BJJ in a street situation

[Ryu]

The following story appears on Richard Dimitri's senshido site and deals with a true story about BJJ in a multiple attacker situation.

I am posting this because I think its important to understand first that BJJ does indeed have limitations as a martial art as just about any art does these days. This post is NOT to start flame wars back and forth between grapplers and stand up people, and it's also NOT to have a bunch of people rush over and say BJJ has no merit in the street either. (The truth remains that grappling is a need that has to be realistically addressed, and that I still believe that grappling can be used effectively in some, but not all, street encounters. I have personally used grappling skill in self-defense on more then one occasion, but my training now is geared towards all ranges of combat as well as many of the psychological aspects of self-defense that people like Rich Dimitri have been addressing for years.

Hopefully this story will spark INTELLIGENT posts, and bring both strikers and grapplers together to understand the realities of self-defense and the fact that much more goes into intelligent self-defense then simply knowing how to punch, kick, and grapple.
You must know how to react, what to look for, how to control the environment, your adrenaline, etc.

So without further ado, here is
Rich Dimitri's story.

From Rich Dimitri's "Senshido" site.
*sigh* The stubbornness of some people...

An acquaintance of mine who's been studying BJJ for over 5 years recently got into a fight. He spent 2 days in the hospital after, and is actually quite upset I am writing this about him but he can go f@#$ himself. I promised him I wouldn't mention his name or where he's from or anything of the sort so, like in every other confrontation analysis that we write, let's call him John.

A little background:

John's been studying BJJ since 1997. I'm not sure what level or belt he's reached but he's won several grappling tournaments where he's from. He and I discussed the proficiency of his art on the streets (as usual) and we both had a mutual respect for one another even though we both strongly disagreed on the subject. He was convinced, like so many others that his grappling background was sufficient to defend himself on the streets regardless of what I said to him about the pre contact psychology, weapons, multiples etc. I agree with him that he had a major advantage over the majority of the population out there and told him "John, you're only as good as who you fight. You don't want to win a fight because your opponent sucks, you want to win a fight because you're the superior fighter." In one ear out the other...

Well, karma has a way of dealing with things and fortunately, although he spent a couple of days in the hospital, he wasn't severely injured thank God.

John got into an altercation in a club with a couple of guys while waiting on some friends to join him. There was the obligatory posturing, pushing and shoving until the bouncers threw them all out. So John found himself against 2 guys just outside the Club. The fight continued outside and once John was shoved, he clinched and took one of the 2 guys down nice and hard and went for a half mount (knee on chest with one foot on the ground) and he began to ground and pound the guy. Well, his friend tackled John hard off his buddy and he ended up in John's guard. The guy went ballistic trying to punch John but John redirected him well, however, John had his back to the pavement which was tearing up his back pretty bad. He couldn't let the guy out of his guard because the guy's friend was back on his feet and trying to kick in John's head. John managed to take few kicks to the head but a few got in which broke his cheekbone. He continued evading the kicks to the best of his ability and exchanged punches with the individual in his guard (who took the brunt of them) but didn't knock him out. John's hand broke after the repetitive punches to the head he was giving the guy in his guard. Moments later, John's friends showed up and broke up the fight, John stood up to continue but the 2 other guys who were now outnumbered took off.

Result? John suffered the following:

1. Broken knuckle
2. Severe cuts and scrapes on his back and elbows from the pavement (little pebbles and rocks were wedged into his skin as his T-shirt ripped while maneuvering himself on the ground with his opponent on top of him)
3. A fractured cheekbone and black eye from the kicks to the face.

Could have been worse if his opponents were armed.

His opponents were not subdued or put out of commission, if his friends hadn't showed, I suspect he might have suffered worse damage. I asked John why he didn't put a submission hold on the guy in the guard and he said he couldn't, the guy was going balistic on him and he was too preocupied with the other guy trying to soccer kick his head in. Interesting...

Now before the internet warriors jump the gun and get into the "what THEY would have done" you have to understand that the presence of emotion, adrenaline and stress are huge factors to physical manifestations. Like it or not. It's the truth. John himself was very ****ed off and immediately got into the "I should have, could have" mode but the fact is, he didn't. Tony Blauer said that in a real fight, experience is something you get shortly after you need it. Very true and John can attest to that fact.

