reading a bunch of ego's old posts. I didn't realize who I was talking too.

Ego_Extrodinaire

11-20-2002, 04:48 AM

Omarthefish:

Practical should be good enough for you. In any case your statement is incorrect, John is American and not Chinese. He has a good experience from his CV. There are others who have equally as good a CV and they do Northern Kung fu. some chinese some not. Like I said, I don't have that URL which shows the chinese special forces training northern kung fu. If you can find it in one of my older post do take a look.

Hung Gar doesn't rock, it hits rock bottom when it comes to usefulness. I have vanquished many a hung gar player. There's also a hung gar sifu is who is too chicken to front up to his own challenge agaisnt me.

Jables

11-20-2002, 11:30 AM

Troll.

That is all.

omarthefish

11-20-2002, 09:55 PM

Ego,

Are you retarded or did you just get hit in the head too many times? Where did I say The White AMERICAN texas ranger Painter was Chinese? Then you go on about his CV? Like that has a something to do with his martial ability. He did mention stufying bagua for 10 years. Good for him. He has almost as much training as me. :)

This is officially my last contribution to the troll. Sorry to see this thread die.

Ego_Extrodinaire

11-21-2002, 06:42 AM

Omarthefish:

"I have no idea how this URL is supposed to support your claim that serious martial artists do northern gong fu. It's a ridiculous statement. A more accurate statement would be that Northern Chinese study Northern styles of Gong fu."

You have no idea. period! Doesn't John Painter prove my point. A) he is a serious martial artist b) he is not chinese.

Like I said earlier, serious martial artist study nothern kung fu then you go on about this nothern kung fu for northern chinese king of sh1t.

Basically you don't even know what you yourself had written. If I'm a retard, you won't even have an a$$ for a head. Hung Gar is a vanquished style and so is Wing Chun. so stff, slow and one dimensional.

friday

11-21-2002, 08:28 AM

hmmm i'll show u some kung fu thats better than southern stuff.
Ego/kelvin chan/goki primate himself in action
displaying the hard earned skills 'northern chicken legs kung fu'

http://www.geocities.com/goktimus/Martial.html

u should see how lethal he is against all the primary kids at chifley college. Ego can really kick some butt. :) so if u want any martial arts performances in sydney. u know who to call.

Ego Minimus!!!
Kelvin Chumpy!!!

omarthefish

11-23-2002, 09:20 PM

Sometimes I used to like to drill 'slow sparring' .

Two people square off. 'A' throws a slow (not slow motion just kinda light and easy) punch.

'B' parries and counterattacks. 'A' counters . . back and forth.

It can be 'a' throws 3 hits and then 'b' attacks or whatever number you want. The goal is not to score but to find what attacks/parried flow comfortable from what positions.

If A's attack is blocked/parried in a clumsy fasion, A should just leave the hand out ther untill B finds a better method. Slowly at first and gradually faster.

It's a bit like learning to play tennis. Sometimes a begginer just wants to volleyto get a feel for the game. Nobodys really trying to score, just keep a good volley going. As the players get better they can gradually increase the speed, continuity and general intensity of the attacks.

Jables

11-24-2002, 12:42 AM

Omarthefish

We train that way at our kwoon, and I've found it to be very beneficial. It's easier to see the correct usage of combos and blocks when done at a slower or even lighter pace. From my personal experience, I know how hard I can hit, and therefore if I go slower or lighter it definately makes it easier to speed up and apply.

HuangKaiVun

11-24-2002, 07:15 PM

Seems that we are in AGREEMENT, omarthefish.

You just train with a different emphasis, that's all. I totally get and respect that.

But there's one thing I don't completely agree on - and that's your quote that "BJJ is better".

In the octagon where a person can't claw and bite, yes. In the STREET, I'm not so sure.

Don't mess with ego, omarthefish.

His real name is "Kelvin Chan" and he does Southern influenced Northern Praying Mantis.

Kelvin, as you can see from his website, is actually a Southern style martial artist himself.

omarthefish

11-25-2002, 04:38 AM

I'm just starting to learn who are the personalities on this board.

And notice I really do qualify what I mean by 'better'. If you just look at what your gonna be able to use in say a 3 to 6 month period . . . I'll bet on the BJJ'ers every time. Thai boxers can kick @$$ in 3 months if they train hard. I'm not even saying Hung Gar is a ten year program or anything. It's just more versitile and you've got a broader curriculum so naturally it's gonna take a little longer to get up to speed.

