No matter what side your own,( concern Erle Moontagu an article) let facts talk pleas

[dre_doggX]

Hi I know some like myself like him, some dont. I dont agree with everything he said, and thats o.k. Whether you like him or not this will be interesting, you my see it as humbling or gloryfing, but I just see it as an experience of his I could learn from.

read this article. Responed then I will give my response

http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/changend.htm

[Shadow Dragon]

Good Article.

Makes you think about what is out there.

To be honest not that different from what we try to achieve where I train.

"9 Pearls on a string" come to mind.
Connected, but yet still loose.

Soong does not equal relaxed, problem with translation from Chinese to Western Culture.

Also agree that people should go to different classes and styles to see and learn about the principles of TJQ.

This are the principles underlying all styles and not the style specific principles that so many people harp on about.

Eg.: Chen is not following Yang principles therefor Chen is not true TJQ or any other combination thereof.

Cheers.

[blacktaoist]

Hey, Why worry yourself with what most of these KFO members think about Erle Moontagu skill level. For one, most of these people up here are hiding behind a P.S. Always talking $hit but never put themself some where to be find. This just show how much a coward theses people are.

If you like Erle Moontagu, I see nothing wrong with that. Better then getting unpractical information from the man, like most people are getting today from fake ass internal teachers today.

[guohuen]

I liked it. I thought it was a good article. I heard the term loose boxing about 27 years ago the first time. I'm starting to understand.

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by blacktaoist
For one, most of these people up here are hiding behind a P.S. BT, what is 'P.S.'? And where can I find you?

[blacktaoist]

P.C.-personal computer

I can be found uptown manhattan 103 area- If you like to meet up just e-mail me.

Peace
BT

[Ye Gor]

ok, I'll keep it in mind. Not likely though: Boulder's here, NY's over there.

Also... I saw another post where you said you're going to China. My Chen tj teacher lives in Jinan, Shandong province (1 hour flight from Beijing). He's not into hitting, he's into locking and breaking joints, old style Chen. He's not above teaching a westener applications, if approached right. His teacher was (now deceased) Hong Junsheng, a disciple of Chen Fa Ke. But... he speaks basically no English. His name is Li En Jiu, you can ask your BaGua teacher from Beijing about him.

If you're interested, I could call him to see if he's available during that time. Here's some info on Master Hong (http://home.epsb.net/~jchen/articles.htm)

Peace
Yegor

[Shadow Dragon]

Yegor.

Thanks, for sharing that link.

What style Chen style did/do you study?

I am doing Xiao Jia and the article fits 100% with what I am taught.

Cheers.

P.S.: If everything goes ok, I should be in Chen Village next year in May.
:D

[Ye Gor]

S.D., not sure how to answer that question. It's "traditional Chen", whatever that means. I study from Li Enjiu in Jinan, PRC, and Joseph Chen (his kungfu brother) in Edmonton. Their teacher was Hong Junsheng, who was disciple of Chen Fake (I assume you know who that is). I also learned some stuff from Mike Sigman, who is a student of Chen Xiaowang (you've heard of him, right?) Chen X. and Hong put the emphasis on fundamentally different things. I practice Hong's way mostly and keep the other in mind. "Hong's style of Chen", if you want to call it that, is not known much outside of Shandong. Although Li Enjiu has taught in Japan (don't know when or where).

Chen Village? My advise to you: bring your own toilet paper and diarhea medicine, don't put not-boiled water in your mouth (even when brushing teeth, rinse toothbrush with boiled or bottled water). If you eat grapes, they're either not washed or washed with regular water, so in the end there's no escape from it. Gets me every time after a week or so. Oh, and bring muscle/ligament medicine (Chinese); they like to hold the stance for a loooong time, it'll take its toll after several days (maybe knee, maybe thigh, maybe groin muscle... SOMETHING usually gives after a while).

[Walter Joyce]

For an explanation of the different "styles" of chen see this website:

http://www.digidao.com/nhomeN.htm


There are five major divisions of Chen Style Taijiquan.

Lao Jia

Xin Jia

Xiao Jia

Zhaobao Jia

Hu Lei Jia


And Mike Sigman freely states that he does not study taiji, but rather the internal strength methods or jin development methods included in taiji.