He asked me what I would have done and I gave him my time honored reply "It depends". Suffice it to say that I have survived a 5 on 1 armed attacker situation without hitting the ground once (I have the scars to prove it) my opponents were all hospitalized and some of them will forever feel the seasons change. Several of my students have survived several multiple attacker situations without ever hitting the ground once. One of my guys not only defeated but hospitalized 5 guys in front of 2 cops when he was attacked at an intersection. His record can prove it.

John's mistakes? Posturing instead of defusing. No psychological set ups. Going to the ground in a multiple attacker situation. Punching to the face. Repeatedly. Ignoring environment. Being 'enslaved' by his style... His BJJ repertoire did not contain the necessary tools and strategies for this particular situation and so he was limited by the faction of his style.

Someone on some forum (I can't remember who or where or I would credit the source) said that if you are not trained in the 4 ranges, you are a 'partial artist'. I love that, a 'partial artist'... it's so true. I would like to add the following: If you are not proficient in all ranges including Pre contact Psychology, fear management, tactical awareness, post contact strategy, then you are a 'partial artist'.

Remember:

"You're only as good as who you fight." Senshido Adage

"Don't win because your opponent sucked, win because you were superior to your opponent." Senshido Adage

Train intelligently and diligently.


Rich







Senshido © Copyright 1994-2002

[Shadow Dragon]

Ryu.

Thanks, good story.

It shows what happens when you are overconfident in your own ability.

As for the 4 ranges, In Okinawa the refer to it as the 4 corners of the circle.
(longish explanation)

And say the very same thing, that unless you are trained in all of them your fighting skills are not complete.

Problem is that most MA training today is not geared more towards competition and sparring than actual fighting.

Many attributes/skills needed in a real fight are either neglected or never trained.

Thanks again for sharing.

Cheers.

[rubthebuddha]

aye. i don't think this is a flaw in BJJ. better BJJ people would have handled this better. the guy just didn't handle it as well as he should have and paid for it.

BUT, the author brings up a point. the BJJ guy in the story, even though getting into the fight in the first place was moronic, he at least was able to stay decent against two attackers, until his buddies showed. his injuries are very small and minor compared to what they could have been. a single kick to the head can mean he wouldn't be able to tell you the story at all -- either because his face is too ruined, he's disabled from damage to that part of his brain, or he's just dead.

but it's back to the author's intent. the feeling i'm left with is that the author second-guesses BJJ as an art (of course, while promoting his own). however, this is ONE instance of a person who didn't do well, not a survey of dozens or hundreds of cases in which BJJ failed (good luck finding them).

the article's big problem? it wrongly associates the loss to BJJ's possible inadequacy, and doesn't point the finger at the loser's own ability.

besides, royce would have choked all three of them out.

[Nichiren]

The exactly same happened to my friend this weekend. I almost thought it was him until I read about the broken wrist. My friend ended up on the ground with a 200 pound boxer and had good control until the boxers friends(2) started kicking the $hit out of him. He broke his nose and a cheekebone? He also got blood in his urine because of mutliple kicks to the sides and back. Hadn't people stoped the fight he probably would have suffered much worse.

My friend is an acomplished wrestler and JiuJitsu practioner and benchpresses close to 400 pounds but he had no chance against these guys.

/Peace

[Ryu]

Interesting points, and a few I agree with too, Rub. ("Arts" losing becomes rather silly in situations like these, however, there is still aspects of an arts "prefered range" etc. that might get its practitioner into some trouble depending on what's going on... etc.)

I promised Rich too that I would stick to my own guns here (which I always do anyway.) Keep in mind that a big part of Rich's arsenal IS in fact BJJ .... and catch-as-can wrestling, Muay Thai, boxing, JKD, and some of his own stuff. Much of his workouts really resemble NHB down to the needle, but he spends a lot of time talking about psychological aspects of street defense, adrenaline management, environmental awareness, first strike principles, escape tactics, weapons, selected semantics, scenario drilling, etc.
So he mixes the MMA in with more psychological stuff. It's a unique blend.
As far as his "agenda" with the article promoting "his stuff" (instead of just making a point about the BJJ tough guys, etc.) well I don't know. I'll let him say what he needs to there.