I still don't even want to bother with the whole biting thing. . . I almost said 'CLAWING-biting thing', but then I remembered TIGER-crane. Duh.

We kinda got off on the wrong foot, but hey, so what. We'll jsut have to disagree on a few things. That's what makes life interesting.

Ego_Extrodinaire

11-25-2002, 06:42 AM

HuangkaiVun:

First things first, I'm not Kelvin chan and I don't maintain a web page. You on the other hand don't dare front up to your own challenge and face me.

It is so typical that you go on about the clawing thing. The only difference between karate and hung gar is the claws you have at the end. Panther fist, tiger claw, dragon claw (bigger version of tiger claw), snake's head, crane beak - and that's it. All the movements underpinning all of your animal forms are identical - except for the hand configuration.

You haven't sparred against a BJJ let alone step foot in an octogan. your tiger claw and fancy uniform will do you no good. absolutely none at all.

Omarthefish:

What you're saying is you need to stay out of trouble for 10 years if you do Hung Gar before you can defend yourself. Say you learn at the age of 20, you have to wait till you're 30. How stupid is that. In that time you can learn BJJ and kick boxing, go hard core in the Octogan if you want and sit around wait another 9 years before a Hung Gar student who trained the same time as you can meet your challenge.

Hung Gar is such a stupid style. I mean you can accomplish your fighting skills in 3 months. Why do you even bother about Hung Gar - is it the fancy uniforms?

Jables

11-25-2002, 07:39 AM

The sad thing is, you are kelvin chan. I've seen the proof. I've seen the one thread where you play all three roles, kelvin, goktimus, and ego, and you aren't too good about differentiating between the three. For HKV to "front up to his own challenge" he would have to fly to australia. If you'd like to continue to deny it I'll go find the link and put it in this thread so you can ignore it in here as well as the other threads that you've started to ignore.

Your ignorance shows through every time you post. Why people actually humor you is beyond me.

HuangKaiVun

11-25-2002, 01:38 PM

I did understand what you meant by "better", omarthefish.

99.9999% of the time, I'd agree with you about Hung Ga being slower to learn than other styles for combat. That's the way it is being taught nowadays.

Despite that, though, a lot of Hung Ga moves can readily and quickly be adapted to combat situations. Your mentioned "tiger" claw hand is and has been quickly adapted for street usage by military units, certain police forces, and various civilian groups. It's not necessarily taught as "tiger palm", but a claw to the face can hurt anybody.

Certainly the tools to hurt anybody are contained in any of the 5 major Hung Ga empty hand sets. Personally, my favorite is the Tiet Sin set because of its power training and basic hand postures.

I think it's more a matter of how it's taught and practiced as opposed to the art itself being slow to learn.

Kelvin, I'd love to fight you in what you call "Manhatten" :rolleyes:

If you're really from New Jersey, then tell me what structures one can see on the left from the New Jersey Turnpike going south right after getting out of the Holland Tunnel.

And what's the nickname for New Jersey, anyway?

If you answer these correctly, I'll have more questions for you. After all, I have RELATIVES in New Jersey.

omarthefish

11-25-2002, 10:05 PM

claws, palm strikes comination of the above yeah, yeah.

Can't speak on Tit Sien Kuen, my Sifu typically teaches it only after 7 or 8 years. That's recently. It used to be about a 10 year wait. I also want to be on record as having said quite specifically you DONT need to train for 10 years to use the stuff. I was jsut about due to learn it (Tit Sien) and then I hopped off to China.

My school was pretty flexible. No real set order for learning most stuff. The order you learned the core sets was set but your progress in that department could be interrupted at any time by all sorts of reasons. Weapon sets, learning a northern set, learning a two man set. Those sorts of things could happen just whenever Sifu felt it was appropriate and in no apparent set order of progression.

As for quickly adaptable stuff, I goto a local gym here in China to use the heavy bag to practice mostly hung gar and they all think I'm working on western style boxing. Closed fists instead of 'beaks' and 'claws'. But regardless of how you train, it jsut takes a while to develope enough root to avoid being taken down by even a beggining wrestler. If you did thai boxing, you'd be just throwing a thousand round kicks a day and that one technique alone could carry you through a ton of fights. I train it myself just because it's such a simple no brainer under pressure.