FWIW

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by Walter Joyce
the internal strength methods or jin development methods included in taiji. Not simply 'included', by specifically 'the basis of' taiji. In other words, if you're not doing those principles when you're doing taiji... then you're not doing taiji, just some movements that on the outside look like taiji. 'Empty' taiji. Opinions vary.

Thanks for the info, Walter.

[woliveri]

Hey Ye Gor,
I learned a Chen Taiji form from Li En Jiu a great while a go. How did you connect with him? Where did you train with him? China or U.S.? Do you have some contact information?


Also,
Since your in Boulder, do you know David Simeone?

[Shadow Dragon]

Ye Gor.

Thanks for the Info.
Chen Fake did Xin Jia..
Chen Xiao Wang does Lao Jia.
Both are not in my direct lineage.

I will ask Chen Peishan when and where Li Enjiu taught over here.

There is quiet a bit of Chen taught over here and we get plenty of Visitors from the Village.

Cheers.

[Walter Joyce]

Ye Gor,

You are absolutely correct, I stand corrected.

[Water Dragon]

Joyce would choke Earl Montaigue

[Ye Gor]

Wolivery, I connected with Li Enjiu through Master Chan. I was in WahLum then and took the seminars in Orlando. Some years later I went 100% taiji and went to see Master Li in China, again with MC's help. I saw him several times since then, in China, US and last time in Canada. He couldn't get a visa to US last time he tried. Yes, I do have contact information. If you want it, email me and I'll email you. Or, if you want to pass a message, my wife speaks Chinese and I could call him. (I should do it soon, anyhow.)

David Simeone, the Mountain Man. Yes, I visited with him a couple of times, he's got land in the mountains, above Cannon (sp?) City. Grizzly Adams / Mantis Dave kind of thing. But we haven't been in touch for a couple of years.


Walter, no biggie. It's just that Mike has a very strong opinion about that, I didn't want to mis-represent. But I'm not his spokesman, so I'll shut up about that.


Shadow Dragon, yes, please do that. I'd like to know if Mr.Li is known much outside of PRC, and by who. Thanks.

[woliveri]

Ye Gor,

Are you in any of these pictures?

http://members.bigvalley.net/wuji/LiEnJao1small.jpg
http://members.bigvalley.net/wuji/LiEnJao2small.jpg

[Ye Gor]

Holy cow, that was way back when.
Lower right and upper left.
Anyway, what year was that?

[woliveri]

I'm not sure but I went to China in 85 and then went up north to work when I got back. I came back that fall so maybe this is 86? Maybe ArtD can give a more definate date.

How much does Li En Jiu charge in China for instruction? Does he provide housing?

Thanks,

[Walter Joyce]

Thread leakage! Yikes!!!

;)

[Ye Gor]

wolivery, where are you in the photos?

Last time Mr. Li charged me for lessons was 4 years ago. It was $10 per hour. 5 hours per day (2 after breakfast, 3 after the afternoon nap). My guess is he would charge a little more now, maybe $15. But maybe not... I'd have to ask him.

No boarding is provided. Mr. Li will probably put you into a hotel that has license to host foreigners, is reasonably good and not too expensive. I paid $30 for the room and $20 for all the food I could possibly eat (that is to say, for $20 per day they brought me more dishes than any person could eat - breakfast, lunch, dinner.)

Jinan is hot in the summer and cold in the winter. If you're curious, I put a travelog of my trip on the web: http://members.tripod.com/~PrimeMaterial/china_trip_81.htm, it has more details about the school and the accomodations and just the whole experience.

Out of the 5 hours per day, Mr. Li doesn't teach all the time. About half that time I spent with Mr. Du, his senior student. I think Mr. Li will teach whatever you want, I was only interested in basics and the first form. But if you want applications or push-hands, that's fine. They do their push hands kinda rough and it includes neck grabbing and tripping and I saw some scrapes on guys' neck from unintenional contact. For example, Mr. Du is a 5-time all-China gold medalist in push hands in his weight division. (ok, that was a plug, I admit. but this seems like a good opportunity to promote my teacher :)

[omarthefish]

Ye Gor,

20$ for all you can eat ? ! I should hope so ! I live in Xi'an where . . . let's see . . . 20$ = about 165 yuan . . . one decent meal at an average restaurant = about 8-10 yuan (including beer). Breakfast typically = 2 yuan. I couldn't spend more than 5$ a day on food if I tried.