My stance is (and has always been) that fights and self-defense are constantly evolving and changing from the get go. I do believe grappling is essential for being able to fight. I do believe you can be successful by using grappling skill in real fights, but I also believe that there are situations that it's just not suited for. Just like there are situations where "striking" is just not suited for.
This is why being very good at ranges is very important...
The article does show what can go wrong if one solely relies on physical prowess in all fight situations, and not on awareness, de-escalation, surprise attacks, being aware of multiples, etc.

P.s. I've fought 2 people before in a real self-defense situation, and used BJJ..... and won. ;) A lot of it was pretty hairy! And I went through all four ranges on that night.... punching, kicking, clinching, and grappling.

I would not want to tangle with 2-3 skilled fighters at once..... I have my doubts about the reality of taking on lots of people at once UNLESS they're of much less skill then you OR you attack quickly, knock people down, and get the hell out of dodge without looking back. Again that's me.

Ryu

[rubthebuddha]

ryu,

i could have just said "it comes down to the person using the art, not the art itself" and kept it at that, but i had to ramble my way through it.

i'll just say that a really skilled bjj could have broken something off attacker number one and left him limp and sore while moving onto attacker number two. a simple shoulder lock/break takes but a quick second, so break that shoulder and throw him away and move onto attacker two.

but still, choking them both out would be cool.

[Merryprankster]

Agree with the idea that submitting would have been nice.

I'll vote for the sweep and bail option though :D

I agree with the general concensus that this is more about one person's abilities and awareness, although the author tries to make it an indictment of the art itself.

I would suggest that MOST styles don't incorporate much fight psychology. They address ways of fighting, but don't necessarily teach you to keep your head.

A side note--the BJJer got taken down. Happens to the best of us. Pure speculation, but how bad might it have been if he DIDN'T have any clue down there.

Shudder.

[Ford Prefect]

Good story. It reminds me of what happenned to my old roommate a couple years ago:

He was in a Store 24 at abou 1am. Some guys came in being stupid and rude, so he of course was a dumbbass and chided them for it. When he's leaving the store, they are waiting for him. One guy charges him and knock him off balance to the ground. He puts that guy in his guard. He said he was just about to tear off his arm when one his buddies soccer kicks him in the face. To make a long story short, they pounded him good. No broken bones, but his face looked like that kid from the movie Mask. (the one with Cher) Ground grappling has it's place, but I think that it is limitted when speaking of self defense.

[TjD]

it sounds like from what he was up against, and what he had to fight with, that the guy did rather well

he coulda had his brains smashed in

the worst part is i'm guessing he could have avoided the fight altogether

[Former castleva]

Please forgive me if you find this offending as I´m having a lousy day but I almost knew this is going to turn on the speculation process-"well if he were to do it good,he´d practitioner X,his art X X x..."
It was probably a hard situation,and whether he was foxtrot bushi jitsu or karate-doka it would have been that.
If this helps to calm down some people fanatic about certain styles,then it´s allright but besides...
Oh well I´m speculating too.
:)

[Shadowboxer]

This was told to me by one of my Kungfu brothers about a guy we both know, his friend who I've met recently, so take it for what it's worth. It's halloween night and "John's" girlfriend is outside the bar waiting for him. Some random girl(s) start talking sh*t to her. A guy that was with random girls starts talking sh*t as well. John exits the bar to find people talking sh*t to his girl. He shoves the guy, puts the guy in a headlock and takes him to the ground. (Forgot to mention John has a year of BJJ training) He controls the situation but then makes a mistake - and this reminds me of Ryu's training with the knife where he took his mind off the "blade" for long enough to get him cut. "John" starts talking sh*t back to the guy he's controlling, something like," Is that all you can do?" Next thing you know, random guy's buddy kicks John in the head. The tables turn and he's got 2 guys stomping on him. Luckily, he wasn't severly hurt just got his face bruised and swollen pretty good, black eyes, etc. He didn't consider the fact that this guy might have friends before he started talking sh*t. So... I don't know. I guess if you do go the ground by choice or not ,break something, sweep, whatever and get back up to your feet, don't just stall. Again, this is just hearsay and I'm sure I didn't get all of the details but...

[Water Dragon]

John got the takedown.
John was about to beat the $hit out of one guy from a mobile dominant position.
John got kicked by the other guy.