Tit Sien is rad but I'll jsut have to wait. The basic internal stuff is there in sup yin anyways. I think it's a bit ill advised to go on about Tit Sien Kuen to much in a forum like this. Some folks have made themselves really sick trying to learn it on their own. Without a proper guide that kind of internal training is more dangerous than something simple like zhan zhuang. The worst to come of poor taiji training is lousy useless gong-fu. Poor Tit Sien training could leave you with a lousy useless liver.

fgxpanzerz

11-25-2002, 11:38 PM

This is great. Eight years and you never learned the wire form? The problem with martial arts training is that there aren't any straght answers. Does sparring equal fighting? Some say yes, some say no. IF you're good at sparring, are u a good fighter? AGain, no answer. Sparring seems very limited to me. The gear just messes u up. Cant use certain hand strikes, cant see past helmet, less fear because you have the gear on...etc. Hung gar is a good system to learn to fight but it does take a while. Some people study for years and still cant fight. The way I see it, if I never become a good fighter, atleast the forms and what not kept me healthy. I mean, come on. Do any of us really need to become super saiyans? Where I live, I never see fights. Yeah, i might get into a scuffle eventually, but I dont expect to for a long time. I prefer light contact sparring without gear rather than just boxing with gear on. how long has it been since I posted? a long time. Oh ya, before I forget. Hung gar has a lot of grappling. Tons! A lot of it is a different kind if grappling than what I've typically seen. I've seen a bunch of people throwing each other over their shoulders, bending wrists, and elbows. Ripping skin is a form of grappling as well.

cha kuen

11-26-2002, 12:42 AM

I would say that strategy and the psychological/emotional content are very important things to learn about when fighting.

kung fu books (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25)

Ego_Extrodinaire

11-26-2002, 02:35 AM

HuangKaiVun:

I'm not here to justify where I live, but I think you need to justify to your students as sifu why slow teaching is the way hung gar is being taught nowadays? That I would also like to know.

I know other styles claw when need be. But why call yours a tiger claw or a dragon claw. Shouldn't you be concentrating (as sifu) on claw usage rather than fancy names?

What do you do in the form that could risk getting a lousy liver? doesn't make sense. Joint damage from hard impact work - yes, but liver - commmmme onnn man! Can't you think of a better excuse to delay your students from learning that form for 10 years?

Omarthefish:

Why wait 7 or 8 years? Shouldn't your sifu teach according to ability rather than the time you've been a member of the school. Suppose a person trains 4 times a week instead of 1, does it mean he or she needs to spend 4 times the equivalent hour as the one who trains once a week before learning that form?

Have you told your sifu that what he is doing is stupid? spend me his email I'll tell him myself - on your behalf.

fgxpanzerz:

When I was training kungfu, I look for fights. Taking your example of "super seyences", isn't it through difficult fights that they reach higher levels of competence? I will keep coming back to the opponent until he is defeated, then I will move on to the next and the next. Too bad a car accident took that away from me.

If I want to keep fit, I might go to the gym, work out on weights and cardio. Much better than forms. i hate people who train forms and can't fight.

omarthefish

11-26-2002, 06:30 AM

fgxpanzerz,

This is great. Eight years and you never learned the wire form?

Without being able to see or hear you I actually can't tell if that is sarcasm or you actually think that's a good thing.

Ego,

I really want to argue with you but your posts are getting so far removed from the posts they are commenting on it's hard to see what it is your saying. Where did you pull this mysterious 'have to wait 10 years'line out of. What do you think I was doing for those 7 or 8 years?

Did you get traumatized by 3 star arm training so bad that now all you can do is type. . . oh I forgot your a NORTHERN stylist you probably like to use your feet . :D Put the knitting needles down ya little green man and get back to your silly northern troll style. :p

Geezer

11-26-2002, 06:36 AM

EGO/GOKTIMUS PRIME Example,

http://www.geocities.com/goktimus/Horse.JPG

Shoalin Kids Example,

http://www.shaolin.nl/tumb/shaolinnl0173.jpg

What's wrong with this "Picture":confused:

Man, Ego you've been out done by a kid:D

HuangKaiVun

11-26-2002, 02:26 PM

Kelvin/Ego/Goktimus, you're sinking deeper.