Diarreah . . . I've actually lived here long enough that I stopped getting the runs. ( the worst of it ends after about 3 months. after a year, it only happens if you eat to much hot pot in the night market. )

For short term the 30$/a night approved for foreigners hotel is o.k. On a longer term basis you can rent a huge apartment for about 100$/month.

If anyone is not averse to paying the kind of money you mentioned, I could hook you up with a couple of the top guys in china. Paying monthly, not hourly. Private lessons.

[Ye Gor]

Yes $20 / day for food is luxurious in China.

That was eating at a great restaurant right in the hotel.
This was an easy (albeit expensive) way to make sure the American (me) was fed well, in a clean environment, without someone taking me to a 10-yuan place every lunch and dinner. I'm sure that's where the local eat, but not speaking the language and in a strange city... I was ok with it.

I have tried the 10-yuan (about a buck and a quarter) places in Shanghai. I thought it was just fine, plenty of good food and a real 'Chinesey' atmosphere. However, ALL the Chinese were extremely surprised that a foreigner would eat at a place like that, instead of a nice restaurant. Just like they were surprised that I would not mind riding in the cheapest of taxis (the little yellow buses). They have some pre-conceived notions about Americans in China, especially if you're a professional (like engineer or teacher or something similar).

Where is Xi'an? If you don't mind me asking, why do you live in China and how long have you lived there? Do you speak Chinese? (I'll be moving to China in a couple of years myself, so am very curious about westerners who live there.) BTW, '3 months for the worst of it to pass'... that sucks! I thought 2 weeks was bad enough.

[woliveri]

Ye Gor,
In the first picture I'm in the back left next to Tom Hass. In the second picture I'm kneeling down on the far right pretending I have a chest, right in front of Jason.

Omarthefish,
I see from your profile your doing Baji. Are you learning that In Xi'an? I was in Xi'an in 85 for a day or two. Saw the Terra Cotta warriors. Very cool. Xi'an was the Ancient capital of China. I also am interested in how you can stay in China for so long. Where are you originally from (country, state, city)? I'm learning Chinese now and would love to stay over there for a long period of time.

Thanks,

[ddh]

Love the moves of living masters. They often tweek the minds of their students to see things differently. Erle's story represents the best type of approach to Taichi Chuan. To be Taichi is different than trying to do Taichi. Love it!
Here's the rub. Where Erle's teacher started in this art is probably the same place that most of us started. Many traditional Taichi people build physical strength to make movement easy for the internal. The process has many levels. The internal takes time and if you don't keep at it - you lose it. :D

[les paul]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Joyce would choke Earl Montaigue

Water dragon.......


It's been so long since I came to your little cyber sand box, so long in fact I'd forgotten my password.

And What do I find......"My quote being used as one of your monograms!"



Awsome!


I love it!




What's it been.........at least a year ?

I must have gotten under your skin real good!

I'd forgotten I'd ****ed you off. Looks like you must have lost a lot of sleep! What a joke. This is funny, man.............! Sweet!

Dude your making me laugh!


Thanks for the Friday night cheese!


Hah hahh hahhh !

Maybe I'll check back in another year for another laugh........ till then.

Thanks Dude!

:D

[omarthefish]

Ye Gor,

Sorry I'm so slow on the response. I didn't notice the questions.

Where is Xi'an? If you don't mind me asking, why do you live in China and how long have you lived there? Do you speak Chinese?

Xi'an is in Shaanxi. It is most famous for the terra cotta warriors found near the tomb of the first emperor of China. I came to live in China to improve my Chinese and to be able to study gong-fu closer to the source. Yes. My Chinese is good enough that on the phone I am sometimes mistaken for a southern chinese or an american born Chinese.

woliveri,
I see from your profile your doing Baji. Are you learning that In Xi'an? . . .how you can stay in China for so long. Where are you originally from (country, state, city)? I'm learning Chinese now and would love to stay over there for a long period of time.

Yes. I am learning BAJI ! from a disciple of Zhang Xiangwu. I am teaching english here to support myself. I came here from San Francisco. Good luck with the Chinese studies. I recomend spending less time studying before you come over. If you come over with a little savings and enroll in a Chinese program for foreigners at a local language school you will learn chinese WAY faster than you caould at home.

The hardest part of a long term stay for me is the extreme difficulty in finding people who can look past your passport and become true friends.

Omar

[Water Dragon]

;)