It could (and would) happen to anyone.

[Dragon Warrior]

IMO, he should never have clinched and brought the one guy to the ground. This is obviously what left him open to get jumped the way he did.

The reason i have learned ground fighting is to defend myself when i have to go to the ground. I do not want to bring the fight to the ground for the obvious reasons.

The funny thing is, the best way to keep fights standing up is to learn grappling. But anyway, it is super hard to fight two people when you are standing, on the ground, forget about it.

Moral of the lesson, dont bring fights in the street to the ground unless you have to. If you are on your feet, at least you can move around and run if needed, this is so important ecspecially when fighting in the street when multiple attackers and weapons can come into play.

I am in no way criticising bjj, wrestling or judo, or any of the grappling arts. I personally love grappling, but there are times to use it, and times not to. In a situation like above, the best way to use grappling skill is to use your takedown ability to keep the fight standing up.

[KC Elbows]

First off, please read the first story again. The guy wasn't taken to the ground. He took someone to the ground. Shouldn't happen to the best of us. Should have done stand up. He chose to be there.

Then, he got kicked in the head hard enough to break his cheek. It does not say he got kicked in the head once, it says he avoided most of the kicks. So he probably got kicked in the head several times.

And, frankly, I'm not calling it a flaw in bjj, but it is definitely not its strong suit either. This fight should have been stand up, or, more intelligently, not have happened at all. Frankly, this wasn't self defense, it sound more like a stupid fight against untrained people in groups. And, since it wasn't avoided, why the heck did he go to the ground? If he wasn't experienced in a stand up art, could it possibly be because he needed to go to the ground to have a chance?

As an aside, the people saying how easy such and such move would be might want to consider that people getting thrown out of clubs for fighting are rarely sober.

As for 'John', he did not realize there were friends, he did not make sure he could not be outnumbered, and he got in the fight anyway. 'John' is just lucky there were no knives.

People who think barfights are a good test of their martial arts need to drink less. That's what these stories tell me.

These stories say nothing about bjj, other than make sure that you are not alone and outnumbered when you go to the ground, which is common sense anyway. Reinterpreting the stories so that these guys are anything but oblivious to their surroundings is not intellectually honest, much as I feel their pain. Both ended up on the ground and kicked in the head in fights they didn't even have to be in. Big cheer.

Wow, that was my grumpiest post ever.:D

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
He shoves the guy, puts the guy in a headlock and takes him to the ground. (Forgot to mention John has a year of BJJ training)

If "John" had been training BJJ for a year, why would he put someone in a headlock? A headlock is one of the first things you learn not to do in BJJ. It is also the one of the first things an experienced BJJ’er spots about a someone with little or no BJJ knowledge. Hmmm.....

Also got to wonder about the validity of Dimitri's story. He's been conversing regularly for quite some time with an experienced BJJ guy about the validity of BJJ in the street. He also is supposedly quite knowledgeable about BJJ. But he calls the knee ride the half mount? Hmmm....

[Water Dragon]

D.W. Knowing BJJ's not going to suddenly make you not be able to run anymore. If the guy wanted to run, he could run. He chose to fight. Pretty much any art would've lost the ability to run at this point as well. Look at the post again:

Two guys were starting $hit, John could've ran at this point and didn't

John took the first guy down, he could've ran at this point and didn't.

Once John got walloped hard, he couldn't run. Neither could you, neither could I. BJJ's just as good as any other solid matial art (no better, no worse) John had actually successfully used the art, but then wanted to do a little more. He got his @ss handed to him as a result. It wasn't the art, it was the attitude that did him in. I'd take BJJ over a lot of fighting systems. For the record, I'm not a BJJ guy, but I respect it. It has the same goal as my art, we just use different tools to achieve it.

[Dragon Warrior]

Well lets look at it like this

who has a better chance of winning a fight against multiple opponents. Royce Gracie or Vanderlie Silva. Royce Gracie would problably clinch up, bring the fight to the floor and end up getting kicked in the head. Silva would probably throw one rear leg roundhouse to one guy's thigh and drop him on his ass.

Like i said, he should never have went for a takedown, ecspecially one where you fall to the floor with the guy. He knew he was fighting 2 guys, how can you possibly do that on the floor. It's hard enough standing up.