You still haven't shown me you're from New Jersey.

What really frightens me is that you actually dare to teach people.

You should be banned from education.

I see nothing wrong with not having learned the Iron Wire set after 8 years.

There are guys that train nothing but one set and they fight or do sets great.

It's not what one knows, it's how he does it that counts.

Ego_Extrodinaire

11-29-2002, 04:48 PM

Omarthefish:

"Can't speak on Tit Sien Kuen, my Sifu typically teaches it only after 7 or 8 years. That's recently. It used to be about a 10 year wait."

Did your head get tramatized so much from thinking that you forgot what you posted earlier - the 10 year wait. Where did I pull it ou off you asked? from your very own a$$.

HunangKaiVun:

Now now, stop trying to shift the attention from the fact that you're the chicken you is too afraid to go though with your own challenge. It's best for your midgit taiwanese self to apolopgize to us all.

Tid Sin is nothing more that static breating exercises where the person tries to make animal noises and hold hand positions to mimick that of a tiger, leapord, snake, dragon and crane.

This can hardly be considered to be high level kung fu. Perhaps a slap on the forhwead would wake Tid Sin players out of their self induced trance.

To answer your question, It is not my style to splash my personal details on the internet. That is for you to do so that you can be redicued by the likes of wushu chic.

To answer yoiu kung fu related question, waiting 8 years before learning the set does not account for the abilities of the individual or their training intensity. The only people I teach are the likes of you on this forum and you still have much to learn boy.

omarthefish

11-29-2002, 07:06 PM

Yes my poor gentle EGO. I did say you typically have to wait up to 10 years to learn Tit Sin. I did not however say anything about waiting 10 years to use Hung Gar in a practical way.

Have your arms healed yet from your brief bout with southern shaolin training. I read about your trauma on another thread.:( I guess that would make you a bruised Ego :D

It's o.k. Ego. You'll be fine eventually.

What style did you say you train in? Somehow I haven't managed to find anything about training or background on your profile. Why haven't you manufactured imaginary training to match your imaginary expertise?

Ego_Extrodinaire

11-29-2002, 09:15 PM

Omarthefish:

I didn't say you were waiting 10 years to use Hung Gar effectively in that past. I was asking why your sifu is getting you to wait 10 years before learning tiet sin form.

It than raises the question as to whether sifu should be teavhing the form according to ability / intensiveness of training rather than just the leangth of memebership a student has been at his school.

I gave the example of someone training once a week versus 4 times a week.

Since you seem so proud to have waited this long (before learning the form) perhaps you could provide us with the reasons as to why 10 is such a magical number. Why not 20, 50 or even 150 years - skipping 2 generations in between?

I used to train in southern kung fu for a period until I discovered the northern styles were vastly superior. I trained in a number of northern styles such as Tai-chi, Baji, Hsing I and a bit of mantis. That was before I met with a motorvehicle accident that took away the use of my legs. If you read my posts closely, I do talk about my training background from time to time. I haven't posted my training background in my profile.

omarthefish

11-30-2002, 01:14 AM

perhaps you could provide us with the reasons as to why 10 is such a magical number.

Not a magic number. An armbitrary number. Pulled out of a hat. I rough average based on my observations at the school where I trained. I later mentioned in more recent years a few have learned after 7 or 8 years.

I'm not exactly 'proud' to have waited but I guess I do take pride in not rushing through the forms. I'm a little jealous of my classmates, some of them my juniors, who are learning tit sinm while I'm here in China. But then, I have learned certain things from my Sifu that they haven't. The curriculum is flexible.

It's not always the talent/dedication of the student either. Sometimes you learn a weapon just because somebody else is learning another weapon and there's nobody to train the two man set with him. Sometimes Sifu just seem like he get's an urge to teach somebody a form nobody's learned in a while.

There has been no waiting around dumbly sitting in a horse for 45 minutes untill Sifu feels we've 'earned' the right to learn something. I've been busy there. There's just a lot to learn and in the 7 or 8 years of 2 or 3 classes a week, I never learned it. On the other hand none of my shixiong back in the states know xiaobaji or dabaji and only a couple of the real seniors know any Bagua so it all evens out in the end.