I think you get what i am saying. If you dont then you never will.

[Water Dragon]

But there's no guarantee the roundhouse would drop the guy either. If it doesn't, the fight is still going on and there's a few more seconds for $hit to go wrong. Neither art has an "advantage" here. they're both good and both will have a similar result. Even with my Shuai Chiao, there's no guarantee I wont go down WITH the guy when I throw him. There's also no guarantee the first throw will work.

Do you see where I'm coming from? A good BJJ guy can have you out of commision in about 6 seconds. I've been there. Just because they do it on the gorund, and just because NHB fights take a long time, doesn't mean much of anything in real life.

[Mumbles]

"If "John" had been training BJJ for a year, why would he put someone in a headlock? A headlock is one of the first things you learn not to do in BJJ. It is also the one of the first things an experienced BJJ’er spots about a someone with little or no BJJ knowledge. Hmmm.....

Also got to wonder about the validity of Dimitri's story. He's been conversing regularly for quite some time with an experienced BJJ guy about the validity of BJJ in the street. He also is supposedly quite knowledgeable about BJJ. But he calls the knee ride the half mount? Hmmm...."

Note that the grapplers in these "streetfight" stories never seem to have names, ranks, or affiliations either. I've never heard of the "half mount" myself. This generic grappler apparently won the famous "grappling championship" too. The story mysteriously demonstrates every negative point about grappling made by the "combative" crowd as well. The bjjer was arrogant, voluntarily went to the ground, couldn't handle multiple opponents, got torn up by concrete, had no common sense, etc. Also, Dimitri, by mentioning that the grappler would not want him to tell anyone, relieves himself of having to provide any verification for this story whatsoever, not even giving the names of the events this generic grappler won.

As others have mentioned, this mysterious grappler's lack of common sense and smacktalking caused the incident more than anything else. Does this Dimitri give seminars on how to not talk **** and be an *******? I would have thought that sort of thing was common sense, but apparently it can be taught as "deescalation tactics".

People also don't seem to realize that attempting to outstrike multiple opponents can get you in just as much trouble as going to the ground. Do people really think that you can't be blindsided or hurt by multiple attackers when attempting to strike? Does anyone know how hard it is to keep a fight against multiple opponents standing, especially if any of these opponents has any wrestling experience or if your attackers are larger than you? I am not advocating immediately going to the ground on the street, but the combative crowd makes it sound easy to just disable multiple attackers with strikes and run. It really isn't that easy to knock somebody out.

Finally, Dimitri is basically responding to a question that nobody asked. Everyone who does bjj knows that it has shortcomings, which is where crosstraining comes in. His point of "bjj is not invincible" has been said and demonstrated many times already. His real point of promoting his own system comes at the end where he offhandedly mentions how he has defeated and hospitalized multiple attackers 5 times. Like his "grappler" story and all other "street" stories told by the combative types, this claim of success against multiple opponents can't be verified. Like all of these "street lethal" experts that we continuously see peddling their videos, he insinuates that he is a streetfighting expert because he knows that this claim cannot be tested. He claims streetfighting rather than sportfighting experience because he knows that such "experience" cannot be verified. Overall this article is just another version of the typical "bjj won't work in the street, but my system will" claim that we see in all MA mags.

[Xebsball]

First off i'd like to declare that Ryu's act of posting this on this forum was unwise and irresponsible. It should belong to the Other Arts forum, and he knows that very well, he seems like an inteligent young man after all.

Now back to the thread... it doesnt teach me anything that i or the majority of the members of this board didnt know:
1) multiple oponents are a *****, but winning on them with a grappling aproach is harder than winning with a striker's aproach.
2) to strike you need to have your weapons conditoned for it - that includes training with bare hands and hitting hard things with bare hands among other things. People that train with gloves all the time, then one day they have to hit without gloves - bang! -> broken knucles, hands, or whatever.

Also,
As a generic side note (not aimed at this specific thread or inspired by it, trust me) i would apreciate from the "mma experts", from non chinese styles, who hang out on this chinese styles forum to please bring us something new other than the same old same old "you should do mma" talk. Not that i think you should satisfy my speciffic requests, and not that all of you act like this, but just that it gets stupid to see people posting the same repetitive arguments over and over pointing out to how much "we all need to learn grappling to be realistc blah blah" -> sometimes you sound like trying to "convert us to your religion", if you know what i mean.

[Xebsball]

Just as a second side note, i dont do bjj but i do know for sure that there is indeed such thing called half guard, its "meia guarda" in portuguese. I wouldnt know how its performed... that discussion of weather the move described on the story was or not really a half guard i will leave to you.

[KC Elbows]

Uhmmm...'John' didn't get jacked because he got ****y, despite what the story says. John got jacked because he didn't know what was around him., and he didn't have the sense to know that no one was covering his back. He got jacked because he accepted a fight on someone else's turn, and that's not smart.

BTW, the whole argument that gloves are the reason peoples hands get broken doesn't necessarily hold out. Old time boxers didn't use gloves. They just punched to the face less. No gloves didn't prevent the problem of broken hands for them. Perhaps a bit of an argument for conditioning.

All these two stories suggest is that going out and searching for trouble will usually produce it. Also, it suggests that people who go to the ground despite the presence of further opponents are gonna get kicked to the head. And fights usually happen around bars.

Now, if others want to make conclusions about whole martial arts based completely off of anecdotal stories that all happen outside of liquor selling meathouses, well, that's fine.

Ryu is an evil troll.

[Water Dragon]

Not really Xebs. Of course you're going to think a striking approach is better, you're a Xing Yi guy. I happen to believe that chucking someone on their melon or slamming their back into a fire hydrant is the most efficient way to deal with someone, multiple or not. But that's what I do. That's where my time is invested.

A BJJ guy will say his art is the best as will a Thai Boxer because HEY!!, that's where their time is invested. Nobody's right here, and nobody's wrong either.

[KC Elbows]

I'm right! They got kicked in the head because they weren't aware! This has NOTHING to do with style.

[LEGEND]

JOHN character made a very crucial mistake...he decided to FIGHT instead of being AWARE. From the description he was fighting to WIN against more than one person. WTF??? It's hard enuf beating one guy...much less two. He should have just taken the guy down and kick the guy in the HEAD while the guy was getting up while being aware of other opponents. Regarding...Richard Dimitri post...I am well aware of his attitude toward grappling in the streets along with Blauer and Sammy Franco. I think these are great guys...and have a lot of knowledge but I'm more into the MATT THORNTON framework of fighting. Not everyone can good in STANDUP FIGHTING.

[Xebsball]

MOST people CAN, with PROPER training.

:D :D :D :D

[Ryu]

"Ryu is an evil troll" :D Ouch KC. I don't post these kinds of things regularly. Because I know it's an old argument that no one likes to hear. I bring it up here only because I think you are right about evironmental awareness being the deciding factor in this (or any artist's) downfall.

I am a devoted grappler. Everyone knows that here. I have my doubts about defeating lots of people when you are by yourself. I have my doubts about a lot of "street stories" where BJJ is soundly defeated. :cool:

However, that being said, I am very interested in many of the things people like Rich, Demi Barbito, even Paul V talk about. Things like environmental awareness, adrenaline response, etc.
Going through some of the things I've been through recently... I've realized that "environmental awareness" is actually quite hard to do if you haven't trained for it...... even IF you've trained for it.
Telling someone, "Hey, go be environmentally aware in the street, Joe." doesn't do a whole lot. A lot of it IS common sense, but a lot of it is not. We have natural habits, etc. that can put us at great risk sometimes. In my journey of the martial arts, this is what I'm being drawn to now. However I still grapple hard, and spar hard. Because "sport" training (as a conditioning, experience gathering, physical application against resistence type of thing.) DOES coincide with "street" defense or whatever you want to call it. If you're not training with resistence, and someone fighting you back.... you're not training. That's my interpretation. (Obviously that doesn't include doing solo workouts, shadowboxing, etc. all that is needed too.)

As far as the "truth" of Rich's story. Well I've talked with him on many occasions, seen his training, spoken with him about these issues (including this very thread) and I have no evidence to suggest that he would lie about anything he says.
No I don't know for sure....(you can't get into people's heads) but for the most part he's always been pretty down to earth, polite, realistic, and professional.
However I do see the innate problems with trying to verify "street encounters" with "sport encounters." One has records, coverage, visual proof, etc. The other is for the most part hearsay.

Knowing about names, etc. you'd have to ask him.
I wouldn't have a problem naming names if these things happene to me, but I don't know the legal aspects of that in print, etc. anyway.

Also, I've seen his training, and it's definitly hardcore. And it's definitely NHB. Now, I haven't trained with him or his students so I can't give an opinion on how good an "NHB" program he has.... but from what I can see it looks pretty decent.
I've been involved with grappling and BJJ since around 1997-1998 so I feel I have a pretty good eye for what's good and what's not.
That being said, I don't claim that there are not grapplers that can't nullify some of the things I've seen trained there either.
That's just an objective observation.

All in all, my main point in posting this was to get some intelligent conversation going about the concept of self-defense involving much more than just physical skills. And if it does, how deep does it go, and what are the best ways of training such things.

So far it seems the thread has gotten a lot of professional and intelligent responses, so let's keep it that way.

I'm sorry for not posting it on Other Forums, but this is where most hang out. If you guys want to move it there, that would be okay.
Ryu

[TaoBoy]

It's all about ego. Once these fools drop the ego they will being avoiding conflicts like this. This is something that should be taught more. Ego is not a good thing in the world of self defence. Self defence is about making it home every night. It's not about who you beat up. Sheesh!

:rolleyes:

[old jong]

We all know that BJJ has some limitations like any other styles and I think it is a made up story.
I'm so tired of this endless and futile debate.

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by TaoBoy
It's all about ego. Once these fools drop the ego they will being avoiding conflicts like this. This is something that should be taught more. Ego is not a good thing in the world of self defence. Self defence is about making it home every night. It's not about who you beat up. Sheesh!

:rolleyes:

Nice post, and I agree 100%.

Too many people mistake "Self Defense" for "Self preservation".

Never mind that they think they now got a few yrs of studying and now they are bad-asses that can bad-mouth and strong-arm others.

Most of the good MA I met were very humble people and tend to try to stay out of trouble.

Also many experienced MA I know say that their study of MA has made them more peaceful as they realise how easy it is to hurt someone and it kinda scares them what they could do if they would loose control.

Seeya.

[LEGEND]

Taosboy hit it rite on the nail! This JOHN was looking to WIN...and it cost him a broken hand and cheek bone! The same could be said of a striker who decides to beat the hell out of one guy...unaware that the other guy SUCKER PUNCH him from behind! OUCH! Either way...same situation...being unaware...one thing about the SKATER vs. 4 guys video proof that this guy was AWARE enuf to not completely focus on one guy...and he kept moving. The older we get the less emphasis on WIN WIN WIN...it's more on OH SHIET OH SHIET OH SHIET! :)

[TaoBoy]

I keep saying - COMMON SENSE!!

Unfortunately it seems that common sense ain't all that common.

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by TaoBoy
I keep saying - COMMON SENSE!!

Unfortunately it seems that common sense ain't all that common.

Truer words can not be spoken.

Cheers.

[LEGEND]

I like SHADOW DRAGON post also! At a younger age I too use to have a mentality of using martial arts as a means to an end. The end being beating the crap out of an opponent ala the movies. I remember a few years back I came on this forum stating that I felt FEAR everytime I get into a NEAR FIGHT or REAL FIGHT situation nowadayz...did I lose my edge? Perhaps...I think with AGE comes the EGO LOST. U know longer identify the HIGH SCHOOL mentality of ONE ON ONE must have a victor! You recognize that ADULT BAR/CLUB fights are hardly ever ONE on ONE and u must fight to survive! Meaning if u drop the guy drop them...but don't finish them...cause the odds are in their favor!

[Lowlynobody]

People are either born with an ego or they are not. Could explain why when people interact stupid sh1t results.


Lowlynobody

[Shadow Dragon]

Legend.

For me the way I look at MA and fighting changed a lot when I got married and again when we got our Son.

When I was younger it was just me, now I got a Wife and Son to support.

I am just no longer willing to take the risk to get injured, get hospital bills, loose time fron my Job and Family.

At the same time by shifting my focus, I have discovered new and great things within my MA studies.

Like you said, maybe I lost my edge too. OTOH, I have been in fewer confrontations too.

Your MA needs to suit your lifestyle and not the other way round.

Cheers.